Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Mr Bean »

Wait... what?
AP wrote:
WASHINGTON — President George W. Bush on Wednesday revoked a pardon he had granted only a day before _ a step unheard of in recent memory _ after learning in news reports of political contributions to Republicans by the man's father and other information.

Bush pardoned 19 people on Tuesday, including Isaac Robert Toussie of Brooklyn, N.Y., who had been convicted of making false statements to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and of mail fraud. On Wednesday, the White House issued an extraordinary statement saying the president was reversing his decision in Toussie's case.

White House press secretary Dana Perino said the new decision was "based on information that has subsequently come to light," including on the extent and nature of Toussie's prior criminal offenses. She also said that neither the White House counsel's office nor the president had been aware of a political contribution by Toussie's father that "might create an appearance of impropriety."

"Given that, this was the prudent thing to do," she said.

The new information came to the White House's attention from news reports, Perino said.

A story in the New York Daily News said Toussie's father, Robert, donated $28,500 to the national Republican Party in April. It came just months before Toussie's pardon petition, the newspaper said.

The counsel's office generally doesn't include vetting of political contributions in its reviews on such matters, as that would be "highly inappropriate on many levels," she said. The White House decision on Toussie had come without a recommendation from the pardon attorney, Ronald L. Rodgers, as Toussie's request for a pardon came less than five years after completion of his sentence, so that eliminated another step in the review process.

The Justice Department advises the president on who qualifies for pardons. Only people who have waited five years after their conviction or release from prison can apply for a pardon under the department's guidelines. Criminals are required to begin serving time, or otherwise exhaust any appeals, before they can be considered for sentence commutation.
Story continues below

But the president can forgive people outside that process if he chooses. Under the Constitution, the president's power to issue pardons is absolute and cannot be overruled _ meaning he can forgive anyone he wants, at any time.

Perino said she did not know of another instance of a pardon reversal in "recent memory," but that the White House couldn't say for sure it never had happened before.

"The counsel to the president reviewed the application and believed, based on the information known to him at the time, that it was a meritorious application," she said. Bush now believes the case should rest with the pardon attorney.

The Daily News story on Wednesday, and another in Newsday and on blogs, shed light on Toussie's record. He pleaded guilty for lying to HUD and mail fraud, admitting that he falsified finances of prospective homebuyers seeking HUD mortgages. He was sentenced to five months in prison and five months' house arrest, a $10,000 fine and no restitution, the Daily News reported.

In another case, Toussie pleaded guilty to having a friend send his local county a letter that falsely inflated property values.

The Daily News also located a lawyer representing hundreds of ex-customers who have sued Toussie in federal court, accusing him of luring poor, minority homebuyers into buying overpriced homes with mortgages that had hidden costs.

The attorney, Peter E. Seidman, said Wednesday that news of the pardon was "gut wrenching for his clients" and left him "baffled."

"I am glad somebody at the White House woke up," he said in an interview.

Maxine D. Wilson, 42, bought one of Toussie's homes on Long Island in 1996. She later sued Toussie, claiming the house started to fall apart after she moved in in 1997. She said she was shocked when she learned Bush was going to pardon Toussie.

"I was angry at how money, power and influence seemed to trump justice," she said. But on Wednesday, she said, "I feel today that somebody paid attention. Somebody stepped back and made us feel equal."

Federal Election Commission records show a number of donations to Republicans this year by Robert Toussie and by a Laura Toussie who lists the same address. Between them, they gave $4,600 to Minnesota GOP Sen. Norm Coleman and another $4,600 to Oregon Republican Sen. Gordon Smith, all on Oct. 15. Coleman is locked in a still-undecided race against Democrat Al Franken, and Smith lost in November to Democrat Jeff Merkley.

On Oct. 30, Robert Toussie also gave $2,300 to GOP Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia.

His contribution to the Republican National Committee came as part of a fundraiser in March for GOP presidential candidate John McCain. Out of a total donation of $30,800 by Toussie, $2,300 went to McCain's campaign and $28,500 went to the RNC.

Doug Berman, a law professor at Ohio State University and a close follower of presidential clemency decisions, said the White House decision strikes him as unprecedented, but he said it's not inconceivable that it had happened in the past.

"It's, at best, embarrassing. At worst, it's an extraordinary example of this White House's ability to bollox up one bit of presidential authority that he clearly has," Berman said.

Bradford Berenson, an associate White House counsel during Bush's first term and Isaac Toussie's lawyer, said in a statement that his client remained confident the pardon attorney would grant his request.

"Isaac Toussie is deeply grateful that both the counsel to the president and the president himself found Mr. Toussie's pardon application to have sufficient merit to be granted," Berenson said. "Mr. Toussie looks forward to the pardon attorney's expeditious review of the application."

Berenson declined to elaborate further on the case and its developments.

With the Toussie reversal, Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons and nine commutations. That's fewer than half as many as Presidents Clinton or Reagan issued during their two-term tenures.

___

Associated Press writer Deb Riechmann in Washington and Adam Goldman in New York contributed to this story.
Ok stick with me, the President has the ability to Pardon anyone at any time even technically himself except in the case of impeachment.

To note the day before yesterday Bush per AP's report did sign a formal document stating that he was pardoning Isaac Robert Toussie for his crimes of fraud re:housing scam.

And then yesterday, he then turns around and says, fooled you and reverses a pardon. I expect Mr Toussie to quickly sue and it will hit the Supreme Court because he was as of the 23rd pardoned of his crime, he's in jail now, he has nothing better to do. And it will hit the Supreme court. Did the Chimp in Chief even think of what this could frigging cause of the Supreme Court upholds the Presidents right to revoke Pardon.

Think what would happen of Obama suddenly revoking Scooter Libby's pardon, or for that matter any last minute Bush Pardon. Does he even vaguely understand what kind of shit-storm this could cause?

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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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No, I don't think W understands the potential shit-storm. W has an MBA, not a law degree, and was a consistent C student. A genius he is not.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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Mr Bean wrote:Did the Chimp in Chief even think of what this could frigging cause of the Supreme Court upholds the Presidents right to revoke Pardon.
Nope. He pardoned the guy, found out that he was a big ol' republican donor, and it would therefore look like he was "buying" the pardon and tried to hide it. Pure panic reaction, like he's stepped in dogshit and tried to clean it off but ends up getting it all over his clothes.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Ender »

This will certainly be an interesting ruling. It will make the line item veto decision look like nothing in terms of how it could affect presidential power. I'm inclined to guess that they will rule that he can't, to try and keep the status quo in terms of the constitution though.

Though I have to say, my favorite part of this story is that he threw the guy back in the slammer on Christmas Eve. That's a cartoon level of evil right there.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Bilbo »

Ender wrote:This will certainly be an interesting ruling. It will make the line item veto decision look like nothing in terms of how it could affect presidential power. I'm inclined to guess that they will rule that he can't, to try and keep the status quo in terms of the constitution though.

Though I have to say, my favorite part of this story is that he threw the guy back in the slammer on Christmas Eve. That's a cartoon level of evil right there.
My guess is that the USSC will not chose to rule even if it makes it to them. If forced to rule they will come up with some line that a President can chose to withdraw a pardon he himself signed within a certain amount of time if new information comes to light.

Obama and the Democrats wont dare to cross the line of him trying to revoke Bush pardons because it would set a precendent that would come back to bite him and frankly end of term criminal pardons are small potatoes.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

the question then is, if Bush Pardons the rest of his gang of thieves can Obama revoke them?
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:the question then is, if Bush Pardons the rest of his gang of thieves can Obama revoke them?
Or could Bush rescind pardons of previous administrations, or would that be an ex post facto thing?
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Enigma »

Gandalf wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:the question then is, if Bush Pardons the rest of his gang of thieves can Obama revoke them?
Or could Bush rescind pardons of previous administrations, or would that be an ex post facto thing?
The article states that the pardons cannot be overruled. But does that mean that noone else including future presidents?
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Kitsune »

Has a president ever revoked a governor's pardon?
I think Bush is effectively stating "Ooops, never did" it in effect
A bit different than revoking a pardon by someone else
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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I think that the end-game here is that the pardon will be "reinstated", after the "surprising" reaction from Toussie's lawyers, who will demand it. I put words in quotes because this all strikes me as a good way to legitimize having pardoned him in the first place. In other words, I'm suggesting that from the moment it was decided that Toussie was to be pardoned, they knew about his contributions, and knew that, should they come to light, it would look bad for President Bush's legacy (of failure). Therefore, they planned to reveal the contributions themselves, then "revoke" the pardon (which they can't do) when it looked as though it was tainted by bribe money, and then grudgingly reinstate it once it became clear that they couldn't really revoke that pardon.

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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Durandal »

The Supreme Court will almost certainly not touch this specific issue. They'll find some way to basically say that the pardon was never actually granted due to a clerical issue, like the paperwork not being completely filed by the time Bush had decided to revoke the pardon.

If they can't find some reason to come to that conclusion, then it gets interesting. But rest assured, they'll be checking for uncrossed t's and undotted i's in the paperwork.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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Durandal wrote:The Supreme Court will almost certainly not touch this specific issue. They'll find some way to basically say that the pardon was never actually granted due to a clerical issue, like the paperwork not being completely filed by the time Bush had decided to revoke the pardon.

If they can't find some reason to come to that conclusion, then it gets interesting. But rest assured, they'll be checking for uncrossed t's and undotted i's in the paperwork.
That’s what I’m thinking. he constitution only says the president can give pardons, not how they are enacted. Enaction is a matter of non constitutional federal laws and those are bound to require many layers of paperwork that can be full of holes.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Jadeite »

SCRawl wrote:I think that the end-game here is that the pardon will be "reinstated", after the "surprising" reaction from Toussie's lawyers, who will demand it. I put words in quotes because this all strikes me as a good way to legitimize having pardoned him in the first place. In other words, I'm suggesting that from the moment it was decided that Toussie was to be pardoned, they knew about his contributions, and knew that, should they come to light, it would look bad for President Bush's legacy (of failure). Therefore, they planned to reveal the contributions themselves, then "revoke" the pardon (which they can't do) when it looked as though it was tainted by bribe money, and then grudgingly reinstate it once it became clear that they couldn't really revoke that pardon.

Yes, I'm a suspicious person by nature.
That's a pretty retarded theory, to be honest. Its an incredibly similar mode of thinking to the usual conspiracy theory bullshit, just less fantastic of a premise.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Durandal wrote:The Supreme Court will almost certainly not touch this specific issue. They'll find some way to basically say that the pardon was never actually granted due to a clerical issue, like the paperwork not being completely filed by the time Bush had decided to revoke the pardon.

If they can't find some reason to come to that conclusion, then it gets interesting. But rest assured, they'll be checking for uncrossed t's and undotted i's in the paperwork.
Its also hwo this is technically occuring. What happened is not that Bush literally wrote out an equivalent of "no he isn't actually pardoned" rather he sent to the US Pardon Attorney a ntoice that he shoudl not execute the pardon of this guy. In other words the pardon Bush signed was never actually executed and Bush sent notice not to execute the action therefore he never "actually" pardoned the guy. I rather suspect that the court would simply decline to hear the case or would agree with the idea that since the aprdon was never executed that there was no "overturning" of a pardon.

If they did rule that the pardon was granted with Bush' signature then the guy woudl have to go free on 5th amendment grounds. Since a person cannot be twice held liable for the same crime if they are pardoned then re-imprisoned this would appear to constitute a violation of that right.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Why exactly did Bush even give a pardon to this guy in the first place? He is just some random bozo, and from the article there didn't seem to be any reason to think he was innocent. What possible benefit can there be to giving a pardon to this guy?
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, looks like Bush managed to fit in at least one more Constitutional fuck-up before his term runs out. :banghead:
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by General Zod »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why exactly did Bush even give a pardon to this guy in the first place? He is just some random bozo, and from the article there didn't seem to be any reason to think he was innocent. What possible benefit can there be to giving a pardon to this guy?
Presidential pardons can be given to anyone as long as they go through the application process, so it's not like they're given just to high profile incidents or cases where someone was wrongfully accused. (Besides which, accepting a pardon basically means admitting that you were guilty of something that requires one in the first place.)
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

What about Carter and Dr. Mudd?
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by SCRawl »

Jadeite wrote:That's a pretty retarded theory, to be honest. Its an incredibly similar mode of thinking to the usual conspiracy theory bullshit, just less fantastic of a premise.
You think it's that outlandish, after eight years with this crew at the helm? I'm not saying that my idea is correct, but I do think that it's consistent with the sort of manipulation of the truth to which we have become accustomed.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

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SCRawl wrote:You think it's that outlandish, after eight years with this crew at the helm? I'm not saying that my idea is correct, but I do think that it's consistent with the sort of manipulation of the truth to which we have become accustomed.
Errr, yeah.. The last eight years of governance of the US has pretty much embodied the maxim "never assign to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity".
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by raptor3x »

Apparently there a precedent for this situation.

http://pardonpower.com/2008/12/on-revoc ... rdons.html
"Experts said they knew of no other instance in which a presidential pardon had been revoked. They said it was not clear whether Bush was legally allowed to do so." - Chicago Tribune, December 25, 2008

One can hardly blame the Tribune for printing this statement. Lord knows countless other news agencies are doing the same thing today. There were deadlines to meet. There are plenty of people willing to talk about pardons, and even more willing to talk about the president! But there are very few people who have actually researched and written on the pardon power and deserve the title "expert." My forthcoming book dedicates considerable space to the topic of pardons that have been revoked. Here are just a few notes to share on the topic. This is not the appropriate forum to be comprehensive:

Ulysses S. Grant's first clemency decision, on his third day in office, was to revoke two pardons granted by Andrew Johnson. Both men challenged Grant's power to do so, and lost their case in federal court. A central passage in a judicial opinion read:

If the president can arrest the mission of the messenger went the messenger has departed but ten feet from the door of the presidential mansion, he can arrest such mission at any time before the messenger delivers the pardon to the warden of the prison.

The fact that "the president" - in this case - meant two different presidents (Johnson and Grant), and the fact that - in this case - the warden had actually received the pardons but simply stuck them in his desk for a while, did not matter. The pardons had not actually been placed in the hands of Moses and Jacob DePuy, so the two men stayed in prison and were pardoned (by Grant) later.

Grant also revoked the pardon of James F. Martin, but the New York Times, reported that the official order from the State Department reached the U.S. Marshal in Massachusetts "too late." That is to say, Martin had accepted his pardon and had exited the premises. No effort was made to put him back.

Finally Grant revoked the pardon of Richard C. Enright, who was sentenced to 18 months in prison and fined $2,500 for conspiracy to defraud the government. Johnson granted a full pardon 12 months into the sentence but, before the pardon could reach Enright's hands, Grant revoked it. Enright had to cool his heels another 8 months.

In a 1975 article for Case and Commentary, distinguished attorney Melvin H. Belli referred to an instance in 1969 when the President "managed to head off a pardon granted by the previous President." According to Belli, a telegram was sent to "waylay" the pardon "just before it was delivered into the hands of the intended receivers."

Of course, in 2001, there was some speculation that President Bush might revoke the pardon of Marc Rich. To be sure, behind the scenes, there was some consideration of precedent and case law that emerged during the Grant administration. But, in 2001, there was a different mindset about the importance of receiving a pardon. Which is to say, the importance of receiving a pardon was no longer considered a critical factor in assessing its validity (Henry Flipper did not receive his pardon. He was dead). While this approach certainly has its logic, it does raise the interesting question: where does the life of a pardon begin? Bush might argue that no individual clemency warrant was signed for Isaac Robert Toussie. Critics may say the appearance of Toussie's name on a "master warrant" is enough. It may simply take the President saying, "Toussie is pardoned." The problem is that there is a clear void where a theory once hung around.

Can George Bush revoke the pardon of Mr. Toussie? There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever, in my mind, that he can - "can" here means, he can do it and withstand a legal challenge.

Should George Bush revoke his own pardon? Probably not. Instead of using this fisasco as a chance to throw mud at people below him, Bush should instead use it as an opportunity to recognize that, when presidents are stingy with pardons and leave thousands of applicants high and dry, wealth, influence and access are much more likely to wiggle their way through the cracks and infect clemency decisions.

The solution is to staff and fund the Office of the Pardon Attorney more generously and grant more pardons on a regular basis, encouraging the idea that applications will receive a fair shake and reducing perceptions that one has to end-round the process to have even the proverbial snowball's chance.
Maybe Bush will be trying to outdo all the stupid things other horrible presidents did in order secure the "Worst President Ever" title.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by The Dark »

Raptor's article states the precedent fairly well. From reading a couple lawyers' analyses (edit: the better one is here), it seems that there are four steps in the pardon process once the decision is made:
1. The President makes the decision to pardon
2. The pardon is written out, signed, and sealed
3. The pardon is delivered to the beneficiary
4. The pardon is accepted by the beneficiary

Until all four steps occur, the pardon is not official. In this case, only the first step (notification of intent to pardon) had occurred. Since no pardon was signed, sealed, or delivered, it is not an irrevocable action.
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Mr Bean »

The Dark wrote:Raptor's article states the precedent fairly well. From reading a couple lawyers' analyses (edit: the better one is here), it seems that there are four steps in the pardon process once the decision is made:
1. The President makes the decision to pardon
2. The pardon is written out, signed, and sealed
3. The pardon is delivered to the beneficiary
4. The pardon is accepted by the beneficiary

Until all four steps occur, the pardon is not official. In this case, only the first step (notification of intent to pardon) had occurred. Since no pardon was signed, sealed, or delivered, it is not an irrevocable action.
Three things
First the Pardon was signed he did that the day before, in fact we have him on tape(Gotta love the 24/7 media) doing the whole signing bit to pardon these folks.

Second, there is precedent to pardon dead people, those pardon's were deemed legal, they were not delivered to the beneficiary just sort of announced.

Third there is precedent as raptor3x posted, I've never even heard of Grant doing that and that's fing bizarre. The fact that no one challenged Grant back then did create precedence. So there is in fact hope at the end of the tunnel because now Obama can undo all of Bush's pardon's if he wants to be a dick, please on please undo the Scooter Libby pardon.

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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Knife »

Mr Bean wrote:
Second, there is precedent to pardon dead people, those pardon's were deemed legal, they were not delivered to the beneficiary just sort of announced.
This is a non starter. A pardon for a dead guy just clears the record and does nothing for the dead guy. Not a pardon per say, rather a clerical move.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Bush... Revokes Pardon??!?!

Post by Kitsune »

Knife wrote:This is a non starter. A pardon for a dead guy just clears the record and does nothing for the dead guy. Not a pardon per say, rather a clerical move.
Not that I would recommend it but Bush could pardon Timothy McVay and what would it really do?
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
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