Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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The Utah Legislature on Thursday passed a bill allowing gold and silver coins to be used as legal tender in the state — and for the value of their precious metal, not just the face value of the coins.

State backers said they hope the move will help insulate Utah from a potential monetary slide as countries question the value of the dollar. Others, casting their eye nationwide, said it could spur a broader move by Congress or states to readopt a gold standard.

“Utah, if the governor signs this particularly, they’re going to change the national debate on monetary policy and get us back to basics,” said Jeffrey Bell, policy director for Washington-based American Principles in Action. Mr. Bell has been in Utah to help shepherd the legislation through.

Utah’s bill allows stores to accept gold and silver coins as legal tender. It also exempts gold and silver transactions from the state’s capital gains tax, though that does not shield exchanges from federal taxes.

The legislation directs a state committee to look at whether Utah should recognize an official alternate form of legal tender which could become a path for creating a formal state gold standard.
**FILE** Utah Gov. Gary Herbert (Associated Press)**FILE** Utah Gov. Gary Herbert (Associated Press)

A spokeswoman for Gov. Gary R. Herbert, a Republican, said he has not yet taken a public stance on the bill.

State Rep. Brad J. Galvez, the chief sponsor of the measure, said he views it as a preliminary step on the path toward securing Utah’s business climate.

“If the dollar continues to fall, what this will do will help stabilize the value of the dollar in Utah, so it helps stabilize the economy,” Mr. Galvez, a Republican, said.

While similar legislation has been proposed in nearly a dozen states, Mr. Galvez said that if Mr. Herbert signs his bill, Utah will be just the second state to official recognize the coins as legal tender. Colorado has recognized gold and silver for decades, he said.

Opponents questioned why a state would need to come up with an alternative money system. According to the Deseret News, one lawmaker joked that the state should establish salt as legal tender, since Utah has so much of it.

Other opponents said the state capital gains tax break could distort investing decisions and push people to choose gold and silver over other investments.

Utah’s move on gold comes at a time when states across the country are seeking ways to push back against the federal government on everything from environmental regulations to health care.

But the instability of the U.S. dollar also has sent some states scrambling to try to come up with alternatives or to pass measures designed to spur federal action.

In Virginia, Delegate Robert G. Marshall, a Republican, successfully pushed through a bill — not yet signed by the governor — that authorizes the state to mint gold, silver and platinum coins. He said that there is probably a good market for collectors who would prefer not to have to buy federally minted coins and said state-minted ones would create a backstop against inflation.

“I’m looking at Congress, and I’m looking at what the Chinese are doing, and I don’t have a lot of confidence in what’s going on there,” Mr. Marshall said. “This is one way where Virginia can help our citizens as a security hedge against the inflationary action of Congress.”

He also wrote a resolution authorizing a study on whether Virginia should adopt an alternate currency so it would not be dependent on Federal Reserve notes. That resolution did not pass.

The U.S. was on the gold standard and then a gold-exchange standard for much of the 20th century, but President Nixon finally decoupled the U.S. money supply from gold in 1971. Many investors, though, continue to believe it holds value better than other investments.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Zixinus »

At this rate, why not mint sheep or something?
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by aerius »

They're probably just trying to close this loophole and get all the taxes collected properly. They can now tax the coins based on metal value instead of the face value.

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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Zaune »

Pardon my economic ignorance, but where exactly is the harm in this? Unlikely as it may well be that the United States will suffer from inflation severe enough to justify the widespread uptake of these measures, having a contingency plan for the worst-case scenario never did any harm. The only aspect of it that I find questionable is the capital gains tax loophole it creates, but the US tax code is famed for being so full of loopholes that one more probably doesn't matter much.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by LaCroix »

If this is really for tax purposes, then this is raging insanity. You'd have to keep book of the amount of coins you received and their daily values if they want you to pay taxes according to metal value.

How high is the metal value of non-collector coins?
For it is less than their denomination, people would want to be paid in coins and tax that value. If less, it would allow people to withdraw coins from their bank accounts and then sell them to the government at metal value for paper money.

On the other hand, may they want to destabilize the budget, so they can make more "desperately needed" cuts.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Zaune wrote:Pardon my economic ignorance, but where exactly is the harm in this? Unlikely as it may well be that the United States will suffer from inflation severe enough to justify the widespread uptake of these measures, having a contingency plan for the worst-case scenario never did any harm. The only aspect of it that I find questionable is the capital gains tax loophole it creates, but the US tax code is famed for being so full of loopholes that one more probably doesn't matter much.
My understanding is that there's too much money around. There's not enough gold in the world to be able to cover the US dollar, or the currency of any large economy for that matter. You also, of course, link the value of your currency directly to the commodities market, so you don't even solve the problem of your currency fluctuating in value that a gold standard is supposed to solve. Likewise, commodities backed currencies are not immune to inflation either.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Simon_Jester »

LaCroix wrote:If this is really for tax purposes, then this is raging insanity. You'd have to keep book of the amount of coins you received and their daily values if they want you to pay taxes according to metal value.

How high is the metal value of non-collector coins?
For it is less than their denomination, people would want to be paid in coins and tax that value. If less, it would allow people to withdraw coins from their bank accounts and then sell them to the government at metal value for paper money.

On the other hand, may they want to destabilize the budget, so they can make more "desperately needed" cuts.
If this bill only applies to gold and silver coins, it doesn't apply to federal currency.

And I'm honestly not sure the states can mint their own currency- can they?
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Another pointless waste of time by my home state. Do they seriously expect people to actually try paying for stuff in gold and silver coins?

Never-mind people actually taking them as payment. I'm rather amused by the idea of someone trying to pay a bill at my counter with a gold coin.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Another pointless waste of time by my home state. Do they seriously expect people to actually try paying for stuff in gold and silver coins?

Never-mind people actually taking them as payment. I'm rather amused by the idea of someone trying to pay a bill at my counter with a gold coin.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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It's another disaster waiting to happen. It's not like gold isn't in it's own bubble right now, driven way to high by fear mongers like Glen Beck. When it pops, all these dip shits will lose their shirts too.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Simon_Jester wrote:
LaCroix wrote:If this is really for tax purposes, then this is raging insanity. You'd have to keep book of the amount of coins you received and their daily values if they want you to pay taxes according to metal value.

How high is the metal value of non-collector coins?
For it is less than their denomination, people would want to be paid in coins and tax that value. If less, it would allow people to withdraw coins from their bank accounts and then sell them to the government at metal value for paper money.

On the other hand, may they want to destabilize the budget, so they can make more "desperately needed" cuts.
If this bill only applies to gold and silver coins, it doesn't apply to federal currency.

And I'm honestly not sure the states can mint their own currency- can they?
No.
U.S. Const. art. I, § 10, cl. 1. wrote:No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
My understanding is that they can accept gold or silver coins, but at the face value and only those minted by the U.S. government. That's why a silver dollar is only worth $1 no matter what the value of the silver comprising it is. I believe foreign currency must first be converted into legal U.S. tender. In short, if this passes I'd expect it to be shot down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution, that document the GOP claims to love so much.

Note: As always I could be wrong, if so please correct me.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Zaune wrote:Pardon my economic ignorance, but where exactly is the harm in this? Unlikely as it may well be that the United States will suffer from inflation severe enough to justify the widespread uptake of these measures, having a contingency plan for the worst-case scenario never did any harm. The only aspect of it that I find questionable is the capital gains tax loophole it creates, but the US tax code is famed for being so full of loopholes that one more probably doesn't matter much.
The U.S is suffering from deflation at the moment and will not suffer hyper-inflation any time in the near future.

The Gold standard is a economic relic.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Sute »

The idea of allowing gold and silver coins to be used as currency based on the value of the metal rather than the face denomination seems impractical, to say the least. Especially if they are to be used at regular stores. Ignoring the unlikelihood that such coins would actually be used like that, don't the prices of gold and silver vary pretty fast? Not necessarily by large margins, but by some amount. Would this bill force store owners who accept gold and silver coins to keep up-to-the-minute on the actual value of gold and silver, or would it risk that the customers won't get their money's worth when they use their shiny metal money?

Or am I wrong, and that isn't a problem here?
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Sute wrote:The idea of allowing gold and silver coins to be used as currency based on the value of the metal rather than the face denomination seems impractical, to say the least. Especially if they are to be used at regular stores. Ignoring the unlikelihood that such coins would actually be used like that, don't the prices of gold and silver vary pretty fast? Not necessarily by large margins, but by some amount. Would this bill force store owners who accept gold and silver coins to keep up-to-the-minute on the actual value of gold and silver, or would it risk that the customers won't get their money's worth when they use their shiny metal money?

Or am I wrong, and that isn't a problem here?
You are quite right, and you are undererstimating the problem.

Suppose there is a standarized gold/silver coin, which was mostly the case during history and would be the case here. That coin has a certain weight which you can supposedly recognize based on it's shape, coinage etc. It would be even more impractical to weight the coins evey time.
Now what prevents anyone from just scraping off small edges off that coin? What prevents anyone from using lead coins which are just laced with gold, or mix metals with small amounts of gold so that it appears to be pure gold? Minting coins is not that hard after all, especiall with soft metals such as gold. Forgery would be rampant.



I really fail to see the point of this, other than "hurr hurr let's get back to the goood ol' days". Gold doesn't prevent inflation - just look at the rise of gold prices over the last couple of years, it can fluctuate just as widely as money does. Nor is there enough gold to back up a currency, any such attempt would really just be symbolic and the currency would be as much a "fiat currency" as current ones.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Zaune wrote:Pardon my economic ignorance, but where exactly is the harm in this? Unlikely as it may well be that the United States will suffer from inflation severe enough to justify the widespread uptake of these measures, having a contingency plan for the worst-case scenario never did any harm. The only aspect of it that I find questionable is the capital gains tax loophole it creates, but the US tax code is famed for being so full of loopholes that one more probably doesn't matter much.
Ever watched reports on trading in the news, gold is up this much, or silver down that much?

Imagine your money going wildly up and down in the course of a day. The idea that gold is immune to inflation is laughable. It's price changes all the time.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by bilateralrope »

Given how much the price of gold an silver fluctuates, I can't see any sensible reason why someone would want to use it except as a way to screw over whoever they are paying. As it's legal tender, they can't refuse to accept your payment (most of the time), so by paying in gold or silver you are forcing them to incur all the costs of handling it.

The risk of forgery is going to up the costs. Either you have to test the coins on the spot, or you have to separate them out so that when you find a forged coin you can prove who gave it to you.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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bilateralrope wrote:As it's legal tender, they can't refuse to accept your payment (most of the time), so by paying in gold or silver you are forcing them to incur all the costs of handling it.
Actually, that's a good question. Is the state actually proposing to compel businesses to accept payment in this manner, beyond whatever local rules they have on invitation to treat?
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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Zaune wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:As it's legal tender, they can't refuse to accept your payment (most of the time), so by paying in gold or silver you are forcing them to incur all the costs of handling it.
Actually, that's a good question. Is the state actually proposing to compel businesses to accept payment in this manner, beyond whatever local rules they have on invitation to treat?
If they declare it to be legal tender, then a bussiness has to accept it as payment - that's the entire concept behind legal tender.
Nothing prevents you from going to a shop and trying to pay with baseball cards, or chickens - but the bussiness has the right to reject such payment. They can not reject such payment when you are using legal tender, such as the US dollar (in the USA, it would not be legal tender in another country). Now bussinesses still have the right to refuse to deal with you.
Basically, the steps are like this - the bussiness owner accepts to trade with you, and then he accepts your payment. This looks like the same step when you are buying something off a shop, but in other cases it isn't. A restaurant would be legally required to take your payment in legal tender - they could also take it in chickens, but they don't have to accept that payment (unless a contract specifically says so). Or if you owe something money, then he has to accept payment in legal tender - if you offer him chicken instead, he can refuse them as payment.

Okay, bottom line:
You can refuse any payment for any owed debt that is not in legal tender. If it is legal tender, you have to accept it as a payment for that debt.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

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SirNitram wrote: Ever watched reports on trading in the news, gold is up this much, or silver down that much?

Imagine your money going wildly up and down in the course of a day. The idea that gold is immune to inflation is laughable. It's price changes all the time.
For a lot of dumb reasons too, like if a major gold mine has an elevator malfunction the price of of gold will spike until it is fixed. At least inflation and deflation of paper money is normally the result of large scale economic trends, massive government spending bills or huge disasters. Gold offers some safety from complete loss of value, but that's it.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Duckie »

This may be, interestingly, a very old idea. Very old as in- 1865 USA South. The Confederate Constitution allowed states to issue bills of credit. Now, I'm no constitutional scholar, but I believe at the time a "bill of credit" was paper money or maybe bonds. Not sure which.

It was probably a bad idea back then too, to let states have heterogenous currency. The US got rid of state-issued money as soon as possible for a good reason.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Zaune »

Serafina wrote:If they declare it to be legal tender, then a business has to accept it as payment - that's the entire concept behind legal tender.
Nothing prevents you from going to a shop and trying to pay with baseball cards, or chickens - but the business has the right to reject such payment. They can not reject such payment when you are using legal tender, such as the US dollar (in the USA, it would not be legal tender in another country). Now businesses still have the right to refuse to deal with you.
Basically, the steps are like this - the business owner accepts to trade with you, and then he accepts your payment. This looks like the same step when you are buying something off a shop, but in other cases it isn't. A restaurant would be legally required to take your payment in legal tender - they could also take it in chickens, but they don't have to accept that payment (unless a contract specifically says so). Or if you owe something money, then he has to accept payment in legal tender - if you offer him chicken instead, he can refuse them as payment.

Okay, bottom line:
You can refuse any payment for any owed debt that is not in legal tender. If it is legal tender, you have to accept it as a payment for that debt.
Fair enough, but are enough people likely to choose to pay in gold or silver to make this more than a theoretical problem? I don't know what world precious metal prices are like right now, but I sincerely doubt that the value of these coins will drop to the point where they're going to be used in significant numbers.
I'm not saying this bill isn't completely pointless, but I can't imagine it doing any real harm. A few survivalists and other crazies will convert their life savings into gold and bury it in the back garden, it'll be briefly fashionable to show off by paying for an expensive dinner-date and/or hotel room with one or two of these, and then everyone will forget it was ever passed in the first place.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Beowulf »

Most transactions people make are not debts. If I go to the store and buy a loaf of bread, I don't incur a debt to the store. This is why convenience stores can refuse to accept bills larger than $20. You only incur a debt if you get something before you pay. Sit down restaurants, gas stations that allow you to pay after pumping, credit cards, etc. Thus, even if the state allows payment in gold or silver, if you don't incur a debt in their service of you, they don't have to accept the cash.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Duckie wrote:This may be, interestingly, a very old idea. Very old as in- 1865 USA South. The Confederate Constitution allowed states to issue bills of credit. Now, I'm no constitutional scholar, but I believe at the time a "bill of credit" was paper money or maybe bonds. Not sure which.

It was probably a bad idea back then too, to let states have heterogenous currency. The US got rid of state-issued money as soon as possible for a good reason.
It was a real bad idea.
Many Confederate States also allowed railroads and banks to issue bills of credit. This was meant to be used like paper money, but some of them did have a bond yield return. The Confederates had about 9000% inflation during the war as a result of numerous economic and fiscal blunders, the North had about 80% inflation and printed a single paper currency at the federal level to make up for physical shortages of gold and silver with which to make coinage. Pretty clear which idea works better! And yes, a lot of other factors are involved, such as the Union printing whole boxcar loads of counterfeit Confederate money.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

How many pure gold or silver coins are out there, anyway? U.S. silver colored coins haven't actually been silver for a long time, and gold dollars aren't pure either, IIRC.
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Re: Utah plans on going for Gold and Silver standards

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Just do a Google image search on "price of gold". It's not at all stable. People bitch about the value of the dollar, but it's a hell of a lot more predictable than some shiny piece of metal.
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