Was it really not foreseen that millions would come? Syria is being savaged between Assad and ISIS.
It's being ravaged by Assad and and the various rebel factions, which includes ISIS. Most of the fighting is going on in the Western urban part of the country while ISIS controls the (relatively) rural parts of the country.
People keep on acting as if ISIS is the end all, be all of this crisis. It isn't. Hell, driving into work tonight the radio had an interview with a Syrian who fled because the FSA was conscripting people in his town. It's a colossal shitstorm that is far more complicated than "the guy who used chemical weapons" and "the guys who throw you off the roof if you're gay".
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Well, people keep referring to the refugees as "Syrians" as if they all were when in fact they come from a variety of nations. Yes, Syrians are a large part of the refugee crisis but they aren't the whole of it.
Comes down, in many cases, to being too lazy to type out all the details. I know I'm guilty of that on occasion.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Purple wrote:I disagree. These people are not malevolent. They are panicking. They fear that the society they live in and have helped build is going to get torn down, that the values they hold dear are going to get subverted as the population demographics change around them. I think that the way to do it is to explain why even if they are 100% right they still don't have anything to worry about. And than when they realize this and calm down, than you can explain that they are not even right in the first place.
I don't think that will work, because their lack of calm comes from deep (mistaken) views about Muslims and about how inclusiveness and liberal society function. They're scared because they don't understand how strong and durable their own institutions are, they're scared because they think the refugees are hate-maddened ogres.
But if you do not engage the belief that the refugees are ogres, if you do not combat that, then it won't matter how much faith they have in their institutions. Because they'll still be thinking "why would I want to live next to a bunch of ogres?"
cosmicalstorm wrote:Is Merkel schizophrenic?
Things are about to get very ugly in Greece and the Balkans.
The EU is coming apart..?
No. You idiot. The rate at which refugees are pouring into Germany is oustripping their emergency infrastructure. The southern german states cannot handle the influx anymore, and neither for that matter can Austria.
Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland are going to have to actually pull their share of the weight, but in the interim, those countries cannot be allowed to fob their share of the refugee burden (read: Basic human decency) off on the countries in the EU that are filled with something other than a bunch of racist xenophobic twats like you.
Greece and the Balkans probably cannot take very many (and Balkans, ewww), but Hungary and the Czechs certainly can.
As a result, the Belfast agreement (if I remember correctly) has to be enforced.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
cosmicalstorm wrote:Is Merkel schizophrenic?
Things are about to get very ugly in Greece and the Balkans.
The EU is coming apart..?
No. You idiot. The rate at which refugees are pouring into Germany is oustripping their emergency infrastructure. The southern german states cannot handle the influx anymore, and neither for that matter can Austria.
Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland are going to have to actually pull their share of the weight,
If the refugees had wanted to go there, they would have gone there. By the time they reach Hungary they are far, far away from the camps in Lebanon and Turkey.
So what's the big plan? They arrive in Hungary, want to move on to Germany(and let's be honest here, Germany's resources far outstrip Hungary's in QOL assurances they can give the refugees)...then what? Hungary puts them in jail to prevent them from simply walking to Germany?
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
For all the talk about how many refugees there are... something tells me this is a lot like a kid cycling with the training wheels on, in comparison to future waves of climate change refugees we might have to look forward to in 50-100 years, if things go as bad as I imagine they will on that front.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
Thanas wrote:As to the recent border controls, we cannot handle 13k refugees a day. That is blowing every projection out of the water. 500k is okay. 800k is manageable. Several million are not.
>sigh<
Was it really not foreseen that millions would come? Syria is being savaged between Assad and ISIS. There are 20 million or so in Syria (or was, not too long ago). If even 1 in 10 were to flee that's still 2 million refugees and all indications are that it will be more than that.
No, but it wasn't foreseen that out of 28 EU countries more than half would refuse to do shit and the other half (save Austria and Sweden) decides to half-ass it.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Thanas wrote:As to the recent border controls, we cannot handle 13k refugees a day. That is blowing every projection out of the water. 500k is okay. 800k is manageable. Several million are not.
>sigh<
Was it really not foreseen that millions would come? Syria is being savaged between Assad and ISIS. There are 20 million or so in Syria (or was, not too long ago). If even 1 in 10 were to flee that's still 2 million refugees and all indications are that it will be more than that.
No, but it wasn't foreseen that out of 28 EU countries more than half would refuse to do shit and the other half (save Austria and Sweden) decides to half-ass it.
Although given the anti-migration rhetoric that was occurring in many parts of Europe before the refugees crisis, I'm not really surprised. There's already been huge resentment towards other EU nationals from moving in to England, and that's talking about people who mostly share many cultural values with most English. Islamophobia have yet to be resolved, especially in light of the Charlie Hedbo killings.
When you read comments in left-leaning newspapers talking about closing doors on migration and Muslims being anti-liberal, it's really unlikely that many politicians would value human rights over getting elected.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Thanas wrote:No, but it wasn't foreseen that out of 28 EU countries more than half would refuse to do shit and the other half (save Austria and Sweden) decides to half-ass it.
They suffer from the delusion that this can be made somebody else's problem.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Nothing was foreseen because in order to foresee something you actaully have to devote time to an issue. The Merkel government chose to completely ignore the the issue for the past few years. Hence, the lack of a plan. There were plenty of voices warning her of exactly this scenario and she didn´t give a rats ass about it.
But we´ll keep electing her for the next two election cycles anyway, so she doesn´t really have to care.
cosmicalstorm wrote:Is Merkel schizophrenic?
Things are about to get very ugly in Greece and the Balkans.
The EU is coming apart..?
No. You idiot. The rate at which refugees are pouring into Germany is oustripping their emergency infrastructure. The southern german states cannot handle the influx anymore, and neither for that matter can Austria.
Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland are going to have to actually pull their share of the weight,
If the refugees had wanted to go there, they would have gone there. By the time they reach Hungary they are far, far away from the camps in Lebanon and Turkey.
So what's the big plan? They arrive in Hungary, want to move on to Germany(and let's be honest here, Germany's resources far outstrip Hungary's in QOL assurances they can give the refugees)...then what? Hungary puts them in jail to prevent them from simply walking to Germany?
Actually, Hungary is currently housing and supplying twice to three times as much refugees as Austria does. And dealing with all the arrrivals that are moving on to Austria and Germany. Percentage of Population wise, only Sweden cares for more refugeees as Hungary does. The media are focussing on Hungary no longer able to deal with the influx of refugees without Austria and Germany constantly taking people in, but this is due to the fact that Hungary has already been pulling beyond their weight for two years, already.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay
Thanas wrote:No, but it wasn't foreseen that out of 28 EU countries more than half would refuse to do shit and the other half (save Austria and Sweden) decides to half-ass it.
They suffer from the delusion that this can be made somebody else's problem.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
that's a 2 hour video. he dosen't say anything except smirk for the first 5 minutes. Can you at least give me a hint of any bit of it that is worth my time?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
madd0ct0r wrote:that's a 2 hour video. he dosen't say anything except smirk for the first 5 minutes. Can you at least give me a hint of any bit of it that is worth my time?
it is only his opinion piece, but he goes through the various points of view and up to date news items. he is arguing from the nativist position, obviously. I think it is well worth a view rather than watching, say, 2 hours of the walking dead for instance, being that this deals with real life and all.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
yes, but I don't watch the walking dead either. I've got a development engineering conference to organise. Is this video worth my time?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
madd0ct0r wrote:yes, but I don't watch the walking dead either. I've got a development engineering conference to organise. Is this video worth my time?
That being the case, i'd wait till you had some free time
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
Do you think you could at least give us the timestamps of the pertinent bits?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin
Minute 1:15 is pretty much the only thing you need to see that the film is a pile of steaming crap.
The movie shows a clip from the BBC. A bunch of refugees are greeted by locals and then we see the first thing done by the maker of this nonsense. He pauses the BBC video and highlights a refugee with a smart phone and plays some dark sound.
Now, the "refugees with smart phones" thing has been complained about to death by right wing idiots so we can assume that the rest of the movie is just a large pile of shit as well.
Anybody who doesn´t understand why a refugee might bring his phone is too fucking dumb to have a conversation with.
Oh, god, I just watched 20 or so minutes of that video and it contains all standard idiot talking points. He´s just a standard racists spouting his bullshit.
Replacing the native population, it´s only men no women and children, they don´t look poor enough but are here for economic reasons, the men should be defending their country..... and so on.
To be fair, I think that able-bodied adult male refugees on the run from oppression ARE arguably doing the wrong thing- if everyone in Syria with an interest in fighting Da'esh and the potential to be a good soldier actually did fight Da'esh, I doubt they'd last a month, and they certainly wouldn't make any territorial gains. The same could be said of any of the other armed groups in the country.
EDIT: That said, this is no worse a failure on their part than countless other examples of 'tragedy of the commons' thinking all over the world. And it is a far more sympathetic and understandable case than most.
Also bear in mind that IIRC at least in some parts of the Middle East (can't say for Syria specifically) there are large majorities of young unattached men floating around due to various reasons (difficult to find a spouse, spouses being married into polygamous families, and so forth). These men have basically three options-- wait around to very likely get killed, join someone and get shot at/do some shooting back, or get out of Dodge. One isn't very palatable, two requires a certain amount of fortitude and/or conviction, and the last allows a certain amount of hope (let's get to a safe place, maybe find a job, my relative says he's doing well, when things get better we'll return...)
Since we believe that able bodied female people can fight that would leave only children as "real" refugees.
I strongly disagree with you. I don´t think anybody should be morally obliged to join whatever army controls the region you live in.
The way it is at the moment is that the government drafts people. The Kurds do the same in the areas they control. ISIS and other rebels don´t draft but some people have little other options than join for financial reasons or flee the country.
Really, this is more complex than saying "If you´d unite and fight for your country you´d solve the problems."
Which faction is the "correct" one? The government? Is Assad the right choices? The Kurds? Al-Qaida (I guess not), ISIS (not at all), some other rebell faction?
FSA is forcibly recruiting from the population as well, or at least some asylum seekers are claiming so.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
madd0ct0r wrote:that's a 2 hour video. he dosen't say anything except smirk for the first 5 minutes. Can you at least give me a hint of any bit of it that is worth my time?
it is only his opinion piece, but he goes through the various points of view and up to date news items. he is arguing from the nativist position, obviously. I think it is well worth a view rather than watching, say, 2 hours of the walking dead for instance, being that this deals with real life and all.
I worked fucking 10 hours on my goddamned feet dealing with the public and real life today, I don't need you to surprise me with 2 hour video YOU think is educational. Some of us have shit to do and two hours spent watching whatever bullshit you decide to post is two hours I don't have to spend taking care of my home, my family, and my friends.
Either post a transcript or summary I can scan for points of interest or try again.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Since we believe that able bodied female people can fight that would leave only children as "real" refugees.
I strongly disagree with you. I don´t think anybody should be morally obliged to join whatever army controls the region you live in.
The way it is at the moment is that the government drafts people. The Kurds do the same in the areas they control. ISIS and other rebels don´t draft but some people have little other options than join for financial reasons or flee the country.
Really, this is more complex than saying "If you´d unite and fight for your country you´d solve the problems."
Which faction is the "correct" one? The government? Is Assad the right choices? The Kurds? Al-Qaida (I guess not), ISIS (not at all), some other rebell faction?
This is a good point. I would leave that decision up to the arab league or somesuch. Something along the lines of:
"hey y'all, now that you're safe in Europe, the Arab league will be taking you in and splitting you into groups to go to the following countries: (See lists above)
You can get preferential treatment and get higher on the list of 'where you'd like to go' and better accomodations when you get there if any MAM's in your family will agree to train to go and kill ISIS. Any takers?"
I am assuming of course that this is all in the context of "we've all united to kill ISIS" and sort out the territorial details later.
Again, this doesn't mean that people with essential skills that the destination countries need can't be offered better accomodations either.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
