Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

[Purple]

Is more integration really a good thing though? There are plenty of people who would argue that the EU is already integrated more than enough.

The goal of the EU is to create a multi-state entity like the US, and that's the aim of many European countries. The UK seems mostly interested for its economic benefits and not for what the EU is actually about.

That's the stated goal, yes. But looking at how well it is panning out so far and how well the EU reacts to recent crisis such as the recent economic collapse or the migrant situation as a unified force for common good of all member states as opposed to a bunch of states each pulling their own way even if it means driving some to the brink of bankruptcy, screwing others over and such you have to wonder if that goal is something that needs serious reconsideration.

[ray245]

Is more integration really a good thing though? There are plenty of people who would argue that the EU is already integrated more than enough.

The goal of the EU is to create a multi-state entity like the US, and that's the aim of many European countries. The UK seems mostly interested for its economic benefits and not for what the EU is actually about.

That's the stated goal, yes. But looking at how well it is panning out so far and how well the EU reacts to recent crisis such as the recent economic collapse or the migrant situation as a unified force for common good of all member states as opposed to a bunch of states each pulling their own way even if it means driving some to the brink of bankruptcy, screwing others over and such you have to wonder if that goal is something that needs serious reconsideration.

It's more like many states joined the EU without realising that was actually a goal that some states are actually pushing for.

[Purple]

It's more like many states joined the EU without realising that was actually a goal that some states are actually pushing for.

Which is why the EU as a whole needs to step back and reevaluate if that goal is representative of the actual will of its citizens. Better do so early rather than letting things advance to the point where the whole thing fractures as member states push back until not only the project fails and the EU looses the expected future wealth but also the good it has now.

[ray245]

It's more like many states joined the EU without realising that was actually a goal that some states are actually pushing for.

Which is why the EU as a whole needs to step back and reevaluate if that goal is representative of the actual will of its citizens. Better do so early rather than letting things advance to the point where the whole thing fractures as member states push back until not only the project fails and the EU looses the expected future wealth but also the good it has now.

To be honest, the EU has overreached in trying to expand over the past 2 decades. It's clear many states joined the EU purely for its economic benefits and not in its political ideas, as shown by the recent refugee crisis.

[Purple]

It's more like many states joined the EU without realising that was actually a goal that some states are actually pushing for.

Which is why the EU as a whole needs to step back and reevaluate if that goal is representative of the actual will of its citizens. Better do so early rather than letting things advance to the point where the whole thing fractures as member states push back until not only the project fails and the EU looses the expected future wealth but also the good it has now.

To be honest, the EU has overreached in trying to expand over the past 2 decades. It's clear many states joined the EU purely for its economic benefits and not in its political ideas, as shown by the recent refugee crisis.

Well yea, absolutely. But the EU can't exactly kick them out for that reason. Well it could but that would be a massively insanely costly thing that would benefit nobody. And the only other option is a reality check.

[Starglider]

I want them to leave because I don't want them to have all those special privileges nobody else gets.

The UK doesn't want 'special privilidges'. They are basic sovereign rights that all countries should have. It's just sad that the Merkelreich has the rest of the EU too intimidated to stand up for itself. As I have stated before, the major argument for the UK to remain inside the EU is to delay, degrade and sabotage Merkel's attempts to recreate the GDR (with bonus China-style crony corporatism) on a continental scale. Currently we can do that better inside than out.

[Thanas]

Evidence Merkel wants to recreate the GDR?

[Crazedwraith]

Boris Johnson to campaign to leave

Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson has said he has decided "after a huge amount of heartache" to campaign for Britain to leave the EU.
He said the EU was eroding British sovereignty and PM David Cameron's reform deal would not bring about the fundamental change that was needed.
His decision pits him against Mr Cameron, who says Britain will be "safer and stronger" within the EU.
The prime minister says leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".
The announcement by Mr Johnson, who many believe has ambitions to lead the Conservative party, follows intense speculation about which side he would back.

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mr Johnson's decision would be seen as a huge boost to the Out campaign and a major blow to the prime minister, who had hoped to persuade friends and rivals to back the campaign to remain.
She said Mr Johnson, MP for Uxbridge and Ruislip South, informed Mr Cameron of his decision via text message shortly before making it public.
Addressing reporters outside his home in north London, Mr Johnson said the EU was a "political project" that was in "real danger of getting out of proper democratic control".
He said UK sovereignty - the power of Britain to govern itself - was being "very greatly eroded" by EU institutions, with "too much judicial activism" and legislation coming out of the EU.

Mr Johnson praised the prime minister for the deal he negotiated with EU leaders to reform Britain's relationship with the EU, saying Mr Cameron had done "fantastically well" in a short space of time.
"But I don't think anybody could realistically claim this is fundamental reform of the EU or of Britain's relationship with the EU," he said.
The MP added: "It's my view... we have a chance, actually to do something. I have a chance to do something," saying he wanted a new relationship with the EU based more on "trade and co-operation".
"I want a better deal for the people of this country, to save them money and to take back control," he said.
He denied his decision had anything to do with leadership ambitions, stressing that he made up his mind "after a huge amount of heartache" because the last thing he wanted to do was defy Mr Cameron.
He said he would be backing the Vote Leave campaign - one of two groups seeking the official designation - but ruled out taking part in TV debates against members of his party.
'Safer and stronger'
Speaking to the BBC, Mr Cameron had earlier issued a last-ditch plea to Mr Johnson to back staying in the EU.
He said if Mr Johnson cared about "getting things done" in the world, being a member of the EU was key.
And, he added, "linking arms" with Nigel Farage and George Galloway - part of the Grassroots Out movement which is vying to become the official Leave campaign - was "taking a leap into the dark and is the wrong step for our country".
Mr Cameron argued that the UK is "better, safer and stronger" being in the EU.
And he said that withdrawing from the 28-member bloc might give the "illusion of sovereignty" but would actually weaken the UK's power and influence.

However, his argument for remaining in the union was not enough to convince Mr Johnson, who joins six ministers who attend cabinet in backing the campaign to leave.
Among them are Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Justice Secretary Michael Gove.
Zac Goldsmith, who is hoping to become Mr Johnson's successor as London mayor in May, has also said he will vote to leave.

I think the stay campaign is in serious trouble now. Boris wouldn't sign up with out if he didn't think it was going to win and leave him in a very good position to succeed Cameron.

[Tribble]

To be fair, the last time the UK had a referendum on the issue was in 1973, and that was a vote to remain in the European Economic Community. The European Union is a much different beast than what was going on back then. Additional treaties were signed without the public having a direct say on the matter. In fact, IIRC the Lisbon Treaty was signed without a public referendum even though the government at the time had specifically promised to hold one as part of their election campaign. Which the court ruled as perfectly legit due to parliamentary sovereignty and all that. Perfectly legal, morally reprehensible. Hindsight being 20/20, if the EU had pressured that government into honouring its commitments and holding a referendum things may have been better off, as whatever the result at least it would have been a public decision. I can certainly understand why a lot off people in the UK are Euroskeptics - if they can't trust their own elected government to keep its word, why should they trust the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? If the UK leaves there would be only one set of scheming politicians and bureaucrats they'd have to deal with, and they would all be within strangling distance.

[jwl]

What were the final concessions offered by the EU?

If the UK votes to remain, is the EU obligated to follow through with the deal? In my (limited) understanding of how the EU works, any alternations would have to be ratified by all the members via treaty amendment. What happens if the UK votes to remain, and some EU members refuse to go along with it?

If the UK votes to leave, would that actually happen? In the UK parliament is sovereign, and no matter how much Cameron says the referendum is binding the reality is it's not. IMO it would probably take an act in parliament before the UK formally starts the withdrawal process. Is it possible in the event of a "yes" vote to leave for the UK government to drag things out and essentially ignore the results?

It is possible for Parliament to give power to a referendum, it's just try reserve the right to anull it with another vote afterwards. The problem is: UKIP. Remember when after the Scottish referendum there was a huge swing to SNP after the next general election, to the expense of Labour? Well they hadn't just voted to reverse a referendum result.

Assuming there isn't enough of a political earthquake for UKIP to actually win, if there is a hung Parliment with a large enough UKIP presence a Tory-UKIP coalition is pretty much guaranteed. The reason being: Labour and the Tories define themselves in opposition to each other to some extent, and even if they were willing to go for a grand coalition the electoral fallout of doing so is a good way to make sure UKIP actually wins next time.

If UKIP were to get a whiff of power they would not only make sure the UK actually left they would also attempt to use the UK's influence to destroy the EU altogether.

The same kind of thing would happen if the EU didn't come good on their side of the deal, just with a smaller magnitude.

[K. A. Pital]

The UK doesn't want 'special privilidges'. They are basic sovereign rights that all countries should have. It's just sad that the Merkelreich has the rest of the EU too intimidated to stand up for itself. As I have stated before, the major argument for the UK to remain inside the EU is to delay, degrade and sabotage Merkel's attempts to recreate the GDR (with bonus China-style crony corporatism) on a continental scale. Currently we can do that better inside than out.

Your trolling is too obvious and boring to even reply to.

[Iroscato]

The UK doesn't want 'special privilidges'. They are basic sovereign rights that all countries should have. It's just sad that the Merkelreich has the rest of the EU too intimidated to stand up for itself. As I have stated before, the major argument for the UK to remain inside the EU is to delay, degrade and sabotage Merkel's attempts to recreate the GDR (with bonus China-style crony corporatism) on a continental scale. Currently we can do that better inside than out.

Your trolling is too obvious and boring to even reply to.

Eh, sounds like an average Daily Mail commentor to me.

[mr friendly guy]

Silly question. If the Brits vote no, when do they leave the EU? Right away? End of the year?

[Hillary]

Silly question. If the Brits vote no, when do they leave the EU? Right away? End of the year?

Not right away - the referendum is not binding so there'll have to be a bill passed through Parliament before it can happen. If the turnout is low and the result tight, I can see some argument over how much of a mandate for exit the vote would be. Don't expect a bill to be pushed through quickly, is my opinion, unless the vote is massively in favour of an exit (unlikely, I'd have thought).

The process of extracting the UK from the EU is presumably not an particularly quick process either.

[Lord Revan]

Based on what was said in this thread I'd say UK will leave the EU in 2018 at the earliest (assuming EU doesn't simply disband before that) and that's assuming the bill is rushed thru the british Parliament so that part is essentially instant.

[FTeik]

I want them to leave because I don't want them to have all those special privileges nobody else gets.

The UK doesn't want 'special privilidges'. They are basic sovereign rights that all countries should have. It's just sad that the Merkelreich has the rest of the EU too intimidated to stand up for itself. As I have stated before, the major argument for the UK to remain inside the EU is to delay, degrade and sabotage Merkel's attempts to recreate the GDR (with bonus China-style crony corporatism) on a continental scale. Currently we can do that better inside than out.

You can see how intimidated the "rest of the EU" is by the "Merkelreich" when you look at how much help Merkel gets with the refugee-crisis - little to none.

As for the referendum about a Brexit I remember the Greeks having one about "reforms" some time ago and we all know how that ended.

Question: what happens if the referendum goes through, the Brits vote on leaving the EU and Cameron and Co. don't follow through, because their friends and sponsors from the City of London (the bankers) say no?

[His Divine Shadow]

Riots? Hopefully aimed at the rich neighborhoods then and not just whereever they happen to be living.

[Crazedwraith]

And likely political death for all involved as well and Mass Defection of Eurosceptic to UKIP.

On the other hand if the UK votes leave as whole but Scotland voted to stay. New desire for independence on their part. There's already Nicola Sturgeon warning of such,

[NecronLord]

Question: what happens if the referendum goes through, the Brits vote on leaving the EU and Cameron and Co. don't follow through, because their friends and sponsors from the City of London (the bankers) say no?

Replacement of Cameron as leader of the conservative party and the party petitioning the queen to have the new leader appointed Prime Minister (which would be accepted). In the event that the tory party didn't do that, most likely vote of no-confidence from tory defectors and the labour party to disband the government and call a new election, probably with the winner having a mandate to remove the thousand year old legal privileges of the City of London Corporation, too, if they were found to be interfering with democracy that heavily.

Defiant refusal to comply with the referendum results is not a realistic option.

[Vendetta]

Replacement of Cameron as leader of the conservative party and the party petitioning the queen to have the new leader appointed Prime Minister (which would be accepted).

Doesn't matter whether they comply with the referendum or not, if the vote is Out after he campaigned to stay, Cameron is out on his ear. The question isn't whether there's a leadership challenge, it's how fast and who. Even if the vote is a close In I would expect a leadership challenge.

[Crazedwraith]

Cameron's going in the next couple years whatever happens. He's not standing at the Next General Election.

[NecronLord]

Quite so. There's no fiesable way he can actually go 'no, we're not doing that' after a referendum, which was the point, not that he'll survive if we leave the EU. Mind you, no matter how much I may hate Cameron, I'm still hoping for a stay vote. I've yet to meet a real-life euroskeptic who's not also got some bizarre delusions about the British Empire and how the commonwealth will ride to the rescue, as if India is really waiting to give us bonza deals, but just can't because they hate the EU soo much.

[mr friendly guy]

Quite so. There's no fiesable way he can actually go 'no, we're not doing that' after a referendum, which was the point, not that he'll survive if we leave the EU. Mind you, no matter how much I may hate Cameron, I'm still hoping for a stay vote. I've yet to meet a real-life euroskeptic who's not also got some bizarre delusions about the British Empire and how the commonwealth will ride to the rescue, as if India is really waiting to give us bonza deals, but just can't because they hate the EU soo much.

Wait, Eurosceptics actually believe the Commonwealth will "rescue" you guys.

Back in high school I was taught in economics that the UK loved to trade with Australia back in the day. Then the Brits "did something naughty to use," (my economic teacher's words, not mine). They ended up joining the EU and favouring trade to Europe instead of us. This forced us to seek new trading partners, in this case the US and Japan. Our number one trading partner now is the PRC.

So for us to rescue the UK's trade would be so ironic Alanis Morisette can write a new song about it.

[Vendetta]

Cameron's going in the next couple years whatever happens. He's not standing at the Next General Election.

True, but there's a difference between him stepping down but able to pass on the mantle to a designated successor (Osbog) and the knives coming out if he doesn't look like he made his case well enough or he was on the wrong side.

Wait, Eurosceptics actually believe the Commonwealth will "rescue" you guys.

Eurosceptics don't tend to be big thinkers. They don't really go in for complicated things like international trade, there's far more hay to be made on the "but muh sovereignty!" angle.

[jwl]

For some reason this is in the front page of youtube:


I think the Independence from Europe giant octopus video is vastly preferable to this.