BREAKING: Airbus A320 crashes in Alps

[Borgholio]

Looks like the co-pilot had an illness that he concealed from his coworkers and the company. The doctor ordered him to go on medical leave but he chose to work and fly the plane instead. They're not saying what kind of illness it was though, but naturally everybody is jumping to the mental illness conclusion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /70530292/

[The Romulan Republic]

Or perhaps not mental illness but depression/despair over the illness and it interfering with his job drove him to commit suicide in this way?

[Ziggy Stardust]

The recording tells us no such thing. All it tells us is that they only started screaming load enough to be heard through the cockpit door just before impact. I am sure plenty of people noticed the alps reaching up for them when they shouldn't have been there long before that.

I've seen mixed reporting on this. Some news stories seem to imply the screaming was heard only in the instants just before impact, although another news story said that screaming could be heard "several minutes" before impact.

I'm sure this information is out there, but I'm having a hard time pruning through all the bullshit to find it: but what was the local time for the crash and what were the weather conditions?

EDIT:

Several sources are now reporting that the co-pilot had a medical condition. His house was searched and they found a torn-up note to his employer as well as a doctor's note excusing him from work that day. Still light on details (I'm impressed at the restraint the European authorities are showing here compared to how Americans usually treat these types of things).

NYTimes

Documents show that Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot who is believed to have deliberately crashed a Germanwings jet into the French Alps on Tuesday, had a medical condition that he hid from his employer, prosecutors here said on Friday.

Prosecutors said that among the items found at Mr. Lubitz’s home was a doctor’s note excusing him from work on the day of the crash, and another note that had been torn up. These documents “support the preliminary assessment that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and colleagues,” the prosecutors said in a statement.

The German investigators said they had not found a suicide note or “any indication of a political or religious” nature among the documents from Mr. Lubitz’s apartment. “However, documents were secured containing medical information that indicates an illness and corresponding treatment by doctors,” Ralf Herrenbrück, a spokesman for prosecutors in Düsseldorf, said in a statement.

The Federal Aviation Office of Germany said on Friday that a medical certificate issued to Mr. Lubitz that allowed him to fly noted that he had a medical condition, although it did not specify whether it was related to a psychological issue.

[CaptHawkeye]

He reports a mental illness to his employer and he was getting fired "furloughed". Their is no course of action available to a pilot reporting a serious illness, much less a mental illness in this industry. If you're sick you're out. Too fucking bad. Good luck paying down all those loans you took out to go Private > Commercial > CFI etc etc now.

[Flagg]

How exactly is an 8 minute plunge from 38,000ft even near instantaneous?

The impact is.

So is jumping off a 10 story building, driving your car at 100mph+ into a tree with no seatbelt on, or the good old fashioned bullet to the head. Or hell, renting a small plane and crashing THAT into the alps. There are plenty of ways to instantaneously off yourself, but without taking almost 150 others with you. I honestly just do not understand the mindset of this fucker and I'm pretty good at figuring this shit out. But I'm also not going to speculate on why he did it because although I have a couple of possible reasons for him wanting to commit suicide, I have no reasons why he'd want to commit murder-suicide barring some factor we are unaware of with someone else on that plane. What that could be, I don't know, and as I've said, I'm not going to speculate.

[Ziggy Stardust]

He reports a mental illness to his employer and he was getting fired "furloughed". Their is no course of action available to a pilot reporting a serious illness, much less a mental illness in this industry. If you're sick you're out. Too fucking bad. Good luck paying down all those loans you took out to go Private > Commercial > CFI etc etc now.

Where are you finding reports of it being a mental illness? All of the news reports I have seen merely specify an "illness", without implying that it was necessarily psychological.

[Zaune]

Well I sincerely doubt he went postal over a hernia or something.

[Borgholio]

Well I sincerely doubt he went postal over a hernia or something.

And being ordered off work for a day or two wouldn't make a lick of difference if he was just diagnosed with AIDS or something.

[Channel72]

Here's an idea: how about we stop trying to come up with solutions for a "problem" that is basically a once-in-a-century, random, unpredictable, never-going-to-happen-again system failure? And by "system failure" I mean the entire "system" (from psychological screenings, background checks, training, inspections, technological protocols and failsafes, etc.) failed to account for a totally unpredictable edge-case scenario. We may as well try to compensate for the edge-case where it turns out the pilot has a 1-in-a-billion physiological disorder that causes him to turn into a werewolf on his 50th birthday.

Sometimes random tragedies happen, and there's no sense in trying to apply more bandaids. It's not likely this sort of scenario will ever happen again in our lifetimes.

Terrorist/hijacker-proof doors, on the other hand, actually do address a much more likely scenario.

[TimothyC]

Sometimes random tragedies happen, and there's no sense in trying to apply more bandaids. It's not likely this sort of scenario will ever happen again in our lifetimes.

Terrorist/hijacker-proof doors, on the other hand, actually do address a much more likely scenario.

This isn't the first time we've seen a pilot bring down a plane by locking the other guy out of the cockpit - LAM-470 did the same thing back in late 2013. In early 2014 Ethiopian 702 nearly ran out of fuel while a pilot was trying to defect. Before 9/11 there were also the Egypt Air 990 and Silkair 185. The cases where a pilot/co-pilot commits barratry are rare, but not so rare as you seem to imply.

Meanwhile almost every single attempted hijacking that has not involved the crew in the last decade has been stopped - by the passengers and crew working together.

[Beowulf]

He reports a mental illness to his employer and he was getting fired "furloughed". Their is no course of action available to a pilot reporting a serious illness, much less a mental illness in this industry. If you're sick you're out. Too fucking bad. Good luck paying down all those loans you took out to go Private > Commercial > CFI etc etc now.

The state of law makes it impossible to not get furloughed for mental illness though. If an airline didn't do that, and the pilot decided to commit murder/suicide, then they're going to be considered negligent for not taking due care to remove a suicidal pilot from flight status.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Here's an idea: how about we stop trying to come up with solutions for a "problem" that is basically a once-in-a-century, random, unpredictable, never-going-to-happen-again system failure? And by "system failure" I mean the entire "system" (from psychological screenings, background checks, training, inspections, technological protocols and failsafes, etc.) failed to account for a totally unpredictable edge-case scenario. We may as well try to compensate for the edge-case where it turns out the pilot has a 1-in-a-billion physiological disorder that causes him to turn into a werewolf on his 50th birthday.

Sometimes random tragedies happen, and there's no sense in trying to apply more bandaids. It's not likely this sort of scenario will ever happen again in our lifetimes.

Terrorist/hijacker-proof doors, on the other hand, actually do address a much more likely scenario.

MH370 may have also been caused by this.

If this problem is causing 50% of all aviation related deaths, which for a recent time-average it may actually be doing, then it actually becomes by far the biggest thing preventable occurrence of fatalities in aviation.

Anyway, a two person cockpit rule goes a considerable way to mitigating it. The second person only needs to fend someone off long enough to open the door, not defeat the lunatic by themselves. Personally though I would prefer we return to three-crew operation and provide a bank of cameras for the person in the jumpseat, as there's been plenty of accidents where a two-person crew has misinterpreted data and for example messed up which engine is on fire and turned off the working one. Having someone whose job, like a security guard, is to just sit in the jump-seat looking at external and perhaps internal cameras, and respond to emergencies detached from the controls, might be very useful. In lieu of this, sorry, expect the America practice of having the flight attendant sit in the cockpit while one of the pilots goes to the loo and the aisle is blocked by a sandwich cart to now become the norm in Europe and the world too.

[Broomstick]

He reports a mental illness to his employer and he was getting fired "furloughed". Their is no course of action available to a pilot reporting a serious illness, much less a mental illness in this industry. If you're sick you're out. Too fucking bad.

While psychology is probably a factor we can't be sure that was the actual trigger. He may have come down with some sort of physical illness that would end his flight career and responded with denial then suicide. If he had some sort of cancer, deteriorating vision, a neurological problem, heart disease... all sorts of things can end your flying career and he might have had little or no other job skills or experience to fall back on.

Even for private pilots being permanently grounded can be psychologically devastating, for commercial and professional pilots even more so. Add in some tendencies towards depression....

[There are plenty of ways to instantaneously off yourself, but without taking almost 150 others with you. I honestly just do not understand the mindset of this fucker and I'm pretty good at figuring this shit out.

Depression is just about sadness and despair, there can also be a component of anger involved. Anger can make you want to hurt other people.

Well I sincerely doubt he went postal over a hernia or something.

If a hernia means you lose not just your present job but your entire career yeah, someone might go postal over that.

[CaptHawkeye]

He reports a mental illness to his employer and he was getting fired "furloughed". Their is no course of action available to a pilot reporting a serious illness, much less a mental illness in this industry. If you're sick you're out. Too fucking bad. Good luck paying down all those loans you took out to go Private > Commercial > CFI etc etc now.

The state of law makes it impossible to not get furloughed for mental illness though. If an airline didn't do that, and the pilot decided to commit murder/suicide, then they're going to be considered negligent for not taking due care to remove a suicidal pilot from flight status.

Pilots are not too interested in reporting illnesses and seeking treatment when doing so is likely to cost them their job. Their is no job security or protection in aviation. The pilot unions are worthless, and General Aviation presents no options to make a living off of either. It's ridiculous really. Everyone thinks pilot is a job up there with lawyers and doctors and in reality it's pretty much comparable to supermarket work.

Even for private pilots being permanently grounded can be psychologically devastating, for commercial and professional pilots even more so. Add in some tendencies towards depression....

Bingo. You either make it to the top of the airlines or fail. Their is no safety net, but plenty that can go wrong between start and finish that makes the huge investment you made in vain.

[Grumman]

Terrorist/hijacker-proof doors, on the other hand, actually do address a much more likely scenario.

A terrorist-proof door doesn't need to be a pilot-proof door. Even if the other flight crew have a code to get through the door and you want the ability to lock them out, they don't have to have the same code as the pilots. Have two tiers of entry code: one for the pilot and co-pilot that cannot be overridden, and one for the rest of the crew that can.

[Enigma]

Grumman, in that case, the pilot can never leave the cockpit. If he did, then he'll present himself as a target for any potential hijacker. With the pilot's code, the hijacker can enter the cockpit and take over the plane.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Grumman, in that case, the pilot can never leave the cockpit. If he did, then he'll present himself as a target for any potential hijacker. With the pilot's code, the hijacker can enter the cockpit and take over the plane.

Because the hijackers facing 100 people punching and hitting them in a closely confined space are totally going to have the time to tie the pilot up and beat him with seatbelts to the balls until he gives them the code... yeeaaah... no, this just isn't a serious concern.

[Broomstick]

I think the biggest flaw in a lot of the "reasoning" I see after this deliberate* is the notion that we can somehow make the world safe. We can't. We are completely incapable of ensuring a completely safe existence for anyone. Sorry about that. Take a deep breath and carry on.




* I can't call it an accident since slamming into the mountain seems to have been an intentional act

[salm]

And the conservatives who want to use this incidnent to chip away at doctor-patient confidentiality are crawling out of the wood work.

Man, the way this story is getting blown completely out of proportion has annoyed me since day one but we´ve crossed a line where it is beyond absurd. Why cant they just stop reporting about this bullshit? There are more important things than a fucking plane crash.

[Grumman]

Grumman, in that case, the pilot can never leave the cockpit. If he did, then he'll present himself as a target for any potential hijacker. With the pilot's code, the hijacker can enter the cockpit and take over the plane.

How does the hijacker get the pilot's code?

Even if he did get the code, the override that allowed the co-pilot to lock the pilot out while he murdered 149 people is worthless if you don't have advance warning that you need it. Unless the pilot or the co-pilot is actively working to destroy the plane and they have allies outside of the cockpit who would help them seize control, the ability to lock the pilot or co-pilot out of the cockpit is worse than useless.

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Chicago Tribune has a summary of the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder. Pretty heart-wrenching. Sounds like the passengers had a full 8 minutes to just stare helplessly out the windows at the approaching mountains.

They are also reporting that the copilot had previously been treated for "suicidal tendencies".

[Broomstick]

Your link requires a person to sign up before viewing. That is very annoying.

Anyhow, here's what we seem to know at this point:

- The pilot in question was treated for "suicidal tendencies" in the past.
- He was apparently suffering some sort of vision issue, which may or may not have been psychosomatic. This point is unclear.
- After wanting to fly for most of his life, he was facing the prospect of being permanently grounded.
- He apparently had no other job skills

I could see vision or mental problem potentially leading to permanent grounding leading to a pilot committing suicide. It's not unprecedented. However, that usually shakes out with the pilot committing suicide via more conventional means such as pills, rope, or gun. When pilots do off themselves in airplanes, even airline captains, the more typical scenario is the solo use of a small airplane to do himself in. What is very rare is a pilot taking others with him. Not unprecedented, but unusual even for a suicidal pilot.

And, apparently, at least some of the passengers were, indeed, aware there was a Very Big Problem, but that was due to the actions of the captain trying to get back into the cockpit.

While I am normally a very big advocate of medical privacy if you're talking about someone responsible for the lives of hundreds of other people that privacy can not be absolute. In matters of public safety there must be some compromise.

Heck, even as a private pilot I had to sign a waiver allowing the FAA access to any and all of my medical records that might affect my ability to fly safely. Normally, the FAA does not exercise that option but it certainly can. When there is an accident that might be medically related they certainly do. Psychiatrists and psychologists are obligated to report if someone is an immediate danger to themselves or others.

That said - I also support recent changes to the rules that allow people with mental issues to seek treatment without receiving an automatic, permanent flight ban. There are rules and obligations surrounding treatment, but I'd rather have someone with problems treated and monitored while flying than the old system were people hid their problems, went untreated, and tried to tough it out. Not everyone who seeks treatment is going to have their wings restored, some people should be grounded, but "mental illness" isn't the same as "dangerous". There are few enough pilots affected by this that we can evaluate them on a case-by-base basis.

[Thanas]

Meh. When the copilot was getting commended by the FAA himself and fulfilled every certification demanded by the FAA then there is nothing to be done.

[Napoleon the Clown]

It really doesn't take anything unusual to reduce the odds of something like this happening. We don't need to complicate matters by adding thirteen different new codes to access the cockpit, training everyone on the crew in Krav Maga, and arming them with guns. That shit is excessive and wouldn't make things better.


Never have fewer than two people in the cockpit. Do not have an impassible lock for the cockpit door. As has been pointed out, hijackings have been stopped by the passengers dogpiling anybody that tries to be a problem. If you absolutely must have some sort of lock on the door, a basic key would work. Exotic procedures and gadgets aren't the solution to a problem that can be mitigated relatively effectively by making it so that the crew can access the cockpit readily.

[salm]

Never have fewer than two people in the cockpit.

If you don´t monitor this rigorously it will be routinely ignored.
I don´t know if it is difficult or expensive to do so.