Obama speaking on debt crisis.
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Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Well, its on CNN right now, and Obama claims an agreement has been achieved.
Basically:
-Big cuts (1 trillion over ten years, I think he said).
-No tax hikes mentioned.
-A committee to investigate other approaches, and it sounds like Obama will still be pushing for tax hikes.
-Debt ceiling raised. Thank the Lord.
I may post more details later.
Basically:
-Big cuts (1 trillion over ten years, I think he said).
-No tax hikes mentioned.
-A committee to investigate other approaches, and it sounds like Obama will still be pushing for tax hikes.
-Debt ceiling raised. Thank the Lord.
I may post more details later.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Basically it looks like the Republican ‘deal’ will be the deal; but minus the balanced budget amendment and the 18% of GDP spending cap that the Senate would never pass. Great, we get to do this all over again next summer!
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
So, Obama just bended over. Again. Can't say I'm surprised, but why? Why can he never find his balls?
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Its a sorry world we live in where this is considered a compromise, but compared to what the Tea Party wanted, I guess it actually is.
One thing that makes it slightly easier to swallow is that apparently a lot of the cuts will be to defence (though medicare may take a hit too ).
One thing that makes it slightly easier to swallow is that apparently a lot of the cuts will be to defence (though medicare may take a hit too ).
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
For the sake of people who would suffer by getting caught in the middle, I have to say that I am just as glad that this time he chose not to take a hardline position at the last minute.
He might have been able to avoid such a disaster by showing more courage at other stages in the game, but this was not the time for posturing.
He might have been able to avoid such a disaster by showing more courage at other stages in the game, but this was not the time for posturing.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Predictable, but probably unjustified. What would you have had him do? Let the US default, with the suffering that would befall millions of people as a result? I realize bashing Obama for not snapping his fingers like Q and making your dreams come true is trendy here, but give it a rest.Narkis wrote:So, Obama just bended over. Again. Can't say I'm surprised, but why? Why can he never find his balls?
Obama has to work within the system. That system is currently largely controlled by the GOP. Sucks, but its the truth.
Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Again RR he has the 14th Amendment option, he also had the option of not waiting until now when this became a massive pressing issue to get a deal made. He's let the Congress lead to his great sorrow on every issue.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
I don't know. It's possible this was the only option left to him. I've heard he could invoke the 14th amendment, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about the US legal code to say how good an option that'd be. He could definitely try doing something more decisive before it became a last minute issue. But it really sucks when the goddamn President of the United States caves in to any demand made by these lunatics. And what the heck is he gonna do next year when this thing repeats itself? The Tea Partiers aren't gonna back down for sure.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
I remember reading (in one of the other threads here I think) that the 14th. Amendment solution was Constitutionally dubious, and that if he tried it and it was ruled Unconstitutional, it could actually make things worse.Mr Bean wrote:Again RR he has the 14th Amendment option, he also had the option of not waiting until now when this became a massive pressing issue to get a deal made. He's let the Congress lead to his great sorrow on every issue.
As for acting sooner, maybe he had other issues to worry about a year, or six months ago. Or maybe he didn't expect the right to be this stupid and callous (which would be naive, but perhaps understandable). And honestly, I doubt it would have made much different. Its last minute pressure that's forcing consensus. If he'd acted earlier, I think it might still have turned out this way.
But I don't expect that to stop your reflexive Obama bashing.
Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Why would they back down? When you give in to hostage takers...they take more hostages and make more demands. And those demands will be met because Obama wants to give in because he wants the Republicans to like him. Or he thinks the Republicans are right... or... he's just that weak.Narkis wrote:I don't know. It's possible this was the only option left to him. I've heard he could invoke the 14th amendment, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about the US legal code to say how good an option that'd be. He could definitely try doing something more decisive before it became a last minute issue. But it really sucks when the goddamn President of the United States caves in to any demand made by these lunatics. And what the heck is he gonna do next year when this thing repeats itself? The Tea Partiers aren't gonna back down for sure.
The 14 Amendment option is constitutionally sound, Debt limits did not exists until a few decades ago and in the opinion of legal scholars not currently employed by Fox News it is a sound argument. More importantly beyond the legality of it, it gives the President time and turns this from a ticking time bomb that's going to go off in a week to one that's going to go off next year when the case would have come before the Supreme Court which funny enough is the EXACT same time frame that this bill is going to elapse. The only difference being one option gives away a trillion dollars in cuts to government spending in a downturn economy.The Romulan Republic wrote:
I remember reading (in one of the other threads here I think) that the 14th. Amendment solution was Constitutionally dubious, and that if he tried it and it was ruled Unconstitutional, it could actually make things worse.
Or your reflexive Obama can do no wrong fanboyism? As I've mentioned before and you seem to have forgotten, I'm not some rabid Obama hater who voted for McCain who loves his guns and hates them damn illegal aliens who dun took Mah JOB! No sir, I gave time and money to the Obama campaign in 2008 and unlike you I'm willing to call a spade a spade. If the President does something good I'll say good for the President. But if he's willing for the third time to start a negotiation on Republican ground and the end position of the debate is MORE Conservative than the initial Republican position? Then I will call it as I see it.The Romulan Republic wrote:But I don't expect that to stop your reflexive Obama bashing.
Last edited by Mr Bean on 2011-07-31 10:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Of course it is. The Tea Partiers are right now screaming and wailing about how this is a complete defeat, a fig leaf for the RINO leadership, how Obama got a blank check for only token cuts etc etc. Several of the more impractical Republican suggestions are gone, and in any case both plans used dubious baselines and backloaded cuts to the extent that there will be no actual spending decreases in the near future (i.e. before the whole can of worms is opened again).The Romulan Republic wrote:Its a sorry world we live in where this is considered a compromise, but compared to what the Tea Party wanted, I guess it actually is.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
So you would rather have had a default?Mr Bean wrote: Why would they back down? When you give in to hostage takers...they take more hostages and make more demands. And those demands will be met because Obama wants to give in because he wants the Republicans to like him. Or he thinks the Republicans are right... or... he's just that weak.
Obama is not going to give in to the GOP for no reason, and if he agreed with them he could have just run as a Republican. And it is not nessissarily weakness to accept a compromise, even a lop-sided one, to avoid a national disaster. This could actually have been a lot worse. Its not a good deal. Its not what I wanted. But its better than a default.
Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Or he doesn't feel like dealing with the fallout if the nuttier end of the right wing are actually serious about "2nd Amendment Solutions", though personally I'd just love to watch them try.Mr Bean wrote:Why would they back down? When you give in to hostage takers...they take more hostages and make more demands. And those demands will be met because Obama wants to give in because he wants the Republicans to like him. Or he thinks the Republicans are right... or... he's just that weak.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Again he had the 14th amendment option, he also had the line item Veto option where in the President picked and chose what would get payed and would not get payed in essence the default giving him the power to kill any program in the entire Federal government he did not like. Killing all Congressional salaries for one might have a wonderful effect on some of these freshmen Republicans.The Romulan Republic wrote:
So you would rather have had a default?
Obama is not going to give in to the GOP for no reason, and if he agreed with them he could have just run as a Republican. And it is not nessissarily weakness to accept a compromise, even a lop-sided one, to avoid a national disaster. This could actually have been a lot worse. Its not a good deal. Its not what I wanted. But its better than a default.
And I'll remind you RR that we will be back here in less than a year, and what do you think the Tea Party will make Obama give away then? If he trades away Medicare or Social security for another debt ceiling increase will you throw up your hands again and say What could he do? The Republicans were just so crazy!
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
When the other party is fundamentally negotiating in bad faith, precisely what other outcome (besides actual factual default) is possible? I'm not pleased with this result, but I don't try to withhold various phones, keys, trinkets from muggers either.
As for invoking the 14th, that would be the surest possible way to get the House to not pass a single bill (save articles of impeachment) until 2012.
As for invoking the 14th, that would be the surest possible way to get the House to not pass a single bill (save articles of impeachment) until 2012.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
The 14th amendment option was of questionable legality, as I already noted and as you ignored. I don't know anything much about the line item veto option and don't recall seeing any previous mention of it in discussions on this topic, so please elaborate.Mr Bean wrote: Again he had the 14th amendment option, he also had the line item Veto option where in the President picked and chose what would get payed and would not get payed in essence the default giving him the power to kill any program in the entire Federal government he did not like. Killing all Congressional salaries for one might have a wonderful effect on some of these freshmen Republicans.
First of all source that this is going to come up within a year, because I've heard that this increase is more long term than that.And I'll remind you RR that we will be back here in less than a year, and what do you think the Tea Party will make Obama give away then? If he trades away Medicare or Social security for another debt ceiling increase will you throw up your hands again and say What could he do? The Republicans were just so crazy!
Second of all, you have not yet answered my question: would you prefer a default?
Third of all, this situation only continues while the GOP holds the House. If Obama can stave off a default until 2012, and then the Democrats retake the House, we might actually be able to resolve the situation without global disaster.
Furthermore, this is not as one-sided as it appears. Yes, their are big cuts and no tax hikes. But a lot of those cuts are apparently going to come from a Republican favorite, defence. And the crazier Tea Party crap (like the balanced budget amendment or simply letting the country default) has been averted. Its not a perfect deal. But when do you ever get a perfect deal in politics? Again, this is like attacking Obama for not being Q.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
The line item veto was ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court many years ago and never used. Try to do that and low and behold, the Congress now has a completely valid reason to impeach Obama.Mr Bean wrote: Again he had the 14th amendment option, he also had the line item Veto option where in the President picked and chose what would get payed and would not get payed in essence the default giving him the power to kill any program in the entire Federal government he did not like. Killing all Congressional salaries for one might have a wonderful effect on some of these freshmen Republicans.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
The Line Item Veto option is something that Congress gave to President Clinton back in the 90s, which was promptly ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the US. There is no line item veto option that the president can currently exercise.Mr Bean wrote: Again he had the 14th amendment option, he also had the line item Veto option where in the President picked and chose what would get payed and would not get payed in essence the default giving him the power to kill any program in the entire Federal government he did not like. Killing all Congressional salaries for one might have a wonderful effect on some of these freshmen Republicans.
Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
The increase is what $2.1 trillion? Minus the $200 billion or so they robbed from the government pension funds which they now have to put back. That gives $1.9 trillion of room left. The US is currently running a deficit of about $1.5-1.8 trillion depending on which estimates you go by, either way you're going to hit the limit again in about 12-15 months.The Romulan Republic wrote:First of all source that this is going to come up within a year, because I've heard that this increase is more long term than that.
Question: Default now or default later when things are further down the shitter?Second of all, you have not yet answered my question: would you prefer a default?
By then you'll have a couple trillion of extra debt to deal with, the US may lose its AAA debt rating and have to pay higher interest rates on its debt, and barring a miracle the economy's going to be even worse than it is today. The longer you let it go the harder it becomes to fix the problem, compound interest is a bitch.Third of all, this situation only continues while the GOP holds the House. If Obama can stave off a default until 2012, and then the Democrats retake the House, we might actually be able to resolve the situation without global disaster.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Hmm. That's concerning. But at least it buys a little time.aerius wrote:The increase is what $2.1 trillion? Minus the $200 billion or so they robbed from the government pension funds which they now have to put back. That gives $1.9 trillion of room left. The US is currently running a deficit of about $1.5-1.8 trillion depending on which estimates you go by, either way you're going to hit the limit again in about 12-15 months.
That assumes a default is inevitable.Question: Default now or default later when things are further down the shitter?
Granted, but it seems it isn't really solvable while the GOP holds the House, other than by cutting massively from various programs, which hurts a lot of people anyway.By then you'll have a couple trillion of extra debt to deal with, the US may lose its AAA debt rating and have to pay higher interest rates on its debt, and barring a miracle the economy's going to be even worse than it is today. The longer you let it go the harder it becomes to fix the problem, compound interest is a bitch.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Not surprised - Obama bent over again, and no doubt that 'special' committee will be completely pointless. I can already see Fox News spinning like crazy to prove the democrats are unwilling to compromise and all those big cuts are going to come out of Defence - to which Obama will readily bend over and take it again, and absolutely nothing will be solved except for him getting laughed out of office and the country dragging the rest of the world with it when it inevitably defaults because TAXES ARE EVIL!
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Why is it so hard for some people to just pursue the parsimonious answer that he just doesn't give a fuck about me or you?Narkis wrote:So, Obama just bended over. Again. Can't say I'm surprised, but why? Why can he never find his balls?
Of course, I am sure every well-meaning liberal will line up quietly and obediently in a year and vote for him anyway, because of the endless hysteria. I tell you what the Tea Party is best for: making sure Democrats can vote like 90's Republicans and take no responsibility for it, ever. The U.S. Constitutional system electorally seemed built from the ground up to make sure everyone is suckered into lesser-evil votes tying them to the really pretty broad policy consensus not just nation-wide, but world-wide (austerity for all, it is the social programs which are hurting profits making the economy bad for everyone).
No significant change or diversion from the major policy preferences of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the typical feelings one could casually survey on Wall Street will ever be yielded through picking Thing A or Thing B through the legal political system. We didn't leave Vietnam because people elected Nixon, either.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Because it's wrong. He's a politician. Politicians require votes in order to keep being politicians. Neither is he dumb enough to think this isn't costing him votes, though I'm sure I don't know who else you're supposed to vote for if you're even slightly to the left of Glenn Beck.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why is it so hard for some people to just pursue the parsimonious answer that he just doesn't give a fuck about me or you?Narkis wrote:So, Obama just bended over. Again. Can't say I'm surprised, but why? Why can he never find his balls?
But Obama can be the President who let his opponents dictate terms to the long-term detriment of the country, or the President who stood firm on a point of principle and took the country down with him. For better or worse, he chose to be the former.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
The electorate is dumb enough to vote again considering a very narrow amount of choices. Besides, how is he going to stop being a politician if he loses a presidential election? So far I heard, all former US presidents spent their post-presidency life as wealthy fucks with no problems in life - except the few ones who got murderized, like Kennedy and Lincoln. You have to be truly crazy to think your NYAH NYAH vote seriously makes Obama's life worse.Zaune wrote:Because it's wrong. He's a politician. Politicians require votes in order to keep being politicians.
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Re: Obama speaking on debt crisis.
Wrong. Elections are primarily driven by public relations and rich donors and basically the same way you find out which toothpaste you'll buy. The atomized individualized public is not an active agent in the process.Zaune wrote:Because it's wrong. He's a politician. Politicians require votes in order to keep being politicians.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why is it so hard for some people to just pursue the parsimonious answer that he just doesn't give a fuck about me or you?Narkis wrote:So, Obama just bended over. Again. Can't say I'm surprised, but why? Why can he never find his balls?
I just said that no meaningful political or social change comes from merely voting, or even voting at all.Zaune wrote:Neither is he dumb enough to think this isn't costing him votes, though I'm sure I don't know who else you're supposed to vote for if you're even slightly to the left of Glenn Beck.
Obama was the candidate of the financial industry, and he has continued to shill very well for corporate interests, whatever his meaningless rhetoric, since 2008. His party has almost no popular institutions represented whatsoever, since the relative social peace in the various 'identity-based' groups since the 1970s, and with organized labor being at below 10% of the entire labor force, and getting it head kicked in constantly.Zaune wrote:But Obama can be the President who let his opponents dictate terms to the long-term detriment of the country, or the President who stood firm on a point of principle and took the country down with him. For better or worse, he chose to be the former.
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