Russian war criminal killed in Donetsk

[K. A. Pital]

Because your preferred course of action is intentionally causing more death and destruction - among people who weren't even born in '41, no less.

My course of action is "intentionally causing more death and destruction"? How?

And guess how your counterparts on the other side will react.

I have no counterparts on the other side.

As long as monsters like you keep the hate alive, there can never be peace.

Thrilled to know I'm a monster and there can never be peace. With whom?

How you had to crawl through the trenches in '42. Remember it like it was yesterday. Ohhh the humanity.

Like I said, if you can't convince a person in many generations after the events have transpired, fat chance at convincing anyone at all to forget. And why should anyone?

How should the Soviet people prevent another such dastardly invasion so horrible kiddies born in the 90s remember it? How about starting a conflict between two largest constituent nations of the former USSR. That'll do it.

What did you even mean by that, what was your point? Hard to tell, you're cryptic as always. There's no more Soviet people, I have no idea about the horrible kiddies who were born in the 1990s, and I think that it's pretty obvious to you that in my view the entire Russian-Ukrainian conflict is a fight of two plutocratic, oligarchic capitalist elites produced by pathetic rump states in the 1990s.

A whole new generation of Ukrainians has been given a brand new reason to despise Russia - and I recon a fair number of Russians have lost loved ones in the process, and will of course blame Ukraine for it

Nationalists don't need a lot of reasons to hate each other. Ever since nationalist elites came to power in the 1990s, the bloody spiral has been in the making. What I try to explain is that nobody is going to ever forget that there was once an invasion meant to wipe you out for good. And neither should they.

Trying to make people forget is going to achieve nothing. Just trigger the trauma in people's minds and force more of the siege mentality.

[AMX]

Because your preferred course of action is intentionally causing more death and destruction - among people who weren't even born in '41, no less.

My course of action is "intentionally causing more death and destruction"? How?

Sorry, that was unclear - not "your course of action" (the things you do), but "your preferred course of action" (the things you recommend and approve of).
You know, the whole "destabilize the neighboring countries so they collapse in civil war" thing.

And guess how your counterparts on the other side will react.

I have no counterparts on the other side.

Of course you have - you're a pro-Russian revanchist idiot, and there are plenty of anti-Russian revanchist idiots.

As long as monsters like you keep the hate alive, there can never be peace.

Thrilled to know I'm a monster and there can never be peace. With whom?

At least you know what you are
That bit is general - any place that has a history of armed conflict, and revanchist idiots influencing policy, will continue to suffer armed conflict.

A whole new generation of Ukrainians has been given a brand new reason to despise Russia - and I recon a fair number of Russians have lost loved ones in the process, and will of course blame Ukraine for it

Nationalists don't need a lot of reasons to hate each other. Ever since nationalist elites came to power in the 1990s, the bloody spiral has been in the making.

Nationalism is certainly a factor - but revanchism is a major contributor.

What I try to explain is that nobody is going to ever forget that there was once an invasion meant to wipe you out for good. And neither should they.

The post I responded to was not an explanation - it was an obvious approval.

[Kane Starkiller]

Like I said, if you can't convince a person in many generations after the events have transpired, fat chance at convincing anyone at all to forget. And why should anyone?

Try to convince you or the rest of Russians to "forget" something that is not in their living memory? To forgive something that never happened to them and they learned it from history books? I don't really have any interest in convincing Russians to let go of their manufactured outrage merely to point out that it is in fact manufactured and nothing more than an excuse for expansionism and imperialism.

What did you even mean by that, what was your point? Hard to tell, you're cryptic as always. There's no more Soviet people, I have no idea about the horrible kiddies who were born in the 1990s, and I think that it's pretty obvious to you that in my view the entire Russian-Ukrainian conflict is a fight of two plutocratic, oligarchic capitalist elites produced by pathetic rump states in the 1990s.

Extra points on attempted moral relativism .
Yeah yeah it's all about "oligarchic elites" fighting each other, "rump states","plutocrats", etc...yeah let's muddy the waters, talk about generalities in the former USSR not about who is the clear aggressor and who is the victim in the conflict.
Wait I thought this was all about "never forget, never forgive"? Didn't you agree with Sea Skimmer just a page ago? Don't forgive the Ukrainians?

[K. A. Pital]

Sorry, that was unclear - not "your course of action" (the things you do), but "your preferred course of action" (the things you recommend and approve of). You know, the whole "destabilize the neighboring countries so they collapse in civil war" thing.

I don't approve of this, unless it furthers my goals. In this case it does not, at least not directly, so your pathos is misdirected.

Of course you have - you're a pro-Russian revanchist idiot, and there are plenty of anti-Russian revanchist idiots.

I am anything but a revanchist. My goal is to utilize the contradictions inherent in the current system to bring it down. Russia is lost to reaction and revanchism, so no longer relevant unless only as a distractor and agent of chaos in the global system.

At least you know what you are

I never denied it and you're not the only one here who thinks that.

Nationalism is certainly a factor - but revanchism is a major contributor.

Revanchism is a byproduct of nationalism on one side and a resentment on a national level on the other side. When the two combine, you get different forms of violence.

The post I responded to was not an explanation - it was an obvious approval.

And neither should they. Even if there should come a time when there will be no need in these memories, this time certainly has not come. These memories should be conserved in a never forgive-never forget fashion and not, under no circumstances, be lost.

I don't really have any interest in convincing Russians to let go of their manufactured outrage merely to point out that it is in fact manufactured and nothing more than an excuse for expansionism and imperialism.

That's why - you have no interest in convincing those whose feelings are exploited by nationalists in that these nationalists are wrong. But the mentality will not change. To whose benefit would your disinterested position work?

There have been many things which are far away from living memory of the current generation, but which live in national memory and are remembered collectively. Especially traumatic events. Ukrainians on their side are highly unlikely to forget the hunger of 1933, are they not? Although most who live now never saw any of it.

Why would Russians or anyone with a traumatic event in the past be different? No reason to forget, no reason to forgive.

Extra points on attempted moral relativism

I don't have anything at all except moral relativism. Until now, absolute moral systems have been a total failure.

Don't forgive the Ukrainians?

For what? Obviously Nazi sympathizers can't be excused, forgiven or forgotten, just as no Nazi would forgive me or let me live. Pretty obvious. Moreover, Russians have very good reasons to never forget what happened - something which you don't. So why argue?

[AMX]

Sorry, that was unclear - not "your course of action" (the things you do), but "your preferred course of action" (the things you recommend and approve of). You know, the whole "destabilize the neighboring countries so they collapse in civil war" thing.

I don't approve of this, unless it furthers my goals. In this case it does not, at least not directly, so your pathos is misdirected.

Hrm... good enough, I suppose.
Feel free to not die in a fire, but you may want to work on your delivery.

[Kane Starkiller]

That's why - you have no interest in convincing those whose feelings are exploited by nationalists in that these nationalists are wrong. But the mentality will not change. To whose benefit would your disinterested position work?

There have been many things which are far away from living memory of the current generation, but which live in national memory and are remembered collectively. Especially traumatic events. Ukrainians on their side are highly unlikely to forget the hunger of 1933, are they not? Although most who live now never saw any of it.

Why would Russians or anyone with a traumatic event in the past be different? No reason to forget, no reason to forgive.

There is no "collective" memory. Either you experienced it or you read about it. The only feelings you get are the ones you whip yourself into intentionally or use as an excuse for domineering behaviour.
There is but a tiny fraction of Russians today that actually remember WW2, the rest only "remember" it when they need to explain to themselves why Russia has a moral right to rampage across Ukraine. It is self serving bullshit and completely transparent at that. To try to convince those people to "forgive and forget" would be an exercise in futility. Thus I have no interest in it. Only in exposing it when I see people peddling those imperialistic excuses. Like you are doing now.

I don't have anything at all except moral relativism. Until now, absolute moral systems have been a total failure.

And on you go! Speeding away from the actual point of Russian aggression in Ukraine and into generalized discussions about plutocrats, oligarchs, value of absolute moral systems...as if my usage of the phrase "moral relativism" was to invite you to some discussion about fancy philosophical constructs rather than pointing out your attempts to equalize Russia and Ukraine morally in this conflict. And as if you were under the impression that was what I meant. I said you were a slippery one!

For what? Obviously Nazi sympathizers can't be excused, forgiven or forgotten, just as no Nazi would forgive me or let me live. Pretty obvious. Moreover, Russians have very good reasons to never forget what happened - something which you don't. So why argue?

You tell me. You were the one excusing Russian behaviour in Ukraine with the sappy "never forget never forgive" line. Sea Skimmer was talking about purely geopolitical matters but then you jumped in all melodramatic 'n shit
But I like how you graciously allow for Ukrainians to be upset about 1933 hunger. You're so fair! Ukrainians get to be upset about something that happened in 1933 and Russians get to be upset about something that happened in 1941 and the fact only Russians have the power to act on those "frustrations" and take it out on Ukraine well that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Morality equalized!

[K. A. Pital]

There is no "collective" memory.

There is one. But that aside, I see your points are misdirected again. Did I say that having such memories means Russia needs to attack Ukraine? Or that memories give you a right to do something?

No.

But what it does mean is that Russians collectively should not trust the West. Westerners are no friends. End of story.

Even if the wipe-out has only been attempted once, this is existential and therefore should always be remembered.

You tell me. You were the one excusing Russian behaviour in Ukraine with the sappy "never forget never forgive" line.

Except, see above. This is not "excusing" Russia's behavior.

Ukrainians get to be upset about something that happened in 1933 and Russians get to be upset about something that happened in 1941 and the fact only Russians have the power to act on those "frustrations" and take it out on Ukraine well that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Morality equalized!

Ukrainians can be upset and even go Nazi if they like. I did not say memories mean you have a right to something. But should you forget past grievances? I don't think so.

Well, especially not grievances with those who came to wipe you out. And no, these were not the Ukrainians.

[His Divine Shadow]

Re the discussion on the previous page... I am thinking these sanctions might be having the opposite effect in the longer run. It has forced Russia to focus more on domestic production and consumption and in the long run will force them to build a more self-reliant economy with more jobs for russians rather than relying on cheap imports. The transition has been painful for an economy like Russias but it seems they're nearing the turning point soon.

I think a lot of people are worried that Russia will make a successful go of it despite sanctions. As that would shows there are other roads to growth than the commonly accepted capitalist globalist path that we must all follow if we don't free trade and privatise everything ever we'll become north korea!!!1111 hurrrrrr

It reminds of how people were upset at Iceland and Malaysia succeeding despite their evil capital controls flying in the face of neoliberal dogma.

[K. A. Pital]

The decoupling is overestimated.

After the disaster of the 1990s, Russia's economy has grown extremely dependent on oil and gas exports. Nowadays what happens is that they try to recouple their cash flows, but to China instead.

Of course, should Russia succeed, it would represent a major problem for the First World nations. Even if it succeeds in a very primitive recoupling with China (oil in exchange for consumer goods produced there), this would still be a problem because Russia cannot be functionally isolated and, unlike North Korea, has many lucrative exports, at least for China - aviation technology, processes and raw metals, oil and gas, even intangible products (cinema, online trade).

But shouldn't the collusion of two biggest anti-Western economies (Russia and China) worry you?

[His Divine Shadow]

I can't say it worries me no. China and Russia are far less able to hurt the western world than we are ourselves.

The primary worry I have, are the people in charge of western economies, which is; they are basically destroying our societies.