10 dead, 35+ wounded at Batman premiere shooting

[RogueIce]

Grusome image of the backdoor of the theater.

http://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/me ... 234041.jpg

From reuters.

Grusome, and a bit telling. As that certainly looks like the suspect's car, it helps explain the whole "left and came back thing" because he was so close, it wouldn't take him very long. So even if there was a "silent alarm" for theater staff, they may not have gotten there before he went out, got his guns, and came back in.

It also goes into planning, because seriously to get a parking spot like that you have to get there pretty early. Unless theater 9 is in the back or something. Still, a parking space right against the building like that isn't easy to acquire.

Regarding alarming the doors and such, not sure if it would make a difference. As I said, with the silent alarm, if somebody's planning something like this (as was clearly the case here) they'd have their 'outside stash' pretty close by, so it's debatable whether theater staff would even have time to show up and go latch the door before the gunman came back - and it's not like the 16 or 17 year old kid they'd probably send would do much good at that point besides become another potential victim. And as far as the more mundane issue of people sneaking in, well, again, by the time an employee got there whoever was sneaking has probably done so and taken a seat; and they're hardly going to go around the theater demanding to see ticket stubs, so what's the point?

And as pointed out, they don't make them "Emergency Exit Only - Alarm Will Sound" style doors because people routinely leave them to exit the theater (often being more convenient than trekking back through the lobby) so they'd either have to disable the alarms at the end of every movie or deal with lots of false alarms. And even during the movie people might try to leave by them for whatever reason, like young children getting too upset or uncontrollable or whatever other reasons someone might have to leave a theater mid-movie.

And locking them from the inside is obviously not going to happen, because I'm pretty sure they'd be violating fire codes and such by doing so.

It appears it could have been much worse. He had set an alarm to blast loud music in his apartment around midnight, apparently to have a neighbor call in a noise complaint which would have resulted in police kicking down his door and setting off a bomb. That would have pulled all emergency response away from the theater, and would have given him a lot longer to rampage in the movie theater.

The only reason this didn't happen is for some reason his stereo turned itself off before a neighbor got fed up enough to call.

I think most modern alarms do that, just because people might wake up and leave early so they don't want the music/alarm beeping going off all day long. An auto-sleep thing, if you will.

And I guess we'd have to get Kamikaze Sith or SVPD to answer the question, but what are the odds police would force the door on a noise complaint, even if nobody ever answered after repeated attempts at knocking?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

If the entrance I think he went through was like others I've seen, its simply a door to the side of the screen in the theater that allows people to exit the building directly from the theater. They aren't emergency exits, and they don't have alarms. According to one account, the attacker actually KNOCKED and was let in by someone who I would guess assumed it was a person trying to sneak in.

Would that make that person an accessory to murder, or would they merely have all the deaths on their conscience, assuming they survived?

[General Zod]

If the entrance I think he went through was like others I've seen, its simply a door to the side of the screen in the theater that allows people to exit the building directly from the theater. They aren't emergency exits, and they don't have alarms. According to one account, the attacker actually KNOCKED and was let in by someone who I would guess assumed it was a person trying to sneak in.

Would that make that person an accessory to murder, or would they merely have all the deaths on their conscience, assuming they survived?

Assuming they're still alive, no. Not unless they somehow knew the intentions of the person they let in.

[eion]

If the doors were alarmed and used only in emergencies, or only opened at the end of a showing, or something, it would not only hopefully prevent another massacre like this, but also perhaps cut down on people trying to sneak in that way.

It is necessary for the doors to be operable from the inside while the movie's on, because that's when the room's full of people and when, if a fire cuts them off from the main entrance, they are most needed. I suppose you could just turn off the alarm for 10-20 minutes after the film ends, but that might cause problems with dumbasses not recognizing that the alarm is on at other times.

fire alarm goes off, doors unlock. Or after someone holds the open bar for 30 seconds an alarm sounds and the door opens like normal fire doors.

And as for people using them during or immediately after the show to exit: perhaps some habits will have to be retrained.

[Block]

Sure, so that way if someone comes in the front door he's got a captive audience for 30 seconds or if they only unlock when the fire alarm goes off, he's got them as long as he wants. Changing the external doors wouldn't have prevented this at all.

[Questor]

Not to mention being a massive overreaction to a one time occurrence.

Next people will be saying that we should have the TSA at the theaters with a "Movie-side" quarantine zone. While I'm sure the theater owners would love it (Nobody would get in with outside food/snacks), it's a moronic over-reaction, just like the [current implementation] of the TSA is.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Not to mention being a massive overreaction to a one time occurrence.

Next people will be saying that we should have the TSA at the theaters with a "Movie-side" quarantine zone. While I'm sure the theater owners would love it (Nobody would get in with outside food/snacks), it's a moronic over-reaction, just like the [current implementation] of the TSA is.

Also there is a viable alternative to movie theatres unlike aircraft, so they'd be out of business within a month.

[The Yosemite Bear]

ahh yes, netflciks how I adventually see any move a few months later while living in the sticks with out a car anymore....

[Enigma]

ahh yes, netflciks how I adventually see any move a few months later while living in the sticks with out a car anymore....

Bear, I think you meant to post that in Venting?

[The Yosemite Bear]

no refering to the comment directly above mine about how there are alternatives to going out to a movie theater, I have a nice wide screen TV (willed to me by my grandpa), a decent sound system and yes I do watch movies with friends, I just haven't been inside a theater for 3 years now.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And I guess we'd have to get Kamikaze Sith or SVPD to answer the question, but what are the odds police would force the door on a noise complaint, even if nobody ever answered after repeated attempts at knocking?

I'd say the odds are zero.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also the big brother state idea wouln't have stopped the guy in this case since he came in through one of the parkinglot exits.

[Zaune]

And I guess we'd have to get Kamikaze Sith or SVPD to answer the question, but what are the odds police would force the door on a noise complaint, even if nobody ever answered after repeated attempts at knocking?

I'd say the odds are zero.

Maybe it wasn't just the music he was going to use. A text message that sounded a bit like a suicide note would upgrade a noise complaint to a welfare check, and no matter what the letter of state law might say about probable cause, I doubt there are many cops who wouldn't kick the door down if they really and truly believed the guy was harming himself in there.

Or maybe the stereo was just a timed detonator test he forgot to dismantle after deciding it wouldn't work, and the bombs were always meant to wipe out the CSI team. I guess we'll find out when the bomb squad are done.

[Broomstick]

When people snap like this, people always look into his religious beliefs or academic and job issues. No one ever puts the spotlight on the obvious: no girlfriend.

Easy women. They could save America.

Women don't kill people at movie theaters
guns don't kill people at movie theaters
whackos kill people at movie theaters.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Mike needs to stop reading GENERATION KILL, and it's theory of Vagina Deprevation resulting in violence.....

[CaptainChewbacca]

They've been removing and demolishing devices from his apartment for about a day, and in addition to a razor tripwire across the front door and several bombs they've also found fuses, explosives, and about 6,000 rounds of ammunition.

Edit: The music was loud and the door was unlocked. If his neighbor had opened the door, it likely would have triggered an explosion.

[Kuja]

Edit: The music was loud and the door was unlocked. If his neighbor had opened the door, it likely would have triggered an explosion.

Jesus. I was just going to come into this thread and mention that very possibility. Fuck that idea is terrifying.

[Sea Skimmer]

The report is the bomb was thirty fireworks type mortar bombs wired into a control box with tripwires, and also two canister of flammable liquid. As well small arms ammunition was also scattered all over the apartment so it would cook off in a resulting fire. Police cut the tripwires and used a water disruptor to blow apart the control box, then dismantled everything else. It seems to have been viable, which isn't surprising given this sort of incendiary based configuration.

[weemadando]

Edit: The music was loud and the door was unlocked. If his neighbor had opened the door, it likely would have triggered an explosion.

Jesus. I was just going to come into this thread and mention that very possibility. Fuck that idea is terrifying.

If your neighbour is that much of an intrusive cunt, then well, they don't deserve to die a fiery death, but seriously - fuck your neighbours.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If music was blasting and I found a front door unlocked, I might be tempted to open it a crack and give a holler.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Maybe it wasn't just the music he was going to use. A text message that sounded a bit like a suicide note would upgrade a noise complaint to a welfare check, and no matter what the letter of state law might say about probable cause, I doubt there are many cops who wouldn't kick the door down if they really and truly believed the guy was harming himself in there.

Or maybe the stereo was just a timed detonator test he forgot to dismantle after deciding it wouldn't work, and the bombs were always meant to wipe out the CSI team. I guess we'll find out when the bomb squad are done.

Yeah, that could possibly work. Forced entry isn't about belief though. It is about articulation of the facts that you've observed. If the text message was detailed enough and you got a cell phone ping at or near his residence then you could articulate a need to force entry to protect life.

[CaptainChewbacca]

KS, if police responded to a noise call and got no answer but found the front door unlocked, would they be likely to open it and look around?

[TimothyC]

Huh. It turns out one of the victims was in my high school graduating class. I never interacted with the guy as he was in the Occupational Work Experience program while I was in the college prep track. Still, it hits closer to home now.

[Glocksman]

According to the news, Colorado has the most lax gun laws in the US- no ban on assault rifles or high capacity magazines, no background checks and no restriction on how many guns you can own.

This is bullshit, the most gun friendly state in the Union is Indiana where it is still legal to own a fully functional tank and any kind of weapon you can think of, enforcement is almost non-existent and what federal laws that exists are almost never enforced. People talk up the gun show loopholes of Virgina, but in Indiana as long as you don't look crazy you can get a gun quickly, nor do you have to register or license much of anything and collectors licenses let you get fully automatic assault rifles and machine guns (Even if Federal laws prevent you from making your own or modifying existing ones). Inside of a week assuming I have the cash I can buy six guns, get a conceal carry permit for all of them and ten thousand rounds of ammunition for each and I'll be congratulated by state officials as a thrifty shopper not a possible anarchist or separatist (The feds might give me the once over but they won't hear about me from state officials beyond what they are required to share by law)

Remember Indiana is a state set up for farmers who leave their farms twice a year which is why paperwork is almost non-existent and license plates can last for ten years.

A lot of US states allow you to own full autos as long as you comply with the rather strict applicable US statutes WRT their ownership, so our full auto laws aren't that out of line with the rest of the country.

We also require a permit where you have to at least pass a background check to legally carry a concealed handgun.

Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming and Vermont don't require any sort of license to carry a handgun, concealed or openly.

If you're interested, here's a link to the Indiana Codes WRT weaponry.

Admittedly our gun laws aren't the strictest, but all states have to follow Federal laws regarding the sale and posession of firearms and explosives.
IOW, a state can't override the Brady act and say that no background checks are needed for purchases from gun dealers.

As for the posters I've seen on some of the gun boards claiming that CCW carriers could have stopped this, I personally think they're nuts. Even if the perp wasn't wearing any body armor, shooting a pistol while you're among a crowd is simply fucking stupid unless he's shilouetted against the screen and there's no one around him or you're behind him and just shove it into his back and empty the magazine.

Even then, the risks of harming innocents is very high.

Personally I'd say most civilian gun carriers (including myself), would be best off simply leaving their gun holstered and bugging out.

[Aaron MkII]

This why risk assessment should be manditory for CCW, because I've seen a lot of this as well. Other then just bugginh out the only other sensible suggestion is Marina's a couple pages.

These guys would have started a serious backlash against legal carriers/owners. If someone had returned fire and hit or killed an innocent, what charges would they be looking at?