Sub-megaton Photon Torps.

[BLACKSUN2000]

I'm currently in a debate and the yield of photon torps has come up. Naturally some people are wanking high numbers but I seem to recall that there were various canon examples that photon torps were actually sub-megaton and low megatons tops.

I know that 64 megatons is the accepted yield...well before the innefficiency and omnidirectional blast is taken into consideration. But I need to know some of the episodes or movies where the low yields are shown.

If anyone could help I would be much obliged.

[Batman]

Actually, 64MT is from the by now totally noncanon TNG TM and even THERE that yield is never actually stated.
If you want to be cruel, ST V, where a photorp casing dropped from orbit with no payload whatsoever would have done massively more damage than what we saw.
TNG's 'Pegasus'. Dialogue, but works out to about 450KT.
ST VI. Cannonball torpedoes.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Thanks bats, i'll let 'em have it, one imperial smackdown coming up...

If you find any other examples please post it.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Sorry for the doublepost...but wasn't there evidence that the photorp used at the end of TNG:"Skin of Evil" was pretty low?

Also the DS9:"The Die Is Cast" wasn't it shown that the combined fleet effort was a sub-megaton attack?

[Vympel]

TNG episode "Genesis" - photon torpedoes are being test fired with 11% greater yield than normal manage to do nothing more than fragment tiny asteroids that are little bigger than the torpedoes themselves.









And moving this to ST vs SW, since its about a debate.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually, 64MT is from the by now totally noncanon TNG TM and even THERE that yield is never actually stated.
If you want to be cruel, ST V, where a photorp casing dropped from orbit with no payload whatsoever would have done massively more damage than what we saw.
TNG's 'Pegasus'. Dialogue, but works out to about 450KT.
ST VI. Cannonball torpedoes.

Yeah, that example is cruel alright. You can take Batman's retarded advice and use that STV example, and then be viewed as an idiot.

Kirk obviously didn't want to die. Sulu obviously didn't want to kill Kirk. We know that photon torpedoes can be controlled. As Batman points out the torpedo did less damage then had it simply be dropped from orbit. Thus, it was obviously slowed down.

[Batman]

Kirk obviously didn't want to die. Sulu obviously didn't want to kill Kirk. We know that photon torpedoes can be controlled. As Batman points out the torpedo did less damage then had it simply be dropped from orbit. Thus, it was obviously slowed down.

Um-no.There's exactly ZERO evidence for them going out of their way to reduce torpedo firepower (I happen to agree with your reasoning on WHY they would do so but there's no actual EVIDENCE for that.) For all we know Kirk was perfectly happy to die if that's what it took. He has been on numerous occasions before afterall.Not that there's an actual established yield for TOS photorps to begin with.

[Azron_Stoma]

I think a counter to the "low yield" BS excuse for the various lower end Torpedo hits is that, in many cases, if not every case, Phasers would have been more than sufficient to acheive the observed results, without wasting torpedo ammunition.

Voyager's "Alliances" shows not one, not two, but three photon torpedoes hit a Kazon ship, in atmosphere, hovering 2-3 stories over a city, and the blasts were positively tiny.

This was of course where Voyager's torpedo cache was rather limited, and replacing them wasn't so simple as just heading over to the nearest starbase.

so why fire low yield torpedoes x 3 when, under their claims, a few phaser hits would have sufficed.

[Captain Seafort]

Um-no.There's exactly ZERO evidence for them going out of their way to reduce torpedo firepower

Yes there is. From the script:

KIRK
(into his communicator)
Kirk to Enterprise. Listen carefully...

*Sybok attacks the alien*

KIRK
(into his communicator;
desperate)
Enterprise... are you ready?

239 INT. ENTERPRISE - BRIDGE 239

SULU
In firing position. Torpedo armed.

CHEKOV
But Captain, we're firing directly
on your position.

KIRK'S VOICE
Send it down Mister Chekov -- now!

We never heard what exactly Kirk was telling them to do, but "listen carefully" suggests that it was a lot more complicated than simply ordering a torpedo strike, such as removing the antimatter and using the torp as a KE weapon at less than terminal velocity to avoid incinerating Kirk and co.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hasn’t it been mentioned more then once that anti matter is only loaded into the torpedoes just before they fire them? If so, that’d provide a ready mechanize by which to vary yield, and different models of torpedo could easily have different max capacities.

[Batman]

Um-no.There's exactly ZERO evidence for them going out of their way to reduce torpedo firepower

Yes there is. From the script:

Which ISN'T canon.

We never heard what exactly Kirk was telling them to do, but "listen carefully" suggests that it was a lot more complicated than simply ordering a torpedo strike,

Suggests and SOMEHOW.

such as removing the antimatter and using the torp as a KE weapon at less than terminal velocity to avoid incinerating Kirk and co.

Which, alas, was never ever mentioned in the actual movie. For all we know Kirk told them about the eating habits of his diabetic beagle.

[Batman]

I'm not debating that photorps are dial-a-yield, we already know that, I'm not even debating that the ST V torpedo might have been a deliberate low yield one (as far as I'm concerned that hit NEVER HAPPENED because everything past the camping trip was a hallucination) but IF it was a genuine photon torpedo impact, UNTIL we determine it was a deliberate pathetic yield one, it STANDS as a pathetic yield one.

[Vympel]

Yeah, that example is cruel alright. You can take Batman's retarded advice and use that STV example, and then be viewed as an idiot.

Kirk obviously didn't want to die. Sulu obviously didn't want to kill Kirk. We know that photon torpedoes can be controlled. As Batman points out the torpedo did less damage then had it simply be dropped from orbit. Thus, it was obviously slowed down.

I think the tactics of debate are relevant in this case. If some fuckwit appeals to Slave I's tail guns on the AotC platform as an upper limit on their firepower, the ST5 torpedo yield is very helpful - it helps to throw their own shit back in their faces and make people see their hypocrisy.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Update on the Debate:

After presenting the Evidence that Vympel and Bats so kindly donated, the trektard ran off with his tail between his legs.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Which ISN'T canon.

You realize that the script made it into the movie, right? Kirk does say "Listen carefully".

Which, alas, was never ever mentioned in the actual movie. For all we know Kirk told them about the eating habits of his diabetic beagle.

Yet, they weren't killed. You even said the casing simply falling from orbit should have done more damage. What does occams razor tell you? That torpedoes are so weak that they bend the laws of physics or that the crew did something.

I'm not debating that photorps are dial-a-yield, we already know that, I'm not even debating that the ST V torpedo might have been a deliberate low yield one (as far as I'm concerned that hit NEVER HAPPENED because everything past the camping trip was a hallucination) but IF it was a genuine photon torpedo impact, UNTIL we determine it was a deliberate pathetic yield one, it STANDS as a pathetic yield one.

Unconvincing. When you do so you completely ignore on screen evidence of other torpedo impacts. Even simple fireball impacts off the hulls of starships are larger than what we got out of STV. Your own opinion on what should have happened if the torpedo were dropped also spits in the face of your argument here.

I think the tactics of debate are relevant in this case. If some fuckwit appeals to Slave I's tail guns on the AotC platform as an upper limit on their firepower, the ST5 torpedo yield is very helpful - it helps to throw their own shit back in their faces and make people see their hypocrisy.

Why are they relevant in this case. The OP asked for examples of low yield torpedo firepower. He did not mention that his opponents were attempting to use the AOTC example as proof that SW weapons are inferior. I mean if they are trying to make that claim then yeah shove STV down their throat.

I find it annoying when people use poor dishonest arguments in STvsSW debates when there is a plethora of information and honest examples. TNG "Pegasus" is probably the best example you can get because it involves a situation where they would want to deliver as much firepower as possible in the shortest amount of time.

[Vympel]

Why are they relevant in this case.

Poor wording. What I meant was that STV is only useful as a tactical measure in response to another's stupidity.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Where's a good forum for observing trektards in their natural habitat, they seem to get picked off by the predators who lurk this forum. Could someone please help me in my quest to observe these evolutionary throwbacks?

As per the thread topic:
what about First Contact? We see a bunch of photorps hit the cube and they barely fizzle! Adaption or not, an antimatter reaction is still going make shit happen unless they're pathetically weak!

[Aaron]

Try SFJ.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Star Fleet Jedi...

Yeah if you wan't to find irrideemable trektards, that's one of THE places to go.

WARNING: The stupid burns.

[Norade]

Oh fuck, a few minutes and I nearly signed up. Then I realized that you can't change people like that and seeing many names from this site so hated there I gave up on even trying... That is truly a scary place even for the internet.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh fuck, a few minutes and I nearly signed up. Then I realized that you can't change people like that and seeing many names from this site so hated there I gave up on even trying... That is truly a scary place even for the internet.

What did you see over there that was so scary?

[Norade]

Oh fuck, a few minutes and I nearly signed up. Then I realized that you can't change people like that and seeing many names from this site so hated there I gave up on even trying... That is truly a scary place even for the internet.

What did you see over there that was so scary?

Mainly the way they treat cannon, seem to think that Mike and Curtis worked on the ICS together to win the debate so they can throw it out when debating, they way they have a hate out for generally respected members of this board... It's more of the sort of scary that is funny to make an over exaggerated one-off post about than anything though.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Mainly the way they treat cannon, seem to think that Mike and Curtis worked on the ICS together to win the debate so they can throw it out when debating, they way they have a hate out for generally respected members of this board... It's more of the sort of scary that is funny to make an over exaggerated one-off post about than anything though.

Yeah, they use remarks by Lucas as their foundation for their stance on Star Wars canon. As for their opinions on Mike and Curtis, and other members of this board it is because Star Trek is personal to them and because it is personal they'll do whatever they can to get what appears to be the upperhand. The other reason is probably because from their point of view they have been treated poorly by Mike and other members of this board. Combine those two and the only result you get is hate.

As for their arguments. Those type of arguments aren't reserved just for trekkies. I've seen warsies make equally absurd arguments. One warsie on SB once argued that a group of space flight capable F-22s with their standard armament could take down the Enterprise E. I wish I could remember his handle, but he held that belief because he was passionate in his dislike for Trek.

[lord Martiya]

One warsie on SB once argued that a group of space flight capable F-22s with their standard armament could take down the Enterprise E.

But he's right: seeing them attacking, the helm officer will laugh so hard that he'll crash the ship by accident.

[BLACKSUN2000]

Yeah, they use remarks by Lucas as their foundation for their stance on Star Wars canon.

Which is pretty stupid for numerous reasons.

As for their opinions on Mike and Curtis, and other members of this board it is because Star Trek is personal to them and because it is personal they'll do whatever they can to get what appears to be the upperhand.

WTF? So they'll stoop so low as to bash Saxton and lie about his numbers just because they want Trek to win at all costs? Sad.


As for the arguments I've seen my share of incredibly stupid comments from both sides, however the trektard arguments usually take the cake.

Don't ask about the ones I have heard they aren't pretty.