Hyperdive vs. conduits-- i.e. is hyperdrive really "faster?"

[Diplomat]

The monpolozation/control of "space lanes" in the SW galaxy, seems to counter the notion that hyperdrive allows a ship to travel magnitudes faster than Federation ships.

Likewise, when Han Solo was escaping the Star Destroyers in Ep. IV, he had to wait for his computer to plot the course to Alderaan before he could jump to hyperdrive, to avoid passing through a star, or too close to a supernova (or black hole, in the novel). Why not just jump halfway to the nearest star system--- and thus escape, giving more time in order to jump from there?

The apparent answer, is that hyperdrive didn't permit controlled travel in any direction (ala warp-drive), but rather this points more to a "conduit" system, i.e. the SW galaxy's space-faring civilizations are tens of thousands of years old (compared to only hundreds for the Trek civilizations), and hence have had more time to amass data regarding exting wormholes/hyperspace conduits.

Note that the age of the civilization doesn't necessarily related to advanced technology, since the midichlorians seem to have "stagnated" the growth of civilization into a cyclical history of civil war against the Sith.

This would be similar to the Borg-conduits, considering the age of the Borg as well, giving more time to amass astrophysical data from exploration in order to find/build such conduits.

In short, what's the canon regarding the speed of SW hyperdrive, outside of these "space lanes?"

[Samuel]

The monopolization/control of "space lanes" in the SW galaxy, seems to counter the notion that hyperdrive allows a ship to travel magnitudes faster than Federation ships.

Trucks can go off road or even on the streets, but for the most part everyone uses the highway system for long-distance travel. Just because they have an exceptionally fast method doesn't counter that they have alternates- in fact, given that they have to explore to insure that there is no obstacles, not that there is a "lane" supports that idea.

Likewise, when Han Solo was escaping the Star Destroyers in Ep. IV, he had to wait for his computer to plot the course to Alderaan before he could jump to hyperdrive, to avoid passing through a star, or too close to a supernova (or black hole, in the novel). Why not just jump halfway to the nearest star system--- and thus escape, giving more time in order to jump from there?

Because the Star Destroyers can jump as well and hyper drive takes some time to charge out- drop out and they might land upon him like the proverbial ton of bricks. Remember, he only shook them off slightly before when he got to Alderaan .

The apparent answer, is that hyperdrive didn't permit controlled travel in any direction (ala warp-drive), but rather this points more to a "conduit" system, i.e. the SW galaxy's space-faring civilizations are tens of thousands of years old (compared to only hundreds for the Trek civilizations), and hence have had more time to amass data regarding exting wormholes/hyperspace conduits.

Which is why the Rebel Alliance could hide above the plane of the galaxy- trust me, there are no warp nodes to empty space 100,000 light-years from the disk. (Episode 5)

Note that the age of the civilization doesn't necessarily related to advanced technology, since the midichlorians seem to have "stagnated" the growth of civilization into a cyclical history of civil war against the Sith.

Not really. Wars has stagnated because they have invented and discovered almost everything.

Additionally the fighting between the Jedi and Sith isn't that common- they have less than 10 wars in 25000 years.

This would be similar to the Borg-conduits, considering the age of the Borg as well, giving more time to amass astrophysical data from exploration in order to find/build such conduits.

Except that the borg conduits require physical structures to back it and hyperdrive is free roaming.

In short, what's the canon regarding the speed of SW hyperdrive, outside of these "space lanes?"

The fact that the Empire cannot control the lanes by simply stationing ships at the entrances.
The existence of the Kessel Run.
The Rebellions movement to interstellar space.
The fact that they can change their destinations in flight (Episode 1).
The fact that hyperdrive works on Dagobah, a world of ZERO value to galactic civilization.
The fact that they needed to explore the routes before mapping them... which means that hyperdrive is used for that.

[Stark]

The idea that the 'spacelanes' are actual physical routes is asinine; I believe the EU explanation for the EU conceit of spacelanes is the Republic-era reliance on pre-calculated jumps. There's no evidence at all that the commonly used routes are more than simply commonly-used routes (or even narrow 'conduits' at all).

[Diplomat]

The idea that the 'spacelanes' are actual physical routes is asinine; I believe the EU explanation for the EU conceit of spacelanes is the Republic-era reliance on pre-calculated jumps. There's no evidence at all that the commonly used routes are more than simply commonly-used routes (or even narrow 'conduits' at all).

So how does the Trade Federation charge for their use?

[Batman]

The same way the RIAA charges you for downloading music they cannot possibly prove you did? They blithely assume you used the route, charge you for it and dare you to prove them wrong in a long and costly lawsuit?

[Diplomat]

The monopolization/control of "space lanes" in the SW galaxy, seems to counter the notion that hyperdrive allows a ship to travel magnitudes faster than Federation ships.

Trucks can go off road or even on the streets, but for the most part everyone uses the highway system for long-distance travel.

Because it's faster-- MUCH faster. My point exactly.
I'm trying to find examples that show hyperdrive speed away from the regular "lanes."

Just because they have an exceptionally fast method doesn't counter that they have alternates- in fact, given that they have to explore to insure that there is no obstacles, not that there is a "lane" supports that idea.

My question is, how fast are the alternates?

Likewise, when Han Solo was escaping the Star Destroyers in Ep. IV, he had to wait for his computer to plot the course to Alderaan before he could jump to hyperdrive, to avoid passing through a star, or too close to a supernova (or black hole, in the novel). Why not just jump halfway to the nearest star system--- and thus escape, giving more time in order to jump from there?

Because the Star Destroyers can jump as well and hyper drive takes some time to charge out- drop out and they might land upon him like the proverbial ton of bricks. Remember, he only shook them off slightly before when he got to Alderaan .[/quote]

Could they track him in hyperspace? He said that his ship was too fast to be tracked; the DS was able to track him because of a homing-device.

The apparent answer, is that hyperdrive didn't permit controlled travel in any direction (ala warp-drive), but rather this points more to a "conduit" system, i.e. the SW galaxy's space-faring civilizations are tens of thousands of years old (compared to only hundreds for the Trek civilizations), and hence have had more time to amass data regarding exting wormholes/hyperspace conduits.

Which is why the Rebel Alliance could hide above the plane of the galaxy- trust me, there are no warp nodes to empty space 100,000 light-years from the disk. (Episode 5)

Are you saying they were able to travel that far into intergalactic space? I didn't see this in Ep. 5 (or anywhere else)-- was it in the film, or the novelization?
Likewise, unless the SW galaxy was particularly isolated, then this would allow them to reach another galaxy in about a relatively short period of time. I am not an expert on SW, but I assumed that the civilization was limited to only one galaxy.

Note that the age of the civilization doesn't necessarily related to advanced technology, since the midichlorians seem to have "stagnated" the growth of civilization into a cyclical history of civil war against the Sith.

Not really. Wars has stagnated because they have invented and discovered almost everything.

That's hard to believe-- they'd be on a par with the Organians.

Additionally the fighting between the Jedi and Sith isn't that common- they have less than 10 wars in 25000 years.

But they're locked in a continual struggle, rather than achieving a lasting peace that one or two Sith-lords isn't able to destroy.

This would be similar to the Borg-conduits, considering the age of the Borg as well, giving more time to amass astrophysical data from exploration in order to find/build such conduits.

Except that the borg conduits require physical structures to back it and hyperdrive is free roaming.

I'm using the term "conduits" figuratively to refer to subspace conduits (i.e. subspace wormholes that don't reach the surface) that exist naturally.

In short, what's the canon regarding the speed of SW hyperdrive, outside of these "space lanes?"

The fact that the Empire cannot control the lanes by simply stationing ships at the entrances.

You mean like entrance-ramps? I didn't mean that the conduits were actual "tunnels" that could only be entered from specific points; rather, they'd be accessible from any point near the particular star-system, which would leave an area too big to possibly control.
For example, Han Solo was able to jump directly to Alderaan from Tatooine; that leaves a pretty big area.

His nav-computer had to calculate the course- from the database, rather than with some sort of telescope-- in Ep. 2, Obi-wan isn't even able to verify the Kameeno system's presence without acutally going there himself, thus indicating that SW depends on archives rather than observations for its stellar cartography.

The existence of the Kessel Run.

Note "space lanes" was in quotes, i.e. figurative regarding subspace conduits.
Also, Han got caught by Imperial ships, and had to dump his load of spice from Kessel because (I assume) even though his ship's compartments foiled their sensors, he was worried that they would board his ship and search it.

The Rebellions movement to interstellar space.

This could mean that they dropped out of hyperspace somewhere along the way-- again, roads vs. tunnels.

The fact that they can change their destinations in flight (Episode 1).

In hyperspace? And if so, when did they do this?

The fact that hyperdrive works on Dagobah, a world of ZERO value to galactic civilization.

That's irrelevant to the the existence of a natural conduit.

The fact that they needed to explore the routes before mapping them... which means that hyperdrive is used for that.

Which comes to my question-- how fast is it, apart from these established routes?

[Diplomat]

The same way the RIAA charges you for downloading music they cannot possibly prove you did? They blithely assume you used the route, charge you for it and dare you to prove them wrong in a long and costly lawsuit?

The Force DOES have a strong influence over weak minds....

[Darth Wong]

Diplomat, you're aware that we have naval "trade lanes" even today, right? Or that we've had them for thousands of years? Does that mean you travel ten times faster when you're using one of them? Your position is based upon a non sequitur.

If there is such a huge speed advantage to be gained by using such a lane, why do we never hear of someone making an effort to reach one? If he has to go from point A to point B, he simply goes from point A to point B. You never see anyone saying "we have to go ten light years in this direction so we can get onto a trade lane, or else it will take ten years to make the trip".

[Wyrm]

We see in ANH that hyperspace travel requires a few minutes of calculation from a specialized computer system (the nav-computer). Why are there elaborate nav-computers if there are physical 'routes' through hyperspace? Why not just sense the boundaries of the route and program various drop-off points?

The answer is that your 'routes' don't exist as physical phenomena. They are computational abstractions, combining all the navigationally relevant information known along your planned route. For instance, there are very large regions in space where there is dense, molecular gas, called molecular clouds. Although they occupy only one hundredth of the galaxy by volume, they contain about half the mass of gas within the same region. Plowing through one of them at millions of times c would probably not be healthy, and they have this nasty habit of having 'hard lumps' in them —they're stellar nurseries— that you also don't want to run into at high speed. From Han's description of what might happen without precise calculations, one can infer that there are in fact many hazards in the galaxy that may make life unpleasant for a ship in hyperspace.

This is where the nav-computer comes in: using precise data about the current shape of the galaxy, it can plan a route through the galaxy while being reasonably certain that you'll make it in one piece. However, the quality of your data affects the route that is planned: if the navigational data of the computer is poor enough quality, it must give a wider breadth to known hyperspatial hazards, and in extreme cases can make the actual route very convoluted. Not only may it affect the speed you travel along a 1000 ly route, a 1000 ly route as the crow flies may turn into a 2000 ly route as far as actual distances traveled, effectively halving your speed.

Obviously, in a galaxy whose matter is constantly on the move, the information in a nav-computer will deteriorate as time goes by. A nav-computer would need frequent updates of the most current information. This is where a Trade Federation can make its money. By carefully observing the matter all over the galaxy, it can sell the most up-to-date information to travelers by subscription as a basic service, thereby letting you travel from one spoke of the galaxy to the other in a reasonable time. It may also make money on specific routes by constantly collecting the most accurate, up-to-date information along a route, and constantly calculating the best routes through them on a JIT basis to sell to travelers who want to traverse the route very quickly. If the data goes bad very quickly, you must essentially get the latest route data every time you want to travel the route, so the Trade Federation can reasonably charge for each time you want to access that data.

[Knife]

Could they track him in hyperspace? He said that his ship was too fast to be tracked; the DS was able to track him because of a homing-device.

Actually, Han tried to calm Luke by telling him he knew a few maneuvers to lose the SD's, not lose them by sheer speed alone. The boastful claims of speed were his selling point before the trip.

Which comes to my question-- how fast is it, apart from these established routes?

Why do you think speed changes, rather than distance for a more elaborate route? Or are you saying 'fast' as in a decrease in travel time?

[Samuel]

Could they track him in hyperspace? He said that his ship was too fast to be tracked; the DS was able to track him because of a homing-device.

He left the cockpit when they finally got away- they spent a good portion of the flight fleeing.

Are you saying they were able to travel that far into intergalactic space? I didn't see this in Ep. 5 (or anywhere else)-- was it in the film, or the novelization?
Likewise, unless the SW galaxy was particularly isolated, then this would allow them to reach another galaxy in about a relatively short period of time. I am not an expert on SW, but I assumed that the civilization was limited to only one galaxy.

That's hard to believe-- they'd be on a par with the Organians.

Not if the laws of physics aren't endlessly mutable.

But they're locked in a continual struggle, rather than achieving a lasting peace that one or two Sith-lords isn't able to destroy.

Because each new wave of sith emerge from the Jedi.

You mean like entrance-ramps? I didn't mean that the conduits were actual "tunnels" that could only be entered from specific points; rather, they'd be accessible from any point near the particular star-system, which would leave an area too big to possibly control.
For example, Han Solo was able to jump directly to Alderaan from Tatooine; that leaves a pretty big area.

Not really. It is a small cross-section compared to the possible routes and given ship speed, easy to cover.

His nav-computer had to calculate the course- from the database, rather than with some sort of telescope-- in Ep. 2, Obi-wan isn't even able to verify the Kameeno system's presence without acutally going there himself, thus indicating that SW depends on archives rather than observations for its stellar cartography.

Because exploration equipment is expensive and so they don't use it for commercial ships.

Kenobi didn't know if it existed. When he found out it did, he didn't need any spacelane.

The reason they don't have survey modules on ships is they have already mapped the galaxy- do you drive around with a sextant, compass, signal flares, etc?

Note "space lanes" was in quotes, i.e. figurative regarding subspace conduits.
Also, Han got caught by Imperial ships, and had to dump his load of spice from Kessel because (I assume) even though his ship's compartments foiled their sensors, he was worried that they would board his ship and search it.

Well, it is a narrow path because the Maw is in the way.

In hyperspace? And if so, when did they do this?

Tatoonie wasn't their original destination.

That's irrelevant to the the existence of a natural conduit.

That can be found by an X-wing. That goes straight to Cloud City.

Which comes to my question-- how fast is it, apart from these established routes?

The same speed until you hit something.

[Bounty]

Samuel: I think that image was discussed recently in PSW, and the conclusion was that it was very unlikely that the fleet was sitting so far out of the Galaxy.

[The Spartan]

Diplomat, you're aware that we have naval "trade lanes" even today, right? Or that we've had them for thousands of years? Does that mean you travel ten times faster when you're using one of them? Your position is based upon a non sequitur.

If there is such a huge speed advantage to be gained by using such a lane, why do we never hear of someone making an effort to reach one? If he has to go from point A to point B, he simply goes from point A to point B. You never see anyone saying "we have to go ten light years in this direction so we can get onto a trade lane, or else it will take ten years to make the trip".

We do much the same with aircraft. Though, like ships, any given aircraft isn't necessarily restricted to any particular flight path.

[Samuel]

Samuel: I think that image was discussed recently in PSW, and the conclusion was that it was very unlikely that the fleet was sitting so far out of the Galaxy.

Link? It might not be "far out", but it definately is in intergalactic space. Which probably doesn't have any lanes to it. Well, not in a universe where lanes are mostly between systems.

[Ender]

The Trade Federation makes its money by controlling ports on planets and in system, not by dominating magic "space conduits". When you are flying a 20 million ton starship there are only a few places you can land it or dock it, and even fewer facilities that can rapidly offload million of tons of cargo. Plus fueling, repairs, etc. So you put into these facilities rather than landing in a field. Construction and maintenance of these places is pricey, so they pay for it by charging berthing fees. If you own the facilities, you don't pay the fees. Lower overhead means a better profit margin, and you can manipulate operating costs like that. End result is that if you own the docks you can sell more, cheaper, and deliver it faster. And the TF acquired signatories by cutting deals with planets where they got goods even cheaper by signing treaties that made the Trade Federation Viceroy a viceroy for the planet.

[Bounty]

Samuel: I think that image was discussed recently in PSW, and the conclusion was that it was very unlikely that the fleet was sitting so far out of the Galaxy.

Link? It might not be "far out", but it definately is in intergalactic space. Which probably doesn't have any lanes to it. Well, not in a universe where lanes are mostly between systems.

Scroll down to the end of this post. I thought there was more discussion about it - weird. Anyway, looks like the SE might've been agreeing with you.

[Serafina]

To put it simply, space lanes are just well-known, often used routes.

There are propably pre-programmed courses avaiable for them. This will vastly shorten hyperspace calcualtion and propably even allow the use of commercial ships with only basic hyperspace computers to do the jumps.
What is more convenient for a trader: Using an easier (quicker to enter), save and cheaper (less expensive equipment needed) route or some random route with possibly unknown dangers which is also more difficult to use?

[Formless]

That's hard to believe-- they'd be on a par with the Organians.

Discovering/inventing everything isn't the same thing as being able to actually accomplish something with that knowledge, or find a practical application for it. Take reality for example: we currently know how nuclear fusion works and know on paper how to initiate it for human use, but we still don't have the technology to actually do anything with that knowledge. Same could easily apply to the Empire. Or any other civilization this side of Q level power.

[Ender]

That's hard to believe-- they'd be on a par with the Organians.

Discovering/inventing everything isn't the same thing as being able to actually accomplish something with that knowledge, or find a practical application for it. Take reality for example: we currently know how nuclear fusion works and know on paper how to initiate it for human use, but we still don't have the technology to actually do anything with that knowledge.

You were saying?

[Formless]

<snip>


You were saying?

Okay, obviously I meant we can't use it for energy production purposes; that is a whole different beast than bombs. You get my point.

Edited for clarity.

[Samuel]

That's hard to believe-- they'd be on a par with the Organians.

Discovering/inventing everything isn't the same thing as being able to actually accomplish something with that knowledge, or find a practical application for it. Take reality for example: we currently know how nuclear fusion works and know on paper how to initiate it for human use, but we still don't have the technology to actually do anything with that knowledge. Same could easily apply to the Empire. Or any other civilization this side of Q level power.

Or it could just be physically impossible and no amount of tech will let you do it. I think that some force-users have weilded such power, but the force is magic... maybe.

Samuel: I think that image was discussed recently in PSW, and the conclusion was that it was very unlikely that the fleet was sitting so far out of the Galaxy.

Link? It might not be "far out", but it definately is in intergalactic space. Which probably doesn't have any lanes to it. Well, not in a universe where lanes are mostly between systems.

Scroll down to the end of this post. I thought there was more discussion about it - weird. Anyway, looks like the SE might've been agreeing with you.

So it is currently undetermined?

[Wyrm]

Scroll down to the end of this post. I thought there was more discussion about it - weird. Anyway, looks like the SE might've been agreeing with you.

So it is currently undetermined?

I would think it's very determined, Samuel. In all versions, the fleet at the time sees a starfield, not a galaxy-field. While wandering stars exist, they're not very common. That's intragalactic space, my friend.

[Serafina]

Okay, obviously I meant we can't use it for energy production purposes; that is a whole different beast than bombs. You get my point.

Uh...we can use nuclear fusion for energy production. Its just not economicall feasible right now.

[Ender]

Okay, obviously I meant we can't use it for energy production purposes; that is a whole different beast than bombs. You get my point.

Uh...we can use nuclear fusion for energy production. Its just not economicall feasible right now.

No we can't. It requires more energy to initiate and sustain it then we get out from it. Hopefully that will chance with the new design, but we still can't use it. Has nothing to do with economics.

[Serafina]

Um...yes, thats what i meant ....bad english.

ITER is intended to be the first fusion reactor with a net energy gain.
The next generation of reactors is intended to make way for the commercial use of fusion reactors.