House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

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House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... nt/594940/
On Friday, the House Judiciary Committee dropped a bombshell: The committee’s Democrats are beginning an impeachment inquiry against the president of the United States. You could be forgiven if you didn’t notice.

Members of the committee majority, led by Chairman Jerry Nadler, crowded together in front of a lectern to unveil their next steps following the testimony Wednesday of former Special Counsel Robert Mueller. What began as an announcement of high-profile lawsuits building on that testimony quickly devolved into a confused back-and-forth with reporters as Nadler and his colleagues repeatedly insisted they were not beginning impeachment proceedings before admitting that, yes, they were basically doing just that.

“Impeachment isn’t a binary thing,” argued Representative Mary Gay Scanlon, the committee’s vice chair. “What we’ve been saying, what we’ve been doing, is starting a process. We’re engaging in an investigation to see if we should recommend articles of impeachment … We started it some months ago, in some ways.”

“The committee is exercising its authority to investigate all of these scandals and to decide what to do about them, which could include articles of impeachment,” said Nadler—though he also emphasized that this wasn’t the same as an impeachment inquiry: “If an impeachment inquiry is if you’re considering only impeachment, that’s not what we’re doing.”

Then again, Representative Jamie Raskin insisted, “I’d say we are in an impeachment investigation.” And in an opinion piece published in The Atlantic Friday evening, Scanlon and three other members of the Judiciary Committee—David Cicilline, Pramila Jayapal, and Veronica Escobar—declared, “We will move forward with the impeachment process.”

Just days before, the committee’s Democratic majority had questioned Mueller with rigor and clarity, driving home the key message: Donald Trump had committed acts of obstruction of justice, they chorused, and if he had not been the president, he would have been charged with a crime. The force of their arguments was self-evident. During the press conference, though, that clarity evaporated. In shuffling toward impeachment proceedings, the Democrats are starting, however hesitantly, to take up their constitutional responsibilities in the face of what they themselves recognize as the president’s continued abuses of power. But their hesitation strips away the moral clarity in defense of the rule of law that impeachment proceedings might otherwise have offered.

The Democratic leadership in the House of Representatives has test-driven a range of arguments against the initiation of an impeachment inquiry or outright impeachment itself. At first, before the release of the Mueller report, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisted that Trump is “just not worth it,” worrying that impeachment would divide the country. The president “wants to be impeached so he can be exonerated by the Senate,” she later suggested. Yet at the same time, she called his actions “villainous to the Constitution.”

The muddled nature of the Democratic position was on full display following Mueller’s testimony. At a press conference after Mueller’s testimony, Pelosi declared that Trump’s actions would have resulted in indictment had he not been president, and accused him of engaging in a “cover-up”—but she did not change her view on impeachment. Standing alongside her was House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, who that day had accused the president of criminal conduct and “disloyalty” to his country—but who, the next morning, suggested that he had not yet reached the point of supporting impeachment, though the president’s defiance of a court order might “push [him] over the edge.”

The basic message is that the movers and shakers among the House Democrats believe the president to be a criminal who is disloyal to his country and abusive of his office, and yet somehow his conduct is not quite bad enough to justify the constitutional remedy designed to address the problem posed by such a leader. Pelosi and Schiff have both argued that impeachment proceedings are too dire a remedy to use in a situation in which the Senate would fail to convict an impeached president. But this is a separate argument, and to some extent one at cross-purposes, from their hints that Trump’s actions so far just don’t rise to a level that warrants impeachment. There may be a clear, forceful line of logic somewhere in here, but the House leadership has instead dabbled in a range of arguments while committing to none.

Friday’s House Judiciary Committee press conference flipped that dynamic on its head. The committee is moving toward impeachment proceedings—or, perhaps, has already begun them—with the same confusion that characterizes Pelosi’s opposition to it.

There is a logic behind Nadler’s approach, clarified by the stated reason for convening the press conference in the first place: The committee announced that it had filed an application for a court to unseal grand-jury material contained in, but redacted from, the Mueller report. Such material is protected by law from release under all but the rarest of circumstances. Because of a quirk in a recent court decision, the committee’s hand may well be strengthened in obtaining that material if it can claim to be engaged in an impeachment inquiry, rather than just in the normal process of congressional oversight. In this sense, a press conference establishing that the committee is considering whether to bring articles of impeachment is a necessary step in beginning this litigation.

Pelosi reportedly signed off on the language used at the committee’s press conference, suggesting that she and the Judiciary Committee may have reached some kind of compromise. Soft-pedaling an impeachment inquiry allows the committee to reap the benefits of beginning proceedings in a forum in which it’s helpful—that is, the courts—while mitigating whatever damage Democratic leadership worries those proceedings would incur in the political space. The speaker has voiced concern that “the I-word,” as Trump reportedly calls it, could backfire in the form of increased political support for the president. By fudging whether an inquiry actually exists or not, the committee might make it more difficult for that inquiry to be turned against the Democrats. Thus have Pelosi and Nadler split the baby.

But all these evasions and half measures on the part of the Judiciary Committee add up to what appears to be an absence of conviction. When Solomon suggested that the proverbial baby be cut in two, the point was that the woman who agreed did not actually care all that much about the fate of the child.

Impeachment can carry great moral force. In 1974, the constitutional scholar Charles Black described the role of Congress in impeachment proceedings as “determining finally some of the weightiest of constitutional questions”—what the Constitution means when it says that a president may be removed for “high crimes and misdemeanors,” and which actions by a president are so vile or unacceptable that the country can no longer move forward under that person’s leadership. The act of beginning an impeachment inquiry is an opportunity to consider what the United States is and what it should be or could be. It is a declaration of constitutional and historical meaning.

If Friday’s press conference was a declaration of anything, it was lost in the confusion. The trouble with bringing urgent moral questions down to the level of political horse-trading is that the urgency dissolves, and with it the sense of moral crisis that House Democrats worked so hard over the course of Mueller’s testimony to build up.

Is moral clarity too much to expect? The process of impeachment is a political judgment, assigned by the Constitution to the branch of government that is both the most politically sensitive and, with its hundreds of members, the most challenged by the problems of collective action. So if the House shuffles awkwardly in the direction of impeachment proceedings, maybe shuffling is the best it can manage. And three months after the release of the Mueller report, any movement toward seriously considering impeachment is both welcome and long overdue.

Then again, the confusion of the press conference stems in part from the sheer strangeness of the prize the Judiciary Committee has invoked impeachment in order to obtain: that is, the grand-jury material. The odds in court are uncertain, and the redacted material makes up a minuscule portion of a report that, as Democrats have emphasized again and again, is profoundly unflattering to the president. It’s hard to imagine what kind of smoking gun could be hidden behind redactions. Anyway, the evidence table is already littered with exhibit after damning exhibit. At best, the grand-jury material is like the Maltese Falcon: the desired object that has no real significance, but moves the plot forward. At worst, it’s another way for the House to kick the can on presidential accountability down the road.

In watching Trump’s rage alongside what looks like Democratic dithering, what comes to mind is an unflattering line from the poet William Butler Yeats: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity.” The only hope is that the House will continue to slouch toward impeachment.
On the one hand, I'm glad that there is movement forward toward impeachment.

On the other hand, this seems the most back-assward way to go about it. Realistically, there is not going to be a conviction in the current Senate, no matter how well the Democrats play their cards. The primary effect of impeachment, then, is symbolic- to brand Trump a criminal, to force the Republicans into ignoring his crimes while under the spotlight, and to inspire and rally the base.

Trying to impeach on the down low seems like the worst of all possible worlds. What the fuck does Pelosi think she's doing? I'd like to think that there's some brilliant plan or trap here, but from where I'm standing, it just looks like waffling.

The only possible advantage I can see is that they can use "we're conducting an impeachment inquiry" to get court documents while avoiding the full controversy of impeachment. But that seems a difficult needle to thread. Because its quickly going to be obvious what they're doing, but by doing it this tepidly, they risk losing any possible momentum and PR benefits they could have gained by doing so.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Solauren »

Can a President that's been impeached by the House still run for office again?
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Solauren wrote: 2019-07-27 10:22pm Can a President that's been impeached by the House still run for office again?
Yes. He would only be removed from office upon conviction by a two-thirds vote in the Senate.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Solauren »

Then the only reason I can think of for calling for Impeachment, and moving slowly towards it, is to let is suddenly 'heat up' before the Nov 2020 Presidental election. They're own 'email server' scandal attack on Trump.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Zaune »

On the other hand, if they do it this way then there's a good chance Trump won't find out until they're ready to serve the subpoena, and the less advance notice he gets the less time he has to dump evidence and lean on witnesses.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

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Also it gives them a lot more power to compel evidence in all the other investigations the president is stonewalling like his tax returns.

Once an impeachment investigation is ongoing Congress has pretty broad powers to squeeze folks for evidence. That's probably the main reason for starting it off like this, a lever to use in other ongoing matters without it becoming the centre of attention.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

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Vendetta wrote: 2019-07-28 10:06am Also it gives them a lot more power to compel evidence in all the other investigations the president is stonewalling like his tax returns.

Once an impeachment investigation is ongoing Congress has pretty broad powers to squeeze folks for evidence. That's probably the main reason for starting it off like this, a lever to use in other ongoing matters without it becoming the centre of attention.
Its the only thing I can think of that makes a shred of sense, but I still wonder if they're sacrificing the main benefit of impeachment (an unambiguous symbolic condemnation of Trump which can also be used to rally their base) by doing it this way.

Well, we'll see where it goes over the next few months.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-28 04:59pm
Vendetta wrote: 2019-07-28 10:06am Also it gives them a lot more power to compel evidence in all the other investigations the president is stonewalling like his tax returns.

Once an impeachment investigation is ongoing Congress has pretty broad powers to squeeze folks for evidence. That's probably the main reason for starting it off like this, a lever to use in other ongoing matters without it becoming the centre of attention.
Its the only thing I can think of that makes a shred of sense, but I still wonder if they're sacrificing the main benefit of impeachment (an unambiguous symbolic condemnation of Trump which can also be used to rally their base) by doing it this way.

Well, we'll see where it goes over the next few months.
No, that is not the main or even a vaguely relevant tangental benefit of impeachment.

They can do much much more rallying of the base they're going to need on the basis of Trump's malfeasance with solid campaigning and attack ads hammering on how racist he is once the real campaign starts. He has, after all, given them so much ammunition to use in recent weeks.

The main benefit of an impeachment investigation is turning up something so damning that even the gravedigger of democracy can't bury it. Something directly and explicitly criminal, especially if they can nail him on one of the (at least two) rape accusations against him (one of which tied to Epstein, oh look who's in a state justice system the President can't pardon him out of....). And the more time the Democrats have the expanded powers of congressional investigation the more likely that is to happen.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Vendetta wrote: 2019-07-28 06:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-28 04:59pm
Vendetta wrote: 2019-07-28 10:06am Also it gives them a lot more power to compel evidence in all the other investigations the president is stonewalling like his tax returns.

Once an impeachment investigation is ongoing Congress has pretty broad powers to squeeze folks for evidence. That's probably the main reason for starting it off like this, a lever to use in other ongoing matters without it becoming the centre of attention.
Its the only thing I can think of that makes a shred of sense, but I still wonder if they're sacrificing the main benefit of impeachment (an unambiguous symbolic condemnation of Trump which can also be used to rally their base) by doing it this way.

Well, we'll see where it goes over the next few months.
No, that is not the main or even a vaguely relevant tangental benefit of impeachment.

They can do much much more rallying of the base they're going to need on the basis of Trump's malfeasance with solid campaigning and attack ads hammering on how racist he is once the real campaign starts. He has, after all, given them so much ammunition to use in recent weeks.

The main benefit of an impeachment investigation is turning up something so damning that even the gravedigger of democracy can't bury it. Something directly and explicitly criminal, especially if they can nail him on one of the (at least two) rape accusations against him (one of which tied to Epstein, oh look who's in a state justice system the President can't pardon him out of....). And the more time the Democrats have the expanded powers of congressional investigation the more likely that is to happen.
There's already clear evidence that Trump has committed multiple felonies, and he'll most likely be indicted if he leaves office before the statue of limitations (and if he tries to stay in office illegally to avoid it, it'll probably just end with treason, which has no statute of limitations being added to the indictments). The only reason for needing to turn up more evidence, besides keeping the case in the news cycle going into the election (ie political optics/symbolism) is in the hope that it'll be something so bad it'll get the Senate to convict, and I don't think that exists. I'm not convinced that high resolution footage of Trump eating a baby on live television would be enough to get Mitch's Senate to convict him.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Vendetta »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-28 08:41pm
Vendetta wrote: 2019-07-28 06:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-28 04:59pm

Its the only thing I can think of that makes a shred of sense, but I still wonder if they're sacrificing the main benefit of impeachment (an unambiguous symbolic condemnation of Trump which can also be used to rally their base) by doing it this way.

Well, we'll see where it goes over the next few months.
No, that is not the main or even a vaguely relevant tangental benefit of impeachment.

They can do much much more rallying of the base they're going to need on the basis of Trump's malfeasance with solid campaigning and attack ads hammering on how racist he is once the real campaign starts. He has, after all, given them so much ammunition to use in recent weeks.

The main benefit of an impeachment investigation is turning up something so damning that even the gravedigger of democracy can't bury it. Something directly and explicitly criminal, especially if they can nail him on one of the (at least two) rape accusations against him (one of which tied to Epstein, oh look who's in a state justice system the President can't pardon him out of....). And the more time the Democrats have the expanded powers of congressional investigation the more likely that is to happen.
There's already clear evidence that Trump has committed multiple felonies, and he'll most likely be indicted if he leaves office before the statue of limitations (and if he tries to stay in office illegally to avoid it, it'll probably just end with treason, which has no statute of limitations being added to the indictments). The only reason for needing to turn up more evidence, besides keeping the case in the news cycle going into the election (ie political optics/symbolism) is in the hope that it'll be something so bad it'll get the Senate to convict, and I don't think that exists. I'm not convinced that high resolution footage of Trump eating a baby on live television would be enough to get Mitch's Senate to convict him.
There's clear evidence that Donald Trump has benefited from multiple felonies to which currently available evidence does not strongly and directly link him, because that's how billionaires (and mob bosses) work.

Which is why it's currently still easy for the Senate to bury anything that comes to them and make it look like the other side is being unreasonable.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I suggest you read the Mueller Report, or even just a good summary of it. Literally anyone not the sitting PotUS would be charged with obstruction of justice for a fraction of what he did.

A non-PotUS would likely have been charged with campaign finance violations over the porn star payments, too.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-29 09:17pmA non-PotUS would likely have been charged with campaign finance violations over the porn star payments, too.
That said, even I have to admit that "they were trying to prevent the world from learning that Donald Trump paid a hooker to spank him with a back-issue of Forbes with his face on the cover" probably counts as mitigating circumstances. More people than his campaign staff would have been happier if all concerned had taken that factoid to their graves.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by Lord Revan »

I suspect that there's also the matter that Congress wants to build a solid and clear case against Trump so that there's no ambiguity over anything he is accused of since going off half-cocked here could end up being a proganda victory for Trump as he could spin as "democrats are sore losers who want to use the impeachment trial to win what they couldn't win at elections"

That's actually a very good reason to go slow and low key on the impeachment process, after all it's much harder to spin something when your accusers have solid evidence of wrong doing.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

Lord Revan wrote: 2019-07-29 11:34pm I suspect that there's also the matter that Congress wants to build a solid and clear case against Trump so that there's no ambiguity over anything he is accused of since going off half-cocked here could end up being a proganda victory for Trump as he could spin as "democrats are sore losers who want to use the impeachment trial to win what they couldn't win at elections"

That's actually a very good reason to go slow and low key on the impeachment process, after all it's much harder to spin something when your accusers have solid evidence of wrong doing.
However, that only works if your opposition can see reason, which given the circumstances, the GOP as it is won't see reason. They would rather -quite literally in this instance- sell the country out before working with the Dems.

Combine that with the GOP's vast multi-media propaganda network and an impenetrable media bubble... the only way to get Trump out is either 2020 or a literal coup... with the aftermath being picking up the pieces. You simply can't penetrate that bubble until you forcibly pop it.

I wish I was joking here.
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Re: House initiates impeachment inquiry, tries to downplay that they're doing it.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Welp, its official: A majority of House Democrats now support an impeachment inquiry.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/02/politics ... index.html
(CNN)A majority of House Democrats are now on record publicly supporting an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, according to a CNN count -- a sign of momentum for pro-impeachment lawmakers that is likely to ramp up pressure on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and House Democratic leaders.

The current number of impeachment backers may not necessarily, or immediately, change the calculation for House Democratic leadership on how to proceed as Democrats continue their investigations into the President and his administration. But it nevertheless shows that support among Democrats on Capitol Hill for an inquiry is continuing to grow.

Rep. Salud Carbajal of California became the 118th Democrat to publicly support the start of an impeachment inquiry in a statement on Friday, at least the 23rd lawmaker to do so since special counsel Robert Mueller testified on Capitol Hill last week.

"I've read the full Mueller Report, the president knew the rules and he broke them—he cannot be above the law," Carbajal said in the statement. "That is why I believe it is time to open an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump."

There has been a steady increase in the number of House Democrats who have announced they back an inquiry in the wake of Mueller's hearings, including Rep. Katherine Clark of Massachusetts, a member of House Democratic leadership.

Mueller's uneven testimony did not immediately prompt a wave of Democrats to back an impeachment inquiry, and many congressional Republicans declared his appearance the official end of the House Democratic impeachment push.

But since the House departed for its six-week recess at the end of last week, the number of Democrats backing an impeachment inquiry has steadily ticked upward, with more nearly two dozen Democrats publicly announcing their decision following Muller's appearance.

And while the initial group of Democrats who started calling for an inquiry was comprised of mostly progressives, several mainstream or moderate Democrats have joined in the call weeks.

The list now includes some Democrats who flipped Republican seats in the 2018 midterms, including Reps. Harley Rouda of California, Debbie Mucarsel-Powell of Florida, Jennifer Wexton of Virginia, Sean Casten of Illinois, Katie Porter of California and Mike Levin of California.

House Democrats also escalated the impeachment fight following Mueller's testimony when the House Judiciary Committee announced that it was suing to obtain the secret grand jury material from the Mueller report in federal court. The committee argued they needed the information in order to decide whether to impeach the President — and Chairman Jerry Nadler, a New York Democrat, said the committee was "in effect" already conducting the equivalent of an impeachment inquiry.

The lawsuit escalates the investigation into the President being conducted by the committee that could lead to impeachment proceedings, which the Judiciary Committee would lead. Nadler and other committee Democrats have said that the court filing is a new step that signals the committee is actively considering whether to introduce articles of impeachment.

Pelosi has downplayed the possibility of impeachment since Democrats took over the majority in January, but has also vowed that the party will hold the President accountable through rigorous oversight of the administration.

The House speaker has also insisted last week that she is not trying to stall on impeachment.

"I'm not trying to run out the clock," the California Democrat told reporters recently, adding, "We will proceed when we have what we need to proceed, not one day sooner," and saying, "Everybody has the liberty and the luxury to espouse their own position and to criticize me for trying to go down the path in the most determined positive way. Again, their advocacy for impeachment only gives me leverage."

On Friday, Pelosi's office released a lengthy statement, outlining her party's efforts to investigate Trump's administration, adding "Democrats in the Congress continue to legislate, investigate and litigate.

"In America, no one is above the law," Pelosi said in the statement. "The President will be held accountable."

This story has been updated with additional developments Friday.
About fucking time.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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