Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
RIPP_n_WIPE
Jedi Knight
Posts: 711
Joined: 2007-01-26 09:04am
Location: with coco

Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

From the Air Force Times
By Kristin Davis - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Jun 1, 2012 9:51:55 EDT
Two Fairchild Air Force Base, Wash., airmen who donned their uniforms for a photo session in support of Breastfeeding Awareness Month violated a policy that forbids military members from using the uniform to further a cause, promote a product or imply an endorsement, said Capt. Keith Kosik, spokesman for the Washington National Guard.

A photo of Senior Airman Terran Echegoyen-McCabe and Staff Sgt. Christina Luna breastfeeding their children in unbuttoned airman battle uniforms went viral this week. Echegoyen-McCabe, the mother of 10-month-old twin girls, is pictured with her T-shirt pushed above her bared chest.

The women are both members of the Air National Guard and part of Mom2Mom, the breast-feeding support group that organized the photo shoot. Mom2Mom founder Crystal Scott said the group planned to use the pictures in posters to encourage new and expectant mothers at Fairchild and nearby Spokane to breastfeed.

Most of the images, shot by Washington photographer Brynja Sigurdardottir, feature breastfeeding moms in civilian clothes. Those didn’t stir a debate. And the Air Force takes no issue with those, Kosik said.

Hundreds of people expressed support for Echegoyen-McCabe and Luna online. Others said they fully supported women who breastfeed in uniform but that it ought not to have been photographed and posted on the Internet. And some said women should either cover themselves or find someplace private to nurse in or out of uniform.

Echegoyen-McCabe said in a telephone interview Wednesday that she was proud of the photograph. “To me, it feels like I’m doing something amazing in my uniform.”

She said she didn’t do it to start a debate. The sensation surprised her, she said.

The Air Force has no policy on breastfeeding in uniform. But it does forbid airmen from using the uniform to advance the cause of an outside organization.

“The uniform was misused. That’s against regulations,” Kosik said. “I want to be very, very clear about this. Our issue is not, nor has it ever been, about breastfeeding. It has to do with honoring the uniform and making sure it’s not misused. I can’t wear my uniform to a political rally, to try to sell you something or push an ideology. That was our point of contention.”
As a husband of a wife who breast feeds our son I applaud these women for taking the healthiest route for their children and not relying on formula for the nutrition of their children. However as a soldier and fellow member of the uniformed services I can not abide their disrespect of the uniform. While I am not completely informed on AF uniform regulations, I am confident that the way they are dressed is completely out of uniform regulations (no cover, blouse unbuttoned, t shirt up, breasts exposed). I wonder if their children were cropped out of the photo, would their current state of dress be considered acceptable by their COC or other people? There are appropriate places to go where your state of uniform can be out of regulation for bodily function and or changing. Bathrooms or locker rooms or another private area where both the child/children can be fed and the dignity of the uniform preserved.

Not only are these blatant a uniform violations but they are also for the purpose of promoting an political cause. Save for specific instances sanctioned by the DoD (in the army dept of Civil Affairs) participating in political events or posing for photos which are political nature is restricted by military members. We are not allowed to participate in political events in uniform.

While these women are more likely than not good mothers, they are at best irresponsible airmen with poor discipline and a lack of respect for their service, placing their desire for political celebrity over their duty to the airforce. I can not lie, I am not too entirely surprised especially considering the politically charged environment and that they are irregulars (National Guard) that these women participated in these photos.

I am additionally sick and tired of soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines especially NG ones, who don't do it for a living and aren't expected to maintain the standard 24/7, 7 days a week, 365, using their once a month wear to spice up some kind of politic they like or sympathize with. If I recall correctly there was that SPC who wore his uniform to a rally in another thread.

Finally I hope this issue with women serving in combat MOS finally gets resolved in a way that does not diminish the physical standards of combat arms soldiers.

I am the hammer, I am the right hand of my Lord. The instrument of His will and the gauntlet about His fist. The tip of His spear, the edge of His sword. I am His wrath just as he is my shield. I am the bane of His foes and the woe of the treacherous. I am the end.


-Ravus Ordo Militis

"Fear and ignorance claim the unwary and the incomplete. The wise man may flinch away from their embrace if he girds his soul with the armour of contempt."
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Lonestar »

Seriously.

No one gives a fuck if they breastfeed in uniform. Really really. Posing in uniform while breastfeeding, however, is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Phantasee »

As far as I can tell the US military has been pretty consistent about their enforcement of the uniform regulations. What's the story? They broke a rule.
XXXI
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Lonestar »

Also, the airmen are entirely in keeping with what I know of female airmen.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Stofsk »

So what's the penalty for what they did?
Lonestar wrote:Also, the airmen are entirely in keeping with what I know of female airmen.
And that is?
Image
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Stofsk wrote:And that is?
In the US Armed Services, female Airmen are considered akin to Valley Girls. Lot's of team spirit, not a lot of thought.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Lonestar »

General Schatten wrote:In the US Armed Services, female Airmen are considered akin to Valley Girls. Lot's of team spirit, not a lot of thought.
And, let's be honest here, widely thought of as being the most...fit females in the DoD.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Lonestar »

By the way, for the curious, here's the chapter and verse on breastfeeding in the USAF:

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI44-102.pdf
BY ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY
4.16. Breastfeeding and Breast Pumping
4.16.1. Breastfeeding provides optimal health benefits for both mother and infant throughout their life spans. Exclusive breastfeeding is optimal nutrition for the first 6 months of life. Gradual introduction of solids begins in the second half of the first year and complements human milk, which remains essential to nutrition during this period. Extensive medical research has documented that breastfeeding has significant health, nutritional, immunologic, developmental, emotional, social, and economic benefits to mother and baby. The AFMS recommends that supervisors of AF members who are breastfeeding work with the member to arrange their work schedules to allow 15-30 minutes every 3-4 hours to pump breast milk in a room or an area that provides adequate privacy and cleanliness. Restrooms should not be considered an appropriate location for pumping. The AF member must supply the equipment needed to pump and store the breast milk.
The picture is only controversal because these two idiots decided to pose for a civilian cause in uniform.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Lonestar wrote:
General Schatten wrote:In the US Armed Services, female Airmen are considered akin to Valley Girls. Lot's of team spirit, not a lot of thought.
And, let's be honest here, widely thought of as being the most...fit females in the DoD.
I wouldn't say that, of the Armed Forces the only one I can actually say differentiates a whole lot is the Navy, the secretary at my MEPS was Navy personnel and she took up the entire space of a pair of glass doors.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by dragon »

I've asked a few of the commanders around here and they said the same as Lonestar. Breast deeding in Uniform is fine by them but promoting a civilan cause isn't.
And while they said that promotring this paticular cause is all good what the next cause might not be. So instead of batling over which ones can and which ones can't they ban all. Same with political statements soliders can make personal statements but not in uniform though they do all th time.

As a federal employee we have rules on supporting political activities called the Hatch Act. Many businesses have rules on supporting things. Coke representative can't drink pepsi in public etc. So it's not really a big deal reprimand them for violating the uniform rule and move on.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes
JointStrikeFighter
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 1979
Joined: 2004-06-12 03:09am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

Maybe the US military could take a leaf from other militariesand stop wasting time and harming morale with excessive uniform regulation.
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Themightytom »

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Maybe the US military could take a leaf from other militariesand stop wasting time and harming morale with excessive uniform regulation.
Oh please, I was told not to wear my Americorps sweatshirt at religious or political events, and their image wasn't quite as important as the armed forces. Telling your grunts not to speak for your organization without authorization is standard practice... EVERYWHERE, it's not a waste of time.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
Scrib
Jedi Knight
Posts: 966
Joined: 2011-11-19 11:59pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Scrib »

Themightytom wrote:
JointStrikeFighter wrote:Maybe the US military could take a leaf from other militariesand stop wasting time and harming morale with excessive uniform regulation.
Oh please, I was told not to wear my Americorps sweatshirt at religious or political events, and their image wasn't quite as important as the armed forces. Telling your grunts not to speak for your organization without authorization is standard practice... EVERYWHERE, it's not a waste of time.
I guess this is the issue. Because honestly, the "controversy" over breastfeeding recently is ridiculous. It isn't unreasonable to expect a certain image to be presented. These people should have the usual punishment for breaking the rules, and everyone should move on.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by General Zod »

Themightytom wrote:
JointStrikeFighter wrote:Maybe the US military could take a leaf from other militariesand stop wasting time and harming morale with excessive uniform regulation.
Oh please, I was told not to wear my Americorps sweatshirt at religious or political events, and their image wasn't quite as important as the armed forces. Telling your grunts not to speak for your organization without authorization is standard practice... EVERYWHERE, it's not a waste of time.
There's also the fact that a not insignificant portion of the American populace is easily swayed by military types. So it's not exactly an unreasonable concern that they don't want people promoting stuff in uniform.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Losonti Tokash
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2916
Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Losonti Tokash »

JointStrikeFighter wrote:Maybe the US military could take a leaf from other militariesand stop wasting time and harming morale with excessive uniform regulation.
I would be greatly surprised if other nations didn't have regs preventing service members from using their uniforms for political gain. There's plenty of silly shit on the books but this is hardly one of them.
General Schatten wrote:
Stofsk wrote:And that is?
In the US Armed Services, female Airmen are considered akin to Valley Girls. Lot's of team spirit, not a lot of thought.
How is that different from enlisted in all the other branches? :V
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Phantasee »

dragon wrote:As a federal employee we have rules on supporting political activities called the Hatch Act. Many businesses have rules on supporting things. Coke representative can't drink pepsi in public etc. So it's not really a big deal reprimand them for violating the uniform rule and move on.
I wonder about that. I've seen a lot of Pepsi commericals lately where a Coke delivery driver is drinking Pepsi, with the logos on the uniform and truck, and everything. How do they get away with using the other guy's logo in their commerical?
XXXI
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by General Zod »

Phantasee wrote:
dragon wrote:As a federal employee we have rules on supporting political activities called the Hatch Act. Many businesses have rules on supporting things. Coke representative can't drink pepsi in public etc. So it's not really a big deal reprimand them for violating the uniform rule and move on.
I wonder about that. I've seen a lot of Pepsi commericals lately where a Coke delivery driver is drinking Pepsi, with the logos on the uniform and truck, and everything. How do they get away with using the other guy's logo in their commerical?
Fair use laws most likely? As long as they're not deliberately lying about their competitor companies have done this as long as advertising has been around.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by General Zod »

Destructionator XIII wrote:If it is a crime to use military credentials while expressing a political opinion because that sways people, why aren't people like the retired generals and colonels charged when they proudly publish things like
You should vote yes on Issue X

by COLONEL Political Commentator, US Army (ret)

I was in the Army for 28 years, so you can trust me when I tell you ISSUE X is GOOD FOR OUR TROOPS.

If constitutionally protected free speech must be restricted when in uniform because that's using the military to sway people, shouldn't it also apply when people out of uniform boast about their military credentials and sway people?
I think the key difference is that they're retired. As long as you're not currently serving the military doesn't really give a shit.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Captain Seafort
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
Location: Blighty

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Captain Seafort »

Destructionator XIII wrote:It just seems to me that there isn't really consistent logic here. If they don't give a shit about private enterprise or retired officers do it, why is it suddenly a big problem when reservists do it?
Because private enterprises and retired officers aren't working for the government. When someone says "I work for X and I support Y", it naturally gives the impression that organisation X also supports Y. It is therefore natural that X should wish to control such statements very closely.
User avatar
Losonti Tokash
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2916
Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Because someone currently in the military representing themselves a member of the armed forces while endorsing a cause (political or otherwise) gives the impression of the service itself endorsing said cause, which is something the military generally tries to (and should) avoid doing. Civilians or ex-military are not currently serving and so don't give off the same impression or have the same responsibilities.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Simon_Jester »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Here's another case of the military being used to push something:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMiPM9sAk4

I see that fucking commercial every day, and it disgusts me on so many levels, but here it is blatantly using the uniform for some other purpose.

Of course, the people in that parade or whatever weren't the ones who made the commercial, but if there's a serious problem with military imagery being used to push other ideas on people, shouldn't using the uniform to sell a(n unrelated) product be banned too?

(Congress could implement that by passing a law asserting something like trademark rights over the military's symbols and uniforms, so it could be enforced on civilians as well as military.)
If army uniforms are trademarked, can I make a movie that makes the army look bad without the Pentagon stopping me? Remember who would have control over the trademark. Would that be progress?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by General Zod »

Destructionator XIII wrote:They might have to use older uniforms, like with the post office. TV mailmen always wear the old USPS logo (or a fictionalized variant of it) to sidestep the trademark there.


Anyway though, would it be progress for free speech? No, but view is we ought to apply logic consistently, one way or the other.

If it is a problem to have the uniform* associated with a political position (which I don't believe, and won't without solid evidence to the contrary), then it should be banned across the board.

And if it isn't a problem for society, it should be permitted by all.


* I'm assuming "uniform" isn't restricted to it's literal reading, since that'd be pretty silly too. Calling yourself "Colonel, US Army" is obviously associating yourself with the military, just like the uniform, and should get the same treatment, if that association is the root of the problem.


----

Now, on the other hand, different treatment would be logical if it has nothing to do with society at large. If the military wants people to don't ask and don't tell political opinions to maintain "good order and discipline", my argument falls apart.

There's no reason for maintaining good order and discipline for people who aren't active duty military, so obviously they'd be treated differently than the rest of us.

However, that justification brings its own set of questions as to whether it is really a good idea.
Me wrote:I think the key difference is that they're retired. As long as you're not currently serving the military doesn't really give a shit.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Phantasee »

Being able to call yourself Col. So and So, (Ret'd) is more like being able to put So and So, MSc after your name. You've earned that rank or credential, and unless you do something while under the UCMJ to get your rank or credential stripped (like academic dishonesty can get your degree revoked), you can't take that away from anyone.

Pharmaceutical companies used Dr. So and So all the time to lend weight to their advertisements. White lab coats, even, which is more dishonest. But if that guy is actually a doctor you can't tell them to not use his title in the ad. And the military as protected itself from the equivalent of the white lab coat.
XXXI
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Also they're frequently actually wearing American Legion paramilitary uniforms rather than actual US military uniforms when they do appear in public.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Losonti Tokash
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2916
Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm

Re: Two Airmen Breastfeed in Uniform

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Prove it.
What, in particular, are you asking to be proven?
Post Reply