Austerity paper got it wrong

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Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by mr friendly guy »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22223190

Long story short - part of the justification for austerity is a paper which states that GDP growth slows down dramatically when debt to GDP ratio approaches 90%. However that paper made some errors and a student picked it up.
Reinhart, Rogoff... and Herndon: The student who caught out the profs
By Ruth Alexander

BBC News

This week, economists have been astonished to find that a famous academic paper often used to make the case for austerity cuts contains major errors. Another surprise is that the mistakes, by two eminent Harvard professors, were spotted by a student doing his homework.

It's 4 January 2010, the Marriott Hotel in Atlanta. At the annual meeting of the American Economic Association, Professor Carmen Reinhart and the former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, Ken Rogoff, are presenting a research paper called Growth in a Time of Debt.

At a time of economic crisis, their finding resonates - economic growth slows dramatically when the size of a country's debt rises above 90% of Gross Domestic Product, the overall size of the economy.

Word about this paper spread. Policymakers wanted to know more.

And so did student Thomas Herndon. His professors at the University of Massachusetts Amherst had set his graduate class an assignment - pick an economics paper and see if you can replicate the results. It's a good exercise for aspiring researchers.

Thomas chose Growth in a Time of Debt. It was getting a lot of attention, but intuitively, he says, he was dubious about its findings.

Some key figures tackling the global recession found this paper a useful addition to the debate at the heart of which is this key question: is it best to let debt increase in the hope of stimulating economic growth to get out of the slump, or is it better to cut spending and raise taxes aggressively to get public debt under control?

EU commissioner Olli Rehn and influential US Republican politician Paul Ryan have both quoted a 90% debt-to-GDP limit to support their austerity strategies.

But while US politicians were arguing over whether to inject more stimulus into the economy, the euro was creaking under the strain of forced austerity, and a new coalition government in the UK was promising to raise taxes and cut spending to get the economy under control - Thomas Herndon's homework assignment wasn't going well.

No matter how he tried, he just couldn't replicate Reinhart and Rogoff's results.

"My heart sank," he says. "I thought I had likely made a gross error. Because I'm a student the odds were I'd made the mistake, not the well-known Harvard professors."

His professors were also sure he must be doing something wrong.

"I remember I had a meeting with my professor, Michael Ash, where he basically said, 'Come on, Tom, this isn't too hard - you just gotta go sort this out.'"

So Herndon checked his work, and checked again.

By the end of the semester, when he still hadn't cracked the puzzle, his supervisors realised something was up.

"We had this puzzle that we were unable to replicate the results that Reinhart-Rogoff published," Prof Ash, says. "And that really got under our skin. That was really a mystery for us."

So Ash and his colleague Prof Robert Pollin encouraged Herndon to continue the project and to write to the Harvard professors. After some correspondence, Reinhart and Rogoff provided Thomas with the actual working spreadsheet they'd used to obtain their results.

"Everyone says seeing is believing, but I almost didn't believe my eyes," he says.

Thomas called his girlfriend over to check his eyes weren't deceiving him.

But no, he was correct - he'd spotted a basic error in the spreadsheet. The Harvard professors had accidentally only included 15 of the 20 countries under analysis in their key calculation (of average GDP growth in countries with high public debt).

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada and Denmark were missing.


Oops.

Herndon and his professors found other issues with Growth in a Time of Debt, which had an even bigger impact on the famous result. The first was the fact that for some countries, some data was missing altogether.

Reinhart and Rogoff say that they were assembling the data series bit by bit, and at the time they presented the paper for the American Economic Association conference, good quality data on post-war Canada, Australia and New Zealand simply weren't available. Nevertheless, the omission made a substantial difference.

Thomas and his supervisors also didn't like the way that Reinhart and Rogoff averaged their data. They say one bad year for a small country like New Zealand, was blown out of proportion because it was given the same weight as, for example, the UK's nearly 20 years with high public debt. "

New Zealand's single year, 1951, at -8% growth is held up with the same weight as Britain's nearly 20 years in the high public debt category at 2.5% growth," Michael Ash says.

"I think that's a mistaken way to examine these data."

There's no black and white here, because there are also downsides to the obvious alternatives. But still, it's controversial and it, too, made a big difference.

All these results were published by Thomas Herndon and his professors on 15 April, as a draft working paper. They find that high levels of debt are still correlated with lower growth - but the most spectacular results from the Reinhart and Rogoff paper disappear. High debt is correlated with somewhat lower growth, but the relationship is much gentler and there are lots of exceptions to the rule.

Reinhart and Rogoff weren't available to be interviewed, but they did provide the BBC with a statement.

In it, they said: "We are grateful to Herndon et al. for the careful attention to our original Growth in a Time of Debt AER paper and for pointing out an important correction to Figure 2 of that paper. It is sobering that such an error slipped into one of our papers despite our best efforts to be consistently careful. We will redouble our efforts to avoid such errors in the future. We do not, however, believe this regrettable slip affects in any significant way the central message of the paper or that in our subsequent work."

Accidents do happen, and science progresses through the identification of previous mistakes. But was this a particularly expensive mistake?

"I don't think jobs were destroyed because of this but it provides an intellectual rationalisation for things that affect how people think about the world," says Daniel Hamermesh, professor of economics at Royal Holloway, University of London.

"And how people think about the world, especially politicians, eventually affects how the world works."

Discovering a spreadsheet error was never going to end the debate over austerity - and nor should it, according to Megan McArdle, special correspondent for Newsweek and The Daily Beast.

"There is other research showing that you can have these slowdowns when you get to high levels of debt," she says. "We have a very vivid [example] in Greece."

Thomas Herndon 's view is that austerity policies are counter-productive. But right now he's delighted that the first academic paper he's ever published has made such a splash.

"I feel really honoured to have made a contribution to the policy discussion," he says.
Let the discussion continue.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by gigabytelord »

That is one lucky kid, Hopefully this information will help in the areas intended.
I don't know enough to even take an educated guess about this stuff. I just wanted to give him some props for finding the error.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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It's blatantly obvious, tautological actually that austerity reduces GDP growth, because government spending is a positive term in the GDP definition. This is a foundational part of the Keynesian delusion where arbitrary, often nonsenical or counterproductive consumption ordered by beurecrats is assumed to benefit people as much as consumption they individually chose to spend their limited resources on. I digress though, it should be blatantly obvious from the EU fiasco that borrow-and-spend works great at supporting consumption as long as you can keep both interest and inflation rates down. History confirms that no mechanism to do that is sustainable, and when they fail there is a rapid transition from 'everything is fine, debt doesn't matter' to Greece. The entire 'but austerity reduces GDP' is a red herring from the real issue of how close developed countries are to debt collapse and whether it can (or should) be postponed or avoided.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

It's almost like living beyond one's means is an unsustainable bad idea, bound to come bite people on the arse later on. Extend and pretend, folks.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's almost like living beyond one's means is an unsustainable bad idea, bound to come bite people on the arse later on. Extend and pretend, folks.
What an unmutual individualist idea. It should be axiomatic that all problems can be solved by a higher level of collectivism; after all the EU could magic away all austerity if the evil Germans weren't vetoing unlimited ECB purchase of euro govies.

To be fair there is a distinction between 'ones means' in terms of the tax raising capability of the government and 'ones means' in terms of the underlying capacity of the economy. The more sophisticated anti-austerity argument is that slack capacity in the economy means we are actually living below 'our means', due to economic efficiencies that 'temporary' government overspend can supposedly correct. This is based on the other main Keynesian delusion; that (most of) the slack capacity is due to cyclical rather than structural reasons.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Simon_Jester »

The other other anti-austerity argument is that even if the slack capacity in the economy is structural, that fixing this, or attempting to increase the economy's future capacity, requires government spending.

Cut education funding now, and you may be able to lower taxes and reduce the deficit. On the other hand, you will also reduce your economy's ability to make debt payments 10-20 years down the line.

Stop repairing and maintaining highways now, you will reduce the deficit. You will then need to spend even more money 10-20 years down the line when bridges are actively collapsing and must be replaced at all costs, and you will lose economic capacity due to the opportunity costs of traffic jams and slow commutes.

What counts here is the multiplier effect. Paying people to dig holes and fill them in again is a waste of time unless you're desperate to put money in their pockets for some ulterior reason. Paying people to dig subway tunnels and teach elementary school, not so much.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by aerius »

Modern economic policy in 5 easy steps

1) borrow a shitload of money that we don't have, or print it
2) use it for various bailout & rescue packages
3) ensure that at least 95% of it ends up bailing out "too big to fail" banks & financials which would otherwise fail
4) ??????
5) economy is saved! Everything will be ok, trust us.

And people will argue that this works.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Simon_Jester »

Speculation:

What defines a 'too big to fail' financial, aside from being buddy-buddy with a captured regulatory agency, is that the effects of its collapse are unpredictable and uncontrollable. They cannot easily be contained, and we might have to come to terms with whatever reality lies "under the hood" of the routine business of the system as we know it.

Rewriting the rules from first principles in the wake of a total collapse of the existing system might or might not be a net positive in the long run- but it's exactly the sort of thing a government regulatory agency will normally try to avoid. Regulation of the economy is (usually) inherently conservative in that way, it seeks to preserve some desirable status quo. Removing the huge financial firms from the picture in the modern world would change the status quo so much that no normal regulatory agency, 'leftist', 'right-wing', or otherwise, will be in favor of it.

In other words, the Fed and the SEC aren't in the business of revolution; allowing the "too big to fail" companies to fail would be a revolutionary act.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Simon_Jester wrote:The other other anti-austerity argument is that even if the slack capacity in the economy is structural, that fixing this, or attempting to increase the economy's future capacity, requires government spending... stop repairing and maintaining highways now, you will reduce the deficit. You will then need to spend even more money 10-20 years down the line when bridges are actively collapsing and must be replaced at all costs, and you will lose economic capacity due to the opportunity costs of traffic jams and slow commutes.
Increasing capacity is pointless if the capacity is not utilised. That isn't to say that supply-side improvements can't help; they help when the lower costs and increase the effective purchasing power of existing incomes. However all transport & industrial infrastructure spending, training and grants total 5% of UK government spending. Health & public order, which are required for the rest of the economy to operate, are another 23%. Very few companies would say that increasing this invesment would lead to significantly reduced cost to the public. Education, defence and environmental, which you can reasonably categorise as a long term investment in the capacity of the economy, are another 22%. Transfer payments and social services, which have no investment value are 42%.
What counts here is the multiplier effect.
The multiplier effect is a demand-side concept; yes it applies to investment spending in that it is technically demand, but as mentioned above the vast majority of government-generated demand comes from non-investment spending. Taxes eliminate demand so the only direct net demand created by the government comes from the deficit (unlike individual earnings, which do not reduce demand). Now of course, the socialist faithful are convinced that the infinitely wise beurecrats can always spend money in a way that increases velocity more than letting individuals spend it would (and utility as well but that is a seperate argument). This has blatantly failed recently where excessive debt service is draining velocity and effective demand across the entire economy - plus trade deficits inflicing an effective negative multiplier on most economic activity - plus debt-bubble-inflated (and government supported) asset prices and rents again draining velocity and effective demand. All of this brings down the effective multiplier well below the point that direct stimulation of demand by deficit spending can increase near-term taxes enough to pay for itself. Long term investment benefits are partly just increasing slack capacity and partly being overwhelmed by the velocity-reducing, demand-destroying trends.

Of course you can pump demand and velocity to arbitrary levels with money printing. I joke about that but honestly, at this point the debt destruction from the resulting inflation may actually be worth the economic disruption. This is because decades of government propping, market manipulation and bank zombification mean that large-scale bankrupcy-based debt destruction is now associated with economic apocalypse.

Note; I am not an economist, but I have picked up a fair bit of practical macroeconomics for the purpose of fixed income and FX product modelling.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Simon_Jester wrote:Speculation:

What defines a 'too big to fail' financial, aside from being buddy-buddy with a captured regulatory agency, is that the effects of its collapse are unpredictable and uncontrollable. They cannot easily be contained, and we might have to come to terms with whatever reality lies "under the hood" of the routine business of the system as we know it.
There's a reason I put "too big to fail" in quotes; there is no such thing as a too big to fail bank or financial. Yes it'll suck if Bank of America went under, but it's not going to cause Mad Max or anything close to that, it's not the end of the world if even if every big bank goes goes tits up. We need banks for our economy to function, but we do not need those specific banks. We can continue what we're doing now and hope that everything somehow magically works itself out (pssst! Wanna buy a bridge?), or we can do what Sweden did and nationalize the TBTF banks, cram them down, fix'em up, then re-privatize them.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Simon_Jester wrote:The other other anti-austerity argument is that even if the slack capacity in the economy is structural, that fixing this, or attempting to increase the economy's future capacity, requires government spending.
Hang on a moment, what do you mean by "slack capacity"? You go on to suggest a number of long-term investments that seem targeted at overcapacity instead of undercapacity. If you have lots of structural slack capacity in infrastructure, you should be shutting down bridges and letting them collapse. If you have lots of structural slack capacity in education, you should be defunding it and consolidating school systems.

Slack capacity in the short run, meanwhile, is the result of problems with monetary policy (or major social upheaval). You're not going to fix that with government spending (or more accurately, if you do, you could have done so more efficiently with monetary policy).
What counts here is the multiplier effect. Paying people to dig holes and fill them in again is a waste of time unless you're desperate to put money in their pockets for some ulterior reason. Paying people to dig subway tunnels and teach elementary school, not so much.
Bear in mind that the multiplier effect doesn't exist when you have a central bank doing something stupid like targeting inflation. Even aggregating away problems like inefficiency, rent-seeking, procyclicality, what the multiplier is depends heavily on the stance of monetary policy.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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aerius wrote:There's a reason I put "too big to fail" in quotes; there is no such thing as a too big to fail bank or financial. Yes it'll suck if Bank of America went under, but it's not going to cause Mad Max or anything close to that, it's not the end of the world if even if every big bank goes goes tits up. We need banks for our economy to function, but we do not need those specific banks.
Quoted for great truth. If a bank goes under, it's not like its assets vanish; they'll be bought up and put to more efficient use. If tight money hasn't frozen the economy, the capital and labor of the bank will be recycled into other banks that spring up to fill the gap. It's like the ecosystem (0:56):

(There's an even better scene in Planet Earth: Jungles, at about 5:00, that I couldn't find on youtube.)
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Starglider wrote:Increasing capacity is pointless if the capacity is not utilised.
That's somewhat academic given the state of our infrastructure. We're desperately short of housing stock in areas of the country where there's work to be had, we haven't got enough surface reservoirs to take advantage of our new monsoon season, we're going to have to start getting serious about electrifying the whole railway network at some point... I'm sure we could all could think of some good examples.

(And how would I fund this? Do away with Working Tax Credit, the second-most staggeringly asinine act of fuckwittery perpetrated by Labour-In-Name-Only after invading Iraq, and put the minimum wage up to a nice round tenner an hour instead.)
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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So if I get Zaune's argument, he's saying that some of Britain's slack capacity is caused by inefficiencies of infrastructure. I.e. there are areas where the economy is growing and labor is in demand, but there is no place for the extra workers to live. Meanwhile, the cheap housing in which people can afford to live is located far from jobs, and government policies are tending to perpetuate that problem, so that you have a combination of idle workers and idle factories. Fixing that would require a change of state policy, and probably require the state to spend some money at some point in the process.
Surlethe wrote:Hang on a moment, what do you mean by "slack capacity"? You go on to suggest a number of long-term investments that seem targeted at overcapacity instead of undercapacity. If you have lots of structural slack capacity in infrastructure, you should be shutting down bridges and letting them collapse. If you have lots of structural slack capacity in education, you should be defunding it and consolidating school systems.
OK, let me try to be more clear, let me speak in less garbled and disorganized ways that hopefully reflect better thinking:

In the urgent short run we have a slack-capacity problem that, reasonably, needs a monetary policy solution.

In the medium to long run we have a debt-burden problem that is not purely because of government spending since the 2008 recession. The US was running a structural deficit during the good times of the early 2000s, too, after all. Nor is the US the only example, just the one I'm pointing to right this moment.

In the short run we need to restart slack capacity for productivity. Get people and facilities back to work, in other words.

In the medium to long run, we need growth, combined with responsible taxation and budgeting, to get us out of the debt load we're already saddled with, and were in many cases saddled with before 2008.

The "other other argument" I presented against austerity is basically that it means we stop investing in our nations' social capital, human capital, infrastructure, and so on. As those investments are cut back, our future potential for growth is reduced. Any slack economic capacity not put into use now becomes more likely to wither away. New economic capacity is less likely to arise.

My perception is that we risk hitting "peak GDP" and getting more or less stuck there, which almost guarantees we'll never fix our debt crisis even if we stop running up new deficits as fast as we did in 2008-2010.
What counts here is the multiplier effect. Paying people to dig holes and fill them in again is a waste of time unless you're desperate to put money in their pockets for some ulterior reason. Paying people to dig subway tunnels and teach elementary school, not so much.
Bear in mind that the multiplier effect doesn't exist when you have a central bank doing something stupid like targeting inflation. Even aggregating away problems like inefficiency, rent-seeking, procyclicality, what the multiplier is depends heavily on the stance of monetary policy.
Agreed.
Starglider wrote:Increasing capacity is pointless if the capacity is not utilised. That isn't to say that supply-side improvements can't help; they help when the lower costs and increase the effective purchasing power of existing incomes. However all transport & industrial infrastructure spending, training and grants total 5% of UK government spending. Health & public order, which are required for the rest of the economy to operate, are another 23%. Very few companies would say that increasing this invesment would lead to significantly reduced cost to the public. Education, defence and environmental, which you can reasonably categorise as a long term investment in the capacity of the economy, are another 22%. Transfer payments and social services, which have no investment value are 42%.
I am unsure whether transfer payments and social services really do have zero investment value in the sense I'm talking about.

Is it the equivalent of pouring money down a hole? Would Britain be just as well off without those programs? Maybe; it depends on what the economic consequences are of leaving the underclass to fend for themselves, or of defunding things like child protective services, are on the next generation.
The multiplier effect is a demand-side concept; yes it applies to investment spending in that it is technically demand, but as mentioned above the vast majority of government-generated demand comes from non-investment spending. Taxes eliminate demand so the only direct net demand created by the government comes from the deficit (unlike individual earnings, which do not reduce demand).
It's the indirect factors that concern me in the first place, so I'm not sure your argument speaks to my questions.
All of this brings down the effective multiplier well below the point that direct stimulation of demand by deficit spending can increase near-term taxes enough to pay for itself.
I certainly agree with that observation. I'm not saying deficit spending purely to keep up demand is a smart move. But austerity as such, the general drive to cut government spending rather than, say, change the tax structure... I consider this deeply questionable because of the medium to long term effects. I don't want the developed world of 2025 to be stuck in a zero-growth economic regime because of the long term effects of austerity measures taken in 2010.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Simon_Jester wrote:I'm not saying deficit spending purely to keep up demand is a smart move. But austerity as such, the general drive to cut government spending rather than, say, change the tax structure... I consider this deeply questionable because of the medium to long term effects. I don't want the developed world of 2025 to be stuck in a zero-growth economic regime because of the long term effects of austerity measures taken in 2010.
I shall now throw a wrench into the works. Why is it assumed that the economy must grow? While it's true that everything in our modern economic systems expects and moreover depends on continued growth, and not only that but continued exponential growth, is this the only way forward? We live on a finite planet with finite resources, perhaps we should be looking at something a little more sustainable? Given our comfortable first world existence, is a steady state economy really that bad? Something to think about.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Simon_Jester »

A steady state economy is fine. A graceful transition from "continued growth" to "steady state" is very important.

Our problem is that if we are to have a steady-state economy, we need to put real thought into how to manage that to optimize public good so that we (we being 'the nation of Xistan,' 'human civilization,' whatever) get as much out of our finite fixed resources as possible. We are not yet prepared to think those thoughts as a civilization, because our government is surgically glued to the big banks, and because we are running on a set of institutions that only function in a growth-based economy. Without growth, most of our basic assumptions about how to finance and organize capital break down and have to be reconsidered. In the short to medium term, we want to make sure we can keep the machine running while we do that reconsidering.

Because having to rethink your basic social assumptions fast, when the machine totally falls apart in a hurry, is called a revolution. I don't want one if I can avoid it.

Moreover, we face a 21st century where some sectors of the economy will predictably shrink, or predispose the economy toward shrinking. For example, energy will predictably get more expensive. We really should be trying to make sure that we're doing well enough in other areas to compensate for that shrinkage and loss.

So, again, I HOPE we can plan to provide future-us with the wherewithal for a growing economy, to make sure we can tread water if things get worse. And (if possible) maintain growth until such time as our legacy 20th century problems like sovereign debt built up through '90s-00s profligacy start to fade, so we can concentrate on 21st century problems like climate change.

I really hope so.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

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Surlethe wrote:Slack capacity in the short run, meanwhile, is the result of problems with monetary policy (or major social upheaval). You're not going to fix that with government spending (or more accurately, if you do, you could have done so more efficiently with monetary policy).
Agreed, which is why I tend to favor NGDP targeting monetary policy as the first measure in responding to a decline in economic activity. Especially since it avoids the negative connotations involved in targeting inflation directly, and also gets at what we're actually trying to to - re-start growth.

More generally, I'm skeptical of deeper structural explanations for the downturn that started in 2008-2009. Subprime did lead to a serious crisis in the financial sector worldwide, but we've had melt-downs before that didn't take the whole economy down with them (like the Savings and Loans Crisis in the late 1980s). But recessions always tend to bring the people advocating for structural reforms out of the woodwork, regardless of whether or not they either contributed to the crisis or would seriously contribute to resolving it.
J wrote:I shall now throw a wrench into the works. Why is it assumed that the economy must grow? While it's true that everything in our modern economic systems expects and moreover depends on continued growth, and not only that but continued exponential growth, is this the only way forward? We live on a finite planet with finite resources, perhaps we should be looking at something a little more sustainable? Given our comfortable first world existence, is a steady state economy really that bad? Something to think about.
Economic growth usually but does not necessarily require additional uses of finite resources in absolute terms. In fact, since intensive growth is all about using greater productivity to get more out of a particular set of inputs, I can imagine a situation where we're getting additional growth with very minor to nil growth in the use of non-renewable inputs (particularly in a situation where the overall population growth rate is decline.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by K. A. Pital »

Simon_Jester wrote:We are not yet prepared to think those thoughts as a civilization, because our government is surgically glued to the big banks, and because we are running on a set of institutions that only function in a growth-based economy.
If you keep running those institutions, you will never be ready. The change will come as a rude awakening. Worse yet, perpetual-growth oriented institutions might cause a catastrophic breakdown which will leave Earth unable to support the population.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:We are not yet prepared to think those thoughts as a civilization, because our government is surgically glued to the big banks, and because we are running on a set of institutions that only function in a growth-based economy.
If you keep running those institutions, you will never be ready. The change will come as a rude awakening. Worse yet, perpetual-growth oriented institutions might cause a catastrophic breakdown which will leave Earth unable to support the population.
The institutions that need to change are those of governance; the economic systems that need to be changed are banks and financial firms and housing patterns.

For the economic system to be reformed, the institutions must be repaired so that they can bring the economic system into order. In the medium run this is vital. In the short run we're still in the groundwork laying stage, where I think we're very heavily reliant on global neoliberalism's ongoing effort to provide mountains of evidence for just how morally and intellectually bankrupt it really is.

I really do worry about whether the timing is going to allow the necessary political change and then the necessary economic change in time.

Either way, having growth end before the necessary economic changes is likely to be disastrous. Thus, I am hoping we can preserve an economy that permits growth (which requires educated workers, healthy infrastructure, et cetera) a while longer.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by madd0ct0r »

does japan serve as a 'role model' here?

they didn't grow for, what, a decade? two?
It wasn't disastrous, as Japan still functioned well as a developed society, easily survived a honking great earthquake, tsunami and aftermath and continues to innovate technologically.

is disaster guaranteed? why?
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

madd0ct0r wrote:does japan serve as a 'role model' here?

they didn't grow for, what, a decade? two?
It wasn't disastrous, as Japan still functioned well as a developed society, easily survived a honking great earthquake, tsunami and aftermath and continues to innovate technologically.

is disaster guaranteed? why?
They have a ticking time bomb in population. They're too xenophobic to allow many foreigners in to do their work, but they're not fucking like rabbits enough to replace the people who are retiring. It's not unlike Saudi in ways. The Japanese invested in government bonds and have helped prop up the economy through these long years of stagnation. Only, when it comes to their baby boomers calling time on working, they'll be taking that money out of government and bank hands and that may pose a problem if they haven't gotten their economy sorted. They import a lot of food and energy, so their trade deficit is an issue to contend with too, much like the UK.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by K. A. Pital »

madd0ct0r wrote:does japan serve as a 'role model' here?

they didn't grow for, what, a decade? two?
It wasn't disastrous, as Japan still functioned well as a developed society, easily survived a honking great earthquake, tsunami and aftermath and continues to innovate technologically.

is disaster guaranteed? why?
Investments in Japan are a peculiarity - the foreigners are investing into companies that generally do not "grow" or have a high potential for growth, they invest in so-called "safe havens" and that's definetely not what is moving capitalism forward. Japan is, if I may be frank, a techno-feudal society. It is heavily dependent on the surrounding capitalist world to exist - the presence of more risky investments makes Japan worthwhile as a safe investment. It is even more dependent on pre-achieved position - which is a shaky advantage when S. Korea, China and others are poised to pretty much repeat the industrialization of Japan, but with even greater success and more future options (China isn't nearly as xenophobic as Japan).

What if the entire world was like Japan? Let's see. Japan's debt is many times their GDP and only their position as a First World country is helping them with that. Investment is in decline, and what has been sustaned, was sustained through borrowing. Which means:
Economics of Japan's Lost Decades wrote:As a result of sustained period of high government deficits, Japan has extremely elevated ratios of general government debt — both net and gross — to nominal GDP. Its ratio of general government net debt to nominal GDP is the highest among G-7 countries, as shown in Figure 24, and is noticeably higher than other advanced countries
Also, real wages are declining in Japan. Just think about that - in a world with no growth, wages are constantly falling to make room for profits still to be made. :lol: I doubt that's gonna last too long.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Zaune »

Stas Bush wrote:Also, real wages are declining in Japan. Just think about that - in a world with no growth, wages are constantly falling to make room for profits still to be made. :lol: I doubt that's gonna last too long.
You needn't sound quite so cheerful about the prospect.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Ekiqa »

Zaune wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Also, real wages are declining in Japan. Just think about that - in a world with no growth, wages are constantly falling to make room for profits still to be made. :lol: I doubt that's gonna last too long.
You needn't sound quite so cheerful about the prospect.
I'd be cheerful if it means the end of capitalism.
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Re: Austerity paper got it wrong

Post by Zaune »

Operative word here being "if". I personally think it's equally likely to result in a huge amount of collateral damage for not much gain.
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