Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

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Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Thanas »

....whenever and wherever we want.
U.S. defends unilateral capture or kill doctrine

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. will keep targeting al-Qaida anywhere in the world, including in countries unable or unwilling to do it themselves, the top U.S. counter terror official said Friday.

White House counter terror chief John Brennan laid out what could be called the Osama bin Laden raid doctrine, in remarks at Harvard Law School. He says under international law, the U.S. can protect itself with pre-emptive action against suspects the U.S. believes present an imminent threat, wherever they are.

That amounts to a legal defense of the unilateral Navy SEAL raid into Pakistan that killed al-Qaida mastermind bin Laden in May, angering Pakistan. It also explains the thinking behind other covert counterterrorist action, like the CIA’s armed drone campaign that only this week killed a top al-Qaida operative in Pakistan’s tribal areas. The Obama administration has quadrupled drone strikes against al-Qaida targets since taking office.

The Obama administration has more recently expanded drone strikes and the occasional special-operations raid into areas like Somalia, where the weak government may be willing to fight al-Qaida but lacks the resources. Navy SEALs targeted al-Qaida operative Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan in Somalia in 2009, by helicopter. The SEALs then landed to pick up his body and bury it at sea, just as bin Laden was later interred.

“We reserve the right to take unilateral action if or when other governments are unwilling or unable to take the necessary actions themselves,” Brennan said.


Yet Brennan followed that by saying that does not mean the U.S. can use military force “whenever we want, wherever we want. International legal principles, including respect for a state’s sovereignty and the laws of war, impose important constraints on our ability to act unilaterally.”

Brennan did not explain how that constraint applied, when the U.S. Navy SEALs entered Pakistani territory to go after Bin Laden, without Pakistani government knowledge or permission.

There you have it folks.

At the same time, Obama is building a new massive torture base indefinite detention facility at Bagram.
As the Obama administration announced plans for hundreds of billions of dollars more in domestic budget cuts, it late last week solicited bids for the construction of a massive new prison in Bagram, Afghanistan. Posted on the aptly named FedBizOps.Gov website which it uses to announce new privatized spending projects, the administration unveiled plans for "the construction of Detention Facility in Parwan (DFIP), Bagram, Afghanistan" which includes "detainee housing capability for approximately 2000 detainees." It will also feature "guard towers, administrative facility and Vehicle/Personnel Access Control Gates, security surveillance and restricted access systems." The announcement provided: "the estimated cost of the project is between $25,000,000 to $100,000,000."

In the U.S., prisons are so wildly overcrowded that courts are ordering them to release inmates en masse because conditions are so inhumane as to be unconstitutional (today, the FBI documented that a drug arrest occurs in the U.S. once every 19 seconds, but as everyone knows, only insane extremists and frivolous potheads advocate an end to that war). In the U.S., budgetary constraints are so severe that entire grades are being eliminated, the use of street lights restricted, and the most basic services abolished for the nation's neediest. But the U.S. proposes to spend up to $100 million on a sprawling new prison in Afghanistan.

Budgetary madness to the side, this is going to be yet another addition to what Human Rights First recently documented is the oppressive, due-process-free prison regime the U.S. continues to maintain around the world:
"
Ten years after the September 11 attacks, few Americans realize that the United States is still imprisoning more than 2800 men outside the United States without charge or trial. Sprawling U.S. military prisons have become part of the post-9/11 landscape, and the concept of "indefinite detention" -- previously foreign to our system of government -- has meant that such prisons, and their captives, could remain a legacy of the 9/11 attacks and the "war on terror" for the indefinite future. . . . .

The secrecy surrounding the U.S. prison in Afghanistan makes it impossible for the public to judge whether those imprisoned there deserve to be there. What’s more, because much of the military's evidence against them is classified, the detainees themselves have no right to see it. So although detainees at Bagram are now entitled to hearings at the prison every six months, they're often not allowed to confront the evidence against them. As a result, they have no real opportunity to contest it."

In one of the first moves signalling just how closely the Obama administration intended to track its predecessor in these areas, it won the right to hold Bagram prisoners without any habeas corpus rights, successfully arguing that the Supreme Court's Boumediene decision -- which candidate Obama cheered because it guaranteed habeas rights to Guantanamo detainees -- was inapplicable to Bagram.
Numerous groups doing field work in Afghanistan have documented that the maintenance of these prisons is a leading recruitment tool for the Taliban and a prime source of anti-American hatred. Despite that fact -- or, more accurately (as usual), because of it -- the U.S. is now going to build a brand new, enormous prison there.

One last point: recall how many people insisted that the killing of Osama bin Laden would lead to a drawdown in the War on Terror generally and the war in Afghanistan specifically. Since then -- in just four months since bin Laden's corpse was dumped into the ocean -- the U.S. has done the following: renewed the Patriot Act for four years with no reforms; significantly escalated drone attacks in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan; tried to assassinate U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no due process; indicted a 24-year-old Muslim for "material support for Terrorism" for uploading an anti-American YouTube clip after he talked to the son of a Terrorist leader; pressured Iraq to keep U.S. troops in that country; argued that it has the virtually unlimited right to kill anyone it wants anywhere in the world; and now finalized plans to build a sprawling new prison in Afghanistan. If that's winding things down, I sure would hate to see what a redoubling of the American commitment to Endless War looks like.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Enigma »

Anyone that expects change for the better by a politician are fools. Most of them are corrupt to the core and overshadow those that truly try to help the people.

Just about all of them are the same once elected. "In comes the new guy. Same as the old guy."
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Master of Ossus »

I see you're not finished bullshitting about the legality of the US War on Terror, Thanas.

Here is the full text of what Brennan said.
First, our definition of the conflict. As the President has said many times, we are at war with al-Qa’ida. In an indisputable act of aggression, al-Qa’ida attacked our nation and killed nearly 3,000 innocent people. And as we were reminded just last weekend, al-Qa’ida seeks to attack us again. Our ongoing armed conflict with al-Qa’ida stems from our right—recognized under international law—to self defense.

An area in which there is some disagreement is the geographic scope of the conflict. The United States does not view our authority to use military force against al-Qa’ida as being restricted solely to “hot” battlefields like Afghanistan. Because we are engaged in an armed conflict with al-Qa’ida, the United States takes the legal position that —in accordance with international law—we have the authority to take action against al-Qa’ida and its associated forces without doing a separate self-defense analysis each time. And as President Obama has stated on numerous occasions, we reserve the right to take unilateral action if or when other governments are unwilling or unable to take the necessary actions themselves.

That does not mean we can use military force whenever we want, wherever we want. International legal principles, including respect for a state’s sovereignty and the laws of war, impose important constraints on our ability to act unilaterally—and on the way in which we can use force—in foreign territories.

Others in the international community—including some of our closest allies and partners—take a different view of the geographic scope of the conflict, limiting it only to the “hot” battlefields. As such, they argue that, outside of these two active theatres, the United States can only act in self-defense against al-Qa’ida when they are planning, engaging in, or threatening an armed attack against U.S. interests if it amounts to an “imminent” threat.

In practice, the U.S. approach to targeting in the conflict with al-Qa’ida is far more aligned with our allies’ approach than many assume. This Administration’s counterterrorism efforts outside of Afghanistan and Iraq are focused on those individuals who are a threat to the United States, whose removal would cause a significant – even if only temporary – disruption of the plans and capabilities of al-Qa’ida and its associated forces. Practically speaking, then, the question turns principally on how you define “imminence.”

We are finding increasing recognition in the international community that a more flexible understanding of “imminence” may be appropriate when dealing with terrorist groups, in part because threats posed by non-state actors do not present themselves in the ways that evidenced imminence in more traditional conflicts. After all, al-Qa’ida does not follow a traditional command structure, wear uniforms, carry its arms openly, or mass its troops at the borders of the nations it attacks. Nonetheless, it possesses the demonstrated capability to strike with little notice and cause significant civilian or military casualties. Over time, an increasing number of our international counterterrorism partners have begun to recognize that the traditional conception of what constitutes an “imminent” attack should be broadened in light of the modern-day capabilities, techniques, and technological innovations of terrorist organizations.
I took the liberty of bolding the section which might be of particular interest to some morons on the board who may characterize this speech as promoting the idea that the US feels entitled to kill anybody we want "whenever and wherever we want."

As for the article's claim that "Brennan did not explain how that constraint applied, when the U.S. Navy SEALs entered Pakistani territory to go after Bin Laden, without Pakistani government knowledge or permission," that has been discussed in the past: it didn't apply, because Pakistan was not willing and able to go after bin Laden. This was the express reason for not telling Pakistan about the raid.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Count Chocula »

Wait, what...we're opening a new "detainee" base in Afghanistan? The whole place is landlocked and we do our fucking resupply by air. But that's just expensive logistics. More troublesome, this indicates that Obama and his coterie have NO intention of actually leaving Afghanistan at any time in the foreseeable future. That blows.

I can actually understand our willingness to play whack-a-mole with positively identified Al Quaeda as long as we have agreements to do so with the states in which we find them. If a state like, say, Syria or Iran is shielding AQ and won't let us take them down, wayul thenn we know for sure where they stand. We seem to have a "get the AQ in our territory where we can't/won't and we'll act butthurt for appearances' sake but keep letting you do it, as long as you don't FUCKING KILL INNOCENT PAKISTANI CIVILIANS!!!" agreement with, err, Pakistan, but we keep fucking that up too because we insist on using drones and incomplete intelligence. Except for the bin Laden raid. Smart idea, dumb and damaging execution on our part.

I don't think it's smart for us to double down on Gitmo and do it in a state where The One said we'd pull out our troops. Is this a forever war, for fuck's sake? Who are YOU voting for in 2012?
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by weemadando »

MoO. I think you'll find that military force is a fucking weasel word bit of bullshit.

Sure, we didn't use military force, it was a CIA operated drone. That's not really military, so we've kept our word.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Master of Ossus »

weemadando wrote:MoO. I think you'll find that military force is a fucking weasel word bit of bullshit.

Sure, we didn't use military force, it was a CIA operated drone. That's not really military, so we've kept our word.
Wrong. Military force, in this context, is broader than the use of the US military. It refers to all applications of force by agents of the United States under the privilege of national self-defense which is afforded during armed conflicts.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

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That does not mean we can use military force whenever we want, wherever we want. International legal principles, including respect for a state’s sovereignty and the laws of war, impose important constraints on our ability to act unilaterally—and on the way in which we can use force—in foreign territories.

Others in the international community—including some of our closest allies and partners—take a different view of the geographic scope of the conflict, limiting it only to the “hot” battlefields. As such, they argue that, outside of these two active theatres, the United States can only act in self-defense against al-Qa’ida when they are planning, engaging in, or threatening an armed attack against U.S. interests if it amounts to an “imminent” threat.

In practice, the U.S. approach to targeting in the conflict with al-Qa’ida is far more aligned with our allies’ approach than many assume. This Administration’s counterterrorism efforts outside of Afghanistan and Iraq are focused on those individuals who are a threat to the United States, whose removal would cause a significant – even if only temporary – disruption of the plans and capabilities of al-Qa’ida and its associated forces. Practically speaking, then, the question turns principally on how you define “imminence.”
Two counter cases for your argument MoO:

Our government illegally kidnapped a german citizen (Khalid El-Masri) on the Macedonian border, held and tortured him (including rape) in Afghanistan for four months before they realized they had someone who was not their target, and then did not even bother to repatriate him. They left him on a desolate road in Albania with no money to return home. We then denied him justice in our courts, and forced germany to not issue INTERPOL warrants against the kidnapping rapists who did this to him.

Then there was the business of one of our own citizens who we ordered captured in Yemen, where the 18 year old boy was tortured, and then put on a no-fly list denying him Right of Return.

How exactly does this Jive with the idea that the united states respects "International legal principles, including respect for a state’s sovereignty and the laws of war" at all? When even our own laws are placed in a shredder and then thrown into Charybdis?
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Eulogy »

I don't care how powerful the US is right now. They are the fucking Gestapo. And this WILL bite their testicles and rip them off, and it's only a matter of time.

The fact that the US is very rotten and will continue to rot practically guaratness this, and when the US collapses the other countries may very well decend upon it like lions and exact retribution for the evils it did. And nobody will sympathize.

It happened to Rome. It happened to Britain. Don't think it won't happen, that the world's biggest and quite sadistic bully won't get its comeuppance.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Simon_Jester »

Eulogy wrote:I don't care how powerful the US is right now. They are the fucking Gestapo. And this WILL bite their testicles and rip them off, and it's only a matter of time.

The fact that the US is very rotten and will continue to rot practically guaratness this, and when the US collapses the other countries may very well decend upon it like lions and exact retribution for the evils it did. And nobody will sympathize.

It happened to Rome. It happened to Britain. Don't think it won't happen, that the world's biggest and quite sadistic bully won't get its comeuppance.
It didn't happen to Rome, and it didn't happen to Britain. Rome was dismantled by peoples who had little or no history of real oppression at Roman hands, because they came from outside the Empire and took it apart as they marched inward. Britain was never invaded, bombarded, or otherwise materially harmed by the fall of its empire either- British people in the colonies might be inconvenienced, harmed, impoverished, even killed, but Britain itself was in no way "torn apart."
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Eulogy »

It's hyperbole, Simon. I know that Britain isn't a huge smoking crater in the ground, or a Thrid World country. But just like Britain, it is highly improbable that the US will ever again enjoy the relative respect and power it once did. Also, I wouldn't count out all the enemies the US made, the abysmal reputation it has now, and simple human hatred; times are very different.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Uraniun235 »

Eulogy wrote:I don't care how powerful the US is right now. They are the fucking Gestapo. And this WILL bite their testicles and rip them off, and it's only a matter of time.

The fact that the US is very rotten and will continue to rot practically guaratness this, and when the US collapses the other countries may very well decend upon it like lions and exact retribution for the evils it did. And nobody will sympathize.

It happened to Rome. It happened to Britain. Don't think it won't happen, that the world's biggest and quite sadistic bully won't get its comeuppance.
Rome and Britain didn't have massive nuclear arsenals ready to lash out at their enemies. You might not want that day of reckoning to come within your lifetime.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

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Uraniun235 wrote:Rome and Britain didn't have massive nuclear arsenals ready to lash out at their enemies. You might not want that day of reckoning to come within your lifetime.
Did I say a nuclear apocalypse is a good thing? The US is digging itself a deeper and deeper hole, and reckoning is inevitable. It will get ugly, and I have no doubt that it will get worse before it gets better.

What I really would have wanted is for fucking 9/11 to never have happened. I can dream. :(
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Uraniun235 »

No, you didn't say it would be good, but what you did say appeared to neglect it as a possible consequence of the retribution you envision. Or alternately, as a possible deterrent against that same retribution.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

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Master of Ossus wrote:I see you're not finished bullshitting about the legality of the US War on Terror, Thanas.

Here is the full text of what Brennan said.
First, our definition of the conflict. As the President has said many times, we are at war with al-Qa’ida. In an indisputable act of aggression, al-Qa’ida attacked our nation and killed nearly 3,000 innocent people. And as we were reminded just last weekend, al-Qa’ida seeks to attack us again. Our ongoing armed conflict with al-Qa’ida stems from our right—recognized under international law—to self defense.

An area in which there is some disagreement is the geographic scope of the conflict. The United States does not view our authority to use military force against al-Qa’ida as being restricted solely to “hot” battlefields like Afghanistan. Because we are engaged in an armed conflict with al-Qa’ida, the United States takes the legal position that —in accordance with international law—we have the authority to take action against al-Qa’ida and its associated forces without doing a separate self-defense analysis each time. And as President Obama has stated on numerous occasions, we reserve the right to take unilateral action if or when other governments are unwilling or unable to take the necessary actions themselves.
Bolded stuff before. What else does this mean except that the US is both determining when other Governments are "unable" and also the sole beneficiary of such an action? This is akin to a robber being given the right to determine whether he owns the stuff he took.
That does not mean we can use military force whenever we want, wherever we want. International legal principles, including respect for a state’s sovereignty and the laws of war, impose important constraints on our ability to act unilaterally—and on the way in which we can use force—in foreign territories.
And the US has ever held itself to such a restraint when? :lol: This if hilarious.
I took the liberty of bolding the section which might be of particular interest to some morons on the board who may characterize this speech as promoting the idea that the US feels entitled to kill anybody we want "whenever and wherever we want."

Yet you missed the sentence above.
As for the article's claim that "Brennan did not explain how that constraint applied, when the U.S. Navy SEALs entered Pakistani territory to go after Bin Laden, without Pakistani government knowledge or permission," that has been discussed in the past: it didn't apply, because Pakistan was not willing and able to go after bin Laden. This was the express reason for not telling Pakistan about the raid.
And this comes down to an academic dispute of what you value more - ypur own security or the sovereignty of others. Naturally the US values the latter more despite there being no precedents of this "doctrine" being used to justify a use of military force in an assssination in all of 400 years. Colour me unimpressed.

In fact, this is a direct application of the doctrine of "we are going to do what we want to do if you do not want to do what we want you to do".
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

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Simon_Jester wrote:It didn't happen to Rome, and it didn't happen to Britain. Rome was dismantled by peoples who had little or no history of real oppression at Roman hands, because they came from outside the Empire and took it apart as they marched inward.
This statement is one of utter ignorance.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:It didn't happen to Rome, and it didn't happen to Britain. Rome was dismantled by peoples who had little or no history of real oppression at Roman hands, because they came from outside the Empire and took it apart as they marched inward.
This statement is one of utter ignorance.
So, I am wrong, and the Franks, Visigoths, Huns, and other such people had in fact been oppressed by Roman rule before they started conquering large swathes of the Roman Empire for themselves.

All right. I'm not going to try to get into a debating match over it; it would seem I was simply wrong.

Would you care to comment on whether I was similarly wrong about the British Empire?
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by MarshalPurnell »

Yes, the Soviet Union certainly paid a very stiff price for sending out hit squads to murder dissidents in the 1930s and 1950s, and for supporting efforts by other Warsaw Pact countries to do so in the 1970s. Iran has certainly suffered for murdering people in the heart of the EU. Israel certainly really regrets sending letter bombs to Damascus and Beirut to kill Palestinian terrorists, taking Adolf Eichmann out of Argentina without an extradition hearing, and making that commando raid on Entebbe Airport. And I bet Turkey feels really bad about what happened when they seized Abdullah Ocalan in Kenya. I can only imagine the remorse that Vladimir Putin feels for ordering the car-bombing of Chechen leaders in Dubai, and the poisoning of Litvinenko's tea.

States will lash out at their enemies where they can, if the costs are low enough. By knowingly harboring terrorists the "victim" state, like Pakistan, is a de facto accomplice to whatever the terrorists are doing. If on the other hand the harboring state is so incapable of exerting authority in an area that the terrorists can do whatever they want, like in Somalia or Yemen, it has no real jurisdiction over the territory anyway. In both cases striking against the terrorists is a pretty clearly cut case of self-defense. Even in the far more cynical case of murdering dissidents, which has been engaged in by a variety of dictatorships, the consequences are only what other states will hold them to. And if third-rate dictatorships like Iran or Stroessner's Paraguay or the junta-run Argentina can murder dissidents abroad with impunity, the United States hunting down terrorists in failed states is not likely to provoke a serious pushback.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Master of Ossus »

Thanas wrote:Bolded stuff before. What else does this mean except that the US is both determining when other Governments are "unable" and also the sole beneficiary of such an action? This is akin to a robber being given the right to determine whether he owns the stuff he took.
:lol:

Amazing way to stick your foot in your mouth while your head is up your ass.

Welcome to the concept of animus furandi, bitch.
And the US has ever held itself to such a restraint when? :lol: This if hilarious.
Uh... Mexico, anyone?
Yet you missed the sentence above.
Which says absolutely nothing like what you claimed it did. The very idea that you would take a speech by a member of the Administration that explains how US policy is consistent with international law to mean that the US is deliberately disregarding it is an inescapable paradox of your position.
And this comes down to an academic dispute of what you value more - ypur own security or the sovereignty of others. Naturally the US values the latter more despite there being no precedents of this "doctrine" being used to justify a use of military force in an assssination in all of 400 years. Colour me unimpressed.
I think you mean "the former," but the US has expressly laid out the circumstances in which its right to self-defense permits it to temporarily infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations--it draws the line where international law draws the line (i.e., when a host nation is unable or unwilling to address nonstate groups with which the US is engaged in an ongoing armed conflict within its borders).

Moreover, there are numerous precedents for this doctrine being applied by other nations, many of them quite spectacular (i.e., the Israeli Operation Spring of Youth and Operation Jonathan, Turkish operations into Northern Iraq (this is hardly the first example), the Colombian Operacion Fenix, Selous Scout operations into Botswana, and SAS operations outside of Rhodesia, to name but a very few.

If you don't like the War on Terror, fine, but don't pretend that it's illegal when it's not.
In fact, this is a direct application of the doctrine of "we are going to do what we want to do if you do not want to do what we want you to do".
No it's not--it's the exact opposite--it's an explanation of how the US's actions are consistent with international law. You keep championing respect for international law, but in fact you completely ignore that law and show blatant disrespect for it. Your conclusions are actually in direct conflict with that law: because you do not understand what that law states, you cannot acknowledge the fact that it expressly permits international counter-terrorism under certain circumstances, and does not hold national sovereignty as some absolute shield absent any international obligations.

What you're actually after is for international law to be completely remolded in the form that you're projecting, which is about as blatantly disrespectful of that body of law as it's possible to be. The only thing that separates you from an anarchist is that you want to fill the ensuing void with what you want the law to be, rather than anything with any relationship with existing laws.

To summarize: If Thanas were to set international law, then the US's activities with regards to the War on Terror would all be illegal (seemingly not because of any pre-established legal boundaries but rather because Thanas would simply outlaw whatever the US was trying to do). But Thanas does not create international law and the law, and American policy has been consciously crafted to fit squarely within the boundaries that international law establishes, as the speech details.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

I cannot say I'm surprised. If anyone is not convinced, by now, that Obama is Bush 2.0 in so many ways, I truly wonder what it would take.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Thanas »

Master of Ossus wrote::lol:

Amazing way to stick your foot in your mouth while your head is up your ass.

Welcome to the concept of animus furandi, bitch.
Way to miss the point, idiot. The robber still does not make the legla determination if his actions were lawful.
Uh... Mexico, anyone?
You will now demonstrate how the situation in Mexico is the same as in Pakistan.
Which says absolutely nothing like what you claimed it did. The very idea that you would take a speech by a member of the Administration that explains how US policy is consistent with international law to mean that the US is deliberately disregarding it is an inescapable paradox of your position.
Only if you interpret his words in a most hilarious fashion. "We reserve the right to commit unilateral action whenever we determine you to not be helpful. Of course we are going to be bound by international law, which of course is interpreted by us as you having to be helpful to us. Of course the nation who determines you to be helpful or not is...us, the same nation that bombs you."

Nice doublespeak.

Tell me, do you support the right of Iraq to land in your country and assassinate Bush? After all, the US has not given any indication that it will be helpful to extraditing him. And he has admittedly committed much worse crimes than Al-Quida against Iraq. So.....what now? Or does this law only apply to the USA?

Going even further, you do realize how this is essentially a law by the strong for the strong, right?
I think you mean "the former," but the US has expressly laid out the circumstances in which its right to self-defense permits it to temporarily infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations--it draws the line where international law draws the line (i.e., when a host nation is unable or unwilling to address nonstate groups with which the US is engaged in an ongoing armed conflict within its borders).

Moreover, there are numerous precedents for this doctrine being applied by other nations, many of them quite spectacular (i.e., the Israeli Operation Spring of Youth and Operation Jonathan, Turkish operations into Northern Iraq (this is hardly the first example), the Colombian Operacion Fenix, Selous Scout operations into Botswana, and SAS operations outside of Rhodesia, to name but a very few.
And you'll note how even those were described as "serious violations of state sovereignty". Again, this is nothing new and just beacause people keep claiming that it is legal does not make it so per se.
No it's not--it's the exact opposite--it's an explanation of how the US's actions are consistent with international law. You keep championing respect for international law, but in fact you completely ignore that law and show blatant disrespect for it. Your conclusions are actually in direct conflict with that law: because you do not understand what that law states, you cannot acknowledge the fact that it expressly permits international counter-terrorism under certain circumstances, and does not hold national sovereignty as some absolute shield absent any international obligations.
It does not expressly permits violation of state sovereignty except in the very small situation of the state itself preparing to harm the US. The US cannot simultaneously claim a state its ally and then completely go and spew all over its sovereignty. Not until that state gives consent, like Yemen did for example.
To summarize: If Thanas were to set international law, then the US's activities with regards to the War on Terror would all be illegal (seemingly not because of any pre-established legal boundaries but rather because Thanas would simply outlaw whatever the S was trying to do). But Thanas does not create international law and the law, and American policy has been consciously crafted to fit squarely within the boundaries that international law establishes, as the speech details.
Want to try any more Ad hominems? How about this one: Ossus wants to create KZs for people who do not like what the US is doing. Beause that is about on the same level as your bile right there.

And you are one to preach about US caring so much for legality when considering Guantanamo bay is still not closed.


For the record because I know you are not one to get things without people throwing rocks at you:
- War in Afghanistan: Legal
- war in Iraq: illegal war of aggression
- using drones: depending on target
- using commandos to kill Al-Quida in warzones: Depending on individual execution, general principle not illegal
- invading an Ally to kill people there without allies consent: Illegal.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Winston Blake »

Master of Ossus, I would like to hear your views on the legality of the following scenario. This isn't some kind of 'ooh gotcha reversal', I would just be somewhat surprised if this was actually perfectly legal under international law.

Let's say China is fighting some kind of terrorist separatist group, which uses a leaderless resistance model. Cells spread to various other countries to conduct fundraising rackets, etc. China claims that some of the cells are in America. America investigates and denies this. China claims that the U.S. is 'unwilling' to take action. It presents intelligence which is either trivial or ambiguous, and refuses to share detailed information due to 'national security restrictions' and 'suspicions that factions in the U.S. govmt are co-operating with the terrorists'. One day it sends special forces and stealth drones into various rural and remote areas of America, kidnapping some number of American citizens and killing bystanders. China declares that its counter-terrorism and legislative experts have determined that these were real terrorists and the raids were perfectly legal under international law. They are detained indefinitely without trial, and leaks reveal routine torture.

Is this, in fact, legal? Obviously this would be considered an act of war, but is the threat of retaliation really the *only* thing stopping countries from doing things like this? If America was unwilling to initiate nuclear war with China over a 'mere' few dozen American deaths and kidnappings, is it conceivable that this would just die down after a few years and nothing would happen?

(I would only be a little bit surprised if this was possible. The more I happen to learn about international law the more I feel that it's a bunch of castles built on air. Sometimes it seems to me that the only thing that has changed since the days of squabbling autocracies is that a veneer of co-operation has become accepted as economically favourable for all.)
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ossus already said that he would support the assassination of Posada Carilles and, by that logic, Bush as well, if that was carried out with little collateral damage.

So at least he's honest. Everybody has the right to assasinate everybody. :luv:
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Skgoa »

While I humbly refuse to recognise Stas's persuasive argument as international law, its worth noting that we aren't talking about a (more or less legal) action to uphold law and order, that has been taken after all other alternatives have been tried. We are talking about BOMBING BROWN PEOPLE and KIDNAPPING BROWN PEOPLE FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES TO BE TORTURED and both is being justified with the flimsiest of evidence. This is so far outside the realm of legal or justifiable, its really strange - for me as a european - how there can till be people who defend these practises. Especially since if the invasion of AFG was legal*, it sets the precedent of a country having to actually invade and spread law and order by themselves, if they are unhappy with the internals of a seperate nation.


* Note: I would like it not to be, but I recognise the argument one could make for it's legality.
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by Thanas »

Stas Bush wrote:Ossus already said that he would support the assassination of Posada Carilles and, by that logic, Bush as well, if that was carried out with little collateral damage.

So at least he's honest. Everybody has the right to assasinate everybody. :luv:
You do realize that this pretty much abolishes the concept of citizenship and sovereignty, right?
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Re: Obama admin: New Gitmo and we'll kill anybody we want

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:You do realize that this pretty much abolishes the concept of citizenship and sovereignty, right?
Ossus said that anybody not properly prosecuted is a legitimate target. And yes, he shat on sovereignity and citizenship that very instance. But at least that's a consistent anti-citizenship rights position that demolishes the very grounds of sovereignity based on "attacking those not prosecuted". I only said his position is not hypocritical, nay that it is not wrong.
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