Borg vs. ISD

[Metahive]

I think for this scenario to contain any sort of serious tension, it has to be more like this:

An Imperial Star Destroyer is sucked into a transdimensional vortex and deposited inside Borg space. Through the rough ride, most systems, including propulsion, weapons and shields are heavily damaged (yet repairable with tools available onboard the ship) and off-line and two thirds of the crew killed. A Borg Cube notices a nearby anomaly, warps in and beams thousands of drones all over the ISD while the ship is still help- and defenseless and also starts dragging it via tractor beam towards the nearest unicomplex for salvaging.

How well will the imperial crew do? Will they manage to get the invaders off and the ship on-line quick enough before the Borg reinforcements arrive or the Borg cut the ship into pieces?

[lord Martiya]

Well, in this scenario the crew may just launch its fighters and destroy the towing ships, while the Borgs remain helpless against E-Webs and whatever else the Empire has on board.
And should the Borg actually manage to tow the ISD to a base, the Imperials just need to keep two spots of the bridge for less than five seconds to blow up the ship and the base with it, if the self-destruct system is standardized as I got the impression of from Truce at Bakura.

[Metahive]

Sure, those are possibilities, but I also said that the shields are down and the Borg beaming drones all over the ship and a Cube can hold 60000-120000 of them. More than enough to just swamp the interior of the Star Destroyer and make coordinated actions like launching fighters hard. Of course, if the Imperials make too much trouble, they'll just be beamed off the ship and straight into the bio extraction chambers.

Yeah, when I think of it, weakening the Star Destroyer just enough to enable a drawn out fight with a Borg Cube is quite hard without skewing it too far in the other direction.

[keen320]

How effective would the Borg's cutting beam be? Could they use it to, say, chop off the bridge tower?

Also, why do they have stormtroopers wandering all over the ship constantly? Is sabotage really that common? Is it just something to keep them busy? I thought bordering actions in Star wars were rare, and that the main site specifically mocked that aspect of Trek.

[Norade]

Even without shields it's unlikely that the Borg will be able to beam through the exotic materials used in the Star Destroyer's hull meaning that nobody's getting beamed into or out of anywhere so the zombies will need to attempt to land their horde through conventional means. However their is a case to be made about cutting into the hull, though if phasers have difficulty destroying an asteroid than anything more than attacking sensor domes and the like might simply be beyond them. Of course at this point the Borg will still need to face down any TIE's, Stormtrooper transports, Skipray blastboats, and shuttles that the ISD should be able to launch.

[Metahive]

What makes you think that Quadanium alloy or whatever the Imperials use as armor is impervious to transporters? Not even Wong makes that claim on the main site.

[Baffalo]

Also, why do they have stormtroopers wandering all over the ship constantly? Is sabotage really that common? Is it just something to keep them busy? I thought bordering actions in Star wars were rare, and that the main site specifically mocked that aspect of Trek.

I don't think it's so much to intercept sabotage as to provide an actual, visible symbol of the Empire close at hand to all, and to keep the stormtroopers themselves busy. During the height of the Roman Empire, even in times of peace the legions were put to work building roads and other tasks to keep them from sitting around doing nothing. It helped instill discipline and keep them in physical shape. While I highly doubt there's much for the stormtroopers to do aboard ship, having them march up and down the ship keeps them organized. There's only so many times you can polish your armor and clean your blaster before it's too much.

Also, since hyperspace keeps ships near worlds fairly often, having a group of stormtroopers ready to go at a moment's notice means that before a situation can escalate, troops can be loaded and dropped to the surface in a ready fashion. If even that's not enough, then the ISD can bombard the surface from orbit.

[Big Phil]

Sure, those are possibilities, but I also said that the shields are down and the Borg beaming drones all over the ship and a Cube can hold 60000-120000 of them. More than enough to just swamp the interior of the Star Destroyer and make coordinated actions like launching fighters hard.

Since when have the lumbering Borg zombies demonstrated that, even outnumbering an opponent, 4:1, they'll do anything other than walk directly at them?

Of course, if the Imperials make too much trouble, they'll just be beamed off the ship and straight into the bio extraction chambers.

Which has happened when, exactly? And through how much armor? Oh right, this is NO LIMITS to Borg transporters again.

[Metahive]

Which has happened when, exactly? And through how much armor? Oh right, this is NO LIMITS to Borg transporters again.

Dark Frontier. Don't know how armored those ships were, but o right, this is NO LIMITS to Star Wars armor again. They can now even block transporters although only the magical superadvanced hardmode armor on Hirogen ships ever displayed this ability in the Trekverse.
I repeat, even Wong says that SW armor won't block transporters. He says they should instead put up light sensor jamming fields to scramble it.

Since when have the lumbering Borg zombies demonstrated that, even outnumbering an opponent, 4:1, they'll do anything other than walk directly at them?

What has that to do with my post? Did I say they'll do fancy backflips and practise gunkatta on the SD? No, I just said they can they can clog the ship with massive numbers all over the place if the shields are down, and remember that the SD in this scenario is massively damaged and the crew reduced in numbers and out of shape.

[Baffalo]

Sure, those are possibilities, but I also said that the shields are down and the Borg beaming drones all over the ship and a Cube can hold 60000-120000 of them. More than enough to just swamp the interior of the Star Destroyer and make coordinated actions like launching fighters hard.

Since when have the lumbering Borg zombies demonstrated that, even outnumbering an opponent, 4:1, they'll do anything other than walk directly at them?

I'm sorry, metahive, but Sanchez does have a point. The Borg have never once demonstrated anything but a single, simplistic mindset to all actions save those personally orchestrated by the Borg queen, and even then they were convoluted and overly thought out. The Borg seem to be an all or nothing species, either coming head on regardless of consequences, or putting so much thought into trying to outsmart their enemies that their plans fall apart.

Of course, if the Imperials make too much trouble, they'll just be beamed off the ship and straight into the bio extraction chambers.

Which has happened when, exactly? And through how much armor? Oh right, this is NO LIMITS to Borg transporters again.

The argument could be made that Borg transporters are more powerful or sophisticated than Starfleet transporters, since they were able to beam drones through armor and multiple decks to plant them in the Jeffress tubes in Engineering. This required quite a sophisticated transport, as a simple standing drone would be transported into a bulkhead. Not all areas of an ISD are heavily armored, as the armor seems to be piled thick in some areas and left lacking in others through simple observation. These areas would be more vulnerable to attempts to transport in drones or transport others out.

Also, don't forget that an ISD has a large open hangar bay. That might further their chances of getting in, or at least beaming in drones to plague the flight crews. Whether their tactics would be successful in delaying or even stopping the fighters is unknown.

[Metahive]

I'm sorry, metahive, but Sanchez does have a point. The Borg have never once demonstrated anything but a single, simplistic mindset to all actions save those personally orchestrated by the Borg queen, and even then they were convoluted and overly thought out. The Borg seem to be an all or nothing species, either coming head on regardless of consequences, or putting so much thought into trying to outsmart their enemies that their plans fall apart.

I repeat, what the hell do you and Sanchez think I was saying? I didn't say they were going to use fancy tactics, just swamp the ship in massive numbers and that's very well within Borg capabilities.

The "coordinated actions" part rather obviously does not refer to the BORG in case that's what you two are objecting to.

The argument could be made that Borg transporters are more powerful or sophisticated than Starfleet transporters, since they were able to beam drones through armor and multiple decks to plant them in the Jeffress tubes in Engineering. This required quite a sophisticated transport, as a simple standing drone would be transported into a bulkhead. Not all areas of an ISD are heavily armored, as the armor seems to be piled thick in some areas and left lacking in others through simple observation. These areas would be more vulnerable to attempts to transport in drones or transport others out.

Also, don't forget that an ISD has a large open hangar bay. That might further their chances of getting in, or at least beaming in drones to plague the flight crews. Whether their tactics would be successful in delaying or even stopping the fighters is unknown.

Why do people keep saying ISD armor will matter? Is it made of the same material Hirogen ships are made of? Obviously not, so where comes this idea that it'll somehow block transporter beams from?

[Baffalo]

I'm sorry, metahive, but Sanchez does have a point. The Borg have never once demonstrated anything but a single, simplistic mindset to all actions save those personally orchestrated by the Borg queen, and even then they were convoluted and overly thought out. The Borg seem to be an all or nothing species, either coming head on regardless of consequences, or putting so much thought into trying to outsmart their enemies that their plans fall apart.

I repeat, what the hell do you and Sanchez think I was saying? I didn't say they were going to use fancy tactics, just swamp the ship in massive numbers and that's very well within Borg capabilities.

The "coordinated actions" part rather obviously does not refer to the BORG in case that's what you two are objecting to.

May I point to the Battle of New Orleans? Andrew Jackson and his volunteers were able to hold a fortified position against an enemy advancing directly towards his line, time and again, without changing tactics. Given enough ammunition and a good enough defensive position, a group can hold out indefinitely. Enough of these points, and there's nothing the Borg can do with drones alone.

The argument could be made that Borg transporters are more powerful or sophisticated than Starfleet transporters, since they were able to beam drones through armor and multiple decks to plant them in the Jeffress tubes in Engineering. This required quite a sophisticated transport, as a simple standing drone would be transported into a bulkhead. Not all areas of an ISD are heavily armored, as the armor seems to be piled thick in some areas and left lacking in others through simple observation. These areas would be more vulnerable to attempts to transport in drones or transport others out.

Also, don't forget that an ISD has a large open hangar bay. That might further their chances of getting in, or at least beaming in drones to plague the flight crews. Whether their tactics would be successful in delaying or even stopping the fighters is unknown.

Why do people keep saying ISD armor will matter? Is it made of the same material Hirogen ships are made of? Obviously not, so where comes this idea that it'll somehow block transporter beams from?

The idea isn't just that the armor can stop the transporter beam, it's that the armor blocks scans. Sensors need to send a stream of particles out, allow them to interact in some manner with the material being scanned, and returned. The denser the material, the more difficult it becomes. The same principle can apply to ground penetrating radar. There's a reason we don't have scans all the way down to the core of the Earth, because material will, over time, impede our ability to scan beyond a certain point. Density plays a major factor in this. Super dense armor makes it difficult for scans to penetrate, and even the Borg know that beaming a drone into a bulkhead does zero good.

[Metahive]

May I point to the Battle of New Orleans? Andrew Jackson and his volunteers were able to hold a fortified position against an enemy advancing directly towards his line, time and again, without changing tactics. Given enough ammunition and a good enough defensive position, a group can hold out indefinitely. Enough of these points, and there's nothing the Borg can do with drones alone.

Battle of Thermopylae, indefeatable defensive position, yet they lost since the enemy found a way to flank them. Drones all over the ship, outnumbering the remaining crew 3:1 or even 6:1, means no single safe position in the initial phase. No, it's no that easy. I crippled the SD and its crew on purpose because I know that in a fair fight, it'd be a one-sided smackdown.

The objective of the SD crew is to repel the invaders and get repair crews to the engines, weapon and shield systems that have been put off-line by the rough ride into the Trek Dimension as fast as possible, before the Borg do their thing there. They can't stay passive like you propose.

The idea isn't just that the armor can stop the transporter beam, it's that the armor blocks scans. Sensors need to send a stream of particles out, allow them to interact in some manner with the material being scanned, and returned. The denser the material, the more difficult it becomes. The same principle can apply to ground penetrating radar. There's a reason we don't have scans all the way down to the core of the Earth, because material will, over time, impede our ability to scan beyond a certain point. Density plays a major factor in this. Super dense armor makes it difficult for scans to penetrate, and even the Borg know that beaming a drone into a bulkhead does zero good.

Nice to compare SD armor to the crust of an entire planet. Slightly out of proportion, don't you think? Now please show that SD armor is in fact dense enough to block Borg scanrays, because that just sounds like outright wank, which, I repeat, not even Trek Basher extraordinaire Mike Wong used.

[Baffalo]

May I point to the Battle of New Orleans? Andrew Jackson and his volunteers were able to hold a fortified position against an enemy advancing directly towards his line, time and again, without changing tactics. Given enough ammunition and a good enough defensive position, a group can hold out indefinitely. Enough of these points, and there's nothing the Borg can do with drones alone.

Battle of Thermopylae, indefeatable defensive position, yet they lost since the enemy found a way to flank them. Drones all over the ship, outnumbering the remaining crew 3:1 or even 6:1, means no single safe position in the initial phase. No, it's no that easy. I crippled the SD and its crew on purpose because I know that in a fair fight, it'd be a one-sided smackdown.

The objective of the SD crew is to repel the invaders and get repair crews to the engines, weapon and shield systems that have been put off-line by the rough ride into the Trek Dimension as fast as possible, before the Borg do their thing there. They can't stay passive like you propose.

Crippling the ISD is certainly going to make the job easier from the Borg point of view, but don't discount the ability of the Borg. Borg ships are bigger, they do not have central areas dedicated to specific tasks, and they are powerful. If an ISD were trapped, and the Borg able to get close enough with sufficient numbers, they will get aboard.

When the Borg beam aboard, confusion will naturally erupt as security tries to deal with the sudden arrival of hostile boarders. The Borg will need to get organized, and if the stormtroopers aboard have duty stations, they'll naturally take to them. Certain areas of the ship, such as the armory and central corridors, will allow the Imperials to establish points where enough blasters or an E-web can be set up to cut off Borg access to these areas. Bulkheads and internal compartments will limit where the Borg can travel, making flanking actions difficult if next to impossible.

An example comes from A New Hope, when Han, Chewbacca, Luke and Leia are trapped in the cell block and can't get out. Those few stormtroopers were able to pin the four down until they found another way to escape. The Borg would have marched straight at the Imperials, getting mowed down. Even if they did go around, coordinating actions on both sides of a fortified position, even with communications, is hard since you need to keep pressure up on the target so they don't catch on you're circling around. The Borg would only be able to proceed if they overwhelm defenses in other areas, and even then there's only a few routes they can take.

The idea isn't just that the armor can stop the transporter beam, it's that the armor blocks scans. Sensors need to send a stream of particles out, allow them to interact in some manner with the material being scanned, and returned. The denser the material, the more difficult it becomes. The same principle can apply to ground penetrating radar. There's a reason we don't have scans all the way down to the core of the Earth, because material will, over time, impede our ability to scan beyond a certain point. Density plays a major factor in this. Super dense armor makes it difficult for scans to penetrate, and even the Borg know that beaming a drone into a bulkhead does zero good.

Nice to compare SD armor to the crust of an entire planet. Slightly out of proportion, don't you think? Now please show that SD armor is in fact dense enough to block Borg scanrays, because that just sounds like outright wank, which, I repeat, not even Trek Basher extraordinaire Mike Wong used.

The point I'm making involves density. Asteroids and planets have variable density, sometimes loose and sometimes hard. Durasteel is, simply by manufacturing, many times denser than soil and rock. Even ores are less dense, since they are often broken up along veins rather than solid bands through the soil. I'm not saying it's impossible to scan through armor, but it will impede scans. That's the entire purpose, to impede something. And even then, there's a limit to how deep a starship's sensors can penetrate. I'm not trying to say that armor will stop transporters, but it will impede them to some degree. All materials can and will impede transporter ability, and density is a factor.

[Big Phil]

Since you've completely crippled the ISD and wiped out the better part of its crew, of course it's going to be taken. No one is arguing that the ISD could defend itself against Borg indefinitely. Eventually the crew will have to sleep, after all. But the argument that the Borg will waste hundreds of thousands of drones in uncreative, frontal assaults against the ISD's crew until they finally overwhelm them is a concession that the Borg could never take a fully operational ISD. Given the incompetence of the Borg, I would expect them to require far more than 60,000-120,000 drones to take the ISD... probably more like the crews of several dozen cubes all transporting over simultaneously. Eventually enough of them would get lucky and be able to kill off the crew, but the losses would be horrendous.

But that's beside the point. You are stating that in Dark Frontier, the Borg successfully used the tactic of "transporting a crew into bio extraction chambers," is that correct? I've looked up that episode, and nowhere in multiple wiki's is that tactic even mentioned. It could have happened on screen and simply not made it to the wikis, but that seems odd. But even if it did occur in the episode, you still haven't defined exactly how it could be used here. What are the lower limits of Borg transport? They can go through Federation shields, but that doesn't mean they can transport through Imperial shields. How many Imps could they transport at a time? What's to prevent the Imperials from shooting from wherever they end up?

[Metahive]

I've looked up that episode, and nowhere in multiple wiki's is that tactic even mentioned.

It's what we get to see on screen. Species #XYZ has a super special weapon that pierces borg shields and Seven proposes *technobabble* that spoils their fun. Immediately afterward the Queen sends Seven off to oversee the assimilation process and we get to see the captured aliens "processed". I mean, what else does that mean as them having beamed them off their ships after their offensive capabilities were neutralized and their shields shot down? I have the episode on DVD and after I've returned to Germany in two weeks I might put up vids or screenshots if there's a demand.
It might be they used the cutting beam to cut and haul bits and pieces off the enemy ships, but the debris field in the end doesn't look like they were that surgical.

But even if it did occur in the episode, you still haven't defined exactly how it could be used here. What are the lower limits of Borg transport?

In Dark Frontier, the crews of 30+ enemy ships are processed by two cubes and a diamond, if they indeed used transporters. I have to watch the episode again to look if there've been given numbers as to how many individuals were assimilated.

They can go through Federation shields, but that doesn't mean they can transport through Imperial shields.

As per the outlines of my scenario engines, shields and weapons of the ISD are down.

But the argument that the Borg will waste hundreds of thousands of drones in uncreative, frontal assaults against the ISD's crew until they finally overwhelm them is a concession that the Borg could never take a fully operational ISD

Never argued against that. My goal is to create a scenario were both sides are on even ground so to speak. It's not easy.

[Purple]

Never argued against that. My goal is to create a scenario were both sides are on even ground so to speak. It's not easy.

The problem with that is that your scenario has become the equivalent of scheduling a football (European) match with a beginner team and a professional team. And than, to make things right and even you take a sledge hammer and work over the professionals knee caps.

I mean, why not simply say that the engines are blown up, the entire crew is dead save for some random redshirt that happens to be trapped under a fallen bulkhead with no food, weapons or supplies and call it a day? Than the bork would surely win.


Or to rephrase that in common language. Your efforts to crate a scenario where both sides would have equal standing and nether would have the advantage has lead to a scenario that while it does fulfill the requirements is so absurdly detached from anything remotely realistic that it is no longer of any real use other than pulp entertainment.

[Metahive]

The problem with that is that your scenario has become the equivalent of scheduling a football (European) match with a beginner team and a professional team. And than, to make things right and even you take a sledge hammer and work over the professionals knee caps.

I'm curious just what exactly your problem here is. A Star Destroyer is vastly superior to a Borg Cube, so in order to not make it a curbstomp, the SD has to be handicapped in some way. What's wrong with concocting a scenario doing just that in order to actually have some sort of contest?

I mean, why not simply say that the engines are blown up, the entire crew is dead save for some random redshirt that happens to be trapped under a fallen bulkhead with no food, weapons or supplies and call it a day? Than the bork would surely win.

Are you implying the Borg suck so much they could only possibly take on an uncrewed Star Destroyer or are you just wasting bandwith with a transparent appeal to ridicule?

Or to rephrase that in common language. Your efforts to crate a scenario where both sides would have equal standing and nether would have the advantage has lead to a scenario that while it does fulfill the requirements is so absurdly detached from anything remotely realistic that it is no longer of any real use other than pulp entertainment.

Someone demands more realism for a story involving a crossover of pulp sci-fi series? Yeah sorry, but neither universe is exactly "hard" sci-fi and Star Wars was indeed based on the old Republic serials. What's so objectionable about "Wormhole ride leaves Star Destroyer crippled in ST Borg Space"? Voyager was centered around a similar premise after all so it's not out of the norm.

[Purple]

Perhaps I failed to phrase it properly.
Allow me to try again.


The amount and type of disadvantages and special conditions that need to be applied to the star destroyer in order to provide both sides an even playing field is such that their presence invalidates any meaningful comparison of the two forces in question.

[Metahive]

The amount and type of disadvantages and special conditions that need to be applied to the star destroyer in order to provide both sides an even playing field is such that their presence invalidates any meaningful comparison of the two forces in question.

Since my goal isn't a "meaningful comparison of the two forces in question" but writing an tense, entertaining scenario, this really is a severly misplaced complaint here. That a single intact SD could annihilate the entire Borg Collective by itself* has already been established here countless of times, so why not try something new?
If you don't have any fundamental objections against nerfing the almighty Imperial Star Destroyer, why don't you try your hand at it?

*heck, some here have even stated a Correlian Corvette could annihilate any space faring power in the whole ST Galaxy by itself.

[Purple]

Well, to answer both your points at once. Because it is about as pointless of an excessive as you can get.
I mean, don't get me wrong. The Borg are my favorite ST faction. But I think it is pointless to write a scenario that requires you to break the enemy in so many ways that it is not funny any more.

It just feels like a plastic artificial match where you scue the odds a bit too much for belief.

[Metahive]

Because it is about as pointless of an excessive as you can get.

Ahem, that could be said about any "Universe X vs Universe Y" contests. Just think about it, it's a pointless, excessive exercise since in the end it's just the writer of any vs. story who alone can casually and ultimately decide who wins and loses, no matter how much "canon evidence" there might stacked against him. What's the worst thing going to happen? Nerds whining about it? The humanity! *cough* KAREN TRAVISS *cough*

It just feels like a plastic artificial match where you scue the odds a bit too much for belief.

I don't find that them that skewed actually. If I were to really skew them, I'd just have the ISD suffer a complete power blackout as soon as they arrive in the ST Galaxy or make Natasi Daala the commanding officer. No, I want it so that both sides have roughly even chances to win this contest and that isn't as easy as it sounds, since taking certain advantages away from one side might tip the scales too much the other way.

[Baffalo]

The amount and type of disadvantages and special conditions that need to be applied to the star destroyer in order to provide both sides an even playing field is such that their presence invalidates any meaningful comparison of the two forces in question.

Since my goal isn't a "meaningful comparison of the two forces in question" but writing an tense, entertaining scenario, this really is a severly misplaced complaint here. That a single intact SD could annihilate the entire Borg Collective by itself* has already been established here countless of times, so why not try something new?
If you don't have any fundamental objections against nerfing the almighty Imperial Star Destroyer, why don't you try your hand at it?

*heck, some here have even stated a Correlian Corvette could annihilate any space faring power in the whole ST Galaxy by itself.

Ok, I call bullshit on that. There is no way in Hell that a single ship, of any capacity, can take on the entire Star Trek galaxy and win. There are multiple reasons why, not the least of which you've just given the power of gods to a ship. The sheer attrition of being alone in enemy territory is going to require constant drills, running your men and equipment harder and leaving them more prone to fatigue and failure. Turbolasers require Tibanna gas to operate, meaning that they'll eventually need to be restocked. There's only so many TIE fighters in the hangar bay.

Further, while I certainly can agree that damaging the ISD will make things easier, all a cube would really need to do is just ram the ISD and let simple physics overwhelm the shields. We know the ISD can take a beating, but when you get a Borg ship travelling at a good fraction of c, then hitting another object, I highly doubt the shields could hold. While we never see the damage from Empire Strikes Back when two ISDs collide, some damage must have occurred. A Cube is much larger and, therefor, probably masses more as well.

Turbolasers will certainly create a living Hell for the Borg, but if the Borg truely decided to ram the ISD, the debris alone would damage the shields considerably, and that's assuming the ISD can completely destroy the Cube. If a good chunk of the ship remains intact, then you're royally screwed.

[Metahive]

Turbolasers will certainly create a living Hell for the Borg, but if the Borg truely decided to ram the ISD, the debris alone would damage the shields considerably, and that's assuming the ISD can completely destroy the Cube. If a good chunk of the ship remains intact, then you're royally screwed.

In case you're not taking up on my scenario, the problem is that the heavy turbolaser batteries on an ISD are truly incredibly massive in firepower and range and the Cube itself isn't armored in any meaningful way which means it would be shredded to tiny bits pretty quickly. You do remember the scene in TESB where an ISD completely vaporizes asteroids with single bolts, don't you? O yeah, and what makes you think the ISD will just stand still and let the cube ram it? ISDs aren't exactly sloths.

[Stark]

How is giving 'the power of gods to a ship' an argument? Proponents would point to the massive firepower and speed advantages; you don't need to tire out your guys when you can just jump 20,000ly outside the galaxy and chill for a while. There are all kinds of problems with the idea, but... not so much that.

And lol at 'borg ship travelling a good fraction of c' btw.