Death, drugs and HSBC

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by NoXion »

How fraudulent blood money makes the world go round
Recent reporting on illegal tax evasion by the world’s second largest bank, HSBC, opens a window onto the pivotal role of Western banks in facilitating organised crime, drug-trafficking and Islamist terrorism. Governments know this, but they are powerless to act, not just because they’ve been bought by the banks: but because criminal and terror financing is integral to global capitalism. Now one whistleblower who uncovered an estimated billion pounds worth of HSBC fraud in Britain, suppressed by the British media, is preparing a prosecution that could blow wide open the true scale of criminal corruption in the world’s finance capital.

...

According to whistleblower Nicholas Wilson, HSBC has been integrally involved in a fraudulent scheme to illegally overcharge British shoppers in arrears for debt on store cards at leading British high-street retailers. Without knowing, hundreds of thousands of Britons have been defrauded of a total of one billion pounds worth of money, reveals Wilson, a former debt recovery specialist who uncovered the crimes.

...

Most disturbing of all, the story of HSBC’s fraud against British consumers has been systematically ignored by the entire British press. In some cases, purportedly brave investigative journalism outfits have spent months investigating the story, preparing multiple drafts, before inexplicably spiking publication without reason.

To date, the only mainstream coverage Wilson has received was a brief appearance on BBC’s The Big Questions. That is not for want of understanding the story.

The full list of media organisations that have investigated, then spiked, Wilson’s story, despite its unprecedented importance and public interest value, includes BBC Panorama, BBC Newsnight, BBC Moneybox, BBC Radio 5 Live, The Guardian, Private Eye, and most recently, The Sunday Times.

...

The threat of legal action is only one part of the explanation for the reluctance of the British media to pursue such critical issues. The other dimension is that HSBC has gone to great efforts to capture as much of the media as it possibly can.

In August last year, HSBC director Rona Fairhead was appointed as chair of the BBC’s board of trustees. Fairhead is currently chair of HSBC’s North America Holdings, and was chair of the audit and risk committee when HSBC was fined by US authorities for money-laundering. Some of the fraud exposed in the Swiss leaks occurred during her watch on the committee. Before her government nomination to the BBC, Fairhead was appointed a British Business Ambassador by Prime Minister David Cameron. Prior to that, she had been a non-executive board director for the UK Cabinet Office under the coalition government.

...

HSBC’s effective immunity from meaningful sanction or accountability from government can be gleaned from disclosures in the US about the bank’s systematic complicity in criminal financing involving Islamist terrorism, drug-trafficking, money-laundering, among other things.

As investigative journalist Matt Taibbi wrote in Rolling Stone, the $1.9 billion in fines leveled at HSBC by the US Justice Department was for “the largest drug-and-terrorism money-laundering case ever.” The settlement was a mere slap on the wrist, equivalent to “about five weeks’ profit,” that allowed the bank to completely evade prosecutions.

Yet HSBC had engaged in aiding and abetting murder and terror on a grand scale — because organised crime is exceedingly profitable. Clients requiring criminal services can be charged any rate, allowing for literally fantastical scales of profit.

Much of HSBC’s misdemeanours were documented in an extensive 2012 report by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. Amongst its damning findings was HSBC’s longstanding relationship with Saudi Arabia’s al-Rajhi bank, described by the CIA in 2003 as a “conduit for extremist finance.” US intelligence assessed that al-Rajhi founder Sulaiman bin Abdul Aziz was a member of Osama bin Laden’s ‘Golden Chain’ financiers of al-Qaeda, and had in that capacity pushed al-Rahji bank to find ways to avoid subjecting the bank’s charitable donations to official scrutiny.

In 2003, HSBC was ordered by the US Federal Reserve to cease-and-desist its relationships with clients like al-Rahji. HSBC refused to do so, deceptively ending ties with al-Rahji bank and continuing relations with ‘al-Rahji Trading’ instead. Meanwhile, HSBC continued to engage dodgy clients, racking up dozens of repeated government warnings which it simply ignored. By 2006, the Bush administration canceled the 2003 cease-and-desist order, and HSBC almost immediately provided a billion dollars to al-Rahji. HSBC went on to launder money for Mexican and Colombian drug-cartels, criminal syndicates run out of foreign embassies, and countries under US sanctions like Iran and North Korea.

As Taibbi reveals, though, HSBC senior executives in London headquarters appeared to be fully aware of such activity: “… the chiefs in the parent company often knew about shady transactions when the regional subsidiary did not.” In the words of the Senate report, “HSBC was fully aware of the suspicions that al-Rajhi Bank and its owners were associated with terrorist financing, describing many of the alleged links in the al-Rajhi Bank client profile.”

By 2010, HSBC had racked up a backlog of 17,000 suspicious activity alerts that it had simply ignored. Yet the bank’s standard response when it received its next government cease-and-desist order was simply to ‘clear’ the alerts, and give assurances that everything was fine. According to former HSBC compliance officer and whistleblower Everett Stern, the bank’s executives were deliberately ignoring and violating anti-money laundering regulations. The Senate report found that HSBC had “exposed the US financial system to a wide array of money laundering, drug trafficking, and terrorist financing risks.”

Why did the US government avoid seeking criminal charges and prosecutions against HSBC, despite its unambiguous track record of financial crimes? The explanation of then Justice Department criminal division chief, Lanny Breuer, is telling:

“Had the US authorities decided to press criminal charges, HSBC would almost certainly have lost its banking license in the US, the future of the institution would have been under threat and the entire banking system would have been destabilised.”

Breuer was rewarded amply by Wall Street for his kindness. The following year, he landed a job at his former law firm, Covington and Burling, with a salary of $4 million.
Finance capital is out of control - how can such entities be meaningfully brought to heel, when they can currently get away with working for terrorists and organised criminals and buying off the politicians and mainstream media?

Assuming that it's out of the question to summarily shoot the felonious corrupt greedy bastards, of course.
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Flagg »

NoXion wrote:
Finance capital is out of control - how can such entities be meaningfully brought to heel, when they can currently get away with working for terrorists and organised criminals and buying off the politicians and mainstream media?

Assuming that it's out of the question to summarily shoot the felonious corrupt greedy bastards, of course.
It's out of the question to advocate for that on this board. But in my better dreams I see Wall Street lined on both sides with bankers crucified upon gilded crosses... But you know, dreams. :(
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Starglider »

Personal prosecutions and imprisonment of management staff would be required to significantly impact the risk/reward calculus. Fines, forced breakup/reorg, state ownership or prosecuting a few low-level scapegoats will not suffice.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5195
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by LaCroix »

Yeah, you'd need to instill fear of jailtime from the clerk to the CEO to get them to behave. Until they absolutely, positively know that everyone in the line of command WILL get behind bars if stuff comes out, they will just gamble away like they do now.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7476
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Zaune »

Well, we'd better get on with it before some concerned citizens decide that if extra-judicial execution by high explosives is good enough for the actual terrorists, it's good enough for their backers.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Iroscato
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2360
Joined: 2011-02-07 03:04pm
Location: Great Britain (It's great, honestly!)

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Iroscato »

Perhaps in their rabid push to fight THE TURRURISTS, the ominous 'They' have accidentally outed their banker buddies as major financiers. Question is, do they now furiously backpedal or go ahead and make some heads roll? Or more likely, just ignore the entire fucking thing?
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

- Raw Shark

Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.

- SirNitram (RIP)
User avatar
Bedlam
Jedi Master
Posts: 1499
Joined: 2006-09-23 11:12am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Bedlam »

Flagg wrote:
NoXion wrote:
Finance capital is out of control - how can such entities be meaningfully brought to heel, when they can currently get away with working for terrorists and organised criminals and buying off the politicians and mainstream media?

Assuming that it's out of the question to summarily shoot the felonious corrupt greedy bastards, of course.
It's out of the question to advocate for that on this board. But in my better dreams I see Wall Street lined on both sides with bankers crucified upon gilded crosses... But you know, dreams. :(
As someone who works for a bank I'm not to keen on this particular vision, but at least I'd get a trip to wall street I guess :?
User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by NoXion »

Bedlam wrote:As someone who works for a bank I'm not to keen on this particular vision, but at least I'd get a trip to wall street I guess :?
You should be safe, since “… the chiefs in the parent company often knew about shady transactions when the regional subsidiary did not.”

Which strongly indicates the rot is concentrated at the highest levels.
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12758
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Capital Punishment, not Capital Gains.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Starglider »

Zaune wrote:Well, we'd better get on with it before some concerned citizens decide that if extra-judicial execution by high explosives is good enough for the actual terrorists, it's good enough for their backers.
No one cares that much. The most you will do is rant on the social networking tools provided to you (so you can be datamined and monitored) and maybe take some selfies with your smartphone of holding up a placard at a 'protest' / hipster street party. Here, go spend your time ranting about the insidiousness of the capitopatriarcholigarhy on this 'Tumblr' we made for you. Don't forget to pay your student loan debt, you wouldn't want to lise your credit rating and ability to get a car on credit and a smartphone on plan would you.

A vanishingly small number of people in Western countries are interested in throwing away what they have tobtry and punnish some abstract white-collar crime that had no noticeable personal impact. Occupy Wall Street was a failure.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by K. A. Pital »

Alfred Herrhausen begs to differ from the netherworld, dear Starglider.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Channel72 »

Starglider wrote:
Zaune wrote:Well, we'd better get on with it before some concerned citizens decide that if extra-judicial execution by high explosives is good enough for the actual terrorists, it's good enough for their backers.
No one cares that much. The most you will do is rant on the social networking tools provided to you (so you can be datamined and monitored) and maybe take some selfies with your smartphone of holding up a placard at a 'protest' / hipster street party. Here, go spend your time ranting about the insidiousness of the capitopatriarcholigarhy on this 'Tumblr' we made for you. Don't forget to pay your student loan debt, you wouldn't want to lise your credit rating and ability to get a car on credit and a smartphone on plan would you.

A vanishingly small number of people in Western countries are interested in throwing away what they have tobtry and punnish some abstract white-collar crime that had no noticeable personal impact. Occupy Wall Street was a failure.
Stop being so nihilistic. We can't just sit back and let these large corporations get away with this. Our voices must be heard, and I won't stop posting rants on my facebook wall until HSBC personally apologizes to me. We have to rise up and ... wait ... oh shit... there's a new Star Wars trailer out! ... holy shit this is awesome.

...so, wait what was I upset about? Oh yeah.... stupid hilted fucking lightsaber, doesn't make any sense, god dammit.
User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by NoXion »

Starglider wrote:No one cares that much.
Maybe not yet. But things can always get worse. Especially since the cunts responsible aren't being brought to book; this means that they'll become more brazen and more openly criminal.
A vanishingly small number of people in Western countries are interested in throwing away what they have tobtry and punnish some abstract white-collar crime that had no noticeable personal impact. Occupy Wall Street was a failure.
Abetting organised crime and terrorism is "abstract" now?
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7476
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Zaune »

Starglider wrote:No one cares that much. The most you will do is rant on the social networking tools provided to you (so you can be datamined and monitored) and maybe take some selfies with your smartphone of holding up a placard at a 'protest' / hipster street party. Here, go spend your time ranting about the insidiousness of the capitopatriarcholigarhy on this 'Tumblr' we made for you. Don't forget to pay your student loan debt, you wouldn't want to lise your credit rating and ability to get a car on credit and a smartphone on plan would you.

A vanishingly small number of people in Western countries are interested in throwing away what they have tobtry and punnish some abstract white-collar crime that had no noticeable personal impact. Occupy Wall Street was a failure.
Right now? Maybe. But in this country at least, give it -at most- twenty more years for the structural unemployment problem that successive British governments have been failing to do anything about since the Eighties to get really exacerbated by automation, and we'll reach a critical mass of angry and disaffected young people with a burning need for someone to blame and very little to lose. At least some of them will be clever enough to not get caught until they rack up a non-trivial body count.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Arthur_Tuxedo
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5637
Joined: 2002-07-23 03:28am
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

LaCroix wrote:Yeah, you'd need to instill fear of jailtime from the clerk to the CEO to get them to behave. Until they absolutely, positively know that everyone in the line of command WILL get behind bars if stuff comes out, they will just gamble away like they do now.
Of course, the bigger problem is that if this doesn't happen, the bastards get so rich that they will buy the entire political system and become immune from all future prosecution. Thousands of employees and execs went to jail in the wake of the S&L crisis, yet only a few small fish faced any legal consequences after 2008 because the dogs were called off. I don't know how exactly to structure it, but law enforcement agencies need to be restructured in a way that political appointees only direct the bureau's grand strategy, but don't have the authority to interfere in investigations. Cash bonuses for whisteblowers paid from the coffers of the offending company would be nice, too, along with severe penalties for sweeping their revelations under the rug. All of this requires the public to actually care, of course, and we're past the expiration date on that until the banks blow up the economy again, which they eventually will.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali

"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12758
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by His Divine Shadow »

There's an interesting documentary on the BBC called the The Super-Rich and Us. Looking into what if any benefits do we get from allowing these people to exist?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Flagg »

Well I've been asking for a decade why we allow billionaires to exist and have never gotten a satisfactory answer. Most of the time the rightwing idiot brigade lights their heads (and hoods) on fire and calls me a commie.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Borgholio »

Well on the surface, why should people have a wealth cap? If you earned the money legitimately, why can't you be a billionaire?
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Arthur_Tuxedo
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5637
Joined: 2002-07-23 03:28am
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

I don't think the issue is the rich vs. the rest of us. It's the dishonest rich vs. everyone else. I have no problem with inventive people like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk becoming disgustingly, opulently rich. The problem is bankers who don't produce anything tangible and whose ideas enrich only themselves at the expense of others becoming rich enough to influence the political process, or huge corporations like Comcast that haven't contributed an original idea or come up with a decent product in decades using their muscle to squeeze the public and undermine capitalism by preventing competition.

Framing the debate as rich vs. middle class or 99% vs. 1% obscures this all-important distinction and allows the dishonest rich to trick the honest ones into supporting policies that bolster the fortunes of the liars and fraudsters and destroy those of the producers and innovators, just as much as they harm the middle and lower classes (if not more). People like Warren Buffett are smart enough to see through the bullshit and support sensible policies, but the rest of the honest 1%'ers need to be a given a strong narrative to follow or they'll never understand that it's the Bank of Americas of the world that are threatening their childrens' futures and not welfare recipients or minimum wage workers. Every time we frame the debate as rich vs. poor, we're feeding this false narrative and doing the Koch brothers' work for them.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali

"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12758
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by His Divine Shadow »

That "honest rich" stuff is an utterly pointless distinction. You make X amount of money you pay your fucking taxes (and it'd be a lot), no loopholes, no exception on how you made it or what moral claims you think have to it.

If you try and avoid it you should get sent to jail, if you try and flee the country you should get seal team 6'ed like OBL.

We basically add nothing to our economy by having super-rich people around, infact we distort it in negative ways and give them too much political clout which in turn leads to them causing massive long-term societal damage, we're already seeing it. Ordinary people are getting poorer, our children are not having the same services as our parents, we're now the generation that in a long time, has is looking at having less than the previous generation. Schools are being cut, hospitals, roads, people can't afford homes anymore, upwards mobility is disappearing, while a few fucking fucks have amassed more money than the 3.5 billion poorest in the world. They should be allowed to keep their money? Fuck no, they're worse than actual terrorists in my eyes.

Frankly I am starting to think the only way this is gonna end is for things to get bad enough for another french revolution repeat to happen.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
jwl
Jedi Master
Posts: 1137
Joined: 2013-01-02 04:31pm

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by jwl »

There's a difference between funding terrorism and lending money to a bank which is suspected of funding terrorism. It sounds like the latter is what actually happened but the former is what the article is trying to imply. Sounds like dishonest reporting to me.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12758
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by His Divine Shadow »

I'm not talking about terrorism, I'm talking about all the other things i mentioned, the way our whole society is changing for the worse, how our governments are getting captured, countries can't even balance their budgets anymore and structures built over long times to help people are getting torn down. Basically we're looking at the middle class going away and the creation of a neo-aristocracy that's above the law with most of the wealth. These people are far more dangerous to our societies than bombs.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by NoXion »

jwl wrote:There's a difference between funding terrorism and lending money to a bank which is suspected of funding terrorism. It sounds like the latter is what actually happened but the former is what the article is trying to imply. Sounds like dishonest reporting to me.
The banks aren't funding terrorism and crime, but they are abetting terrorists and criminals by providing them with financial services.
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Starglider »

Stas Bush wrote:Alfred Herrhausen begs to differ from the netherworld, dear Starglider.
The fact that you had to reach back 25 years for an example illustrates how vanishingly rare such incidents are. Back in the 80s, violent anarchist and communist movements still had some purchase in western Europe; covert Soviet funding helped of course. Wheras in 2009, the most that the vanguard of comunarchism could manage was a little petty vandalism e.g. Fred Goodwin, probably the most contraversial and damaging British figure in the crash, just had a few windows smashed. Of course the group responsible said 'this is only the beginning', just like OWS... and then nothing happened.
His Divine Shadow wrote:We basically add nothing to our economy by having super-rich people around
In theory, the ability to become very wealthy motivates business owners to make more efficient businesses, and also motivates early-stage startup people to take crazy risks and put in ridiculous work hours for little compensation (for the promise of future gain). Although practically wealth beyond $100M or so has so little incremental utility it probably has little contribution to this effect.
His Divine Shadow wrote:Basically we're looking at the middle class going away and the creation of a neo-aristocracy that's above the law with most of the wealth. These people are far more dangerous to our societies than bombs.
They even have cheerleaders in the form of the 'dark enlightenment' Libertarian burnouts, although fortunately those guys are a tiny comedy movement.
Borgholio wrote:Well on the surface, why should people have a wealth cap? If you earned the money legitimately, why can't you be a billionaire?
The 'sweat of my brow' argument is appealing and intuitive for normal human experience through most of history, e.g. you make, barter for or inherit stuff, and the family unit was so strong that inheritence seemed very natural. Why should lazy people be able to take your stuff instead of making their own etc.

Modern civilisation is significantly divorced from this, because wealth is so abstract now. Money is more of an abstract quantitied power dynamic about incentivising people to do the things you want them to do, rather than about physical stuff; this gets more and more pronounced at higher levels of wealth. A modern revolution does not need to be about physically stealing stuff from rich people, and in fact with the possible exception of buy-to-let property empires there is little individual benefit in doing so. All that is required is disregarding/dismantling the social convention that a higher value in your $ACCOUNT_BALANCE database record lets you make people do what you want, with the range of behaviour you can purchase increasing steadily as $ACCOUNT_BALANCE increases.

Of course it's an incredibly durable and pervasively reinforced social convention, so practically a disruption on the scale of 'end of civilisation as we know it' would be required.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7476
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Death, drugs and HSBC

Post by Zaune »

Starglider wrote:All that is required is disregarding/dismantling the social convention that a higher value in your $ACCOUNT_BALANCE database record lets you make people do what you want, with the range of behaviour you can purchase increasing steadily as $ACCOUNT_BALANCE increases.

Of course it's an incredibly durable and pervasively reinforced social convention, so practically a disruption on the scale of 'end of civilisation as we know it' would be required.
Would the obsolesence of nearly all un- and semi-skilled manual labour by automation be a suitable disruption?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
Post Reply