Trekkie Wall o' Text

[Darth Wong]

I saw this in my inbox today:

E-Mail: : Rodrigo Diaz <f_mcc@hotmail.com>
Subject: Unaddressed issues...
Date: 29 Sep 2009 10:42:53 -0000
IP Address: 69.171.160.222

Well, to start. Star Trek technology evolved farther than photon and quantum torpedoes. (Transphasic torpedeos, VOY "Endgame"), which were capable of piercing even a Borg Cube's shields and most of its surface and internal area prior to detonating in a vital area, thereby bypassing the weakness of quantum torpedoes against a Star Destroyer's hull (purported by SW canon) to be primarily composed of neutronium, which is a substance categorically proven to have 0% possibility of existence outside of the core of a Neutron Star. Also, take into account that the upper limit of Star Trek weapons and superluminal velocity must be raised due to Ambassador Spock's accidental travel back to 2258 from 2387. In 2387, he learned of Montgomery Scott's breakthrough in transwarp travel as well as beaming onto a vessel while in transit through these extreme velocities (Star Trek 2009) and the fact that Nero's vessel possessed advanced Romulan and Borg technology which was analyzed in depth by the Enterprise NCC-1701's scans and Spock's meld with an unconscious Romulan engineer, and would undoubtedly be studied and reverse-engineered by the UFP Starfleet. The philosophy of stricly peace-based mentality would also no doubt be re-evaluated, as the Federation lost Vulcan to an assault by Nero using a planetary drill and Red Matter, which created a singularity inside the planet, swallowing it whole, and he intended to do the same to Earth and every other Federation-held planet. Add to this, the aforementioned transphasic torpedoes (which will still be introduced into ST canon, even in the the altered timeline, since Voyager' launch and mission were unaffected by events prior, or even if they were, the Voyager would be EVEN MORE outfitted for violent encounters), transwarp drive (which would allow INFINITE velocity (VOY, "Threshold") and grant the UFP the capacity to strike Imperial space at will from any distance, as well as thoroughly outpace ANY of their fastest ships, and, yes, the Trilithium Weapon (ST: Generations) which can halt all nuclear fusion within a star. Transwarp to Coruscant, detonate a Red Matter or Trilithium warhead within its sun, and the Empire falls. United Federation of Planets wins. And, if you don't believe the Federation is capable of such action, I suggest you watch ST: Deep Space Nine, especially toward the end of the series. The Federation became capable of actions that were before considered "taboo" against the Dominion, who were, in essense, far more of an intimidating force than an "Empire" from a distant galaxy, who would have severe logistical issues with delivering troops, supplies, and equipment once the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, et al develop technology comparable to an Interdictor-Class warship, pull the Imperials out of their vaunted "hyperspace", and annihilate them with aforementioned weapons. If they jump into the Delta Quadrant, they can meet the Borg and be even more easily dispatched. Gamma Quadrant? The Dominion have comparable resources and military tactics to easily oppose and drive them out, along with a connection to the Federation by way of the Bajoran Womrhole. To sum all of this up......you are a fool. Star Trek is based off of true science. Star Wars is based off of fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science. Fight your losing battle. You have been owned.

I actually haven't gotten one of these E-mails in a while. It's nice to know that this sort of person never really changes.

Anyway, I am putting it here for your collective amusement. I don't intend to bother replying to the idiot.

[Shroom Man 777]

I actually think that's too silly to be genuine, particuarly with "fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science".

I mean, if I had the time to waste and the will to do so, I could make something no less silly than that wall of text and email it to you or post it here or wherever and make all the debater dudes start jumping over each other in spending their time uselessly disassembling my nonsensical nonsense, and I'd have lulz over having my nonsensical nonsense being treated seriously by a group of people with an established reputation of being totally into sci-fi debates (that thus makes them ripe for baiting and trolling?).

[Darth Wong]

I actually think that's too silly to be genuine, particuarly with "fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science".

Why? I've run into people face-to-face who would say stuff like that.

[Serafina]

Hm, let' see:

-mixing Old-ST and new ST
-"neutronium is impossible"...let's just forget about, well...every piece of ST-tech (or generally Sci-Fi)
-"It can pierce a thin structure, therefore, it can pierce a solid hull of armor"
-Voyager is unaffected because it is hundreds of years after radical changes...ok
-taking Treshold seriously. Infinite velocity that brings you three days away kicks ass!
-taking out Coruscan will destroy the Empire because...oh, i guess no reason
-The Dominion is more dangerous than the Empire - again, no reason needed
-Good old reverse engineering - of Interdictors, that is. Which will somehow destroy the Empires supply line.

Star Trek is based off of true science. Star Wars is based off of fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science.

At least, some things i never heard before - but then again, i do not have that much experience with SWvsST.

I mean, if I had the time to waste and the will to do so, I could make something no less silly than that wall of text and email it to you or post it here or wherever and make all the debater dudes start jumping over each other in spending their time uselessly disassembling my nonsensical nonsense, and I'd have lulz over having my nonsensical nonsense being treated seriously by a group of people with an established reputation of being totally into sci-fi debates (that thus makes them ripe for baiting and trolling?).

Nah...you could do something even sillier if you wanted to

[Peptuck]

Well, to start. Star Trek technology evolved farther than photon and quantum torpedoes. (Transphasic torpedeos, VOY "Endgame"), which were capable of piercing even a Borg Cube's shields and most of its surface and internal area prior to detonating in a vital area, thereby bypassing the weakness of quantum torpedoes against a Star Destroyer's hull (purported by SW canon) to be primarily composed of neutronium, which is a substance categorically proven to have 0% possibility of existence outside of the core of a Neutron Star.

Aside from the fact that there's no evidence a Star Destroyer's hull is made of neutronium, where does he get the idea that a transphasic torpedo has the yeilds to do damage to a star Destroyer, let alone has the capacity to penetrate durasteel plating or particle shielding, or the fact that Voyager's transphasic torps are a rarity that the entire combined science of all of Starfleet couldn't develop?

Also, take into account that the upper limit of Star Trek weapons and superluminal velocity must be raised due to Ambassador Spock's accidental travel back to 2258 from 2387. In 2387, he learned of Montgomery Scott's breakthrough in transwarp travel as well as beaming onto a vessel while in transit through these extreme velocities (Star Trek 2009)

Aside from the glaring issue of copletely different continuities, was Scotty's device ever explictly identified as transwarp? I don't remember it being referred to as such. It's faster than demonstrable warp drives in TNG, DS9, or VOY, but not to the degree of hyperdrives.

In either case, beaming onto a ship traveling at warp speed is still difficult and unreliable.

and the fact that Nero's vessel possessed advanced Romulan and Borg technology which was analyzed in depth by the Enterprise NCC-1701's scans

No evidence of this, or evidence that the "advanced" technology possessed by Nero's ship would even begin to be understood by scientists more than a century behind.

and Spock's meld with an unconscious Romulan engineer, and would undoubtedly be studied and reverse-engineered by the UFP Starfleet.

See above.

The philosophy of stricly peace-based mentality would also no doubt be re-evaluated, as the Federation lost Vulcan to an assault by Nero using a planetary drill and Red Matter, which created a singularity inside the planet, swallowing it whole, and he intended to do the same to Earth and every other Federation-held planet.

No, that just proves they're complete retards.

Add to this, the aforementioned transphasic torpedoes (which will still be introduced into ST canon, even in the the altered timeline, since Voyager' launch and mission were unaffected by events prior, or even if they were, the Voyager would be EVEN MORE outfitted for violent encounters),

Because....you say they'll be developed.

Protip: when dealing with an alternate timeline, nothing that passed before is necessarily set.

transwarp drive (which would allow INFINITE velocity (VOY, "Threshold")

Oh dear Buddha you did not just try to bring up Threshold and it's ultimately retarded and VERY FLAWED transwarp drive.

and grant the UFP the capacity to strike Imperial space at will from any distance, as well as thoroughly outpace ANY of their fastest ships,

I can almost see the wanking on his end. It's....not a pleasant sight.

the Trilithium Weapon (ST: Generations) which can halt all nuclear fusion within a star.

Which only Doctor Sorhan knew how to make and oh hey, there he just exploded and is dead and now that wonderful weapons technology is lost forever.

Transwarp to Coruscant, detonate a Red Matter or Trilithium warhead within its sun, and the Empire falls.

Leaving out the fact that the Federation doesn't have access to transwarp because they suck at engineering it, and leaving out the fact that red matter has never been shown to have that effect on a star, how is this going to stop Imperial fleets from ravaging Federation worlds, or otherwise effect the millions of planets the Empire controls?

And, if you don't believe the Federation is capable of such action, I suggest you watch ST: Deep Space Nine, especially toward the end of the series. The Federation became capable of actions that were before considered "taboo" against the Dominion,

You mean they became vaguely competent and started edging toward ruthlessness territory the Empire had already been to, abandoned, and moved on from a long while ago.

who were, in essense, far more of an intimidating force than an "Empire" from a distant galaxy, who would have severe logistical issues with delivering troops, supplies, and equipment once the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, et al develop technology comparable to an Interdictor-Class warship, pull the Imperials out of their vaunted "hyperspace", and annihilate them with aforementioned weapons.

wankwankwankwank

If they jump into the Delta Quadrant, they can meet the Borg and be even more easily dispatched.

wankwankwankwank

The Borg are retarded space zombies whose whole schtick of adaptation was defeated by (among other things) a solar flare, a holographic tommy gun, a knife, and a naked alien punching them to death.

Gamma Quadrant? The Dominion have comparable resources and military tactics to easily oppose and drive them out, along with a connection to the Federation by way of the Bajoran Womrhole.

wankwankwankwank

Evidence the Dominion have comparable abilities or technology to the Empire?

sum all of this up......you are a fool. Star Trek is based off of true science. Star Wars is based off of fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science. Fight your losing battle. You have been owned.

wankwankwankwank!

[Solauren]

Must have taken him a while to type all that one handed. Especially with his obvious learning impairments and intellectual problems.

[Stark]

It is interesting that the new movie fuels so much of it though. I would have expected this kind of nerd to be to outraged by the changes to canon to accept any of it.

[Formless]

(Transphasic torpedeos, VOY "Endgame"), which were capable of piercing even a Borg Cube's shields

Yes a BORG CUBE'S sheilds. Which phase, in other words blink on and off at a certain frequency. Star Destroyers don't have this weakness.

which is a substance categorically proven to have 0% possibility of existence outside of the core of a Neutron Star.

The force is impossible outside our little fictional universes too, but that has no bearing INSIDE the fictional universe. In fact, if we followed this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, the federation doesn't have warp drive because FTL is impossible in real life!

Also, in the TOS episode "The Doomsday Machine" the titular Doomsday Machine is armored with this supposedly impossible material. And as a side note, guess what? It took a crippled starship self destructing INSIDE the thing to destroy it because Phasers couldn't penetrate the outer hull!

Also, take into account that the upper limit of Star Trek weapons and superluminal velocity must be raised due to Ambassador Spock's accidental travel back to 2258 from 2387.

Continuity failure. Trek IX is considered a separate entity from the rest of trek canon, and therefor deserves its own VS discussion AWAY from all that transphasic torpedo crap.

and the fact that Nero's vessel possessed advanced Romulan and Borg technology which was analyzed in depth by the Enterprise NCC-1701's scans and Spock's meld with an unconscious Romulan engineer, and would undoubtedly be studied and reverse-engineered by the UFP Starfleet.

Did you not notice at the end of said film where Nero's ship (with Nero and everyone aboard who would have actually known how to duplicate the ship's technology going down with it) fell into a black hole? I'm afraid reverse engineering is a bit more complicated than "LOL, we have scans of his ship!"

The philosophy of stricly peace-based mentality would also no doubt be re-evaluated, as the Federation lost Vulcan to an assault by Nero using a planetary drill and Red Matter, which created a singularity inside the planet, swallowing it whole, and he intended to do the same to Earth and every other Federation-held planet.

I wouldn't be too sure-- the Federation never was truly pacifist, and in fact was quite military during the original series (you know, the one with Shatner?). This wasn't even the only time they'd lost a planet; see the already mentioned ep. "The Doomsday Machine." And yet, we still got TNG.

Add to this, the aforementioned transphasic torpedoes (which will still be introduced into ST canon, even in the the altered timeline, since Voyager' launch and mission were unaffected by events prior, or even if they were, the Voyager would be EVEN MORE outfitted for violent encounters)

Now you're just talking out of your ass. How do you know Voyager will even be built, let alone launched? And even if it is, how do you know the Caretaker will bring them to the delta quadrant like in the original timeline? The farther back an alteration to the timeline, the more drastic the changes. This alteration is over a century before Voyager, ergo you can't make assumptions like these!

transwarp drive (which would allow INFINITE velocity (VOY, "Threshold")

Wow, just wow. Um, guy, I hate to break it to you, but even your fellow trekkies are now pointing and laughing at you. You just don't mention that episode if you want to be taken seriously. Its practically non-canon, and even if we aren't going to dismiss it as a mass hallucination of some sort the drive shown in that episode has a little known glitch that mutates its users into frog-people. Its not exactly an ideal engine for a front line battle ship.

and, yes, the Trilithium Weapon (ST: Generations) which can halt all nuclear fusion within a star. Transwarp to Coruscant, detonate a Red Matter or Trilithium warhead within its sun, and the Empire falls.

More likely series of events:

Star Fleet vessel spends the next fifty years with NO transwarp trying to get to Coruscant in the first place

Comes out of warp on the edge of the system

Gets torn to shreds by more turbolasers than the ship's captain has ever seen seen in one place because Coruscant is that fucking well defended

Seriously, you act as if the Empire were the Borg circa the final ep. of voyager. I hate to tell you this (well, not really) but you can't always rely on shitty writing to save your favored characters. Even if your plan went off completely without a hitch, in Star Wars canon the Empire kept on fighting loooooooooonnnnnng after Coruscant fell to the rebels and the emperor died. Because I have news for you, it takes much more than that to halt the kind of political momentum of a proper Empire. All this plan would do, assuming for a moment it worked as planned, is make the Empire fucking pissed that you would use a superweapon inside its territory. Remember the Death Star? Remember how much of a leg-up the destruction of Alderran gave the Rebel cause? Imagine how unified and royally pissed the Empire will be if/when you blow up their capital. Suddenly you've given them all the justification they need for sending the Death Star to blow the shit out of Earth. Nice going there, genius.

I suggest you watch ST: Deep Space Nine,

Oh, you mean the one where they prove their FTL is so slow they need a wormhole just to get between two quadrants of the galaxy? Hell, before that series you might have been able to justify giving the Federation's warp drive a much higher top speed. Might.

The Federation became capable of actions that were before considered "taboo" against the Dominion, who were, in essense, far more of an intimidating force than an "Empire" from a distant galaxy,

... because you say so.

who would have severe logistical issues with delivering troops, supplies, and equipment once the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, et al develop technology comparable to an Interdictor-Class warship, pull the Imperials out of their vaunted "hyperspace", and annihilate them with aforementioned weapons.

Translation: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNK!

Show me even one piece of evidence that the federation can do any of the things you claim they can, and I will be astonished. Fortunately I know you can't, so I'm not worried.

Star Trek is based off of true science.

Riiiiiigghhhht. Because golden shape shifting people, "cracked' event horizons, time travel, and telepathic Vulcans are "true science." You sir are delusional, pathetic, and stupider than my cat. The ownage is on you, fool.

[spaceviking]

The Borg are retarded space zombies whose whole schtick of adaptation was defeated by (among other things) a solar flare, a holographic tommy gun, a knife, and a naked alien punching them to death.

naked alien punching them to death? I'm amazed I don't remember that episode.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Borg are retarded space zombies whose whole schtick of adaptation was defeated by (among other things) a solar flare, a holographic tommy gun, a knife, and a naked alien punching them to death.

naked alien punching them to death? I'm amazed I don't remember that episode.

Species 8472 perhaps? I don't recall them wearing clothes.

[Oskuro]

What really amazes me is that this individual has chosen to e-mail Mike directly instead of, you know, joining the forum and starting up a debate. Almost as if he just wants to tell Mike off and not be open to retaliation.


<reads last two lines of wall of text> What the....?

To sum all of this up......you are a fool. Star Trek is based off of true science. Star Wars is based off of fantasy/never-going-to-happen movie science. Fight your losing battle. You have been owned.

Star Trek is based off of true science.

TRUE SCIENCE

[harbringer]

Aside from time travel, FTL travel, gravity control, phasers and so on which are complete fantasy. Star Trek is absolutely utterly false ... while idyllic societies have existed, not for a long time and only in a "vacuum" - on the whole most of humanity likes to be like the Empire. Even an attempt to grunge ST up in the past decade or two failed to bring it back to our experience of humanity. At least the makers of Star Wars set out to make things consistent, and with a passing glance in our direction.... this from a galaxy far far away.

As for his points a lot of them have been answered but a quick point, we learn from military failures why hasn't the UFP? the Empire at least had good reasons for doing what they did ... and were successful to a point (remember Hoth??).

Sadly he will never come here to debate as it would seem too hard to become a messianic figure bringing the light to our darkened souls.

[paladin]

Star Trek is based off of true science...I'm glad I'm not the only person that got a laugh out of it!

[Batman]

Why is it people always latch onto 'Trek uses real science terms' and conclude 'it must be based on TRUE SCIENCE' but happily ignore the 'it uses real science terms in ways that make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE and/or are PATENTLY WRONG' part?

[Akkleptos]

May I humbly suggest Lord Wong to forward some of the point-by-point responses ITT to the dumbwit felon and direct him to this thread for further discussion enlightenment...

Please...

Things have been too slow on the STvsSW department as of... er... two years ago?

[Marcus Aurelius]

May I humbly suggest Lord Wong to forward some of the point-by-point responses ITT to the dumbwit felon and direct him to this thread for further discussion enlightenment...

Things have been too slow on the STvsSW department as of... er... two years ago?

Come on, Akkleptos. It would be like natives with sharpened mangoes against the British army with machine guns all over again. Even for target practice you should set the target to farther than three feet away.

[The Romulan Republic]

If we were, hypothetically, going to invite a Trekkie debator over here for old time's sake, I might prefer a purely Trek 11 universe vs Star Wars Debate. Reasons?

1. The new Trek timeline vs Wars hasn't been done as much.

2. The new timeline appears to have superior tech to the old one in some respects.

Now, I am not saying that new Trek would stand a chance of winning, but it might be a little more interesting than a simple repeat of the old Trek vs Wars debates.

[Lord Revan]

the main problem with trekkie debators is that they didn't realize the gap was that big and wise up once they find out, or they're dishonest and/or delusional (and very much so) and either it wouldn't be much of a debate, as the trekkie side has no chance of winnning without "cheating"

which is why this forum died the first place there wasn't anything intellligent left in the debate and the morons can supply entertainment only for so long.

[LaCroix]

The silliest point is the destruction of Coruscant. A world which needs the industrial and economic outpot of several other worlds just to keep functioning.

In fact, destruction of that world would FREE a lot of industrial ressource to the war effort, actually strenghtening the Imperium.

[Serafina]

The silliest point is the destruction of Coruscant. A world which needs the industrial and economic outpot of several other worlds just to keep functioning.

In fact, destruction of that world would FREE a lot of industrial ressource to the war effort, actually strenghtening the Imperium.

Ok, i would dispute the assumption that it would strenghten the Empire.

Why? Well, for one, we do not know how much Industry Coruscant has. The fact that it needs food and raw materials from somewhere else does not mean that it has no industry on its own. By that logic, GB has no industry either.
Second, it would certainly hinder the bureaucracy - and you need that for a major war effort.

It certainly would not destroy the Empire in one blow, but strengthenening it is a strange assumption.

[Isolder74]

The silliest point is the destruction of Coruscant. A world which needs the industrial and economic outpot of several other worlds just to keep functioning.

In fact, destruction of that world would FREE a lot of industrial ressource to the war effort, actually strenghtening the Imperium.

Ok, i would dispute the assumption that it would strenghten the Empire.

Why? Well, for one, we do not know how much Industry Coruscant has. The fact that it needs food and raw materials from somewhere else does not mean that it has no industry on its own. By that logic, GB has no industry either.
Second, it would certainly hinder the bureaucracy - and you need that for a major war effort.

It certainly would not destroy the Empire in one blow, but strengthenening it is a strange assumption.

Oh it would strengthen it just the same way Pearl Harbor did the USA. If the Trek side pulled off such an attack the outrage would be HUGE. I'd expect that they'd even get The Rebellion pissed off enough to fight on the side of the Empire. Consider how fast the DSII was built is secret. Now imagine the galactic population to having no qualms about building them because of this attack? The federation wouldn't end up dealing with just one Death Star. They'd be having the possibly of 150 Death Stars appearing in orbit of all their main planets and letting loose on them all at once.

It would not end well at all.

[Serafina]

Oh it would strengthen it just the same way Pearl Harbor did the USA. If the Trek side pulled off such an attack the outrage would be HUGE. I'd expect that they'd even get The Rebellion pissed off enough to fight on the side of the Empire. Consider how fast the DSII was built is secret. Now imagine the galactic population to having no qualms about building them because of this attack? The federation wouldn't end up dealing with just one Death Star. They'd be having the possibly of 150 Death Stars appearing in orbit of all their main planets and letting loose on them all at once.

It would not end well at all.

Yes, thats a propable outcome - the outcry would certainly be a good thing.

But arguing that loosing Corsucant is a good thing because it requires a lot of resoruces is not really logical.

[Isolder74]

Then we both see our point on that situation. Instead of being an instakill of the Empire, if the capitol of Coruscant is taken out, it will just make things worse for the Star Trek Side.

This is obviously based on the Trekkies being fully aware of the tactical fact that the Federation will more or less cease to function with the loss of Earth.

So this Trekkie is making the assumption that doing the same to the Empire will work just as well and also assuming that they'd get the leaders of the Empire as well.

This isn't going to work out for several reasons.

1) The leader of the Empire is a Sith Lord and will likely sense the danger and be gone, with or without an excuse, before they can strike.

2) The main governing system of the Empire, the Moffs, is not on Coruscant and so much of the political system will remain intact if it is lost.

3) Darth Vader is not regularly at Coruscant so, even if they manage to kill Palpatine, the Empire will not be leaderless.

4) The only Imperial governing body guaranteed to be on Coruscant would be the disbanded Senate.

So in the end all they will do is kill lots of Imperial citizens, all from every planet in the Empire, not to mention members of The Rebellion, Hutts, etc. So even if the Empire's government somehow falls apart every major planet is going to be pissed. This will not bode well for the Powers of the Star Trek galaxy.

[Serafina]

What Isolder74 wrote

Yup, that's pretty much the point.

Of course, if we LOOK at the Red Matter, and do not assume that Nero wass just plain stupid (you can never rule that out in Trek) - then they need to sit over Coruscant for about half an hour (or longer) - over a planet with thousands of starships - good luck with that.

[Isolder74]

What Isolder74 wrote

Yup, that's pretty much the point.

Of course, if we LOOK at the Red Matter, and do not assume that Nero wass just plain stupid (you can never rule that out in Trek) - then they need to sit over Coruscant for about half an hour (or longer) - over a planet with thousands of starships - good luck with that.

A half an hour? The Emperor and the Senate would be in shuttles and gone before then. Even if they pulled it off, the Federation is hosed!