Uber drivers living in cars

[ray245]

Many people want better taxi service. There are ways to accomplish that. There are ways to accomplish that without letting some random bunch of assholes extract all the profit, while leaving everyone else to overpay for a service or be underpaid for their labor. There are ways to accomplish that without letting everyone drown in externality costs.

My point is that the free market will 'solve' problems in accordance with the reasoning of a 'blind idiot god.' It follows its own rules, not rules we want it to follow. The 'efficient' solution created by a market may or may not actually be better than the solution it replaced, depending on specific details. So it is just plain a terrible argument to say "many people want a better solution, so let's open it up to the market and stop worrying about the details."

The market MAY provide a good answer. But you cannot simply trust the market's answer, you have to error-check. You have to make sure it didn't optimize for something stupid like "the system is now optimized to make sure literally all the money ends up sequestered in Travis Kalanick's pants" or "the system is now optimized so that thousands of bleary-eyed homeless people who haven't gotten their cars repoed YET will spend 100 hours a week trying and failing to make a living as Uber drivers; fares paid by customers for taxi service are 25% lower than they would be if the drivers were making a living wage."

I don't necessarily trust the market's "answers" either. But the market does give an indication that people want some adjustment to be made. It's up to humans to decide what kind of improvement is needed to meet people's demand.

Suffice to say that this is not what is happening in the US, and the article is specifically about the US.

It seems like the market isn't even working in the US accordingly. If you have a system where Uber basically monopolise the "sharing car" economy with no competition whatsoever, it is going to be somewhat problematic for everyone other than the company involved. It's really not THAT difficult to set up a similar kind of app.

Uber in places where they do face legitimate challenges found themselves paying more to attract drivers and passengers while making severe losses.

The use of subsidies turned Uber’s business model on its head. Typically, Uber takes a cut of about 25 per cent of the passenger’s fare and passes the rest of the fare on to the driver. Costs are kept low because Uber doesn’t employ the drivers, or own the cars. However, in China, Uber pays drivers a multiple of the passenger’s fare, meaning that the company loses money on most rides.

https://ig.ft.com/sites/uber-in-china/?mhq5j=e1

So most of the people who benefit from Uber competition are mostly the users AND the drivers, while the losers are venture capitalists and investors who think they can somehow make sufficient profits from such a system. Uber is bleeding cash all around the world, the only reason they can sustain is that they have an army of investors throwing cash at them. Uber itself isn't making as much profit as investors are expecting.

I don't see companies like Uber lasting out in the long run. It's not a business that is sustainable in the long run because an improved Taxi industry could easily take them down in the long run. Uber is exploiting the current weakness and problems within the Taxi industry ( poor tech/innovation, services, cost). It's only a matter of time before investors realise Uber isn't as profitable as they think. Neither should Uber drivers believe that this is an industry that can somehow be turned into a long-term career.

[Broomstick]

Which makes me wonder why do people even want Uber as a full-time job to begin with? If they desperately want a full-time job as a driver, shouldn't they try and get taxi licenses instead? It's like expecting to make a whole career earning high income from Macdonalds filipping burgers, when in actual fact all you will get is a basic living wage if you are lucky.

There are people desperate for work, who for whatever are having a problem finding a traditional job. In some cases there is a serious dysfunction but other instances might be linked to things like ageism, or having one's former profession rendered obsolete and no other significant skills to generate a decent income.

I don't know, I think being able to communicate easily is important for many customers. Perhaps improving on the language area will reduce Uber's advantages?

Too many people equate any accent whatsoever with "language problem". There's also out-and-out prejudice at work - I've known people afraid to take taxis for fear of a [insert trait here] driver.

I've taken taxis off and on for 30+ years. I've had as many problems with people with American English not being able to find their way out of a room with a prominent EXIT sign as problems with foreign language speakers, but overall I haven't had that many problems.

Damn if I know - the fact you have to have a smart phone means Uber is completely useless to me.

I think for some it might, in fact, be that "there's an app for that".

Then Taxi companies need to improve in that regard. It seems that the younger generation prefers to hail a cab with an app than to hail a cab in the streets.

I don't think it's app replacing street hail as an app for when there's no taxi at hand. Hailing a taxi from the sidewalk is pretty damn convenient and quick (unless you have "disqualifying" traits, like in some places dark skin, you're disabled, etc.). An app does have an advantage over calling up a taxi company (do you even have a local phone number for that if you're in a strange city?) and going through dispatch.

[Zaune]

I don't think it's app replacing street hail as an app for when there's no taxi at hand. Hailing a taxi from the sidewalk is pretty damn convenient and quick (unless you have "disqualifying" traits, like in some places dark skin, you're disabled, etc.). An app does have an advantage over calling up a taxi company (do you even have a local phone number for that if you're in a strange city?) and going through dispatch.

Am I the only person here who has almost never managed to hail a taxi on the street, except one time when they happened to be dropping off a fare right in front of me? I'm not sure if this is peculiar to the UK, an urban/rural thing or just because I don't take cabs very often.

And apps have the disadvantage of being tied to a single cab company. Generally you want to use a local firm because they're more likely to have drivers waiting in the vicinity, and in a lot of jurisdictions they probably aren't supposed to take bookings that originate outside the area they're licensed for. Besides, I've rarely seen a bar or late-night fast food joint that didn't have a flyer with the phone number of a cab company posted up somewhere prominent.

[Broomstick]

I don't think it's app replacing street hail as an app for when there's no taxi at hand. Hailing a taxi from the sidewalk is pretty damn convenient and quick (unless you have "disqualifying" traits, like in some places dark skin, you're disabled, etc.). An app does have an advantage over calling up a taxi company (do you even have a local phone number for that if you're in a strange city?) and going through dispatch.

Am I the only person here who has almost never managed to hail a taxi on the street, except one time when they happened to be dropping off a fare right in front of me? I'm not sure if this is peculiar to the UK, an urban/rural thing or just because I don't take cabs very often.

There is a bit of an art to hailing a cab so if you don't do it often you may be hesitant enough that it isn't clear you want the cab. Also, there are some factors that make you more likely to get a cab than otherwise, some of which are explicitly not fair - if you wear more expensive clothes you're more likely to get a cab easily, in the US being white makes getting a cab easier, the disabled are less likely to be picked up (even if that discrimination is illegal), and so on. I don't know if you belong to a disadvantaged category or not.

Besides, I've rarely seen a bar or late-night fast food joint that didn't have a flyer with the phone number of a cab company posted up somewhere prominent.

Well... not too helpful if you don't spend much time in bars or late-night fast-food joints. Yes, cab number flyers are a feature of the urban landscape, they do help.

[Zaune]

That's a good question. I'm white, but until I open my mouth (I have an accent so middle-class that I'm pretty sure it's got me out of being arrested at least twice) it's fairly easy to mistake me for a hobo, a serial killer or an Alan Moore cosplayer.

[Alferd Packer]

So most of the people who benefit from Uber competition are mostly the users AND the drivers, while the losers are venture capitalists and investors who think they can somehow make sufficient profits from such a system. Uber is bleeding cash all around the world, the only reason they can sustain is that they have an army of investors throwing cash at them. Uber itself isn't making as much profit as investors are expecting.

I don't see companies like Uber lasting out in the long run. It's not a business that is sustainable in the long run because an improved Taxi industry could easily take them down in the long run. Uber is exploiting the current weakness and problems within the Taxi industry ( poor tech/innovation, services, cost). It's only a matter of time before investors realise Uber isn't as profitable as they think. Neither should Uber drivers believe that this is an industry that can somehow be turned into a long-term career.

Uber was never about creating a sustainable business in its current form, but rather being the first to deploy a fully automated, self-driving taxi fleet. Human drivers are a necessary intermediary, but are only there until the requisite technology is developed. Once it is, the phaseout of human Uber drivers will begin. That's why investors keep throwing money at Uber--they think they'll be first past the post, so to say, and are willing to endure short- to medium-term losses in hope of a massive future payoff. Whether or not that actually happens is anyone's guess, but they may wind up losing the race.

[ray245]

There are people desperate for work, who for whatever are having a problem finding a traditional job. In some cases there is a serious dysfunction but other instances might be linked to things like ageism, or having one's former profession rendered obsolete and no other significant skills to generate a decent income.

Which means they are probably the last people that should take up Uber-driving. Uber driving works for well-off people who already own a car and have a decent job, with the extra pay they are getting being effectively bonus.

Too many people equate any accent whatsoever with "language problem". There's also out-and-out prejudice at work - I've known people afraid to take taxis for fear of a [insert trait here] driver.

I've taken taxis off and on for 30+ years. I've had as many problems with people with American English not being able to find their way out of a room with a prominent EXIT sign as problems with foreign language speakers, but overall I haven't had that many problems.

Well some improvements can certainly be made. I just find the idea that people choosing Uber drivers over Taxi drivers over language to be an odd problem in the US. Clearly, there are people that speak decent English ending up as desperate Uber drivers, and at the same time, there are people demanding better communication from Taxi drivers. Ideally, that means Taxi companies could recruit these people into Taxi companies.

I don't think it's app replacing street hail as an app for when there's no taxi at hand. Hailing a taxi from the sidewalk is pretty damn convenient and quick (unless you have "disqualifying" traits, like in some places dark skin, you're disabled, etc.). An app does have an advantage over calling up a taxi company (do you even have a local phone number for that if you're in a strange city?) and going through dispatch.

There's a slight change in habit among younger generations. They would rather wait inside a building and use an app to hail a cab ( there are such alternatives here), than to wait on the street to hail a cab.

Am I the only person here who has almost never managed to hail a taxi on the street, except one time when they happened to be dropping off a fare right in front of me? I'm not sure if this is peculiar to the UK, an urban/rural thing or just because I don't take cabs very often.

And apps have the disadvantage of being tied to a single cab company. Generally you want to use a local firm because they're more likely to have drivers waiting in the vicinity, and in a lot of jurisdictions they probably aren't supposed to take bookings that originate outside the area they're licensed for. Besides, I've rarely seen a bar or late-night fast food joint that didn't have a flyer with the phone number of a cab company posted up somewhere prominent.

You can have apps that work for multiple cab companies while retaining traditional hailing options for taxis. So those apps simply become a bonus tool for Taxis to improve service rather than destroying it.

Uber was never about creating a sustainable business in its current form, but rather being the first to deploy a fully automated, self-driving taxi fleet. Human drivers are a necessary intermediary, but are only there until the requisite technology is developed. Once it is, the phaseout of human Uber drivers will begin. That's why investors keep throwing money at Uber--they think they'll be first past the post, so to say, and are willing to endure short- to medium-term losses in hope of a massive future payoff. Whether or not that actually happens is anyone's guess, but they may wind up losing the race.

I don't necessarily see self-driving Taxi replacing humans in this regard. Communication with drivers is already a big deal for many users of Taxis and Uber, so I am highly skeptical those investors know what they are doing. What there is demand is for a better Taxi service that can take advantage of GPS and mobile phone technologies. Those are stuff worth investing in, not Uber.

[fordlltwm]

I don't think it's app replacing street hail as an app for when there's no taxi at hand. Hailing a taxi from the sidewalk is pretty damn convenient and quick (unless you have "disqualifying" traits, like in some places dark skin, you're disabled, etc.). An app does have an advantage over calling up a taxi company (do you even have a local phone number for that if you're in a strange city?) and going through dispatch.

Am I the only person here who has almost never managed to hail a taxi on the street, except one time when they happened to be dropping off a fare right in front of me? I'm not sure if this is peculiar to the UK, an urban/rural thing or just because I don't take cabs very often.

And apps have the disadvantage of being tied to a single cab company. Generally you want to use a local firm because they're more likely to have drivers waiting in the vicinity, and in a lot of jurisdictions they probably aren't supposed to take bookings that originate outside the area they're licensed for. Besides, I've rarely seen a bar or late-night fast food joint that didn't have a flyer with the phone number of a cab company posted up somewhere prominent.

A lot of cabs in more rural / small town areas will be on private hire plates / operating under private hire conditions so won't stop unless you're a designated pickup. Though in my experience if I'm driving my taxi it's because I'm going to somewhere to pick up or have already got people in my car. The number of people who wave their hands at taxi's that have blatantly got passengers in really does amaze me.

Here in deepest darkest wales my cab co's cards are in the bars / cafes / anywhere a tourist is likely to need one for about 10 / 20 miles around our base of operations. If you ask any reception desk they normally have a card for the nearest / cheapest cab company.

[Zaune]

Pretty much the same in deepest, darkest Mercia. I've even seen them on the classified ad billboards in corner shops. Although for the most part, if I need a cab but the taxi rank's deserted I walk to the offices of one of the minicab firms and go from there.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't necessarily trust the market's "answers" either. But the market does give an indication that people want some adjustment to be made. It's up to humans to decide what kind of improvement is needed to meet people's demand.

See, the thing is, that human decision process is called a 'policy debate.' To have it, you have to start by recognizing that it is not enough to just "let the market answer" a question.

This entails recognizing what aspects of the market's answer are unsatisfactory, and not objecting to that recognition with "but there's a problem that needs solving!"

We know that taxi service is a 'problem.' However, it wasn't exactly an urgent problem before 2010, and we've already acknowledged that a 'solution' is desirable. The market has generated one class of solution; the problem before us is to evaluate it on its merits, without just aborting the evaluation prematurely because "can't argue with free market!"

Suffice to say that this is not what is happening in the US, and the article is specifically about the US.

It seems like the market isn't even working in the US accordingly. If you have a system where Uber basically monopolise the "sharing car" economy with no competition whatsoever, it is going to be somewhat problematic for everyone other than the company involved. It's really not THAT difficult to set up a similar kind of app.

It's not a total monopoly, there are other services (like Lyft). The problem is that, as is often the case with market solutions where similar companies compete to provide the same service... they end up providing it more or less the same way.

Hence why McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's have more similarities than differences (at least where I live). Or why Coca-Cola and Pepsi are so similar that blind taste tests can't always tell them apart.

[Raw Shark]

Regarding Apps: The company I work with has had an app for longer than Uber has existed. Yes, you have to spend 30 seconds typing your address in instead of just mashing a button, but that results in a more accurate pick-up than GPS. I see fools desperately searching for their Uber driver all the time because the guy is parked a block away. When they do locate the guy, they tend to be so drunk and excited that they go blindly charging out right into traffic. I have nearly killed several of them.

Regarding Languages: I speak English better than most of my customers. Every taxi driver speaks English - the fucking Hack test is in English, for fuck's sake. Yes some drivers are rude, won't get off the phone, or will try to rip you off by pretending they don't know what you're saying, but they don't make a lot of tips.

Sidewalk Service: I'll pick up anybody I see, unless they're holding food, covered in vomit, literally on fire, or clearly can't fit all their shit in my car. Yes, this includes some larger wheelchairs, but it's an issue of impossibility, not prejudice. If I pass you by there's a damned good reason, such as being off duty, being on an assigned trip that I am contractually obligated to service (eg: blind people, the owner's two drunken kids), running on gas fumes, desperate to take a crap, etc. I had all of the above happen once each last night.

[FaxModem1]

So what happens to all of these people if/when Uber collapses or switches over to fully automated as they are planning to do so? Do they have marketable skills, and will be forced to find new employment? Or are they people who will starve due to Uber driver not looking that impressive on a resume, much to Raw Shark's delight?

Similar question, if this trend continues, will Uber driver shantytowns increase, or will something prevent this from happening? If so, what?

[Broomstick]

So what happens to all of these people if/when Uber collapses or switches over to fully automated as they are planning to do so?

The Uber drivers will be unemployed, of course.

Do they have marketable skills, and will be forced to find new employment?

Of course they will have to find new employment.

As to whether or not they have marketable skills - well, that depends on the individual and their personal experience. In a world where professional human drivers aren't needed you'll need some other skill. And a way to spin your Uber experience (i.e. "extensive experience dealing with the public, all types of people under all sorts of conditions" as an example).

Similar question, if this trend continues, will Uber driver shantytowns increase, or will something prevent this from happening? If so, what?

Well, yeah, of course the "shanty towns" will increase, unless a locality outlaws them, permitting local police to arrest these people impound their cars, thereby depriving them of both income and shelter at the same time. Or a local jurisdiction decides to actually put some effort into retraining people with job skills that are actually in demand.

[Raw Shark]

So what happens to all of these people if/when Uber collapses or switches over to fully automated as they are planning to do so? Do they have marketable skills, and will be forced to find new employment? Or are they people who will starve due to Uber driver not looking that impressive on a resume, much to Raw Shark's delight?

Hey, now. I don't want them to starve, I just want them to play by the same rules that I have to or find a different job. I admit to a moment of schadenfreude after yet another long night of watching those pissants drink my milkshake, but I'm not delighted at their suffering, I'm delighted that living in their cars will make them want to push off my turf.

Similar question, if this trend continues, will Uber driver shantytowns increase, or will something prevent this from happening? If so, what?

We already have a shantytown for completely hopeless people who can't even cooperate, and one for hipsters / punks / street performers, so I don't see why not. If I was them, I'd be trying to organize some kind of squatters' collective, like the Invisible Businessmen. They took over an abandoned warehouse years ago, and chip in communally. If they have to clear out, they can pack up and ghost in less than 24 hours. It's not glamorous, but it's a roof and some kind of alliance for practically free.