Teens trash hotel; police do nothing

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Eulogy
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Teens trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Eulogy »

Some toddlers never grow up.
Welland Tribune wrote:Welland teens trash hotel rooms
22 of hotel's rooms ruined or damaged, owner says
By BRETT CLARKSON/QMI Agency
Updated 1 day ago

NIAGARA FALLS — A group of Welland high school students rampaged through a Lundy's Lane motel after a Friday night dance, trashing 22 rooms and leaving a trail of destruction that left some rooms looking as if a bomb had hit them.

The sheer amount of damage — gaping holes in the drywall, entire doors shredded to pieces, sinks ripped from the walls — has Avenue Inn owner David Linqi Liu considering legal action against the motel guests while motel manager Robert Forget is wondering why police apparently did little to stop the carnage.

For their part, police said the matter is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

The trouble began Friday night at about 8 p.m., soon after students from Notre Dame College School started showing up at their rooms, said Forget, who was working at the motel through the night as the rooms were turned upside down.

The Grade 12 students had booked 35 rooms at the motel — about four to each room — so that they'd have a place to party after their school's semiformal dance at the Americana on Lundy's Lane.

Forget said he was told about 8 p.m. by a student that Room 135 was being "demolished," he said.

"By the time I got to the room, it was completely destroyed," he said, adding that he locked the room and started going door-to-door to see if there were more problems.

At 9 p.m., Forget said he started kicking kids off the property, dispatching about 30 students from the motel property.

But the damage didn't stop there.

"We tried to help them out, to have a little fun, and they repay us by destroying our rooms," Forget said, adding the remaining kids were destroying rooms until about 5 a.m.

Forget also said a Niagara Regional Police cruiser drove through the Avenue Inn's parking lot several times during the night.


He said that when he told police of the escalating situation, they told him there was little they could do because it was a civil issue, not a criminal one, and that it was the motel's responsibility to deal with their guests.

"They said it was our problem," Forget said.

One student who was at the motel, but who didn't want to be identified for fear of being targeted by fellow students said she saw the police response.

She echoed what Forget said, that police were told of the situation, but said that it wasn't their issue to deal with.

NRP Staff Sgt. Michael Woods said police treat situations like the Avenue Inn debacle as a civil matter between two parties involved in a contract.

"When you rent a house to that person, and that person causes damage to it, then the resultant trying to get your money back is done as a civil process, whether it's through a landlord tenant board or if it's done through small claims court," Woods said. "It's a similar situation."

Woods also called on the motel owners to be more careful about who they rent to.

"Unfortunately, this happens every year where these motel owners are choosing to rent to these kids," he said. "I would think if they speak to each other at all, that they're fully aware of the problems they're going to have by doing this. There's a certain onus on the renter of the property to take steps to protect his property."

In an e-mail Monday night, Woods said he spoke to the sergeant who took the initial report to police — made on Saturday morning after the guests had left — and that he "had no information on whether anyone had attended the night before."

The Notre Dame student said that a list of students who were staying at the motel was given to the motel's management. She said that only students who were wearing wristbands should've been on the hotel property.

However, the party soon got out of control and that there were ultimately a lot of kids there who had no business being there because they weren't wearing wristbands.

She said that students from several Welland high schools including Notre Dame, Centennial and Eastdale, and Pelham's E.L. Crossley, were at the motel. She said that the party also included kids who had already graduated from Notre Dame.

Also, two people posted pictures of themselves on Facebook, posing in the destroyed Room 135. Under the picture, 31 people indicated they liked the photo.

"That's embarrassing and I feel horrible for what has happened," said the student, who wasn't involved in the vandalism.

On Monday, Forget, Liu, and his son Harry Liu showed a reporter and photographer the extent of the damage, leading the way from room to room.

While some rooms suffered varying levels of moderate to extensive damage, other rooms were scenes of complete carnage. It was clear that whoever was behind the vandalism had their work cut out for them.

There were large holes in the drywall that enabled clear view from the bedroom — through the wall — into the bathroom. In one bathroom, the ceiling tiles along with the ductwork had been pulled down so that they rested on the toilet. Outside the bathroom, the pieces of dozens of broken beer and liquor bottles littered the floor.

In other rooms, discarded condoms had been left on the floor, a short distance away from a stove that had had its glass door smashed. Beer-drenched TVs lay on the floor, near ripped wall paintings. A Holy Bible had even been torn up.

"Disarray — they just turned it upside down," Forget said.

One room stank of vomit, urine, and cigarette smoke. A large yellow stain covered the bed.

"Kids urinating on the bed," Forget remarked.

Harry Liu said his family, originally from Toronto, took over the motel in March and that the business has been challenging at the best of times.

"I just can't imagine that kids would do something like that," Liu said.

The Lius said they have all the names of all the students who stayed in the rooms and that they'll be trying to make contact with them.

"We have their names," Liu said, adding that the financial toll was probably somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000.

A message left with Notre Dame requesting comment wasn't returned Monday night.

An e-mail to Niagara Catholic District School Board Director of Education John Crocco wasn't immediately responded to.
At least the little monsters made it easy to get arrested. They'll have their wages garnished for a very long time, if they're lucky.

Shame on the police, though. The building is getting DESTROYED and the pigs do nothing, saying it's a civil matter? I hope they also get litigated up the ass. :finger:
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Count Chocula »

So blatant property damage isn't a criminal offense under Canadian law? That's offensive.

The little shits are an embarrasment to their schools and their families. It would be nice, but probably won't happen, if THEY have to help rebuild the damage they caused.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Bakustra »

Renting a hotel room is signing a contract. The Avenue Inn contract almost certainly doesn't say that "If you are damaging the room you may be held criminally liable on charges of vandalism", so the police took the position that this overrides the ordinary criminal offense of vandalism (which is a crime in Canada, by the way). I guess this is one unforeseen consequence of the fetish for contract and property rights- it allows them to override criminal penalties.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Zaune »

In fairness to the cops, I don't know very much about the law in that part of the world, but I do know that one or two cops versus several dozen drunk teenagers could go a couple of different ways and none of them are good. And on a Friday night there was small chance of getting more than one or two cops, I expect; they have enough trouble responding to every incident where someone's been glassed or stabbed.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Simon_Jester »

Bakustra wrote:Renting a hotel room is signing a contract. The Avenue Inn contract almost certainly doesn't say that "If you are damaging the room you may be held criminally liable on charges of vandalism", so the police took the position that this overrides the ordinary criminal offense of vandalism (which is a crime in Canada, by the way). I guess this is one unforeseen consequence of the fetish for contract and property rights- it allows them to override criminal penalties.
The hotel contract presumably doesn't say "if you murder the hotel maid you may be charged with murder;" does that mean the police aren't expected to come if one of the guests murders the maid?

I have a hard time visualizing the legal argument used to justify this. A contract between you and the proprietor may remove criminal liability for certain crimes, on your end or theirs. But it doesn't mean that the proprietor can't press charges against you for doing something you do not have contractual permission to do.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Bakustra »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Bakustra wrote:Renting a hotel room is signing a contract. The Avenue Inn contract almost certainly doesn't say that "If you are damaging the room you may be held criminally liable on charges of vandalism", so the police took the position that this overrides the ordinary criminal offense of vandalism (which is a crime in Canada, by the way). I guess this is one unforeseen consequence of the fetish for contract and property rights- it allows them to override criminal penalties.
The hotel contract presumably doesn't say "if you murder the hotel maid you may be charged with murder;" does that mean the police aren't expected to come if one of the guests murders the maid?

I have a hard time visualizing the legal argument used to justify this. A contract between you and the proprietor may remove criminal liability for certain crimes, on your end or theirs. But it doesn't mean that the proprietor can't press charges against you for doing something you do not have contractual permission to do.
The contract explicitly covers damages to the room- they are charged to your account. So your interpretation is faulty.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Eulogy wrote: At least the little monsters made it easy to get arrested. They'll have their wages garnished for a very long time, if they're lucky.

Shame on the police, though. The building is getting DESTROYED and the pigs do nothing, saying it's a civil matter? I hope they also get litigated up the ass. :finger:
Why shame on the police? Given your posting history in police related threads I thought you wanted the police to act within their scope of authority?

If you read the entire article the police Sgt. explains the authority police have in these types of situations and that authority appears to be little to none. The problem is with Canadian legislature. In Utah we have a law called the Inn Keepers Rights Act which the Inn Keeper has the right to evict those he/she reasonable feels is engaged in criminal activity, violating hotel rules, or in this case excessive property damage and it also gives the police the power to enforce that decision. We kick people out of hotel rooms all the time.

Now if Canada does have something like that and the police didn't take action when help was requested then yeah they should be held responsible.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Lord Zentei »

Bakustra wrote:Renting a hotel room is signing a contract. The Avenue Inn contract almost certainly doesn't say that "If you are damaging the room you may be held criminally liable on charges of vandalism", so the police took the position that this overrides the ordinary criminal offense of vandalism (which is a crime in Canada, by the way). I guess this is one unforeseen consequence of the fetish for contract and property rights- it allows them to override criminal penalties.
Hotel contracts don't normally allow for the hotel to cover acts of deliberate vandalism by the guest, or situations where the guest is at fault.

And this bit right here:
I guess this is one unforeseen consequence of the fetish for contract and property rights- it allows them to override criminal penalties.
...is ridiculously ignorant.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Bakustra »

Sample Hotel Contract wrote:5) The convention shall not be held responsible for any damage done by non-attendees during, prior to, or after the run of the convention.

By agreement, damage, if any, to the convention Hospitality Suite or function areas under committee control will be charged to the Master Account.
I'm sorry, you were saying?
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Lord Zentei »

Link
§ 8 Obligations of the Party
8.1 The Party shall be obliged to pay the agreed remuneration plus any extra amounts
that have arisen from the use of special services by the Party and/or the accompanying
guests plus any applicable VAT by the date of departure at the latest.
8.2 The Proprietor shall not be obliged to accept foreign currencies. If the Proprietor
accepts foreign currencies, such shall be accepted at the current price if possible.
If the Proprietor accepts foreign currencies or cashless means of payment, the
Party shall pay any associated costs, e.g. for inquiries with credit card companies,
telegrams etc.
8.3 The Party shall be liable towards the Proprietor for any damage caused by themselves
or the Guest or any other persons that receive services of the Proprietor
with the knowledge or in accordance with the intention of the Party.
Right back at you. What are you doing quoting a clause speaking of non-attendees? What does that have to do with this case, since the students were the ones who had rented those rooms?
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Bakustra »

You're not disagreeing with me, you idiot- both of them are talking about financial liability, and you didn't even bother to read the second sentence or follow a fucking link. Christ, I feel like I should be hitting the report button, because it sure as hell would seem like you're playing dumb just to take shots at me if I had any respect for you as a human being.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Rogue 9 »

In what way does any of this exempt vandals from vandalism charges, anyway? Civil liability doesn't excuse criminal conduct, at least under U.S. law.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Lord Zentei »

^It doesn't exempt them.
Bakustra wrote:You're not disagreeing with me, you idiot- both of them are talking about financial liability, and you didn't even bother to read the second sentence or follow a fucking link. Christ, I feel like I should be hitting the report button, because it sure as hell would seem like you're playing dumb just to take shots at me if I had any respect for you as a human being.
Wow, paranoia much? And of course, if you're going to point fingers, your whining doesn't seem like you're pursuing a vendetta at all? :roll:
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Might there be some laws about 'criminal mischief' which would apply in this circumstance?
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

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Lord Zentei wrote:^It doesn't exempt them.
Bakustra wrote:You're not disagreeing with me, you idiot- both of them are talking about financial liability, and you didn't even bother to read the second sentence or follow a fucking link. Christ, I feel like I should be hitting the report button, because it sure as hell would seem like you're playing dumb just to take shots at me if I had any respect for you as a human being.
Wow, paranoia much? And of course, if you're going to point fingers, your whining doesn't seem like you're pursuing a vendetta at all? :roll:
There is a little thing that people use called "hyperbole". I used it to take two shots at you for posting something that agreed with me while angrily disagreeing with me. The first was to suggest that it was so dumb that you had to be pretending, the second that you're so utterly contemptuous that you would be sincere. I'm sorry that you didn't get that. Maybe I'll lift up a manhole and go down to your level by calling you a poophead or something. (This was another hyperbolic insult, suggesting that you are figuratively a child in your ability to understand things, and the whole post is a gigantic meta-insult on the same theme.)
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Lord Zentei »

It seems that you still believe that civil liability exempt people from vandalism charges. Or failing that, based on your most recent response here, it would seem that you're trolling in this thread.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Vendetta »

Rogue 9 wrote:In what way does any of this exempt vandals from vandalism charges, anyway? Civil liability doesn't excuse criminal conduct, at least under U.S. law.
If the motel operator can pursue and receive damages in a civil suit (which, if they have a well written conduct policy for customers may be easy for them), they may see no need to raise a criminal suit (which may be long and expensive).

If there's a clause in the agreement you sign up for, explicitly or implicitly by paying for a room, that says "you agree not to wreck our shit" and you wreck their shit, turns out you might get done harder than the criminal court would allow...
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Simon_Jester »

Vendetta wrote:If the motel operator can pursue and receive damages in a civil suit (which, if they have a well written conduct policy for customers may be easy for them), they may see no need to raise a criminal suit (which may be long and expensive).

If there's a clause in the agreement you sign up for, explicitly or implicitly by paying for a room, that says "you agree not to wreck our shit" and you wreck their shit, turns out you might get done harder than the criminal court would allow...
Yes, but none of that means the police suddenly don't have jurisdiction to arrest a pack of vandals. Or that the vandals are immune from police action by virtue of having signed a contract agreeing to pay for the damages they do to the building.

The owner may decline to press criminal charges in hopes of skinning them alive in civil court. He has that choice. But that hardly means he shouldn't be able call the police to stop the vandals from tearing his building down.

That's just silly.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by SVPD »

Rogue 9 wrote:In what way does any of this exempt vandals from vandalism charges, anyway? Civil liability doesn't excuse criminal conduct, at least under U.S. law.
Quite true. In the U.S., the police could certainly arrest them for Criminal Mischief, Criminal Damaging, or Vandalism depending on what state it was and which one applied. Canadian law may be different. It also may depend on exactly what was conveyed to the police; if you, for example, go to the hotel room and someone accidentally knocks the TV on the floor and break it, the police are not going to show up and arrest you for vandalism.

In the U.S., however, what the police cannot do is force the perpetrator to pay for the damage. Recovery of damage is a civil matter, or it's ordered by the judge after a finding of criminal guilt as restitution, but either way the police cannot go tell those doing the damage that they have to pay up.

There's also the fact that once you've rented a room from and innkeeper, it's a private space you've rented and the police cannot just go in there because the innkeeper says they can. That's a violation of the Fourth Amendment in the U.S. In order to go in and arrest the kids for.. well, for anything, the police need to have probable cause, and that may or may not have been satisfied by the information conveyed to them.

This also is in Canada, and I can't speak to Canadian search and seizure laws, probable cause requirements, or what Canadian courts may have ruled in regards to the privacy expectations in a temporarily-rented space like a motel room. Presumably, however, the Canadian police do know this and as far as they could tell, they did not have the legal authority to do anything.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

The title is inaccurate, since these are high school students. Unless the age of adulthood was ratcheted back while I wasn't looking, these are just children.

Really, I don't actually understand how 'teenagers are prone to impulsive, destructive, herd-following behaviour, probably especially after a semi-formal dance left them all energized and horny' is news. OH MY GOD KIDS THESE DAYS.
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Simon_Jester »

SVPD wrote:Quite true. In the U.S., the police could certainly arrest them for Criminal Mischief, Criminal Damaging, or Vandalism depending on what state it was and which one applied. Canadian law may be different. It also may depend on exactly what was conveyed to the police; if you, for example, go to the hotel room and someone accidentally knocks the TV on the floor and break it, the police are not going to show up and arrest you for vandalism.

In the U.S., however, what the police cannot do is force the perpetrator to pay for the damage. Recovery of damage is a civil matter, or it's ordered by the judge after a finding of criminal guilt as restitution, but either way the police cannot go tell those doing the damage that they have to pay up.
Sure- but I think the innkeeper's main concern was getting the trashing to stop; the teenagers were smashing up his property all night. Every hour they spent breaking things probably added thousands more dollars to his repair bill.
There's also the fact that once you've rented a room from and innkeeper, it's a private space you've rented and the police cannot just go in there because the innkeeper says they can. That's a violation of the Fourth Amendment in the U.S. In order to go in and arrest the kids for.. well, for anything, the police need to have probable cause, and that may or may not have been satisfied by the information conveyed to them.
I would think that "they're tearing the light fixtures out of the walls and pissing on the beds" from an eyewitness would constitute probable cause for vandalism. Am I mistaken?
This also is in Canada, and I can't speak to Canadian search and seizure laws, probable cause requirements, or what Canadian courts may have ruled in regards to the privacy expectations in a temporarily-rented space like a motel room. Presumably, however, the Canadian police do know this and as far as they could tell, they did not have the legal authority to do anything.
This is just... weird. And I don't think it has anything to do with "oh well the contract-fetishizers signed a contract agreeing to pay for damages, which makes the police powerless!"
Destructionator XIII wrote:I think it might. I'm pretty sure it isn't vandalism to destroy your own property.

When you rent a place, the property owner is extending his rights to you. This isn't entirely selective either; there's laws that say they have certain obligations too, like not being able to evict you without notice and due process.

But, if the property owner is allowed to destroy his own property, and you're there sharing in the property owner's rights... doesn't it follow that you have the right to destroy that property too?
I wouldn't think that's necessarily so. Especially not if what you're renting is a hotel room, which is an explicitly temporary arrangement in which the agreement you sign is designed in large part to protect the permanent owner's rights and property.

I know I wouldn't want to set up a contract by which I give people renting rooms from me overnight carte blanche to destructively "remodel" the place as long as they pay for it... eventually.



edit: to clarify, if I started modifying the place I'm renting, I'm *pretty* sure that the police can't stop me; it's my private home now and I have a lot of rights inside as a renter. Though the landlady could sue the crap out of me for the damage (including an eviction in court, enforced by the police if it came to that, and, of course, and keeping my security deposit) /edit


That's where the contract comes in. Now, the dispute is between two private citizens: yes, I'm letting you use my building, but if you break this shit, you're going to pay for it too.



Now, I don't know about Canadian law, but I'm sure the police up there do... really, the burden of proof is on all of you to show that under the law in Niagra Falls, that this actually is a criminal offense in a rental situation.[/quote]
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Grumman
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Grumman »

Destructionator XIII wrote:But, if the property owner is allowed to destroy his own property, and you're there sharing in the property owner's rights... doesn't it follow that you have the right to destroy that property too?
Absolutely not. I'd think it was self evident that you could give someone some rights to a piece of property, without jumping straight to joint ownership. It's like saying that borrowing a library book gives you the legal right to set it on fire.
Simon_Jester
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Simon_Jester »

That said, I'm not sure exactly what the legalities are in Canada- it just seems like a breach of common sense to have laws that do not require police to respond to someone actually phoning them from the hotel and reporting a crime in progress. There may be details we don't know that got hidden in the report, like the police being busy or the hotel owner reporting the vandalism in a way that caused ambiguity, and I'd almost hope so because I don't like to think the Canadian legal code is that messed up.
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Eulogy
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Eulogy »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Why shame on the police? Given your posting history in police related threads I thought you wanted the police to act within their scope of authority?

If you read the entire article the police Sgt. explains the authority police have in these types of situations and that authority appears to be little to none. The problem is with Canadian legislature. In Utah we have a law called the Inn Keepers Rights Act which the Inn Keeper has the right to evict those he/she reasonable feels is engaged in criminal activity, violating hotel rules, or in this case excessive property damage and it also gives the police the power to enforce that decision. We kick people out of hotel rooms all the time.

Now if Canada does have something like that and the police didn't take action when help was requested then yeah they should be held responsible.
First, there were like 30 of the little shits there. You honestly expect hotel staff to enforce rules on all of them at once? Especially given what influence they were under?

Second, you are seriously telling me that the police cannot intervene when some bastards are wrecking your shit, impoversihing you, and quite possibly putting your life in danger. :wtf: By that logic, calling 911 is useless when a gang is defacing and smashing your house or ruining your shop.
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Eulogy
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Re: Manchildren trash hotel; police do nothing

Post by Eulogy »

Ghetto edit:
And if there's a law against that? Well, the police should have intervened anyway, because that law is clearly FUBAR and is unjust; any government dickwads that raise a stink about that law not being followed will have the public turned against them.*

That situation can very very easily turn lethal. All it took was one fucker bringing a gun or setting the place on fire. Don't tell me the cops shouldn't arrest the vandals.

*No, this is NOT the cops only applying the law when it suits them. This is about doing what's right, and when they look like heroes (and honestly, cops these days need the PR) what sane government ass is going to try to enforce the bullshit law?
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
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