Trek Fleet counts

[Serafina]

For reference Serafina, Voyagers journey was IIRC repeatedly stated as 70,000ly, whic only makes your point stronger of course

And 75 five years. But yes, my point isn't really affected by that, his refueling-excuse is just pathetic - just like the rest of his arguments.

[Picard]

And I mentioned that on my blog where I gave analysis of "The Chase".
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/f ... drive.html

As for Voyager using Bussard collectors - according to warp formula, warp 9 is 1516 c. So either they did not intend to fly at warp 9 or they included using collectors.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Obviously they didn't fly at Warp 9. If warp 9 is 1516c, and they have a 70,000ly journey, they wouldn't estimate it as 75 years, would they?

75 years for a 70,000ly journey shows average must be <1000c. It's simple maths. I know thats hard for some though

Also, I'm not an expert but I think that might be a flase dilemna fallacy there Picard

[Serafina]

Yes, engine wear was likely a factor. Fuel was likely a factor. Navigational hazards might have been a factor.

However, in the end all of those don't change that Starfleet ships can't cover long interstellar distances in a short time frame. We NEVER see any Starfleet ship covering a significant part of the Galaxy without outside help (aliens, wormholes, anomalies). They generally have travel times of days - we never see anyone hopping someone from one planet to another (unless those are extremely close together). Crossing the whole of Federation territory takes days or even weeks.
Compare that to Star Wars, where even slow ships can cross half the galaxy in a day or two. We never observe travel times of months, unless you are stopping at planets for a longer time (in that case it has nothing to do with speed).

A very nice illustration is the smallest FTL-capable vessel. While that might be related to miniaturization, that's not the point here. The point is that there are hyperdrive-equipped fighters in Star Wars - fighters who have a cockpit comparable to a modern fighter. They only make sense if Hyperdrive can take you to another star system within a short timeframe. Otherwise, the pilots combat performance would deteriorate significantly - due to a lack of movement, hygiene and other factors.
On the other hand, every interstellar craft we see in Star Trek is big enough to have crew accommodation facilities. That's not even related to combat, they don't even have fast couriers to transport important people (IIRC, they had to rebuild a probe to do that at least once).
That only illustrates the difference:
Travel times across the Star Wars galaxy are comparable to modern aerial transportation. You can get everywhere within a day or two.
Travel times in Star Trek are comparable to those in the age of sail - you will need days, weeks or even months or years, and you can't even get everywhere unless you can stop on the way.


By the way, warp highways only make it worse for you. They might grant you very high speed on some routes, but they actually reduce your speed everywhere else. They are also not usable in an argument, since we just don't now where they exist - rabid trektards will claim that they exist whenever they are needed, rapid warsies would reduce them to almost non-existence. Sensible people recognize that "subspace terrain" can make a difference, but not by orders of magnitudes.
In the end, since "warp highways" likely can't be constructed, you are stuck to something similar to waterways on earth. Armies can (generally) move faster along rivers, more so if they have barges and the like. But in the end, you are up against a modern army which can move everywhere at high speeds - still dependent on the terrain, but still way faster even compared to your movement along the waterways. Outside of those naturally occurring "highways", you are utterly outmatched - and since your fast movement is confined to specific patters, you are suffering from a severe strategical disadvantage.


In the end, none of this changes the fact that Wars vs Trek strategic movement is like comparing a modern, air-mobile and mechanized army to a bronze-age army. The former can strike the latter where ever it wants, can run circles around it and will never be catched unless it wants to. Even if they have comparable weaponry, the former will still slaughter the latter with contemptuous ease.

[SeaTrooper]

To Lord Revan, thanks.

Picard: Your warp estimates appear to be accurate, just with added orders of magnitude. 1C for Warp 1, not 1,000C. Take a couple a couple of zeros off, and you're getting closer to the mark. As Captain Seaford (Highlanders?) noted, even Warp 8 has been shown to be between 750 and 800C.

How exactly do you get around the whole speed/range problem of VOY, exactly?

Usage of Bussard collectors to refuel ship.

Bullshit. Bussard ramscoops will - slowly - gain them the basic hydrogen they use as the matter-part in the AM/M mix, but where were they getting their AM from?

The point of that question was speed over distance (or the range their engines would last). They had tens of thousands of LYs to travel, yet you think they could travel at one MILLION C (places little finger on lower lip). Compare the 10C5 distance they had to travel, to the 10C 7 figures you're throwing around. Why weren't they home that afternoon?

[Captain Seafort]

As Captain Seaford (Highlanders?)

Seafort - you're thinking of the Seaforths. Actually it's from a series of novels - basically Hornblower-in-space.

even Warp 8 has been shown to be between 750 and 800C.

Not 750c, 750kc - three orders of magnitude faster. TOS tended to be.

Regarding Voyager, her top speed is canonically substantially faster than her cruising speed - about 21kc, compared to 1kc, as of The 37s. By the time of Scorpion a couple of years later, her top speed had dropped to about 3 kc, probably due to lack of maintenance.

[Picard]

Bullshit. Bussard ramscoops will - slowly - gain them the basic hydrogen they use as the matter-part in the AM/M mix, but where were they getting their AM from?

Maybe converting matter into it?

The point of that question was speed over distance (or the range their engines would last). They had tens of thousands of LYs to travel, yet you think they could travel at one MILLION C (places little finger on lower lip). Compare the 10C5 distance they had to travel, to the 10C 7 figures you're throwing around. Why weren't they home that afternoon?

No, they weren't. But given standard Trek speeds, they should be home in 2-3, maybe 5 years. Little more than 50, if we take "standard" warp formula from Memory Alpha.

[Serafina]

No, they weren't. But given standard Trek speeds, they should be home in 2-3, maybe 5 years. Little more than 50, if we take "standard" warp formula from Memory Alpha.

But they weren't. They estimated 75 years.
Furthermore, such high speeds are also inconsistent with DS9 - if that was possible, the Dominion could have invaded the conventional way rather than aiming for the wormhole.

If they had speeds of 1000000 c, then factors like fuel, maintenance and terrain would have to slow them down by a factor of 60 in order to get to an estimated time of 75 years. There is no evidence that their long travel time was solely due to such circumstances, rather, it was mostly an issue of speed. This is demonstrated by their repeated attempts to increase their speed - speed was clearly the issue here.

Furthermore, even if you claim fuel and maintenance as the main factors, you are still stuck with DS 9, where these weren't problems at all, given the available logistics. Yet the Dominion had to rely on that wormhole, when a warp speed of 1000000 c could have brought them into federation territory in about half a year. Fuel and spare parts could have been brought along on tankers and freighters. Yet they never even considered such an operation, and the Federation didn't consider such a scenario it a threat either.

Last but not least, even if you want to claim high speeds over short distances (but not over long distances), then you are still stuck with a problem: If such a high burst-speed was possible, then the Klingons/Romulans could have raided Federation territory at will, given that most of their planets weren't guarded by space ships (clearly seen in TNG). Yet, they can rely on the Neutral Zone for protection against the Romulans - at a speed of 1000000 c, the zone would be utterly insignificant. There would be no need for a zone, it would be a border instead.

The same applies to Dominion forces already in the Alpha Quadrant- they could have just striked against Earth or other capital planets in force, rather than fighting about planets on the way. Yet they DID care about planets on the way, planets which were only important strategically for their location - which would be nonsensical if they had such high speeds.



Conclusions: Extremely high warp speeds over long ranges are inconsistent with DS 9 and Voyager. High warp speeds over short distances are inconsistent with TOS, TNG and DS 9. Your excuses about fuel and spare parts only apply to Voyager, not to the rest of it. "Subspace-highways" which increase speed by OOMs are never mentioned and would not solve any of the problems mentioned above - people would take a detour over them, so they would still be about that fast.
Therfore, Star Wars utterly slaughters Star Trek simply by having an insurmountable advantage in strategic speed, which allows them to strike at will and with overwhelming forces.

Result: Picard gets executed by a Storm Trooper for spreading Federation propaganda.
obviously the in-universe picard, this picard here would never get into starfleet anyway

[Rama]

Of course then we have (taken directly from the wiki - so thank you Ted C):

TNG, "Encounter at Farpoint":
At this time, top speed for the Enterprise-D is about warp 9.3. Warp 9.8 may be possible, but it may also destroy the ship.

TNG, "Where None Have Gone Before":
Maximum warp speed is about 9000c. (Data reports the distance as 2.7 million ly, and Geordi reports a 300+ year travel time.) As of the pilot, maximum warp is about 9.3.

TNG, "The Icarus Factor":
Riker claims that it would take months at high warp to get from the current location of the Enterprise to the Vega-Omicron sector, on the far side of Federation territory. Assuming the upper limit on distance is 8000 ly (per Star Trek: First Contact) and the lower limit on travel time is two months, the upper limit on speed is 48,000c. Actual speed is probably far lower.

TNG, "Q Who":
Data reports they are 7000 ly from Federation space, and it would take them 2 years and 7 months of travel to get there. This indicates that the maximum sustainable speed of the Enterprise-D is about 2700c.

TNG, "Up the Long Ladder":
The trip from the Bringloid system to NB2323 is 0.5 light-years and takes more than 18 hours at warp 5. This means that warp 5 is less than 244c.

TNG, "Bloodlines":
It would take 20 minutes to travel 300 billion km at warp 9; this would put warp 9 at 833c. This estimate is an outlier, being quite low compared to other TNG speed examples.

TNG, "Clues":
0.54 parsecs is about a day's travel at cruising speed. This would indicate a cruising speed of 644c.

TNG, "The Most Toys":
Kivas Fajo's merchant ship, with a maximum speed of warp 3, could have traveled no more than 0.102 light-years in 23 hours. This is about 39c.

VOY, "The Caretaker":
According to Janeway, at "maximum warp", Voyager's 70,000+ ly trip back to the Federation would take 75 years. This is about 1,000c. "Maximum warp" may represent the best speed they could sustain over that distance with their limited resources.

VOY, "The 37's":
According to Tom Paris, warp 9.9 is 4 billion miles per second, which is 21,473c.

VOY, "Unimatrix Zero":
Voyager travels 2 light years in 2 hours when responding to a distress call. This is about 8,766c.

VOY, "Maneuvers":
Harry Kim gives a current speed of 2 billion kilometers per second, about 6,667c.

VOY, "Scorpion":
Chakotay states that at Voyager's maximum warp, a 40 ly trip would take five days which is just under 3,000c.

VOY, "Hope and Fear":
It takes Voyager two days at high warp to travel 15 Light-years. This is approximately 2,740c.

VOY, "Equinox""
Using an exotic fuel, the USS Equinox supposedly traveled 10,000 ly in about 2 weeks, for a speed of 260,893c. It should be noted, however, that there is no actual evidence that USS Equinox achieved such speeds other than a statement from Captain Ransom, a known liar and murderer.

VOY, "Friendship One":
A 132 light-year side-trip to investigate a planet would require two months round-trip at "maximum warp". This equates to a speed of about 1584c.

VOY, "Critical Care":
When Janeway asks how quickly Paris can get Voyager to an asteroid 3 ly away, Paris replies 2 hours. This is approximately 13,149c. The "How fast can you get us there?" question suggests top speed.

ENT, "The Expanse":
The Enterprise (NX-01) took seven weeks to reach the Delphic Expanse. That is approximately 373c.

ENT, "Damage":
The Enterprise (NX-01) travelled 4 Light Years in 3 days. That is approximately 487c.

ENT, "Detained":
The Enterpise (NX-01) traveled 5.2 Light-years in 3 days. That is approximately 633c.

ENT, "Affliction":
The Enterprise (NX-01) has become capable of Warp 5.2.

TOS, "That Which Survives":
Spock predicts that the Enterprise can travel 990.7 ly in 11.33 hours at warp 8.4, for a speed of 766,503c. This reference is a major outlier compared to most speed references in TNG and after. The distance is also based on nothing more than a quick glance at the starfield on the viewscreen, without even verifying which stars they were looking at. The source data for the distance is not reliable.

So a handful of outliers versus a dozen sources that suggest high warp is in the 1000-10,000 c range. I know which one I'm going with.

[SeaTrooper]

As Captain Seaford (Highlanders?)

Seafort - you're thinking of the Seaforths. Actually it's from a series of novels - basically Hornblower-in-space.

even Warp 8 has been shown to be between 750 and 800C.

Not 750c, 750kc - three orders of magnitude faster. TOS tended to be.

Regarding Voyager, her top speed is canonically substantially faster than her cruising speed - about 21kc, compared to 1kc, as of The 37s. By the time of Scorpion a couple of years later, her top speed had dropped to about 3 kc, probably due to lack of maintenance.

Oops, sorry. Can you tell me who the auther is? This is exactly the kind of mil scifi I enjoy.

Ref the inevitably slowing VOY, yes, the impacts of a worsening engineering situation does make sense over the long run. Minor defects do tend to build up until they are no longer minor, mainly by reducing your redundancies until that capability has been eliminated. However, now we get into the issue of how effective their Replicators are. Yes, I know Replicator use was (justifyably) rationed, but wouldn't parts to repair/maintain systems be a priority? We certainly saw that E-D couldn't go 5 years without TWO major dockings (1 so the Bylar could play with the computers and the other requiring the ship to be flooded with radiation, can't remember the episode names)!

My thanks to Rama, who so kindly posted so many episodes calcs. If nothing else, it shows that there was no consistency concerning warp values between series; even the later ones (TNG, DS9 and VOY). Yes, we have extreme outliers in both upper and lower values within a series, but the differences between TOS and what came after show that we might be better off considering which authors were involved in writing selected episodes than anything to do with their technological state. The comparative consistency of the VOY examples given, for example, might be worth examining.

Much as the distance they had to travel was the core premise of VOY, the vital strategic effects of low warp speeds effectively drove the later seasons of DS9. 1Million-C (even for short bursts of a day or so) is simply not supportable within either series, unless you declare them all idiots for re-fighting last century's war with modern ships. An analogy would be WW2 Admiralties treating their fleets as though they were still short-ranged, coal-fired, piston-driven, steam-engined Victorian Ironclads (without the option of hermaphroditic sails, of course).

[Stofsk]

TOS, "That Which Survives":
Spock predicts that the Enterprise can travel 990.7 ly in 11.33 hours at warp 8.4, for a speed of 766,503c. This reference is a major outlier compared to most speed references in TNG and after.

It's not inconsistent with the rest of TOS however, which depicted greater warp speeds than TNG and its spin offs (the Enterprise passes the galactic barrier three times during the show). With the possible exception of 'By Any Other Name' which had Kirk claim it would take thousands of years for the Enterprise to travel to Andromeda, which wouldn't be true considering the warp 8.4 speeds we see in 'That Which Survives'. On the other hand, high warp speeds cannot be sustained indefinitely, so I surmise it was an off-the-cuff remark, probably taking into account the logistics of traversing galactic distances rather than implying the speed of their engines weren't up to the task. After all, it's thousands of light years from Earth to the edge of the galaxy, and they cross that edge in this very episode, just as they had approached it in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before' and and later 'Is There In Truth No Beauty'.

The distance is also based on nothing more than a quick glance at the starfield on the viewscreen, without even verifying which stars they were looking at. The source data for the distance is not reliable.[/i]

Spock actually looks at the helm panel when he makes his accurate estimate 990.7 light years. As for them not verifying the stars they were looking at, that's not true. Lieutenant Radha makes the note that the star positions are wrong and called up a comparison based on the navigational fixes they had prior to being displaced. Based on that she gave a quick estimate of the Enterprise being displaced 1000 light years.

[SeaTrooper]

Bullshit. Bussard ramscoops will - slowly - gain them the basic hydrogen they use as the matter-part in the AM/M mix, but where were they getting their AM from?

Maybe converting matter into it?

Wait, what? They were making their own anti-matter? Where the hell were they getting the energy from to do that!

Producing a single positron (for example) currently requires so vastly greater an amount of energy to be expended than you get back, that it is only done for basic research. In some of the TOS novels, Scotty actually described the vast orbital facilities built in order to produce AM in the quantities SF required. And they had multiple fusion reactors and vast solar collectors to provide the energy that required.

But now VOY can produce their own AM? Damn, was that ever mentioned once in the whole series? Hell, I may be wrong and they could mass-produce AM by the kilo by then, but having the equipment to do so doesn't negate the fact that their energy budgets were so constrained that holodecks and replicators had to be rationed. Or are we talking about perpetual motion machines here? (Yes, Picard, I'm looking at you)

[Picard]

Yes, engine wear was likely a factor. Fuel was likely a factor. Navigational hazards might have been a factor.

However, in the end all of those don't change that Starfleet ships can't cover long interstellar distances in a short time frame. We NEVER see any Starfleet ship covering a significant part of the Galaxy without outside help (aliens, wormholes, anomalies). They generally have travel times of days - we never see anyone hopping someone from one planet to another (unless those are extremely close together). Crossing the whole of Federation territory takes days or even weeks.
Compare that to Star Wars, where even slow ships can cross half the galaxy in a day or two. We never observe travel times of months, unless you are stopping at planets for a longer time (in that case it has nothing to do with speed).

A very nice illustration is the smallest FTL-capable vessel. While that might be related to miniaturization, that's not the point here. The point is that there are hyperdrive-equipped fighters in Star Wars - fighters who have a cockpit comparable to a modern fighter. They only make sense if Hyperdrive can take you to another star system within a short timeframe. Otherwise, the pilots combat performance would deteriorate significantly - due to a lack of movement, hygiene and other factors.
On the other hand, every interstellar craft we see in Star Trek is big enough to have crew accommodation facilities. That's not even related to combat, they don't even have fast couriers to transport important people (IIRC, they had to rebuild a probe to do that at least once).
That only illustrates the difference:
Travel times across the Star Wars galaxy are comparable to modern aerial transportation. You can get everywhere within a day or two.
Travel times in Star Trek are comparable to those in the age of sail - you will need days, weeks or even months or years, and you can't even get everywhere unless you can stop on the way.


By the way, warp highways only make it worse for you. They might grant you very high speed on some routes, but they actually reduce your speed everywhere else. They are also not usable in an argument, since we just don't now where they exist - rabid trektards will claim that they exist whenever they are needed, rapid warsies would reduce them to almost non-existence. Sensible people recognize that "subspace terrain" can make a difference, but not by orders of magnitudes.
In the end, since "warp highways" likely can't be constructed, you are stuck to something similar to waterways on earth. Armies can (generally) move faster along rivers, more so if they have barges and the like. But in the end, you are up against a modern army which can move everywhere at high speeds - still dependent on the terrain, but still way faster even compared to your movement along the waterways. Outside of those naturally occurring "highways", you are utterly outmatched - and since your fast movement is confined to specific patters, you are suffering from a severe strategical disadvantage.


In the end, none of this changes the fact that Wars vs Trek strategic movement is like comparing a modern, air-mobile and mechanized army to a bronze-age army. The former can strike the latter where ever it wants, can run circles around it and will never be catched unless it wants to. Even if they have comparable weaponry, the former will still slaughter the latter with contemptuous ease.

Runabouts, shuttles and Federation Attack Fighters are not "big ships", yet they are equipped with warp drive. And yes, SW ships certainly enjoy speed advantage outside of "warp highways", but question is how much damage they really can do? ST ships outgun and outrange SW ships by considerable margin, and enjoy significant mobility advantage in sublight combat. Plus we know from direct and indirect evidence that ST planets are protected by planetary shields.

EDIT: I just noted your lie about ST "not having fast couriers". Federation Attack Fighters were reconstructed from civilian couriers.

[Purple]

ST ships outgun and outrange SW ships by considerable margin, and enjoy significant mobility advantage in sublight combat. Plus we know from direct and indirect evidence that ST planets are protected by planetary shields.

I will construct a hypothetical scenario here by fallowing this post of yours to the letter.
Star wars ship has a competent captain. The captain detects the ST ship.

His choices are as fallow:
1. Exit hyperspace at the maximum range of the ST ship and slowly fly toward it laughing as the weak torpedoes bounce off his shields.

2. Exit hyperspace on top of the poor ST ship and rip it apart.

Where exactly do you see the outgunned portion in that?

[hunter5]

I still have a question about how we came up with the idea that Trek fleet counts include fighters. I have watched some episodes of DS9 and nothing really indicates it either way.

[Serafina]

Runabouts, shuttles and Federation Attack Fighters are not "big ships", yet they are equipped with warp drive.

Way to miss the point, retard. Even tough i explicitly mentioned it.

The point was to illustrate the speed difference. ST-ships always have some crew accommodation facility of some kind, even shuttles. This would not be necessary if they could travel to their target location within a few hours.
Compare that to SW-fighters who do not have any sort of crew accommodation facilities, just life support (and some don't even have that). Yet they are regularly equipped with hyperdrives. That only makes sense if they can reach their destination within a few hours - at a travel time of days, the pilot would be exhausted and not combat ready.
We actually see that happening in RotJ - the fighters detach before the fleet reaches it's destination, and the jump they did was over a significant distance. That would not make any sense if they would take several days (ST-ships would need months), for the reasons mentioned above.

So yes - way to miss the point, shithead.

And yes, SW ships certainly enjoy speed advantage outside of "warp highways", but question is how much damage they really can do? ST ships outgun and outrange SW ships by considerable margin, and enjoy significant mobility advantage in sublight combat. Plus we know from direct and indirect evidence that ST planets are protected by planetary shields.

Only in your mind, shithead. Only in your mind.

Besides, even if your points were true, ST would still be outclassed. SW enjoys a significant numerical advantage, and their speed superiority allows them to bring it to bear. They can literary use most of their fleet and attack every ST-planet with thousands of ships if they want. Any ST-reinforcements would take days or weeks to arrive, and even if they had a large fleet nearby, SW can just retreat and strike somewhere else.
On the other hand, if Trek attacks back, they have to expose large parts of their territory, and when they arrive SW can bring in reinforcements within hours or even minutes.

Even worse, all your strategic assets (supply depots, shipyards, factories) are exposed - you can't build defense lines due to superior SW-speed. And you can't attack anything in imperial territory, since you need years to get there.

Basically, you will be outmaneuvered and outproduced, even if we believe your bullshit firepower-calculations.

[Serafina]

I still have a question about how we came up with the idea that Trek fleet counts include fighters. I have watched some episodes of DS9 and nothing really indicates it either way.

That's simple - it favors trek, so it must be true. That's literary the only mindset idiots like him have.
It's actually amazing that he admits that SW "might" have a speed advantage, but of course he still doesn't grasp the difference that makes.

[Picard]

ST ships outgun and outrange SW ships by considerable margin, and enjoy significant mobility advantage in sublight combat. Plus we know from direct and indirect evidence that ST planets are protected by planetary shields.

I will construct a hypothetical scenario here by fallowing this post of yours to the letter.
Star wars ship has a competent captain. The captain detects the ST ship.

His choices are as fallow:
1. Exit hyperspace at the maximum range of the ST ship and slowly fly toward it laughing as the weak torpedoes bounce off his shields.

2. Exit hyperspace on top of the poor ST ship and rip it apart.

Where exactly do you see the outgunned portion in that?

I see it in canon. And if we go with canon, choices of ISD's commander are as following:
1) Exit hyperspace at maximum range of ST ship and get destroyed by few photon torpedoes
2) Exit hyperspace on top of ST ship and do the same
3) Avoid direct confrontation and live to get destroyed another day

Even with TM photon torpedo strength (64 megatons from TNG TM) Galaxy class ship still outguns ISD (since we did not specified ISD is from EU, I go with one from G canon) by considerable margin, althought it might be somehow balanced out by TM GCS having weaker shields than ISD. But TNG TM is not canon, so this speculation is irrelevant.

Compare that to SW-fighters who do not have any sort of crew accommodation facilities, just life support (and some don't even have that). Yet they are regularly equipped with hyperdrives. That only makes sense if they can reach their destination within a few hours - at a travel time of days, the pilot would be exhausted and not combat ready.

Then how you explain Federation Attack Fighters? These are no more spacy than X-wings. And yet we know that Federation fleets included loads of them. And shut up with that "retard" thing, it clearly shows that you are either ignorant or you are deliberately lying.

Besides, even if your points were true, ST would still be outclassed. SW enjoys a significant numerical advantage, and their speed superiority allows them to bring it to bear.

They would still need to attack major planets or starbases in order to make any impact at all. Which means they would be tied in one place for several days or even weeks. Just enough for dozen-or-so Starfleet ships to arrive. Not to mention that these planets would have their own defences anyway. And with their superior range, firepower and sublight performance, Starfleet force would not be in any real danger. But not other way round.

Even worse, all your strategic assets (supply depots, shipyards, factories) are exposed - you can't build defense lines due to superior SW-speed. And you can't attack anything in imperial territory, since you need years to get there.

See above. Even if Imperial Fleet actually does have enough ships to win a war, it will suffer heavy casualties.

Basically, you will be outmaneuvered and outproduced, even if we believe your bullshit firepower-calculations.

Maybe. But it won't really matter. It will be effective stalemate, with neither side able to seriously threaten other.

That's simple - it favors trek, so it must be true. That's literary the only mindset idiots like him have.
It's actually amazing that he admits that SW "might" have a speed advantage, but of course he still doesn't grasp the difference that makes.

First, you're missing point. He asked "how we came up with the idea that Trek fleet counts include fighters". So, if you were talking about yourself, just put "wars" instead of "trek" and you'll be right.

[Serafina]

Even with TM photon torpedo strength (64 megatons from TNG TM) Galaxy class ship still outguns ISD (since we did not specified ISD is from EU, I go with one from G canon) by considerable margin, althought it might be somehow balanced out by TM GCS having weaker shields than ISD. But TNG TM is not canon, so this speculation is irrelevant.

Bullshit. How could a vessel that can destroy all life on a planet within a few hours (the MINIMUM requirement for a BDZ) be outgunned by a mere 64 megatons (which is still a widely inflated number).
Oh, right, in the mind of a moronic trektard.

Then how you explain Federation Attack Fighters? These are no more spacy than X-wings. And yet we know that Federation fleets included loads of them. And shut up with that "retard" thing, it clearly shows that you are either ignorant or you are deliberately lying.

Bullshit, they look significantly larger than an X-Wing. Also, were they equipped with a warp drive?
Besides, that's hardly a devastating blow, since that point was just an illustration anyway.

They would still need to attack major planets or starbases in order to make any impact at all. Which means they would be tied in one place for several days or even weeks. Just enough for dozen-or-so Starfleet ships to arrive. Not to mention that these planets would have their own defences anyway. And with their superior range, firepower and sublight performance, Starfleet force would not be in any real danger. But not other way round.

More bullshit.
They can simply bring in thousands of ships - Star Destroyers, Super Star Destroyers, Torpedo spheres, support vessels and so on. Those could slag any Federation planet or starbase within minutes even if we go by your idiotic numbers. And remember that they DO have superlaser-equipped vessels - even if you belittle the firepower of an ordinary ISD, they have FAR bigger firepower available, capable of cracking continents with a single shot. And that's if we ignore the Death Star or other real superweapons.

See above. Even if Imperial Fleet actually does have enough ships to win a war, it will suffer heavy casualties.

Which they could take, since their economic base is utterly untouchable.

Maybe. But it won't really matter. It will be effective stalemate, with neither side able to seriously threaten other.

Nope. SW can raid ST-territory, and they have plenty of weapons capable of destroying your planets and bases with ease, even if you claim that ISDs can't touch them. ST can't scratch a single SW-planet, since they simply lack the range to get there. Even if we accept your utterly outwanked numbers, you will be outproduced, outnumbered and outrun and blown to pieces bit by bit.

[Captain Seafort]

Oops, sorry. Can you tell me who the auther is? This is exactly the kind of mil scifi I enjoy.

David Feintuch - he died a few years ago. The novels are the Hope series, starting with Midshipman's Hope.

However, now we get into the issue of how effective their Replicators are. Yes, I know Replicator use was (justifyably) rationed, but wouldn't parts to repair/maintain systems be a priority?

Indeed - the crew rationing may well have been required in order to allow for essential use of the system. Nonetheless, replicators have numerous well-documented limitations, and there's a limit to what unassisted maintenance can achieve. While Rama provides a few quotes demonstrating higher speeds than the 3 kc from Scorpion, none of them are as high as the 20+ kc from The 37s. The sole example that comes close, 13 kc in Critical Care, appeared a few episodes before a major self-maintenance period in Nightingale. However, Critical Care had no stardate, so it's possible that those events occurred after Nightingale, and the high speed demonstrated was as a result of that maintenance.

[Junghalli]

If THAT is the reason why they can't use their whole fleet, their speed would be truly pathetic.

Maybe compared to Star Wars, but in absolute terms it'd still be pretty impressive. The Federation is thousands of light years across as per ST:FC, so if it takes them 10 years to cross it that's still hundreds of c. You could reach millions of stars in a few years with a drive like that.

After all, it's thousands of light years from Earth to the edge of the galaxy, and they cross that edge in this very episode, just as they had approached it in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before' and and later 'Is There In Truth No Beauty'.

Just a minor point: how far you have to travel to leave the galaxy depends a lot on which way you do it and how you define it. Travelling to the edge of the disk or beyond the halo from the solar neighborhood would be many thousands of light years, travelling beyond the "upper" and "lower" limits of the disk would be a relatively short trip (a few hundred to thousand light years as I remember).

[Picard]

Bullshit. How could a vessel that can destroy all life on a planet within a few hours (the MINIMUM requirement for a BDZ) be outgunned by a mere 64 megatons (which is still a widely inflated number).
Oh, right, in the mind of a moronic trektard.

If it is contradicted by G canon then it is not canon. All of my SW observations are based on G canon (except my analysis of BDZ which gives low gigatons for HTL) so keep EU out of discussion.

Bullshit, they look significantly larger than an X-Wing. Also, were they equipped with a warp drive?

They are larger, but cockpit is around size of runabout's at most (actually, there might be storage area behind pilots, we don't know). And yes, fighters are equipped with warp drive.

They can simply bring in thousands of ships - Star Destroyers, Super Star Destroyers, Torpedo spheres, support vessels and so on. Those could slag any Federation planet or starbase within minutes even if we go by your idiotic numbers. And remember that they DO have superlaser-equipped vessels - even if you belittle the firepower of an ordinary ISD, they have FAR bigger firepower available, capable of cracking continents with a single shot. And that's if we ignore the Death Star or other real superweapons.

Death Star was destroyed by single proton torpedo. I see no reason why Attack Fighter could not do it. Plus, 1000 ISD's - that is equivalent of firepower of few GCS. So little stronger shields would be able to hold for few hours - plus if planet in question has active defences (we know Cardassians had "planetary defence disruptors" and that Betazed had "undermanned and outdated (per trek standards)" planetary defences), it would be slaughter.

Nope. SW can raid ST-territory, and they have plenty of weapons capable of destroying your planets and bases with ease, even if you claim that ISDs can't touch them. ST can't scratch a single SW-planet, since they simply lack the range to get there. Even if we accept your utterly outwanked numbers, you will be outproduced, outnumbered and outrun and blown to pieces bit by bit.

Unless Federation captures hyperdrive, which is only real SW advantage other than their economy base (and Death Star, but I see no reason why Attack Fighter could not blow it up). Empire may win (and almost certainly will, unless mere news of Federation cause it to collapse, or Rebels provide it with hyperdrive), but it will be phyrric victory with little gained and much lost. Plus we're talking about Federation, but there are Klingon Empire (wich is allied with Federation) and Romulan Empire (depends if we take time just before or some time after Dominion war) wich might add some 16-17 000 more ships and more territory for Empire to attack (and spread thin in process). One way or another, it might be phyrric victory for Empire, but it would loose thousands of ships in process. Which might be more than it has, if we take ISD's and SSD's only.

[Captain Seafort]

If it is contradicted by G canon then it is not canon. All of my SW observations are based on G canon (except my analysis of BDZ which gives low gigatons for HTL) so keep EU out of discussion.

So fucking prove it stupid. The calculations obtainable from various ESB asteroids do not disprove the petaton-range firepower of the main guns any more than calcing an M16 would disprove the existence of MLRS.

[TOSDOC]

With the possible exception of 'By Any Other Name' which had Kirk claim it would take thousands of years for the Enterprise to travel to Andromeda, which wouldn't be true considering the warp 8.4 speeds we see in 'That Which Survives'.

Unless Kirk was bluffing at the Kelvans before they had a chance to examine the Enterprise tech and prove him wrong. He didn't have much more to work with yet at the time to stop them.

Wait, what? They were making their own anti-matter? Where the hell were they getting the energy from to do that!

Producing a single positron (for example) currently requires so vastly greater an amount of energy to be expended than you get back, that it is only done for basic research. In some of the TOS novels, Scotty actually described the vast orbital facilities built in order to produce AM in the quantities SF required. And they had multiple fusion reactors and vast solar collectors to provide the energy that required.

But now VOY can produce their own AM? Damn, was that ever mentioned once in the whole series? Hell, I may be wrong and they could mass-produce AM by the kilo by then, but having the equipment to do so doesn't negate the fact that their energy budgets were so constrained that holodecks and replicators had to be rationed. Or are we talking about perpetual motion machines here? (Yes, Picard, I'm looking at you)

Kirk mentions in "The Mark Of Gideon" that the Enterprise's power regenerates. Is there an engineer/physicist here who could explain to me how the alternator on the TOS Enterprise works?

Unless Federation captures hyperdrive, which is only real SW advantage other than their economy base (and Death Star, but I see no reason why Attack Fighter could not blow it up). Empire may win (and almost certainly will, unless mere news of Federation cause it to collapse, or Rebels provide it with hyperdrive), but it will be phyrric victory with little gained and much lost. Plus we're talking about Federation, but there are Klingon Empire (wich is allied with Federation) and Romulan Empire (depends if we take time just before or some time after Dominion war) wich might add some 16-17 000 more ships and more territory for Empire to attack (and spread thin in process). One way or another, it might be phyrric victory for Empire, but it would loose thousands of ships in process. Which might be more than it has, if we take ISD's and SSD's only.

That's a lot of "if's"--from what Serafina's describing and what I've seen on the show, it would take the Imperials much less time to destroy the Federation one planet at a time than it would the Federation to diplomatically secure enough allies to come up with a plan to steal a SW hyperdrive just to secure a phyrric victory.

[Serafina]

If it is contradicted by G canon then it is not canon. All of my SW observations are based on G canon (except my analysis of BDZ which gives low gigatons for HTL) so keep EU out of discussion.

Except that it's NOT contradicted by G-canon. You still treat "doesn't appear in g-canon" as "is contradicted by g-canon". But in order to be contradicted by G-canon, it has to APPEAR in G-canon.
We never see the firepower of heavy or even medium turbolasers in G-canon. We see the firepower of light turbolasers, but that's like seeing a tanks machine gun and claiming that it is it's strongest weapon. Or taking a battleships point-defense gun (anti-aircraft gun) and ignoring the fucking main guns.

They are larger, but cockpit is around size of runabout's at most (actually, there might be storage area behind pilots, we don't know). And yes, fighters are equipped with warp drive.

If there is a storage area, it's likely to contain some crew accommodation facilities. Given that we know ST-travel times, they are actually a requirement for any interstellar travel.

Death Star was destroyed by single proton torpedo. I see no reason why Attack Fighter could not do it. Plus, 1000 ISD's - that is equivalent of firepower of few GCS. So little stronger shields would be able to hold for few hours - plus if planet in question has active defences (we know Cardassians had "planetary defence disruptors" and that Betazed had "undermanned and outdated (per trek standards)" planetary defences), it would be slaughter.

Moron. Not only did the Death Star 2 NOT have that weakness, but ST-torpedoes are significantly larger than SW-proton torpedoes, and have never been observed to make such a sharp right-angle turn. They wouldn't even get into that shaft.
Besides, you are ignoring Super Star Destroyers - some of which have been outfitted with superlasers capable of obliterating continents (actually splitting the continental crust). A single one of those could hyper in, blow up whatever it wants, and hyper out again, and you can do nothing against it.

Unless Federation captures hyperdrive, which is only real SW advantage other than their economy base (and Death Star, but I see no reason why Attack Fighter could not blow it up). Empire may win (and almost certainly will, unless mere news of Federation cause it to collapse, or Rebels provide it with hyperdrive), but it will be phyrric victory with little gained and much lost. Plus we're talking about Federation, but there are Klingon Empire (wich is allied with Federation) and Romulan Empire (depends if we take time just before or some time after Dominion war) wich might add some 16-17 000 more ships and more territory for Empire to attack (and spread thin in process). One way or another, it might be phyrric victory for Empire, but it would loose thousands of ships in process. Which might be more than it has, if we take ISD's and SSD's only.

"Mere news of Federation make it collapse" Do we need any more proof that this guy is a moronic, clueless wanker?

As far as "capturing hyperdrive" goes: You can't just assume that they will magically figure out technology utterly alien to them in such little time. Reverse-engineering just doesn't work that way. If you think it does - well, you have already proven that you are ignorant of reality.

Look, if we accept your made-up numbers that 1000 ISDs equal one GCS and the Empire wants to bring the Federation to it's knees, it can totally do it.
Just follow these simple steps: Build another Death Star II and some Eclipse-class SSDs. Don't build any more ISDs or similar ships than you already have. Send the Death Star and Eclipses into Federation territory. Demand surrender, or you will blow up unprotected outposts every 6 hours. Since you are way faster than Federation-ships, they simply can't intercept you, and you will only meet a couple of defending ships - at best. Jump around and kill their defenseless people until they surrender.
If that doesn't work within, say, 2 weeks, start blowing up their star bases - give them one last warning and then blow up that spacedock around earth. The Death Star hypers in, blows it up, hypers out. The Federation can do nothing. Repeat until their logistical structure is blown apart, or they surrender.
Alternatively or additionally, you can try to land troops on their planets. Since the Federation doesn't even have squad support weapons or armor, you can slaughter them utterly. You can do that by letting some unimportant ISDs jump around, find undefended planets and land troops of them. Kill everyone, and broadcast your troops slaughtering redshirts as propaganda if you want to.

There is NOTHING the Federation can do against that strategy. They can't use their superweapons, since those only work on planets and stars - and they can't get to imperial planets in time, it would take them years. They can't stop the Death Star or Eclipse-class SSDs. They can't defeat any ground troops that have landed without orbital bombardment, which will just blow up their cities (that part is just a bonus anyway).
They will either surrender because their will has been crushed utterly, quivering in fear and shitting their overalls (thereby increasing their laundry bills ) - or because their starships will run out of fuel, food and other supplies. Or they just run out of planets - at the rate mentioned above, that will happen in about 7 weeks.
Again - there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they can do against that, even if we accept your numbers and that an ISD is 1000 times weaker than a GCS (even tough both can get roughly similar orbital bombardment results even if we believe you).


Face it, wanker. You loose, even if we accept your utterly retarded, ass-pulled shit-smeared "numbers".