The Crumbling of America (Op-Ed)

[Broomstick]

Yeah, one of the fucking dumb things about the US - we build shit, then don't take care of it.

[Commander 598]

When I was driving through the USA five years ago, I noticed bridges that were in such a disrepair that they would be fixed in Europe or people would scream bloody murder. But people were using them as major traffic lanes...

This thing is held up by an odd assortment of wooden poles and steel beams:



And I'm not entirely sure it wasn't a paved over wooden bridge:

[Temujin]

There are some bridges you just can't help but cringe when going over; and in some cases going under, as you can plainly see just how dilapidated they are.

[Lonestar]

When I was driving through the USA five years ago, I noticed bridges that were in such a disrepair that they would be fixed in Europe or people would scream bloody murder. But people were using them as major traffic lanes...

So around here the dilaphidated Woodrow Wilson bridge over the Potomac finally got replaced recently, and to put it in perspective the kind of attitude that we have the transit agency in charge of the bridge held a essay contest for the right the 'splode the old one. The subject of the essay?

"What was the worst experience you've ever had with with WW Bridge?"

I seem to recall that it was something outrageous. Like a pickup with a Fridge in the bed hitting a big pothole and it flying out and hitting the car behind him. The thing that I really remember though? Some transit agency wonk was saying "it was a very close contest".

EDIT: Also, I seem to recall that the A5 and A8 in Germany weren't anything to write home about either when I was out there last year.

[MKSheppard]

About the only reason not to just build a new bridge over the old one is because of the dam sitting literally right next to it

Are you this stupid? This right there is one of the biggest problems with infrastructure replacement projects.

You might be able to close State Road 412212 in east bumfuck Ohio (ARRRGHHH to that when travelling to Hamilton one night in 2008); to replace a bridge on it, since little to no traffic travels over it.

But try doing that with something like the Wilson Bridge:



See that bridge on the top? That's the old span. The mess on the bottom is the new bridge (span one) under construction.

[Commander 598]

You might be able to close State Road 412212 in east bumfuck Ohio (ARRRGHHH to that when travelling to Hamilton one night in 2008); to replace a bridge on it, since little to no traffic travels over it.

That was my point. Since it was a pretty generic road with nothing particularly important on it and almost no traffic that they should've taken out the old one instead of doing a major engineering project vastly exceeding it's original length as seen here:

But try doing that with something like the Wilson Bridge:



See that bridge on the top? That's the old span. The mess on the bottom is the new bridge (span one) under construction.

I'm pretty sure that it's single most important function is to allow residents of Bienville and Webster parishes to get to the only bar within 20 miles without having to go all the way around the other end of the lake...or through it since it's accessible by boat. (There is a story here...)

[Thanas]

EDIT: Also, I seem to recall that the A5 and A8 in Germany weren't anything to write home about either when I was out there last year.

They are getting fixed AFAIK.

That said, you never will find the potholes in them - even in their old state - that you will find in american roads.

[Flagg]

EDIT: Also, I seem to recall that the A5 and A8 in Germany weren't anything to write home about either when I was out there last year.

They are getting fixed AFAIK.

That said, you never will find the potholes in them - even in their old state - that you will find in american roads.

Alot of the problem is that it's local jurisdictions that are charged with keeping that shit maintained. I know my recent ambulance ride to the ER got alot less bumpy once we crossed from my town into the next.

[Dahak]

EDIT: Also, I seem to recall that the A5 and A8 in Germany weren't anything to write home about either when I was out there last year.

They are getting fixed (and expanded the A8 expanded to 3 direction lanes) bit by bit, a lot of it between Karlsruhe and München is now new, but until they finish it will be still some years. But those parts that are new are quite nice to drive (and when it's finished, maybe they lift the stupid speed limit on those tracks between Karlsruhe and Stuttgart *grrr*).

[FSTargetDrone]

This past April, I was out walking my sister's dog and we walked under a concrete bridge that supports a 2-lane road. It always looked like it was pretty good shape whenever I drove over it.

I'd never walked under it before that day. This is what I saw on the ground when I walked under the bridge for the first time:



This is what I saw when I looked up:



I don't know how often it is inspected, but I e-mailed the pictures to the township.

[Medic]

We've only 2.7m (for million) miles of paved road at a density of 70km if road per 100 sq. km. Germany's density is 180.5, almost 2.5 times as compact.
Furthermore, as Flagg noted, there exists huge variance - state level being one, city and county being another entirely - in budgets to maintain all of that. [I'd source that if it wasn't the product of 5 minutes of googling on a slow connection]

If I went to a well-to-do suburb of Austin (let's call it "Cedar Park") and extrapolated the conditions of those roads to the rest of America... fuck, we'd be sitting pretty.


I won't bother guessing at the difference in the USE of those roads. Weather is certainly not any worse here than bad weather in Germany; we get tornadoes but all other things being equal... well I guess nothing's really equal in this comparison. I mean hell, does Germany even have more than 1 climate? We range from "Arctic" to "subtropical." The trucks are bigger, of which there are more to boot... if I went long enough I could find some similarity instead of some huge difference I suppose. They're both PAVED and driven on...

[Thanas]

We've only 2.7m (for million) miles of paved road at a density of 70km if road per 100 sq. km. Germany's density is 180.5, almost 2.5 times as compact.
Furthermore, as Flagg noted, there exists huge variance - state level being one, city and county being another entirely - in budgets to maintain all of that. [I'd source that if it wasn't the product of 5 minutes of googling on a slow connection]

You really do not think we have different levels of funding as well, leading to some variance (see: roads in northern Germany and roads in southern Germany)? Also, what the heck is with the ? I was talking from personal experience here.

I won't bother guessing at the difference in the USE of those roads. Weather is certainly not any worse here than bad weather in Germany; we get tornadoes but all other things being equal... well I guess nothing's really equal in this comparison. I mean hell, does Germany even have more than 1 climate? We range from "Arctic" to "subtropical."

Yeah, but so what? Most damage to roads is done in bad winters AFAIK of which Germany has plenty.

The trucks are bigger, of which there are more to boot...

Not bigger anymore, Germany recently relaxed the rules on them. And more trucks to boot...what is your source regarding truck density on German and American roads?

[Stark]

No, no, no. If you can point and say 'neener neener you suck too' it makes the problem go away.

[Jade Falcon]

Hell, the town I stay in doesn't really have roads, it has a cratered surface with some occasional pieces of tarmac. Even a main riverbridge has a piece worn right through to the bridge decking.

Another example was my former hometown up the coast. They replaced a bridge there. It had been a railway till about 1963 and then a road built on top of the trackbed. The old railway bridge was replaced then by a temporary Bailey Bridge built by the Royal Engineers. I suppose you can call 47 years temporary as its just been replaced.....

[Broomstick]

I won't bother guessing at the difference in the USE of those roads. Weather is certainly not any worse here than bad weather in Germany; we get tornadoes but all other things being equal... well I guess nothing's really equal in this comparison. I mean hell, does Germany even have more than 1 climate? We range from "Arctic" to "subtropical."

Yeah, but so what? Most damage to roads is done in bad winters AFAIK of which Germany has plenty.

The only weather effect I can see being significant is our temperature range over the course of the year. My particular area has temperatures ranging from -35 C in the winter to 40 C in the summer. I don't know how that compares to Germany or most of the rest of Europe, but other than that, I can't fathom how the climate could be that different, to make a significant difference.

The trucks are bigger, of which there are more to boot...

Not bigger anymore, Germany recently relaxed the rules on them. And more trucks to boot...what is your source regarding truck density on German and American roads?

For trucks, weight is also a factor. In the US the interstate system allows up to 36,000 kg gross weight for trucks, but oversize/overweight permits are obtainable. I know our local steel mills get waviers for overweight trucks hauling steel - don't know how heavy they are, but they tear the living fuck out of the roads. And the last time one tangled with a train the train lost, so they are quite heavy indeed. But that's by no means universal.

But with local control a lot depends on whether locals are willing to spend the money. My parents used to live in an upper class neighborhood with absolute shit for roads because the locals, despite their wealth, refused to fund the local road maintenance to the point that their roads were far worse than many less wealthy neighborhoods (I suspect some anti-government ideology run amok)

[Medic]

No, no, no. If you can point and say 'neener neener you suck too' it makes the problem go away.

Way to miss the point. Mine was: American roads quite likely are worse -- they've got a lot of things going against them, from being more spread out to sheer use. If it's rural, one the one hand, they're not used nearly as much as a city road, but the supporting budget is correspondingly smaller. Reverse this for a city: plenty of money, but the road's are heavily trafficked and it's a pain in everyone's ass to close even one to upgrade it.

Yes America could/should do better, but I somehow doubt a city council had on their desk a proposal to either fill the potholes or buy an MRAP. Being the richest state in the world can be divorced from the condition of our roads.

[Thanas]

For trucks, weight is also a factor. In the US the interstate system allows up to 36,000 kg gross weight for trucks, but oversize/overweight permits are obtainable. I know our local steel mills get waviers for overweight trucks hauling steel - don't know how heavy they are, but they tear the living fuck out of the roads. And the last time one tangled with a train the train lost, so they are quite heavy indeed. But that's by no means universal.

We have those as well and one can regularly meet them on the autobahn a night.

[Dahak]

A huge amount of lorries are running daily through Germany, from north to south, east to west, simply because it is sitting in the middle of it all. The rightmost lane is usually packed fender to fender with 40-ton-lorries on working days. So our motorways have to sustain a lot of battering, as well...

[Broomstick]

Of course, it was your legendary autobahn that lead Eisenhower to build our interstate highway system here. It's not exactly the same, but yours was the inspiration and the model.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Wasn't the Autobahn built to a much higher standard than the Interstate System to start with, I remember hearing that the road surface was twice as thick, or something like that.

[Broomstick]

I don't know about thickness, although given how much more extensive the US interstate system is compared to the autobahn it wouldn't surprise me - that's a LOT of roadbed to pay for. I do know the US system is thick and strong enough to support tanks, but obviously anything will wear down if you run enough trucks over it.

I do know, for sure, that in mountainous regions the US interstate has a steeper road grade than the autobahn. There are probably some other differences as well.

[Kanastrous]

It may be urban legend but I've heard it said that the original sections of the autobahn were designed without adequate expansion joints and that the roads deteriorated rapidly until that was rectified.

Given the German reputation for engineering prowess it seems fishy but then again people make mistakes when building the first of anything.

[Iosef Cross]

When I was driving through the USA five years ago, I noticed bridges that were in such a disrepair that they would be fixed in Europe or people would scream bloody murder. But people were using them as major traffic lanes...

The population density in Europe is much higher than in the US, as result, in the US you have a greater number of km of roadways per capita than in Europe. Since per capita income in the US isn't significantly higher than in Europe, the per km expenditures for road maintenance tend to be much smaller.

I suspect that the US expenditures per capita in roadways are higher than in Europe. As their electricity consumption per capita is twice the European levels.

[Iosef Cross]

Per capita consumption of electricity, watts per person:

European Union - 700
USA - 1,460

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... onsumption

So, the US is reducing electricity consumption? Thank God! They consume absurd quantities of electricity for lighting their suburbs, for example.

Yes, the Germans have their autobahns in much better state, why? It is simple, the German autobahn was 12,174 km in length in 2005, while the American interstate highway system is 75,440 km in length, 6.2 times longer than the German autobahn. (source: wikipedia's pages on the US and Germany's highway systems) The population of the US, by contrast, is only 3.7 times the population of Germany. The per capita mileage of the US interstate system is 170% of Germany's. Hence, it is understandable that Germany's highways are twice as thick as American's.

The reason that US's highways are in a worse state than their European equivalents is that the US population is distributed in a much larger area, requiring greater quantities of infrastructure, of worse quality. It is easy to have good infrastructure when your country is 3-4% of the size of the US (the sizes of UK and Germany, respectively).

[Thanas]

When I was driving through the USA five years ago, I noticed bridges that were in such a disrepair that they would be fixed in Europe or people would scream bloody murder. But people were using them as major traffic lanes...

The population density in Europe is much higher than in the US, as result, in the US you have a greater number of km of roadways per capita than in Europe. Since per capita income in the US isn't significantly higher than in Europe, the per km expenditures for road maintenance tend to be much smaller.

This wasn't a bridge on a deserted highway, it was one of a few main arteries leading into an inner city.