French Troops Intervene In Mali

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French Troops Intervene In Mali

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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/12/world ... rance.html
France Battling Islamists in Mali

Romaric Hien/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Fighters of the hard-line Salafi group Ansar Dine in August. The group has controlled Timbuktu and much of northern Mali since a coup d’état and a successful revolt against the central authority in March.
By ADAM NOSSITER and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: January 11, 2013
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BAMAKO, Mali — The international standoff with Islamists controlling northern Mali took a decisive turn on Friday, as French forces engaged in an intense battle to beat back an aggressive militant push into the center of the country.
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President François Hollande of France said the military operation would “last as long as necessary,” while governments of Mali’s neighbors and others discussed how to move forward.
Responding to an urgent plea for help from the Malian government, French troops carried out airstrikes against Islamist fighters, blunting an advance by hundreds of heavily armed extremists, according to French officials and Gen. Carter F. Ham, the top American military commander in Africa. One French helicopter had apparently been downed in the fighting, he said.

The Pentagon is now weighing a broad range of options to support the French effort, including enhanced intelligence-sharing and logistics support, but it is not considering sending American troops, General Ham said.

The sudden introduction of Western troops upends months of tortured debate over how — and when — foreign nations should confront the Islamist seizure of northern Mali. The Obama administration and governments around world have long been alarmed that a vast territory roughly twice the size of Germany could so easily fall into the hands of extremists, calling it a safe haven where terrorists were building their ranks and seeking to extend their influence throughout the region and beyond.

Yet for months, the Islamists have appeared increasingly unshakable in their stronghold, carrying out public amputations, whippings and stonings as the weak Malian army retreated south and African nations debated how to find money and soldiers to recapture the territory.

All of that changed this week, when the Islamists suddenly charged southward with a force of 800 to 900 fighters in 50 to 200 vehicles, taking over a frontier town that had been the de facto line of government control, according to General Ham and a Western diplomat. Worried that there was little to stop the militants from storming ever further into Mali, France — for the second time in less than two years — intervened with guns and bombs into a former African colony rent by turmoil.

“French forces brought their support this afternoon to Malian Army units to fight against terrorist elements,” President François Hollande of France said in a statement to reporters in Paris on Friday, noting that the operation would “last as long as necessary.”

“The terrorists should know that France will always be there,” he added.

Sanda Ould Boumana, a spokesman for Ansar Dine, one of the Islamist groups that controls northern Mali along with Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, known as A.Q.I.M., and its allies, insisted in a telephone interview that the militants had held their ground.

“Some planes came and bombed some civilians,” he said. “A woman was killed. It’s a well-known scenario. There wasn’t even combat. Planes bombed a mosque. That’s it.”

Mr. Boumana called the intervention illegal, saying the French had “come to support a bunch of murderers. That’s France, and that’s the West. We are not surprised.”

Malian officials in the capital, Bamako, called the French military strike a welcome shift in the standoff.

“It was evident that the Malian Army would never have been able to handle this,” said Tiébilé Dramé, a leading opposition politician. “The French intervention goes beyond what was hoped for. No one was expecting things would go this quickly. France had said it wouldn’t intervene, and Malians were hoping for a rapid intervention.”

Why the Islamists provoked a military strike by capturing the village of Konna on Thursday, a possible prelude to attacking bigger towns on their way to the capital, more than 300 miles away, remained unclear. They were not facing a military intervention for many months, and even then it was not expected to include Western forces.

“Was this a move by A.Q.I.M. toward Bamako? Were they making a move to simply strengthen negotiating position, to gain a little more territory?” General Ham said. “The real question is, now what?” he said, adding that discussions were now under way among Washington, Paris and African governments in the region.

The big prize the Islamists evidently sought — capturing the major Malian government airfield nearby in Sévaré, which is vital for any military intervention in the north of Mali — seemed to be outside their grasp on Friday.

But while senior Malian officers heralded their new military “partners on the ground,” some warned that the Islamists remained strong and could still press forward. “It’s temporary,” said one officer, who was not authorized to speak publicly. “They have the means to advance.”

Holding off the Islamists, moreover, is a far cry from retaking the north. While tens of thousands of civilians have fled the area, many others remain in the ancient city of Timbuktu and other towns under Islamist control, leaving them highly vulnerable in the event urban warfare breaks out.

Beyond that, extremists in the north, who finance themselves in part by kidnapping and ransoming foreigners, are still holding more than a dozen hostages and have sometimes threatened to kill them if an attack takes place.

Still, Western and Malian officials said the French assault had changed the dynamic of the conflict, accelerating plans for a broader military strategy.

“What’s sure now is that things will not happen as we thought they would a month ago,” said a Western diplomat, who was not authorized to speak publicly. “We’ve told Ecowas countries to accelerate preparations to send troops,” he added, referring to the 15-member Economic Community of West African States, which has agreed to provide an intervention force.

France has a long history of expeditionary military actions in its former African colonies. Mr. Hollande had said that France would not send troops into combat in Mali until Friday, when it seemed that the government in Bamako might collapse. But the French had positioned military contingents near Mali, with deployments in Senegal, Burkina Faso and the Ivory Coast, for example. There were also persistent reports that French special forces were in Mali.

Under Mr. Hollande’s predecessor, Nicolas Sarkozy, France also carried out airstrikes to dislodge Ivory Coast’s strongman, Laurent Gbagbo, in 2011, bringing a quick end to a bloody four-month civil war precipitated by Mr. Gbagbo’s refusal to leave office after an electoral defeat.

Adam Nossiter reported from Bamako and Eric Schmitt from Niamey, Niger. Rick Gladstone contributed reporting from New York, and Scott Sayare from Paris.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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So wait, Europe actually does not need America to fight a real islamist insurgency in Africa? :lol: I mean, "Europe is a paper tiger" right? Europe can't fight wars without the USA and thus is forever beholden to follow their every whim... or not.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Stas Bush wrote:So wait, Europe actually does not need America to fight a real islamist insurgency in Africa? :lol: I mean, "Europe is a paper tiger" right? Europe can't fight wars without the USA and thus is forever beholden to follow their every whim... or not.
Or, you could pull your head out of your ass. You know damn well that Europe couldn't take down the air defense network in Libya, and the islamist occupied areas of Mali don't have a functional air defense network.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Stas Bush wrote:So wait, Europe actually does not need America to fight a real islamist insurgency in Africa? :lol: I mean, "Europe is a paper tiger" right? Europe can't fight wars without the USA and thus is forever beholden to follow their every whim... or not.
So wait there's a difference between a poorly armed and trained militia and the actual Army that Qaddafi had? Shocking I tell you. :roll:
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Well, some of those Malian rebel fighters were ex Qaddafi mercenaries, IIRC.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Pelranius wrote:Well, some of those Malian rebel fighters were ex Qaddafi mercenaries, IIRC.
That doesn't give them the unified command structure and heavy military equipment that being in an organized military does, though. Veteran skill helps them, but it doesn't magic up a SAM network out of the ground.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Or, you could pull your head out of your ass. You know damn well that Europe couldn't take down the air defense network in Libya, and the islamist occupied areas of Mali don't have a functional air defense network.
Yes, I'm sure they would have had their air force shot down to the last plane by Ghaddafis terrifying elite murder pilots that had to be given precisely enough fuel to fly from point A to B, drop their bombs and return home and not a drop more to prevent them from defecting, and the extremely modern and well maintained SAMs that the Lybian Army could use so so well, I recall they shot down dozens upon dozens of American planes, so god knows what they would do to those pinko commie eurofighters.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Or to put it another way, "France, trying to get touchy-feely with their former colonies". Is there any chance they are testing new weapons systems?

Also, people, quit wanking Libya. No country in Europe ever built a carrier able to wage war against an entire country and win. If this nowadays means "they wouldn't defeat a third world country", then... at least have the courtesy to inform the rational people.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Alkaloid wrote:
Or, you could pull your head out of your ass. You know damn well that Europe couldn't take down the air defense network in Libya, and the islamist occupied areas of Mali don't have a functional air defense network.
Yes, I'm sure they would have had their air force shot down to the last plane by Ghaddafis terrifying elite murder pilots that had to be given precisely enough fuel to fly from point A to B, drop their bombs and return home and not a drop more to prevent them from defecting, and the extremely modern and well maintained SAMs that the Lybian Army could use so so well, I recall they shot down dozens upon dozens of American planes, so god knows what they would do to those pinko commie eurofighters.
You do realize that the USAF is significantly better at that sort of operation and the losses were so low because of that fact? You're also of course aware that they Europeans were running out of weaponry without even having to be involved in dismantling the SAM network and basically wouldn't have been able to do... anything without that network having been destroyed first right?
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Or to put it another way, "France, trying to get touchy-feely with their former colonies". Is there any chance they are testing new weapons systems?

Also, people, quit wanking Libya. No country in Europe ever built a carrier able to wage war against an entire country and win. If this nowadays means "they wouldn't defeat a third world country", then... at least have the courtesy to inform the rational people.
Who's wanking Libya? They had a cheap but fairly effective SAM network, which would've prevented air support from the European countries from being meaningful in the Libyan civil war. That's not wank, that's just fact.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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You do realize that the USAF is significantly better at that sort of operation and the losses were so low because of that fact? You're also of course aware that they Europeans were running out of weaponry without even having to be involved in dismantling the SAM network and basically wouldn't have been able to do... anything without that network having been destroyed first right?
I do, and I am. I am also aware the European nations spent significantly less than the US on the operation, and didn't really stretch its military to do anything difficult because they preferred pressuring the US to do it instead. A European intervention independent of the US would be slower and more casualty intensive, and would almost certainly involve deploying naval and land forces as well as aircraft, but that's a far cry from 'Libya would have kicked European arse in a war.'
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Alkaloid wrote:
You do realize that the USAF is significantly better at that sort of operation and the losses were so low because of that fact? You're also of course aware that they Europeans were running out of weaponry without even having to be involved in dismantling the SAM network and basically wouldn't have been able to do... anything without that network having been destroyed first right?
I do, and I am. I am also aware the European nations spent significantly less than the US on the operation, and didn't really stretch its military to do anything difficult because they preferred pressuring the US to do it instead. A European intervention independent of the US would be slower and more casualty intensive, and would almost certainly involve deploying naval and land forces as well as aircraft, but that's a far cry from 'Libya would have kicked European arse in a war.'
Again, I haven't seen anyone claim that. Remember that slower would've meant too late. The Rebels were pretty much done, and American airpower cleared the skies weeks faster than the Europeans would've been able to, which would've meant there was nothing left to rescue.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Again, I haven't seen anyone claim that.
TimothyC wrote:Or, you could pull your head out of your ass. You know damn well that Europe couldn't take down the air defense network in Libya, and the islamist occupied areas of Mali don't have a functional air defense network.
That kind of looks like someone saying that.
Again, I haven't seen anyone claim that. Remember that slower would've meant too late. The Rebels were pretty much done, and American airpower cleared the skies weeks faster than the Europeans would've been able to, which would've meant there was nothing left to rescue.
It would have changed the way everything played out, and they would have needed to focus on securing areas for the rebels to fall back to (most likely coastal cities given they are easier to support with naval assets) before pushing back into Ghaddaffi controlled areas supported by European troops and armour, but Ghaddaffi would still not win. This discussiopn has already happenned though, theres a thread about it where someone goes on about Europe underspending of defence because they will be invaded by the soviets or an Islamic caliphate or something equally unlikely, and then claims there not a taboo on using nuclear weapons for some reason. Look that up if you really want to go into it.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Block wrote: You do realize that the USAF is significantly better at that sort of operation and the losses were so low because of that fact? You're also of course aware that they Europeans were running out of weaponry without even having to be involved in dismantling the SAM network and basically wouldn't have been able to do... anything without that network having been destroyed first right?
Bunk. Neither France nor Britain were running out of ammunition in Libya. The weapons expended were a tiny amount compared to both countries warstocks, and in the GBU case, were easily replenishable anyway.
Again, I haven't seen anyone claim that. Remember that slower would've meant too late. The Rebels were pretty much done, and American airpower cleared the skies weeks faster than the Europeans would've been able to, which would've meant there was nothing left to rescue.
You're also missing the fact that French planes were involved in operations before the US missile strike, AND specifically refused American SEAD support on their missions later - despite reports that Libya's surviving SAMs tried to engage them (but failed, and were destroyed in turn).
Oh, and the only plane shot down was a US F-15. Not that it proves anything (hardly a statistical sample).
Basically, you're interpretation of the events goes against the actual facts. It wasn't "American airpower saved the Rebels while weak pathetic Europeans were wringing their hands) as you're implying. It was French airpower that saved the rebels and stopped Gaddafi's forces in their tracks on the first day of the campaign. A unilateral French decision. And then everyone else was forced to follow suit.


It doesn't mean American support was useless, that would be going to the other extreme. It helped. Though, both in Libya and now Mali, the help is most crucially needed on logistics : air transport and air refueling, especially since those two areas are the ones where France has the most glaring weakness right now (the A-400M cannot come to soon).
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Wasn't the official line about that F-15 crashing was because of mechanical failure or somesuch, not enemy fire?

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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by K. A. Pital »

Does it really matter? The actual picture, as iborg already demonstrated, differs a lot from the AMERICA WORLD POLICE image that people try to paint even in this very thread. France has more than enough resources for their own military endeavours in Africa, and contrary to what's been spread around Europe was not "running out of stocks" when combatting the Libyan Army. Regardless of how you view the conflict, one cannot earnestly continue to believe that Europe is helpless without America and should continue to follow US whims just because "US provides the world (meaning "the buddies of US") with security!"
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Funny, a later article from the same site says Denmark actually bought weapons from Israel to drop on Libya because nobody in Europe could supply them. So much for Europe having enough ammo; the Danes were only flying four F-16s too, hardly a lavish force for someone else on the European side of NATO to support.
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France clearly does not have more then enough resources for its military endeavours. That is why they have sought and gotten support US and UK transport aircraft, and now US KC-135 refueling tankers too. Please get a fucking clue.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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Colonialism: it's only okay when we do it. :lol:
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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anyone else find it a bit ironic the French are all against US operations then they pull something like this? Not saying they are right or wrong just that I find the rhetoric amusing.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

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They were against a stupid, wasteful, cretinous and dishonest war in Iraq. As were most people who didn't stand to profit/watch Fox.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by Raj Ahten »

Well before the Islamists fled Timbuktu they reportedly took the time to burn libraries full of irreplaceable manuscripts! While the war on terror sucks, the militants is Mali certainly are a special bunch of assclowns. Yes burn the history of a golden age in Islam to bring on the new golden age of Islam! Fuckers.

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Timbuktu mayor: Mali rebels torched library of historic manuscripts

Fleeing Islamist insurgents burnt two buildings containing priceless books as French-led troops approached, says mayor

Luke Harding in Sévaré
The Guardian, Monday 28 January 2013 12.07 EST

Islamist insurgents retreating from Timbuktu set fire to a library containing thousands of priceless historic manuscripts, according to the Saharan town's mayor, in an incident he described as a "devastating blow" to world heritage.

Hallé Ousmani Cissé told the Guardian that al-Qaida-allied fighters on Saturday torched two buildings that held the manuscripts, some of which dated back to the 13th century. They also burned down the town hall, the governor's office and an MP's residence, and shot dead a man who was celebrating the arrival of the French military.

French troops and the Malian army reached the gates of Timbuktu on Saturday and secured the town's airport. But they appear to have got there too late to rescue the leather-bound manuscripts that were a unique record of sub-Saharan Africa's rich medieval history. The rebels attacked the airport on Sunday, the mayor said.

"It's true. They have burned the manuscripts," Cissé said in a phone interview from Mali's capital, Bamako. "They also burned down several buildings. There was one guy who was celebrating in the street and they killed him."

He added: "This is terrible news. The manuscripts were a part not only of Mali's heritage but the world's heritage. By destroying them they threaten the world. We have to kill all of the rebels in the north."

On Monday French army officers said French-led forces had entered Timbuktu and secured the town without a shot being fired. A team of French paratroopers crept into the town by moonlight, advancing from the airport, they said. Residents took to the streets to celebrate.

The manuscripts were held in two separate locations: an ageing library and a new South African-funded research centre, the Ahmad Babu Institute, less than a mile away. Completed in 2009 and named after a 17th-century Timbuktu scholar, the centre used state-of-the-art techniques to study and conserve the crumbling scrolls.

Both buildings were burned down, according to the mayor, who said the information came from an informer who had just left the town. Asked whether any of the manuscripts might have survived, Cissé replied: "I don't know."

The manuscripts had survived for centuries in Timbuktu, on the remote south-west fringe of the Sahara desert. They were hidden in wooden trunks, buried in boxes under the sand and in caves. When French colonial rule ended in 1960, Timbuktu residents held preserved manuscripts in 60-80 private libraries.

The vast majority of the texts were written in Arabic. A few were in African languages, such as Songhai, Tamashek and Bambara. There was even one in Hebrew. They covered a diverse range of topics including astronomy, poetry, music, medicine and women's rights. The oldest dated from 1204.

Seydou Traoré, who has worked at the Ahmed Baba Institute since 2003, and fled shortly before the rebels arrived, said only a fraction of the manuscripts had been digitised. "They cover geography, history and religion. We had one in Turkish. We don't know what it said."

He said the manuscripts were important because they exploded the myth that "black Africa" had only an oral history. "You just need to look at the manuscripts to realise how wrong this is."

Some of the most fascinating scrolls included an ancient history of west Africa, the Tarikh al-Soudan, letters of recommendation for the intrepid 19th-century German explorer Heinrich Barth, and a text dealing with erectile dysfunction.

A large number dated from Timbuktu's intellectual heyday in the 14th and 15th centuries, Traoré said. By the late 1500s the town, north of the Niger river, was a wealthy and successful trading centre, attracting scholars and curious travellers from across the Middle East. Some brought books to sell.

Typically, manuscripts were not numbered, Traoré said, but repeated the last word of a previous page on each new one. Scholars had painstakingly numbered several of the manuscripts, but not all, under the direction of an international team of experts.

Mali government forces that had been guarding Timbuktu left the town in late March, as Islamist fighters advanced rapidly across the north. Fighters from al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) – the group responsible for the attack on the Algerian gas facility – then swept in and seized the town, pushing out rival militia groups including secular Tuareg nationalists.

Traoré told the Guardian that he decided to leave Timbuktu in January 2012 amid ominous reports of shootings in the area, and after the kidnapping of three European tourists from a Timbuktu hotel. A fourth tourist, a German, resisted and was shot dead. Months later AQIM arrived, he said.

Four or five rebels had been sleeping in the institute, which had comparatively luxurious facilities for staff, he said. As well as the manuscripts, the fighters destroyed almost all of the 333 Sufi shrines dotted around Timbuktu, believing them to be idolatrous. They smashed a civic statue of a man sitting on a winged horse. "They were the masters of the place," Traoré said.

Other residents who fled Timbuktu said the fighters adorned the town with their black flag. Written on it in Arabic were the words "God is great". The rebels enforced their own brutal and arbitrary version of Islam, residents said, with offenders flogged for talking to women and other supposed crimes. The floggings took place in the square outside the 15th-century Sankoré mosque, a Unesco world heritage site.

"They weren't religious men. They were criminals," said Maha Madu, a Timbuktu boatman, now in the Niger river town of Mopti. Madu said the fighters grew enraged if residents wore trousers down to their ankles, which they believed to be western and decadent. He alleged that some fighters kidnapped and raped local women, keeping them as virtual sex slaves. "They were hypocrites. They told us they couldn't smoke. But they smoked themselves," he said.

The rebels took several other towns south of Timbuktu, he said, including nearby Diré. If the rebels spotted a boat flying the Malian national flag, they ripped the flag off and replaced it with their own black one, he said.

The precise fate of the manuscripts was difficult to verify. All phone communication with Timbuktu was cut off. The town was said to be without electricity, water or fuel. According to Traoré, who was in contact with friends there until two weeks ago, many of the rebels left town following France's military intervention.

He added: "My friend [in Timbuktu] told me they were diminishing in number. He doesn't know where they went. But he said they were trying to hide their cars by painting and disguising them with mud."

The recapture of Timbuktu is another success for the French military, which has now secured two out of three of Mali's key rebel-held sites, including the city of Gao on Saturday. The French have yet to reach the third, Kidal. Local Tuareg militia leaders said on Monday they had taken control of Kidal after the abrupt departure of the Islamist fighters who ran the town.
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'It's an absolute tragedy'

Essop Pahad, who was chairman of the Timbuktu manuscripts projectfor the South African government, said: "I'm absolutely devastated, as everybody else should be. I can't imagine how anybody, whatever their political or ideological leanings, could destroy some of the most precious heritage of our continent. They could not be in their right minds.

"The manuscripts gave you such a fantastic feeling of the history of this continent. They made you proud to be African. Especially in a context where you're told that Africa has no history because of colonialism and all that. Some are in private hands but the fact is these have been destroyed and it's an absolute tragedy."

He added: "It's one of our greatest cultural treasure houses. It's also one of the great treasure houses of Islamic history. The writings are so forward-looking on marriage, on trade, on all sorts of things. If the libraries are destroyed then a very important part of African and world history are gone. I'm so terribly upset at hearing what's happened. I can't think of anything more terrible."

Riason Naidoo, who directed the Timbuktu manuscripts project, said he is still awaiting confirmation of the extent of the damage. "It would be a catastrophe if the reports are true," he said. "I just hope certain parts of the building are unharmed and the manuscripts are safe."

The then South African president, Thabo Mbeki, was inspired by the "intellectual treasure" while visiting Timbuktu in 2001, and initiated a joint project between the two countries. He attended the opening of the Ahmad Babu Institute in 2009. A spokeswoman for the Thabo Mbeki Foundation said on Monday: "We haven't yet heard anything concrete as to what the real story is, so at the moment we can't really comment. We're getting mixed stories."

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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by PeZook »

Jesus, what the fuck was their problem? The place had no strategic value, so this just seems like mindless vandalism for vandalism's sake, as in "Let's destroy something important to spite our enemies"
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by weemadando »

Had you somehow missed the previous year of them trashing various shrines, relics and other historical artifacts there? They were destroying the shrines of various Muslim saints because their branch of Islam doesn't accept icons/idols. Maybe when they finally get to Paradise those saints will have words with them.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by PeZook »

weemadando wrote:Had you somehow missed the previous year of them trashing various shrines, relics and other historical artifacts there? They were destroying the shrines of various Muslim saints because their branch of Islam doesn't accept icons/idols. Maybe when they finally get to Paradise those saints will have words with them.
Actually yeah, I have missed all that :P

I guess it should be pretty obvious, it's not like it's a first time sectarian conflicts led to destruction of priceless historical artifacts. Maybe I just think people should have some reverence for the history of their own faith or home, even if they think it was wrong/offensive.
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
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Re: French Troops Intervene In Mali

Post by SomeDude »

It's not even clear that everything was really wiped out:

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ut/272658/
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