Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Simon_Jester »

As the Russians are now illustrating, this approach has limitations, especially if you happen to be Poland.

"We don't make power projection a priority" is all very well until you find yourself totally unable to stop the Islamic State from carving out a fiefdom on the borders of a NATO member state. Or unable to stop one ethnic minority from slaughtering another in the Balkans.

"We don't have money to spare on maintenance" is all very well until you're worried about some random faction in a Pakistani civil war doing something daft with a medium range ballistic missile and it's your antimissile batteries that don't work for lack of spare parts and trained operators.

"We don't consider weapons development a priority" is all very well until you're trying to figure out how to counter Russian arms supplied to a hostile movement in a nearby country... and you couldn't respond by arming your friends in the same country even if you wanted to, because you have no weapons that would help them fight back effectively.

At some point, you really DO need to find some way to shake loose a little more money for your military, unless of course you have resigned yourself to being defeated by anyone and everyone out there who is prepared to use force.

I am reminded of Natural Theology, by Rudyard Kipling:
Kipling wrote: Primitive


I ate my fill of a whale that died
And stranded after a month at sea. . . .
There is a pain in my inside.
Why have the Gods afflicted me?
Ow! I am purged till I am a wraith!
Wow! I am sick till I cannot see!
What is the sense of Religion and Faith :
Look how the Gods have afflicted me!


Pagan

How can the skin of rat or mouse hold
Anything more than a harmless flea?. . .
The burning plague has taken my household.
Why have my Gods afflicted me?
All my kith and kin are deceased,
Though they were as good as good could be,
I will out and batter the family priest,
Because my Gods have afflicted me!


Medi/Eval

My privy and well drain into each other
After the custom of Christendie. . . .
Fevers and fluxes are wasting my mother.
Why has the Lord afflicted me?
The Saints are helpless for all I offer--
So are the clergy I used to fee.
Henceforward I keep my cash in my coffer,
Because the Lord has afflicted me.


Material

I run eight hundred hens to the acre
They die by dozens mysteriously. . . .
I am more than doubtful concerning my Maker,
Why has the Lord afflicted me?
What a return for all my endeavour--
Not to mention the L. S. D!
I am an atheist now and for ever,
Because this God has afflicted me!


Progressive

Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me.


Chorus

We had a kettle: we let it leak:
Our not repairing it made it worse.
We haven't had any tea for a week. . .
The bottom is out of the Universe!


Conclusion

This was none of the good Lord's pleasure,
For the Spirit He breathed in Man is free;
But what comes after is measure for measure,
And not a God that afflicteth thee.
As was the sowing so the reaping
Is now and evermore shall be.
Thou art delivered to thine own keeping.
Only Thyself hath afflicted thee!
One might also profitably reference the same author's poem Dane-Geld:
Kipling wrote:It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Simon_Jester wrote:As the Russians are now illustrating, this approach has limitations, especially if you happen to be Poland.

"We don't make power projection a priority" is all very well until you find yourself totally unable to stop the Islamic State from carving out a fiefdom on the borders of a NATO member state. Or unable to stop one ethnic minority from slaughtering another in the Balkans.

"We don't have money to spare on maintenance" is all very well until you're worried about some random faction in a Pakistani civil war doing something daft with a medium range ballistic missile and it's your antimissile batteries that don't work for lack of spare parts and trained operators.

"We don't consider weapons development a priority" is all very well until you're trying to figure out how to counter Russian arms supplied to a hostile movement in a nearby country... and you couldn't respond by arming your friends in the same country even if you wanted to, because you have no weapons that would help them fight back effectively.

At some point, you really DO need to find some way to shake loose a little more money for your military, unless of course you have resigned yourself to being defeated by anyone and everyone out there who is prepared to use force.

I am reminded of Natural Theology, by Rudyard Kipling:
You are utterly dodging the question. Where do you suggest they get the money to fund what you suggest? The United States is well possibly the only country in the world that extensively lives on credit. Other countries do not have the luxury.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Simon_Jester »

In that case it comes down to the classic "guns versus butter" debate.

The German government spends, what, roughly 40% of the German GDP every year? I think it's more than that, but let's be generous and suppose it's only 40%.

For every 1.3 euros they spend on the military they're spending 38.7 euros on other things. All they have to do is alter that balance to 38.0 euros on other things and 2.0 euros on the military, and a lot of their problems go away. Shift it to 37.0 euros on other things and 3.0 euros on the military and they turn into a military powerhouse by European standards.

Would that 4% reduction in civilian spending have some adverse effect on someone, somewhere? Yes. But this is not an either/or proposition; the Germans do not have to obliterate their social safety net in order to finance a functioning military.

For the Poles the breakdown is a little different- their federal budget is again over 40% of their GDP and their military spending is up at around 1.8% of GDP.

If these nations wanted to double military funding, they could. It would involve budget cuts, but the cuts would not result in the collapse of the nation as a whole, even if they were done without raising any taxes or borrowing a single euro.

Now, you can protest that this is dodging the question, that the reality is that spending more than 1.3% of GDP on the military is politically impossible in Germany. Assume for the sake of argument that's true...

In which case I can only conclude that either:
1) The German electorate wants Germany to be unable to win wars, or
2) The German electorate is very stupid.

In case (1), well, it looks like the Germans are getting what they want: a nation that cannot win a war, unless someone else wins it for them. In case (2), I am not bound to show any respect for the German people if the German people are stupid.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by LaCroix »

Simon_Jester wrote: In which case I can only conclude that either:
1) The German electorate wants Germany to be unable to win wars, or
2) The German electorate is very stupid.
How about the unfathomable option 3) - The Germans think Social security and other things are much more important than the military, and are only willing to spend the absolute necessary on military, lest other things might suffer.

The actively "Wanting to be unable to win a war" does not even come into the equation as, like most European countries, Germany isn't particularily interested in taking part in one. And right now, they have other things that needs their financial attention.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by mr friendly guy »

The need to "win a war" when you have no intention of getting involved in one, surely only applies in a case where you're likely to be invaded or attacked. How likely is any great power going to attack Germany unless Germany attacked first. Which is unlikely if the Germans have no intention of getting into one.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

LaCroix wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote: In which case I can only conclude that either:
1) The German electorate wants Germany to be unable to win wars, or
2) The German electorate is very stupid.
How about the unfathomable option 3) - The Germans think Social security and other things are much more important than the military, and are only willing to spend the absolute necessary on military, lest other things might suffer.

The actively "Wanting to be unable to win a war" does not even come into the equation as, like most European countries, Germany isn't particularily interested in taking part in one. And right now, they have other things that needs their financial attention.

Look at it like this. If the intention of the germans is to not involve themselves in any military conflicts, that is all well and good. I am not here to comment at all on that one way or the other. But if that is the intention, they ought not go and make military commitments in places like Afghanistan, or try to keep up with the weapons development and procurement of other nations.

If they spend in a manner congruent with not having the intention of getting into military conflicts, but then make military commitments or try to keep up with their neighbors in terms of equipment, it is bad for everyone. They end up endangering the lives of their own soldiers needlessly, and endangering the lives and operational goals of coalition partners to boot (and no, I am not here to comment on the nature of those operational goals either). It is not the sort of thing they can have both ways. But right now, they are trying to have it both ways.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Simon_Jester »

LaCroix wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote: In which case I can only conclude that either:
1) The German electorate wants Germany to be unable to win wars, or
2) The German electorate is very stupid.
How about the unfathomable option 3) - The Germans think Social security and other things are much more important than the military, and are only willing to spend the absolute necessary on military, lest other things might suffer.
The practical problem is that they are not spending the absolute (minimum?) necessary on the military, and have not for some time, unless "the absolute necessary" means "underspend so badly that we can't fight effectually without someone better-funded coming in to bail us out."

So if the German electorate wants to spend the minimum necessary on the military for some reasonable definition of necessary... somehow they've spent years methodically encouraging their politicians to do the opposite of what they want.

Which maps back to "the Germans are stupid."

Alternatively, the German electorate thinks the money they are spending on their military is the minimum necessary to ensure the security of Germany... despite the fact that their military cannot do basic things it might reasonably be called on to do with the approval of the German people. Like prevent random Balkan groups from slaughtering each other. Or shoot down short-range ballistic missiles reliably. Or launch airstrikes at a meaningful tempo of operations.

In which case the Germans are deluding themselves about what is "necessary" to accomplish things they think it desirable to accomplish, which de facto maps back, again, to "the Germans are stupid."

Honestly, I would prefer to think that the Germans have cynically calculated that they can rely on better-funded militaries to bail them out of any really threatening crisis while keeping up an overall foreign policy of self-righteous nosiness: to speak loudly and carry a small stick. That, at least, would indicate that the Germans are making a decision that is rational in the short term, even if I think it's incredibly short-sighted and amoral in the long term.
The actively "Wanting to be unable to win a war" does not even come into the equation as, like most European countries, Germany isn't particularily interested in taking part in one. And right now, they have other things that needs their financial attention.
So since fighting wars is undesirable, being able to win wars is not necessary.

Again, the problem is that if the Germans are not stupid, then they really ought to be able to recognize that this leaves their country rather helpless in the face of any group that is willing to resort to armed force on a large scale.

If they don't care about that, then that maps back to (1): the Germans deciding they don't need to be able to win wars. Or at least, deciding their need to be able to win a war is not worth, oh, a three or four percent cut in civilian government spending.

If they do care about being helpless in the face of armed force, but decide to underfund their military that badly anyway... we're back to (2): the Germans being stupid.

I'd rather stick with (1), as I said.

I don't understand why it's so unpleasant to just come out and say that there are countries which have decided that the ability to win wars is not important, and which have decided not to bother funding a military capable of winning them independently. Perhaps we are afraid to say it because it smacks of cowardice... but I think it's a reality.

That is the world we live in; there are nations which have basically committed to that stance where they "puff and look important and... say "we really ought to beat you but we have not time to meet you..." "

I can comprehend the motives of people who do this. But unless those people are too stupid to plan for their own future, I have to assume they are aware of the likely consequences of their actions.
mr friendly guy wrote:The need to "win a war" when you have no intention of getting involved in one, surely only applies in a case where you're likely to be invaded or attacked. How likely is any great power going to attack Germany unless Germany attacked first. Which is unlikely if the Germans have no intention of getting into one.
A country Germany promised to help defend might get attacked. If the Germans have decided they don't need to help defend their neighbors, why should their neighbors help defend them? Germany's entire strategic position falls apart if it loses the "mutual defense" aspect of NATO... and yet Germany is not keeping up armed forces capable of "mutually defending" anything. At some point, people are going to want to kick them out of the band, seeing as how they never practice and don't maintain their instruments.

Or some helpless group of innocents might get attacked and Germany might want to do something about it. I always thought that trying to prevent massive human rights abuses and slaughters was important to the post-war German national ethos... right? Because if their response to, say, genocide in the Balkans is "yawn, maybe we can afford to send a thousand troops, but they can't drive around too much because we don't have the budget to sustain combat operations..." well, they're not taking that commitment seriously.

Or some new, hostile power block (like the Islamic State, otherwise known as ISIL or ISIS) might be trying to carve out a sphere of influence quite close to nations that Germany has friendly relations with (like Turkey). Germany might want a say in that. Without the ability to resist armed force, they won't get much of a say.

As Germany itself taught many countries three generations ago, saying "I am not interested in war" does not mean war won't take an interest in you. And being incapable of fighting a war at an opportune moment can result in much worse things happening later on. And those things happen after one has been forced to make humiliating concessions in order to buy the time to prepare that one should sensibly have bought earlier by planning ahead.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Simon_Jester wrote: A country Germany promised to help defend might get attacked. If the Germans have decided they don't need to help defend their neighbors, why should their neighbors help defend them? Germany's entire strategic position falls apart if it loses the "mutual defense" aspect of NATO... and yet Germany is not keeping up armed forces capable of "mutually defending" anything. At some point, people are going to want to kick them out of the band, seeing as how they never practice and don't maintain their instruments.

Or some helpless group of innocents might get attacked and Germany might want to do something about it. I always thought that trying to prevent massive human rights abuses and slaughters was important to the post-war German national ethos... right? Because if their response to, say, genocide in the Balkans is "yawn, maybe we can afford to send a thousand troops, but they can't drive around too much because we don't have the budget to sustain combat operations..." well, they're not taking that commitment seriously.

Or some new, hostile power block (like the Islamic State, otherwise known as ISIL or ISIS) might be trying to carve out a sphere of influence quite close to nations that Germany has friendly relations with (like Turkey). Germany might want a say in that. Without the ability to resist armed force, they won't get much of a say.

As Germany itself taught many countries three generations ago, saying "I am not interested in war" does not mean war won't take an interest in you. And being incapable of fighting a war at an opportune moment can result in much worse things happening later on. And those things happen after one has been forced to make humiliating concessions in order to buy the time to prepare that one should sensibly have bought earlier by planning ahead.
I agree with the thrust of your argument with one caveat. Germany may see other roles for its military or contributes to resolving geopolitical disputes other than purely with military force. For example

a. Peacekeeping - a country could expect its military to focus on the peacekeeping while someone else does the actual fighting. This can work for the country doing the fighting its not just winning the war, its keeping the peace to achieve a particular geopolitical goal. Thus the costs are spread. An example is when Clinton wanted Europeans to contribute to peacekeeping after the war with Yugoslavia because America did the main fighting.

b. Be an adjunct to a more potent military - I don't think Canada or New Zealand is going to win a war by itself in some far away land. They will require the power projection capability of another nation eg US. If Germany wants to do this, so be it. Just be mindful of the costs that you'll be heavily reliant on a nation that has the power projection capability.

c. Rebuilding - Again as with point a, its not just winning the war, you need to rebuild the damage area to achieve geopolitical goals, otherwise resentment builds and the whole thing starts over again. An economically powerful country like Germany might be in a better position to fund the rebuilding than say, a lower GDP country but with large military budget like Turkey.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Simon_Jester wrote:The practical problem is that they are not spending the absolute (minimum?) necessary on the military, and have not for some time, unless "the absolute necessary" means "underspend so badly that we can't fight effectually without someone better-funded coming in to bail us out."
That kinda depends on what you are fighting. Please keep in mind that more money would not fix the largest problems that exist right now, because these are a problem of weapon programmes not ending up in versions that were promised. Which is largely not a problem of money but:
- in case of the subs and corvettes, the yard was caught trying to get higher profits by using cheap replacements instead of materials they promised to deliver
- in case of the planes, Airbus has not managed to do what it was contracted to do. The price has also been raised several times, indicating money is not that large of an issue here - if anything, the willingness to shovel so much money at Airbus in the first place was the cause of this mess.

In case of general equipment, you would know from the article itself that the forces were not required to be armed at all during that exercise, but some guys got creative and painted their broomsticks to make it look like that. Well, good for them.

In any case, do you know where our excess weaponry just went? That's right, into Kurdistan to support the fight against ISIS. So it takes time to replace them.
Alternatively, the German electorate thinks the money they are spending on their military is the minimum necessary to ensure the security of Germany... despite the fact that their military cannot do basic things it might reasonably be called on to do with the approval of the German people. Like prevent random Balkan groups from slaughtering each other.
Yeah, you do know that we manage to do that just fine currently and are by far the largest contributing force to that? Our deployment in Kosovo has been going on for over a decade and our contribution there is still five times larger than that of France. In fact, even at the height of Kosovo, we put over 8k forces in there, which was larger than any other contingent save that of the US and the UK.
Or shoot down short-range ballistic missiles reliably. Or launch airstrikes at a meaningful tempo of operations.
That is true.
In which case the Germans are deluding themselves about what is "necessary" to accomplish things they think it desirable to accomplish, which de facto maps back, again, to "the Germans are stupid."

Honestly, I would prefer to think that the Germans have cynically calculated that they can rely on better-funded militaries to bail them out of any really threatening crisis while keeping up an overall foreign policy of self-righteous nosiness: to speak loudly and carry a small stick. That, at least, would indicate that the Germans are making a decision that is rational in the short term, even if I think it's incredibly short-sighted and amoral in the long term.
Speak loudly? Where the heck is Germany speaking loudly?
So since fighting wars is undesirable, being able to win wars is not necessary.

Again, the problem is that if the Germans are not stupid, then they really ought to be able to recognize that this leaves their country rather helpless in the face of any group that is willing to resort to armed force on a large scale.
Like who?
A country Germany promised to help defend might get attacked. If the Germans have decided they don't need to help defend their neighbors, why should their neighbors help defend them?
Well, like who is going to get attacked by whom?
Germany's entire strategic position falls apart if it loses the "mutual defense" aspect of NATO... and yet Germany is not keeping up armed forces capable of "mutually defending" anything. At some point, people are going to want to kick them out of the band, seeing as how they never practice and don't maintain their instruments.
As long as other nations are quite willing to have Germany pay for their deployments or require arms shipments from Germany then I don't see that happening.
Or some helpless group of innocents might get attacked and Germany might want to do something about it. I always thought that trying to prevent massive human rights abuses and slaughters was important to the post-war German national ethos... right? Because if their response to, say, genocide in the Balkans is "yawn, maybe we can afford to send a thousand troops, but they can't drive around too much because we don't have the budget to sustain combat operations..." well, they're not taking that commitment seriously.
We take the Balkans very seriously. We contributed enormously in both financial and logistical matters and we also paid for a good chunk. And right now we are only 10 soldiers behind the US commitment to there. So I don't know what tale you are spinning here.
Or some new, hostile power block (like the Islamic State, otherwise known as ISIL or ISIS) might be trying to carve out a sphere of influence quite close to nations that Germany has friendly relations with (like Turkey). Germany might want a say in that.
You mean, like the Turks, who were quite content to watch and let the Kurds get slaughtered while ISIS fighers got treated in Turkish hospitals?
We are also shipping a lot of weapons to the Kurds.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Thanas »

Getting away from the single issues, what programs do people here think Germany should conceivably undertake?

Even more importantly, given the clear mandate and constitutional law that demands a balanced budget, what other programs should be cut?
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Simon_Jester wrote:They used to be a speed-bump meant to force Soviet T-72s to slow down and use their hazard flashers on the way across West Germany. But like all inadequately maintained street features, they were worn away by erosion and pfenning-pinching stupidity.
Flagg wrote: Understood, and acknowledged. I figured it was a good opportunity to extend the joke.

After all, if, out of said pfennig-pinching stupidity, the German people lack the willingness to do what it takes to maintain modern weapons, maybe they would be happier with more primitive weapons. The results would be disastrous if they ever actually had to use their weapons, but that would have happened anyway.

And there's always the "belligerent pushy arrogant forty-five-kilo weakling" approach to international diplomacy to fall back on as an alternative. Because that works out so very well!
The current situation with the equipment does have some history.
First, Germans are in majority pacifists today or at least oppose war and military engagements in foreign countries. This makes raising the budget quite difficult. Especially since there had been a lot of budget cuts in the late 90s and early 2000s. It is difficult to explain why retirements are cut, streets and schools are left to rot while new tanks are bought. At least it is difficult in Germany. And that is a good. thing.
Second, the Germany hadn't been in war for several decades. This meant the armed forces were used as kind of local investment program for the economy and weak communities. This also meant the bureaucracy had no way to "measure" its effectiveness and started to become quite inflexible and focused on doing routines that had no real purpose. Some parts of the armed forces still
This however meant that when the Germany joined the Afghanistan war the officer corps only had this war as only point of reference. The German forces now increasingly focuses on such kinds of conflicts and makes them the basis for more and more strategies and training. Not because this is the biggest danger, but because that is their only expertise. Countries like the US; UK, France or Russia have the advantage of fighting wars every few years and this having a wide array of experiences.
There is an interesting link about this "Afghanistan-connection", but only in German.
Simon_Jester wrote:As the Russians are now illustrating, this approach has limitations, especially if you happen to be Poland.

"We don't make power projection a priority" is all very well until you find yourself totally unable to stop the Islamic State from carving out a fiefdom on the borders of a NATO member state. Or unable to stop one ethnic minority from slaughtering another in the Balkans.

"We don't have money to spare on maintenance" is all very well until you're worried about some random faction in a Pakistani civil war doing something daft with a medium range ballistic missile and it's your antimissile batteries that don't work for lack of spare parts and trained operators.

"We don't consider weapons development a priority" is all very well until you're trying to figure out how to counter Russian arms supplied to a hostile movement in a nearby country... and you couldn't respond by arming your friends in the same country even if you wanted to, because you have no weapons that would help them fight back effectively.

At some point, you really DO need to find some way to shake loose a little more money for your military, unless of course you have resigned yourself to being defeated by anyone and everyone out there who is prepared to use force.
Do you get the irony of your first example? The Islamic State only exists because of US power projection. The Bush administration has spent trillions on war, and only fanned the flames of Islamism, making live less secure for people in the middle east and Europe. Because if a government spends money on war machinery that can project power, it will use it, may it be necessary or not.
Also, how would Russia react to an increase of Germany military strength? Especially one that is directed at attacking and defeating Russia? Putin and the Kremlin are pretty paranoid already that the USA want to corned them both military and economically (and rightly so); how would they react if the are faced with a new German threat, too? One that perfectly fits with the well known Russian narrative of Nazi Germany attacking? This will only deepen the chasm between the Russian population and the rest of Europe.

Oh, and all accusation directed at Germany for not having full military potential and abandoning their allies can be directed at the USA too. The US didn't invest too few into their military, but they wasted it on needless wars in the middle east.
Thanas wrote:Getting away from the single issues, what programs do people here think Germany should conceivably undertake?

Even more importantly, given the clear mandate and constitutional law that demands a balanced budget, what other programs should be cut?
The constitutional law because it is stupid.

But stupid comments aside, that is a pretty difficult question and depends on what exactly is necessary. For most of the last two decades German military has been used as an occupational force against lightly armed insurgents in Afghanistan or similar duties as peace keeping forces. If groups like the Islamic State and the Taliban stay the main enemy Germany should focus on light and fast troops and aircraft for both transportation and bombing.
With the emerge of Russia as new old enemy it depends on how future conflict will look. I doubt this will ever escalate into a full blown land war. It's more likely to be an attack of special forces, electronic sabotage and aerial fights. So I would cut navy and heavy artillery.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Lonestar »

Thanas wrote:
Even more importantly, given the clear mandate and constitutional law that demands a balanced budget, what other programs should be cut?

I didn't know Newt Gingrich wrote the FRG's constitution.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Yeah, but if you preach austerity abroad it would look rather bad if you don't practice it yourself.
Welf wrote:With the emerge of Russia as new old enemy it depends on how future conflict will look. I doubt this will ever escalate into a full blown land war. It's more likely to be an attack of special forces, electronic sabotage and aerial fights. So I would cut navy and heavy artillery.
Our heavy artillery is an export success and one of the few things of ours that command respect, whereas our Navy is already barebones as is.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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I'm unconvinced that the Germans need a Navy more sophisticated than some ASW assets and minesweeping assets for the Baltic, truth be told. Cash for air defense ships would be better spent on, oh, making sure a larger percentage of the Typhoon fleet is operational.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Lonestar wrote:I'm unconvinced that the Germans need a Navy more sophisticated than some ASW assets and minesweeping assets for the Baltic, truth be told. Cash for air defense ships would be better spent on, oh, making sure a larger percentage of the Typhoon fleet is operational.
Sure if we would argue on the bare minimum, sure. But the thing is that some nations like the USA expect us to help with international operations like Somalia and Libanon, kinda hard to do without any huge ships. And the air defence ships - aren't they supposed to be part of the BMD where the USA expects a German contribution as well?
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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I'm not aware of ship based BMD that doesn't require AEGIS. Which the Germans haven't sprung for for their AAW ships.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Beowulf wrote:I'm not aware of ship based BMD that doesn't require AEGIS. Which the Germans haven't sprung for for their AAW ships.
I admit I might have gotten the wrong impression by the Promo materials from the European anti-Iran shield - I remember one CGI video that clearly showed a Sachsen-class.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Thanas wrote:
Beowulf wrote:I'm not aware of ship based BMD that doesn't require AEGIS. Which the Germans haven't sprung for for their AAW ships.
I admit I might have gotten the wrong impression by the Promo materials from the European anti-Iran shield - I remember one CGI video that clearly showed a Sachsen-class.
I think the Aster-30 has some form of ABM capabilities, if I recall.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Yeah it does, but we're not using it. Maybe I am confusing the ABM shield with the contribution to US carrier defence or cruise missile defence.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Thanas wrote:Yeah it does, but we're not using it. Maybe I am confusing the ABM shield with the contribution to US carrier defence or cruise missile defence.
No, your APAR/SMART-L equipped ships (Just like the Dutch and Danish ships so equipped) can take and guide the SM-3. That would however require you to Buy the SM-3.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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TimothyC wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah it does, but we're not using it. Maybe I am confusing the ABM shield with the contribution to US carrier defence or cruise missile defence.
No, your APAR/SMART-L equipped ships (Just like the Dutch and Danish ships so equipped) can take and guide the SM-3. That would however require you to Buy the SM-3.
Is there a reason why none of the Dutch, Danish or German ministries has done so so far? Was this concept of integrating them in the missile shield scrapped or did none of the European nations order any SM-3?
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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The missile is very expensive on a per round basis, for one. For two, Raytheon's been in talks with all three navies providing a modified missile (they use X vs S band datalinks to their missiles, so a dual-band receiver was required, it has since been developed) and it requires modifications to radars and combat systems on the ships involved. The Dutch have gone further than anyone else, they sent a ship to one of the ABM tests in the Pacific to test their systems, there's some conflicting reports on whether they've already modified the ships or not. Due to the cost of the missile, the last I heard of it, back in 2013, the nations were investigating a common European SM-3 pool. No orders for the missile have yet resulted and it is not considered likely to come soon.

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/45223/dutc ... ble-radars

It seems the Dutch have gone further than anybody else in fielding the radars necessary, but I have not yet heard of any missile order for the sea-based part of it.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

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Thank you for that information.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Zaune »

Well, there's one good thing about all this. It makes it easier to convince certain sections of the British public that you're not secretly plotting a Fourth Reich.
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Re: Ze Germans vill fight to ze last Pole

Post by Bernkastel »

Hmm, actually I'd imagine such people will just attribute this to some cunning ruse. The Germans no doubt have their weapons hidden in some incredibly secret location, which they shall unleash when the time is right. Then Germany will conquer the world!

Well, something like that.
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