Darth Vader inside a Cube

[Kuja]

Conceded, but this doesn't help you.

Because phasers do not have the raw power that blasters do. And since lightsabers are clearly more powerful than blasters, Lightsaber>phaser.

But you still can't find any example of what it takes to penetrate drone shields. No energy weapon has ever done this onscreen, so we can't establish an upper limit for them. We can assume they're less powerful than Borg cube shields, which were only felled by several days of combined fire from an undetermined number of ships.

Ah, a No-Limits fallacy. To quote Mike Wong: "Officer, I didn't see a speed limit sign, so therefore, the speed limit must be infinity!"

In any case, Alyeska did bring up a limit: the borg had trouble adapting to a 10MJ weapon. Just how much trouble, I don't know, I haven't seen the episode in question. However, I can draw a conclusion from this:

IIRC, the Clonetrooper rifle is rated at 8MJ. Unless it is phenomenally more powerful than other SW hand weapons (and I don't believe this is the case), then the lightsabers burning through a door accomplish something that MJ-level weapons can't.

Conclusion: Lightsabers are much more effective than blasters, weapons that could quite easily give borg drones trouble.

Here is my claim, as I have proved it:

Lightsaber>blaster>drone shield>phaser.

You never proved that blasters are more powerful than drone shields. You never offered any comparison at all.

Nor have you given any proof of a dorg drone's ability to stand up to a blaster bolt, or for that matter, a lightsaber.

Run of the mill drones have no distance weapons. Only brute strength and assimilation tubules.

Good. That means that only a comparative few of them carry real weapons. This is going to be a cakewalk for Vader.

As it stands, the only concrete thing we know about drone shields is that they are less powerful than cube shields.

Cube shields>drone shields. We can assume that shipmounted phasers and torpedoes will kill a drone, since they damage cubes. But no energy weapon has ever actually been shown penetrating drone shields.

Again, the No Limits fallacy rears its ugly head. Might I remind you that phasers have been pretty much the only weapon we've seen employed against borg drones multiple times, which means we're drawing from a limited pool of knowledge. Let me make an analogy.

Say I'm testing a bulletproot vest made of kevlar. I spend several hours using a pistol and maybe a sub machinegun to shoot it. It stops all the bullets. Then, I roll out a Tiger tank. Will you confidantly state that since no projectile has ever been seen piercing this kevlar vest, that the tank will be unable to do so?

My point here is that when we see a shield go up against the same type of weapon over and over again, it's telling us little other than that the shield can deflect that type of weapon.

[Isolder74]

Metrion Cascade, how can you make someone choose between phase and frequench modulation, when the former is useless without the latter? Unless the frequency of waveform A and waveform B are matched, the phase angle is meaningless. In a waveform interference scenario, you need both frequency AND phase modulation.

Yes. But is the term "phase," as applied(abused?) in Trek, solely a reference to waveform interference? If so, then in what sense can a weapon be "phase modulated (phase being relative to another waveform)," and how does this describe "phased matter?" If matter has properties of a wave, in what physical dimension does it have to be "in phase" with the surrounding matter to be part of Trek "space-time?"

As for the Borg, they're trying to match some "modulation" with the Fed phasers to make them less effective. If it's frequency, why wouldn't it make the Borg's shields less effective, as occurs with other shields?

A Wave form is said to be out of 'phase' if it has the same frequency and it moves in a different plane reletive to the base wave or it is out of 'phase' because it starts later than the main wave does but it still vibrates in the same plane. One way to modulate the phase of the frequency is to chance the timing or the physical space the wave vibrates in. The former would provide less benefits for a defence system because the sheilds would still have a hole at the samr time. The latter would solve that problems of the holes when the wave reaches zero value but would be easier to adapt to because all the waves are in the same plane so san be more easilly tracked. The third way, which is how you modem works is a combination of both.

and yes Star Trek really does abuse the concept and often gets it wrong. WE rarely refere to modulation when talking about the phase of the signal because we usually reserve that for Frequencies. A signal containing phased waveforms is simply called phased.

[Robert Walper]

Given Vader's lightsaber and abilities with the Force, he should be able to cause signifcant trouble for the Borg, if for some reason he decided to. However, if the Borg find his presence extremely difficult to deal with, there shouldn't be anything stopping them from beaming Vader off the cube out into space. (The Borg didn't do this Species 8472, but their bio-makeup was impervious to Trek scans, etc. However, I don't think Vader's outfit is going to be a massive problem for the Borg transporter system.)

[Darth Fanboy]

Given Vader's lightsaber and abilities with the Force, he should be able to cause signifcant trouble for the Borg, if for some reason he decided to. However, if the Borg find his presence extremely difficult to deal with, there shouldn't be anything stopping them from beaming Vader off the cube out into space. (The Borg didn't do this Species 8472, but their bio-makeup was impervious to Trek scans, etc. However, I don't think Vader's outfit is going to be a massive problem for the Borg transporter system.)

Given the idiotic nature if your Sig I find it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Assuming that:
-The Force has no effect on Transporter fields
-The Borg can lock onto him
-The borg utilize this tactic (they have never done so against SF boarding parties, and Data was surely capable of taking down Borg after Borg, though not in the extreme manner Vader is)
-Vader is not in an area of the ship with (insert technobabble) that intereres with the signal, for all we know a lightsaber bight be impossible to transport.*
-Borg Transporters work in the same manner as Fed Transporters (which is a likely assumption but I can never recall seeing a borg Transporter itself in action, only the Borg themselves being transported)

Vader can Still Survive in hard vacuum for a short time, so:

-Imperial Ship (if there is one) picks him up
-Vader uses the force in some manner to take himself back to the borg ship if there isn't a great distance
-Vader lands on nearby planet unig the force (Luke Skywalker did this in The Courtship of Princess Leia, falling from space and levitating himself to Dathomir with the force.)
-Vader floats off, but still chopped up many many Borg to pieces and might take some satisfaction into the void knowing that they couldn't beat him in a fight.

[Darth Fanboy]

*- Can a Transporter work on an active lightsaber? Or would the unique qualities of the lightsaber blade cause some sort of reaction similar to that of say, attempting to beam a holodeck object into reality?

[Howedar]

Don't see why not. Transporters have transported phaser beams before, or at least have the ability (In TNG: "The Most Toys", I believe it was called).

[Metrion Cascade]

Because phasers do not have the raw power that blasters do. And since lightsabers are clearly more powerful than blasters, Lightsaber>phaser.

But you still can't find any example of what it takes to penetrate drone shields. No energy weapon has ever done this onscreen, so we can't establish an upper limit for them. We can assume they're less powerful than Borg cube shields, which were only felled by several days of combined fire from an undetermined number of ships.

Ah, a No-Limits fallacy. To quote Mike Wong: "Officer, I didn't see a speed limit sign, so therefore, the speed limit must be infinity!"

In any case, Alyeska did bring up a limit: the borg had trouble adapting to a 10MJ weapon. Just how much trouble, I don't know, I haven't seen the episode in question. However, I can draw a conclusion from this:

IIRC, the Clonetrooper rifle is rated at 8MJ. Unless it is phenomenally more powerful than other SW hand weapons (and I don't believe this is the case), then the lightsabers burning through a door accomplish something that MJ-level weapons can't.

Conclusion: Lightsabers are much more effective than blasters, weapons that could quite easily give borg drones trouble. <snip the rest of your strawman bullshit>

The drone shield point was already won by Howedar. And no, pointing out that the upper limit for drone shields against hand weapons (the 10MJ phase pistol never penetrated drone shields AFTER they were raised) hasn't been established isn't a no-limits fallacy. It just means you haven't proven an upper limit lower than the cube shields yet.

[Metrion Cascade]

Don't see why not. Transporters have transported phaser beams before, or at least have the ability (In TNG: "The Most Toys", I believe it was called).

In that episode, Data's Veron-T disruptor (bad Data!) was deactivated in transport. There was an episode where Lore was transported out while firing a phaser, and you see the beam transported out with him. And Nell Apgar was killed when his phaser beam bounced off of Cmdr. Riker's transporter beam and blew up his station.

[Metrion Cascade]

In any case, Alyeska did bring up a limit: the borg had trouble adapting to a 10MJ weapon. Just how much trouble, I don't know, I haven't seen the episode in question. However, I can draw a conclusion from this:

IIRC, the Clonetrooper rifle is rated at 8MJ. Unless it is phenomenally more powerful than other SW hand weapons (and I don't believe this is the case), then the lightsabers burning through a door accomplish something that MJ-level weapons can't.

Conclusion: Lightsabers are much more effective than blasters, weapons that could quite easily give borg drones trouble.

You haven't established that an 8MJ blaster can penetrate drone shields. On the contrary, those shields DID stop the 10MJ phase pistol once they were raised. How long it takes to raise the shields isn't a gauge of their power, but of those drones' ability to configure them. Once raised they did the job.

[Connor MacLeod]

According to Tattooine Ghost, blaster rifles are arou nd 60-70 MJ minimum. Roughly comparable in output to a lightsaber by an order of magnitude.

[Metrion Cascade]

According to Tattooine Ghost, blaster rifles are arou nd 60-70 MJ minimum. Roughly comparable in output to a lightsaber by an order of magnitude.

I don't know if this is canon, or refers to the same clonetrooper model that was mentioned as having an output of 8MJ (per what?).

[Kuja]

The drone shield point was already won by Howedar. And no, pointing out that the upper limit for drone shields against hand weapons (the 10MJ phase pistol never penetrated drone shields AFTER they were raised) hasn't been established isn't a no-limits fallacy.

Jesus. My fucking point is that the LIGHTSABER can do things that an 8MJ gun CAN'T. How did you fucking miss this? Blasters CAN'T blow through a blast door, but a Lightsaber CAN cut through it. Blasters can't even do further damage to a blast door that was partially melted by a lightsaber, for fuck's sake. Are you getting my fucking message? Drone shields will need to be ridiculously more powerful than being able to stop 10MJ in order to stop a lightsaber.

Besides, what was the nature of this 10MJ gun? Was it a phaser - a beam that works on modulations? Did it deliver the 10MJ all at once or over a period of time, which would make it easier for the shields to bleed away? How quick was its firing rate?

It just means you haven't proven an upper limit lower than the cube shields yet.

I don't need to prove an upper limit. I hereby assert that a lightsaber CAN and WILL slice through a borg's shields with the greatest of ease. Now it's YOUR turn to try and prove that a drone's shields will stop the beam. Do you even understand how a debate works?

<snip the rest of your strawman bullshit>

Oh, so it's "strawman bullshit" for me to point out that drones without ranged weaponry wall fall much more easily than drones with it?

So it's "strawman bullshit" for me to point out that we've never seen a drone survive an amount of energy anywhere near what a lightsaber could produce?

So it's "strawman bullshit" for me to follow up on the previous point by noting that just because borg drones can block phasers time and again, this does not necessarily make them capable of blocking more powerful blaster bolts, and more importantly, a much more powerful lightsaber?

You don't seem to grasp the concept of what a Strawman attack is: it's when a debator chooses to address a simplified version of his opponent's arguments (a straw man) and knock it down. What I'm doing is pointing out the flaws in your argument. Can you grasp the difference?

According to Tattooine Ghost, blaster rifles are arou nd 60-70 MJ minimum. Roughly comparable in output to a lightsaber by an order of magnitude.

I don't know if this is canon, or refers to the same clonetrooper model that was mentioned as having an output of 8MJ (per what?).

Per shot, I believe.

[Metrion Cascade]

The drone shield point was already won by Howedar. And no, pointing out that the upper limit for drone shields against hand weapons (the 10MJ phase pistol never penetrated drone shields AFTER they were raised) hasn't been established isn't a no-limits fallacy.

Jesus. My fucking point is that the LIGHTSABER can do things that an 8MJ gun CAN'T. How did you fucking miss this? Blasters CAN'T blow through a blast door, but a Lightsaber CAN cut through it. Blasters can't even do further damage to a blast door that was partially melted by a lightsaber, for fuck's sake. Are you getting my fucking message? Drone shields will need to be ridiculously more powerful than being able to stop 10MJ in order to stop a lightsaber.

Besides, what was the nature of this 10MJ gun? Was it a phaser - a beam that works on modulations? Did it deliver the 10MJ all at once or over a period of time, which would make it easier for the shields to bleed away? How quick was its firing rate?

It just means you haven't proven an upper limit lower than the cube shields yet.

I don't need to prove an upper limit. I hereby assert that a lightsaber CAN and WILL slice through a borg's shields with the greatest of ease. Now it's YOUR turn to try and prove that a drone's shields will stop the beam. Do you even understand how a debate works?

You seem to have missed the part where HOWEDAR ALREADY PROVED THAT THE LIGHTSABER WOULD WORK, DUMBSHIT. And yes, you do have to prove an upper limit for Borg shields, and then demonstrate that a lightsaber can exceed it. Which Howedar already did, and you aren't even trying to do.

[Darth Wong]

MC, a lightsabre should be able to exert physical force, even if its blade contains no mass. Borg shields have never demonstrated any abiliy to block anything coming with significant force. Ergo, this was a done deal a long time ago.

[Metrion Cascade]

MC, a lightsabre should be able to exert physical force, even if its blade contains no mass. Borg shields have never demonstrated any abiliy to block anything coming with significant force. Ergo, this was a done deal a long time ago.

I know they can exert force. I'm saying that without mass, they can't have the momentum of, say, a baseball bat. We've never seen drone shields block incoming matter, but we've also never seen them pierced by energy weapons. I'd assume the phaser bolts that physically knock people back when they're hit (and make ships jerk when hit) are exerting some kinetic force that, when hitting Borg, gets absorbed with the energy (shielded Borg don't even slow down when hit). Which, to me, indicates that while they can't block matter, they can absorb pure kinetic energy (and only pure energy) if there isn't too much of it. We have seen forcefields block other forcefields and absorb at least a portion of their kinetic energy in Trek (ships bouncing off of each other, etc.).

But since the lightsabre is already too powerful to contact the drones' shields without the energy overloading them, it doesn't matter whether Borg shields can block its physical force - they won't be there long enough to.

But this has thread has led to some interesting possibilities for clarifying the mechanics of phasers...if the Trek idea of "phase" isn't a reference to waveform interference.

[Darth Wong]

I know they can exert force. I'm saying that without mass, they can't have the momentum of, say, a baseball bat.

Irrelevant, since the only important characteristic of momentum in this context is that it must be countered with sufficient reaction force. Given enough driving force, the lack of momentum is not a problem. And Jedi can create prodigious driving force if they so desire.

We've never seen drone shields block incoming matter, but we've also never seen them pierced by energy weapons.

Sure we have; they are pierced whenever they are not "adapted", which means that their energy absorption ability is not too far off the power level of the beam in question. If their shields were vastly stronger than the beam, no "adaptation" would be necessary.

I'd assume the phaser bolts that physically knock people back when they're hit (and make ships jerk when hit) are exerting some kinetic force that, when hitting Borg, gets absorbed with the energy (shielded Borg don't even slow down when hit).

Those can be chalked up to muscle reactions (excepting the one on the Genesis planet, which has never been repeated and which might be chalked up to the weird behaviour of that particular place). Real people often display exaggerated reactions when shot even though the momentum of the bullet is small and not even entirely transferred.

Which, to me, indicates that while they can't block matter, they can absorb pure kinetic energy (and only pure energy) if there isn't too much of it. We have seen forcefields block other forcefields and absorb at least a portion of their kinetic energy in Trek (ships bouncing off of each other, etc.).

There is no such thing as "pure kinetic energy". Kinetic energy is a property of matter.

[Metrion Cascade]

I know they can exert force. I'm saying that without mass, they can't have the momentum of, say, a baseball bat.

Irrelevant, since the only important characteristic of momentum in this context is that it must be countered with sufficient reaction force. Given enough driving force, the lack of momentum is not a problem. And Jedi can create prodigious driving force if they so desire.

We've never seen drone shields block incoming matter, but we've also never seen them pierced by energy weapons.

Sure we have; they are pierced whenever they are not "adapted", which means that their energy absorption ability is not too far off the power level of the beam in question. If their shields were vastly stronger than the beam, no "adaptation" would be necessary.

Pierced shields are still visible, which they never are when drones are killed by a phaser hit. Drones don't raise their shields at all until they've adapted - they literally can't block anything they've never been hit by. That's just how bad Borg drone shields are. That or their judgment if they're deliberately sacrificing drones just to study enemy weapons.

I'd assume the phaser bolts that physically knock people back when they're hit (and make ships jerk when hit) are exerting some kinetic force that, when hitting Borg, gets absorbed with the energy (shielded Borg don't even slow down when hit).

Those can be chalked up to muscle reactions (excepting the one on the Genesis planet, which has never been repeated and which might be chalked up to the weird behaviour of that particular place). Real people often display exaggerated reactions when shot even though the momentum of the bullet is small and not even entirely transferred.

People being knocked backwards off their feet is a muscle reaction? A 700-metre (let me check, but I think inorganic) GCS lurching from side to side is a muscle reaction? A weapon that imparts enough molecular kinetic energy (heat) to ingnite some materials and cause others to explode can't also somehow impart kinetic energy on a macroscopic scale? Not to say the beam itself has kinetic energy, but that it somehow (perhaps by means similar to a magnet or electrostatic forcefield) generates it on impact with people and shields. Borg shields apparently absorb the beam before any of it can "convert" to kinetic energy. Certainly massless particles have been observed imparting kinetic energy in real life, at least at the molecular level (sunlight and lasers heating things). And in sci-fi, they can also apparently push "solar sails," a technology seriously being investigated IRL. I have also seen smaller macroscopic examples of this - those bell-jarred silvery pinwheels that turn when exposed to bright light.

Which, to me, indicates that while they can't block matter, they can absorb pure kinetic energy (and only pure energy) if there isn't too much of it. We have seen forcefields block other forcefields and absorb at least a portion of their kinetic energy in Trek (ships bouncing off of each other, etc.).

There is no such thing as "pure kinetic energy". Kinetic energy is a property of matter.

In which case lightsabre blades can't have any at all, since they are "pure energy" according to YT300000 (he says this is canon, and I'm not enough of a Warsie to refute this one), and therefore only generate KE on contact. Apparently, there are many energy constructs in Wars, Trek, and real life that, while not having kinetic energy, can generate it on contact (arguably phasers, certainly lasers, bright lights, tractor beams and forcefields) or convert it to other forms of energy (forcefields, tractor beams).

This is no longer relevant to the Vader vs. drones debate (even if the drones' shields are raised, they can't handle the sheer power of the lightsabre, so they fail anyway), but it's certainly a great discussion in its own right.

[Lord of the Farce]

Pierced shields are still visible, which they never are when drones are killed by a phaser hit. Drones don't raise their shields at all until they've adapted - they literally can't block anything they've never been hit by. That's just how bad Borg drone shields are. That or their judgment if they're deliberately sacrificing drones just to study enemy weapons.

Or they do raise their shields, but their shields in normal state is simply so weak that they don't appear to be on at all, and they only become visible as some sort of weird reaction when they stop fire from weapons they have adapted to.

People being knocked backwards off their feet is a muscle reaction?

It is, if the "knocked backwards off their feet" is actually caused by flinching reflexes (or something causing the nerves to "misfire").

A 700-metre (let me check, but I think inorganic) GCS lurching from side to side is a muscle reaction?

Involuntary reaction on the part of the person at the controls when the ship is hit.

[Metrion Cascade]

Pierced shields are still visible, which they never are when drones are killed by a phaser hit. Drones don't raise their shields at all until they've adapted - they literally can't block anything they've never been hit by. That's just how bad Borg drone shields are. That or their judgment if they're deliberately sacrificing drones just to study enemy weapons.

Or they do raise their shields, but their shields in normal state is simply so weak that they don't appear to be on at all, and they only become visible as some sort of weird reaction when they stop fire from weapons they have adapted to.

That's just it. I'd assume the shields would be at the same power level whether they were properly modulated or not, on the off chance that they'd have some effectiveness even off-modulation. So they should still be visible even if they're being penetrated. I think they're not raised until after adaptation because they can ONLY absorb individual modulations they're already familiar with (rather than interacting with every modulation), and being raised without the correct modulation makes them not just weak but totally useless. This is consistent with the shields being "phase" modulated (not in the traditional waveform interference sense but the treknobabble walk-through-walls sense) rather than frequency modulated. A frequency match makes shields less effective or useless. But a phase match...well, (sound of Geordi confidently running full-tilt into a wall and not passing through it - ouch ).

People being knocked backwards off their feet is a muscle reaction?

It is, if the "knocked backwards off their feet" is actually caused by flinching reflexes (or something causing the nerves to "misfire").

I'm not about to sift through every example of someone getting hit by a phaser and falling/flying away from it. You can't suddenly jump in any direction without flexing your legs.

A 700-metre (let me check, but I think inorganic) GCS lurching from side to side is a muscle reaction?

Involuntary reaction on the part of the person at the controls when the ship is hit.

Sure. Despite the ship not jerking on its own (meaning the helmsman isn't startled), the helmsman involuntarily types in the ridiculous string of numerical Okudagram codes it apparently takes to enter a maneuver - every time the ship is hit. This being the case even when he's thrown from the seat or gripping the sides of his console to stay in the chair. That must be it. Or maybe the helm is programmed to follow his movements. He jerks sideways for no reason, and the whole ship jerks with him. This in the heat of battle. It's so simple. Why didn't I think of it before?

[Sarevok]

Lightsabres have no frequence the Borg can not adapt to them.

[Metrion Cascade]

Lightsabres have no frequence the Borg can not adapt to them.

They're pure energy. How can they not have any frequencies at all? Not that it matters, since Borg adaptation isn't based on frequency but phase modulation.

[Chardok]

Well, I think the opint to this WHoooooooole Debacle is as i've stated before. Vader don't need no stinkin' lightsaber. Now we should move on to how he gets off the cube and back home...or should we let that live on to another post.

[Sarevok]

Lightsabres have no frequence the Borg can not adapt to them.

They're pure energy. How can they not have any frequencies at all? Not that it matters, since Borg adaptation isn't based on frequency but phase modulation.

How can pure energy have freaquency ? It is not EM radiation like visible light or radio waves.

[Metrion Cascade]

Lightsabres have no frequence the Borg can not adapt to them.

They're pure energy. How can they not have any frequencies at all? Not that it matters, since Borg adaptation isn't based on frequency but phase modulation.

How can pure energy have freaquency ? It is not EM radiation like visible light or radio waves.

EM radiation is pure energy - massless photons.

[Sarevok]

EM radiation is pure energy - massless photons.

But photons do create light preassure. That is how lasers beams can push around foils. The same goes for solar sails. So how is EM radiation pure energy ?