Why the empire might not have the speed advantage after all

[Thanas]

I know it was never determined to my knowledge but do we have the maximum impulse speed for a Star Destroyer or equivalent class? On Empire how far did they millennium falcon have to go strictly on impulse? I always assumed it was still in system but still……..not that the impulse matters anyhow, even if they had no way to get Star charts they could send out Probots and just tail them on a predetermined search pattern. When a probe gets destroyed they could simply send out another on a slightly different course. Of course didn’t they have to have a holonet up to receive real-time only? So they could still receive data albeit not in real-time.

We have a direct quote on the acceleration of an ISD in Tatooine's Ghost, though I don't have the book with me.

[Norade]

No quote, but we know from NJO that an X-wing can reach a high fraction of C on just sublight drive. Not sure what the time required to reach that speed was.

EDIT: Didn't see that Batman had already made that point.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, we know that unchartered space can be traversed at full hyperspace speed from the Courtship of Princess Leia, where Luke was able to guide the Hapan fleet through unchartered space at full speed. Slower speed seems to be a safety concern, not a necessity, especially not in the ST galaxy where routes that work are already used by ST ships.

Besides, there are always hyperspace scouts.

I believe that Outboung flight also had some smugglers making a hyperdrive jump hundreds of light years into the unknown regions in no mor than a couple of hours as I recall, and they were quite clearly "off the lanes"

To parallel what Thanas was hinting at a bit more: people need to stop fixating so heavily on specific examples. We know of both very fast and very slow examples, and there is no reason to assume that they are mutually exclusive. There are lots of factors that will go into a hyperdrive speed, coordinates being a big one. Since we have always known that a big risk in hyperspace travel is realspace interactions (which is to say, collisions, but this can mean not only big collisons like with a planet, but a series of smaller collisions like passing through a nebula or a succession of small impacts.) this means that it is important for SW ships to find ways to avoid or minimize those dangers. This can include:

- Good Nav shields. Clearly if you have good shields you can survive or deflect such impacts better without reducing overall speed (hinted at in a few sources, the Lando Calrissian novels an dthe Swarm War novels most immediately come to mind.) even when it comes to plowing through stuff like nebulae.

- Good sensors: Self explanatory. More time to react means more time to avoid obstales (or get out of hyperspace before you collide.)

- Good engines: another obvious one. The better the hyperdrive the faster you go. What may not be obvious, however, is that higher speeds may very well carry drawbacks in some form: They may take up more internal space, or they are more maintenance intensive (the Falcon is a very good example of this.) Maybe it consumes more power than other models, which could be either costly or may cut down on potential range - we know starships (even warships) have dramatically different hyperdrive ranges, after all. Good engines may also allow for greater mobility, given certain circumstnaces (a good nav computer.)

- Good computers: A good nav computer allows a ship to plot courses faster and more accurately, as well as probably allowing a ship to use its engines better to avoid hazards (changing course in hyperspace, for example. Some ships can do this but others can't.)

- Good coordinates. This is perhaps the biggest/most common factor, since it can be achieved in lots of ways. One way is a good nav computer, but that is not the only one. Getting info from other travellers (via subspace or holonet/hyperwave) can do this, especially for civilian traffic.

Hyperlanes: Hyperlanes are not neccesarily fixed travel points like "jump points" that prevail in certain kinds of science fiction (EG Wing commander), but they tend to be more like the Hyperspace of Honorverse or B5 or the Warp in 40K - you can essentially travel anywhere, through it, but how fast (or safely) you can can be affected by alot of factors, and there are some "routes" that are better than others. And like the above example, those "routes" are often going to be the most heavily travelled, commonly known, and probably safest means of getting around the galaxy, but they are by no means the only routes. (We know that alot of specific groups had their own routes that were not for public consumption: The wookiees did, the Jedi did, the Sith did, etc.) This also tends to colour the perception of "unknown regions" and "unexplored portions" of the galaxy - again the public may think them unexplored but that is not neccesarily the case for others.

The biggest drawback that the Empire will ever have in a military situation in invading another galaxy is that the place will not only not be mapped, but that they won't have an existing network in place for facilitaitng information (EG no holonet, no subspace networks, etc.) So yes, there invariably will be some slowdown in hyperdrive speed. It is not an insurmountable problem, however, since we know that starships cna serve as holonet/hyperwave nodes (The CIS shadowfeeds for example) and failing that there is always subspace (which is still pretty damn fast. It will just mean they need to use alot more of it.) And mapping will be solved one way or another sooner or later.

[DarthCelestial]

Allright, here's a thing: Han Solo was able to make the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs by jumping through the Maw, and if I recall correctly he did it without previous navicomp data. I may be wrong because I just rented the book from the library 'cause I was low on cash right then. But if Han Solo could plot a course through the Maw, wouldn't advanced Imp stuff be a lot more capable of plotting courses through the comparatively serene Milky Way? And Probe Droids have yet to be ruled out (as in, they won't be.)

[Baffalo]

I just read through all these posts and I definately must agree with all of the information. But, just to further nail the coffin lid shut, I'll explain with physics why the Empire wouldn't be that hard pressed to travel from star to star.

First of all, it's something called Triangulation. Triangulation is the use of angles and distances already known to calculate the location of another, unknown object. The illustration shows what I mean.



Let's say that the Empire has three hyperdrive capable ships, and it sends all three on 90o paths away from each other. Since the Empire already knows how fast their hyperdrives are, they can say "Go approximately 1.5 seconds", before stopping and reading the angle change between what they previously had the star at. The three can then, using known distances and angles, compute the exact location of a star and then safely jump to that system, even if it's far away.

Another method would be to use known brightness stars to measure where a star is in relation to a star of known brightness. NASA uses this method for stars very far away, and can obtain a reasonable distance of stars based on how bright certain objects in the night sky are.

So we already have reasonable ways of detecting where stars are, but what about the random junk floating around in space? I'm sure you're going to scream this at your computer any second. So let's do a little calculation.

Assuming we only go out to the orbit of Neptune, at a distance of 4.503e09km from the sun, that gives us a volume for the solar system of approximately 3.826e29km^3. Now, adding up the volume of all the planets and the sun nets us a volume of 1.4143e18km^3. The vast difference in the volume of the entire system compared to the volume taken up by the sun and planets would be even greater in the emptiness of deep space.

So locating planets is easy, even over the vast distance of space, and the odds of hitting anything is extremely low. Given that of course sensors are much better, there's no doubt that the only thing slowing the Empire down would be trying to locate key planets. Since of course any captured starship, starbase or planet would no doubt give them a hint at their next target's location, the invasion would only go faster after the initial time taken to locate the first planet.

[Solauren]

This debate is stupid.

When the Empire arrives in the Star Wars galaxy, they won't jump blindly, they'll launch hyperspace capable probe droids.

You know, the ones Darth Vader was using in the Empire Strikes Back to find Luke + the Rebel.

They'll eventually map out a hyperdrive route to a FTL capable civilization, and capture ships defending a planet.

Suddenly, they have maps of the region, and can plot hyperspace routes. And if they got say, a Romulan ship, they now know where several major worlds of the neighbouring powers.

The Empire will still have a massive speed advantage. It just won't be 'over night conquest' of the galaxy.
Probably about 1 day per power the size of the Federation. so figure 6 months at the most.

[Baffalo]

The Empire will still have a massive speed advantage. It just won't be 'over night conquest' of the galaxy.
Probably about 1 day per power the size of the Federation. so figure 6 months at the most.

While I certainly agree that the Federation and other powers would fall to the Empire, I don't think it'd be that fast either. The reason for this is because the Empire would need to destroy all remnents of the Federation fleet, which from the discussion on their fleet size, means several thousand ships. I'm not saying it won't be done or that the Empire will have any problem, but concentrating the Federation fleet will be difficult, since the Federation would know their own territory and where they can regroup.

So you have to slowly wipe out the Federation fleet, and you still need to actually land troops. The Federation High Council will certainly surrender quickly, but I imagine some commanders will resist. This resistance will need to be crushed, diverting your forces. And the other powers, while some will certainly seek to ally themselves with the Empire, will still be a threat. The Klingons will, no doubt, try to attack. So you need to have adequate forces in Federation space and be ready to attack another power as necessary. So while I don't think the Empire will encounter much resistance, if you allow the Federation to get enough forces to bear on a single target (which any proper resistance organization will certainly try to do), they will succeed. Even the Empire can fail.

I know I'm just rehashing what's been described in detail throughout the site, but I don't think the entire Federation will just fold overnight.

</rant>

[Batman]

It all depends on how serious the Empire is about conquering the Federation (or the rest of the AQ powers, since they're here already), or if it is even the Empire that's doing the invasion given the CSA easily could do it if they deemed it eventually profitable (and a suitable connection between the two universe is at hand, I'm assuming the usual wormhole scenario).
The question is a) how much forces are they willing to spend and b) how fast can they get them through the wormhole.
The remains of Starfleet (and, eventually, the other AQ powers, should it come to that), or the fleets of the other AQ powers AS you are conquering the Federation are, to put it bluntly, a nonissue. At best they can inconvenience you by pursuing a Scorched Earth policy to deny you the planets you try to conquer, which would actually aid the CSA as they no longer have to pretend to treat decently the natives that are no longer there and can just stripmine the planets.
The moment the imperial side can put a single Carrack in every conquered system there's jack all the Fed remnants can do to retake it (actually there's nothing they can do to begin with due to not having any army with which to do it even if they had one to begin with and could still get at it), and by Wars standards, the Federation is incredibly tiny.
The space combat angle of this doesn't really figure into it, a minuscule Wars force can obliterate Starfleet in very short time. The question is what is the Wars side willing to do to conquer, garrison and guard the planets.

Food for thought-as per Picard's comments from FC, the Katana fleet alone would allow me to park a Dreadnought heavy cruiser in every (presumably important) Federation system and STILL have 50 left over to hunt down the sorry remnants of Starfleet, every last one of which could happily ignore all of a complete Starfleet attacking it at once.

The chasing down of Starfleet's remnant's would be done, but only because they're a nuisance, not because they're actually a threat, and because it doesn't really require the commitment of anything larger than a corvette.

[Thanas]

I really doubt the Empire will try and outright conquer anything. If they are led by a smart commander like Thrawn or Parck or anybody with UR experience, they will seize the wormhole, park a few defence stations or an ISD next to the nearest planet and then proceed to form alliances/demand tribute. Why conquer the federation? They got nothing to offer besides a few pieces of interesting tech (replicators), slaves and raw materials, all of which can be obtained just by trade or sheer intimidation - or defence treaties. How much do you think the Federation or other races would pay to be eternally safe from the borg, the breen etc?

[Baffalo]

A very good point. I certainly agree that the Empire would have to weigh how much effort they want to devote towards conquering the Federation vs. how much they expect to get in return. Because in the long run, even the Imperial fleet has to answer to a budget. Even if that budget is in the trillions of credits or higher, they still have to justify it to their superiors. Since the AQ poses no threat militarily, the issue of how much effort to devote towards them would be weighed against the expected returns.

The AQ is rich in worlds, sure, but they are using manufacturing techniques that are incompatable with current Imperial infrastructure. They can produce goods, and they can certainly manufacture large starship components, but Starfleet uses completely different components than what even the simplest Imperial vessel uses. So not only would you need to invade, you'd have to devote time and money towards overhauling the entire manufacturing infrastructure of the Federation. And while i know it's non-canon, in the game Birth of the Federation, each empire used different manufacturing techniques and even different farming methods.

So really, the military wouldn't be the only one invading the AQ, but they'd just be the first wave. The second, and possibly bigger wave, would be the droids and bureaucrats and accountants, brought in to convert the entire economy over to one that the Empire can then use to pay for their invasion.

And Thanus raises a good point. The Empire wouldn't need to directly conquer anyone. All they'd have to do is roll up, knock the Federation around a bit, then sit back and demand tribute in the form of raw materuals, slaves, etc. and just demand enough to cover the cost of stationing the fleet there. It all comes down to simply justifying the cost of the forces involved.

[Thanas]

Why would they even need to knock an AQ power around? Just show up with an ISD during one of the Borg invasion attempts or during the Dominion war, destroy the threat and then invite people to trade with the benevolent empire for continued protection.

If DS9 proved anything, it is that the AQ powers are very, very interested in trade with unknown superpowers.

[fallendragon]

They are unlikely to need to, but I can't see them passing up the oppertunity to do so either, not only is it a way to figure out what AQ people actually have, but i can't see Human High Culture fiting in with the Kiligions being better farmers then the Federation.

[Baffalo]

They are unlikely to need to, but I can't see them passing up the oppertunity to do so either, not only is it a way to figure out what AQ people actually have, but i can't see Human High Culture fiting in with the Kiligions being better farmers then the Federation.

I don't know if this is a reference to my mention of different farming methods listed above or not but I'll go ahead and ask you to clarify. Are you implying that the Empire might take over the Federation just to ensure that humans remain at the forefront in both their own galaxy and this new one?

[Thanas]

Why would they if Human High Culture is largely a front and even the Emperor has several nonhumans acting as his aides?

[Eleas]

Personally, I'm with Thanas on this. A smart Empire won't be conquering if it can help it. The strategy would probably be far more focused on economic imperialism, which they would pursue rather in the same way multinational corporations exploit the third world. They'd give away trinkets for natural resources the Federation and others have yet to begin tapping.

"You use antimatter? Right then, would you be interested in bringing five hundred tons of the stuff with you when you leave this meeting? Good, good. Oh, by the way, you don't seem to have any use for that spatial phenomenon over there, and we'd like exclusive rights to, uh, study it. It's not strictly important, really, but we'd like to see if, um, singularity clusters in this galaxy behave differently from our galaxy. Sign here and we'll be very grateful."

By this method, the Empire would be able to largely avoid revealing the extent of their military advantage. They'd easily be able to coexist alongside cultures like the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians or the Federation. And when their Trek trade partners realize that they're trading glass pearls for oil rights, the Empire (by now certainly in possession of sufficient navigational data) would already have enough information about local politics and technology to make resistance a suicidal venture.

Once the first "trade partner" who decides to "violate the terms of contract" has been turned into an object lesson, the rest of the Trek races should fall back in line, barring a few idealists and activists. Or, as the Empire would label them, terrorists and rebels.




I see I missed a reply earlier.

Eleas, what are you basing that theory on?

and have you concidered this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Probe_dr ... note-GG3-0

I'm basing the theory on the movies and the EU, broadly. Since the demonstrated traffic of a galaxy-spanning civilization must be staggeringly vast, the measure of a hyperspace lane is likely to be the safe throughput. I.e., how collision-free is the route, how much speed can we permit and still keep control over the traffic throughout the route, at which point does the percentage of lost ships become unfeasible, etc?

This is the same equation we face today in any traffic situation, whether it be motorways or the Internet. A nontrivial chunk of the aggregate galactic trade passes through a major hyperspace trade route. Just as we cannot completely eliminate traffic accidents today, so there must be congestion, collision, and routing errors on any hyperlane.

Your objection (from what I can tell) is akin to arguing that since Germany has accurate maps, we could expect no car accidents on the autobahn.

Why would they if Human High Culture is largely a front and even the Emperor has several nonhumans acting as his aides?

Also true. It wouldn't be the basis of an invasion, I should think, although as has happened before High Human Culture does make a decent motivational tool once the shit has hit the fan.

[Thanas]

Personally, I'm with Thanas on this. A smart Empire won't be conquering if it can help it. The strategy would probably be far more focused on economic imperialism, which they would pursue rather in the same way multinational corporations exploit the third world. They'd give away trinkets for natural resources the Federation and others have yet to begin tapping.

"You use antimatter? Right then, would you be interested in bringing five hundred tons of the stuff with you when you leave this meeting? Good, good. Oh, by the way, you don't seem to have any use for that spatial phenomenon over there, and we'd like exclusive rights to, uh, study it. It's not strictly important, really, but we'd like to see if, um, singularity clusters in this galaxy behave differently from our galaxy. Sign here and we'll be very grateful."

By this method, the Empire would be able to largely avoid revealing the extent of their military advantage. They'd easily be able to coexist alongside cultures like the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians or the Federation. And when their Trek trade partners realize that they're trading glass pearls for oil rights, the Empire (by now certainly in possession of sufficient navigational data) would already have enough information about local politics and technology to make resistance a suicidal venture.

Once the first "trade partner" who decides to "violate the terms of contract" has been turned into an object lesson, the rest of the Trek races should fall back in line, barring a few idealists and activists. Or, as the Empire would label them, terrorists and rebels.

And this lesson does not even have to be military. The Empire can just flood the market with cheap goods, which just happen to be the same as the primary export goods of said nation - voila, said nation has to deal with a long spiral of depression which only the empire can help them out. Trade warfare is much more realistic than the Empire going about nuking stuff. Of course, this presumes Palpatine puts a smart commander in charge of that effort, not a Tarkin.

[Eleas]

And this lesson does not even have to be military. The Empire can just flood the market with cheap goods, which just happen to be the same as the primary export goods of said nation - voila, said nation has to deal with a long spiral of depression which only the empire can help them out. Trade warfare is much more realistic than the Empire going about nuking stuff. Of course, this presumes Palpatine puts a smart commander in charge of that effort, not a Tarkin.

Yes. I think the Emperor's conduct so far shows this. He elevated Tarkin in order to keep order among systems that were the military and industrial heavyweights of the Empire; these systems - and their leaders - already had a pretty good idea of the Emperor's ruthlessness. When he wanted to bring the Unknown Regions into the Empire, he instead sent Thrawn, who, unlike Tarkin, was a capable unifier able to portray the Empire as a harsh-but-fair protector and trade partner.

[Baffalo]

And this lesson does not even have to be military. The Empire can just flood the market with cheap goods, which just happen to be the same as the primary export goods of said nation - voila, said nation has to deal with a long spiral of depression which only the empire can help them out. Trade warfare is much more realistic than the Empire going about nuking stuff. Of course, this presumes Palpatine puts a smart commander in charge of that effort, not a Tarkin.

Yes. I think the Emperor's conduct so far shows this. He elevated Tarkin in order to keep order among systems that were the military and industrial heavyweights of the Empire; these systems - and their leaders - already had a pretty good idea of the Emperor's ruthlessness. When he wanted to bring the Unknown Regions into the Empire, he instead sent Thrawn, who, unlike Tarkin, was a capable unifier able to portray the Empire as a harsh-but-fair protector and trade partner.

I certainly hadn't considered these points and I'm certainly glad to have heard about them. It provides new insight into how the Empire would deal with the situation, assuming a reasonable commander is put into place. I believe a single quote sums up both of your statements perfectly.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

[Darth Hoth]

I thought Thrawn was put in charge of the Unknown Regions because the Emperor and/or court factions wanted to be rid of him - along the lines of "Send him off to somewhere unimportant and unpleasant"?

Or have I missed a ret-con, again?

[Eleas]

I thought Thrawn was put in charge of the Unknown Regions because the Emperor and/or court factions wanted to be rid of him - along the lines of "Send him off to somewhere unimportant and unpleasant"?

Or have I missed a ret-con, again?

Not really. It's always stated (by people other than Palpatine) that he reserves contempt and hatred for nonhumans. Palpatine, who trained (and expressed pride in) Darth Maul. Who was himself trained by Plagueis, whom he described as "powerful and wise," and seems to regard with a twisted, smug affection. Who had numerous close, vital agents who were nonhumans, and never personally seemed to focus upon heritage at all in either word or deed.

Palpatine developed his concept of the strong ruling the weak, defining "the weak" as "those who cannot feel the Force." He sent Thrawn (fully aware and now certain of Thrawn's extraordinary abilities) away in "exile", giving him the tools and mandate to conquer a large swath of the galaxy. He furthermore invested his personal power into (non-human) Force adepts during the Byss offensive, when secrecy and ability was paramount.

Try as I might, I can't really reconcile this with Palpatine himself being bothered to care about species. Sure, High Human Culture was undoubtedly an excellent tool for him to use in order to foster bigotry and incite hatred, but it seems ludicrous that he would buy into the charade himself. No direct source appears to indicate he did, aside from after the fact speculation made by not-very-neutral parties.


EDIT: added the word "source".

[Thanas]

To be honest, I always saw HHC as a tool he wielded, nothing more. It is quite easy to say "See? I am letting you promote your stuff with Compnor and I am letting you enslave those inferior aliens" to humans (co-incidentally, it also keeps the hutts, who are the biggest slavers we know of, happy) while he himself can surround himself with aliens and keep the others in line by saying "Hey, I am no bigot. Look at my assistants and my staff".

As long as he is able to paint the nasty stuff on others, he can benefit from it freely. Sure, the really informed people and politicians probably know what is going on, but the galactic populace? Probably not. Especially when a lot of the HHC stuff is sold as security measures (like the alien quarter of Coruscant), standardisation (humans only in the Imperial Navy) etc. HHC is a very useful tool to gain the support of the wealthy racist and the business elite of the core.

[fallendragon]

My apoligies I never ment to imply that Palpatine, HIMSELF, was HHC, but most of the rest of the Imperial higher ups were IIRC, and frankly I can't see Palpatine being bothered to control this directly (hell, maybe, after some of the truly differant Trek items pop up, but not to start), and well the average Moff I find rather likely to start knocking heads, particularly the Klingons.

[Connor MacLeod]

Allright, here's a thing: Han Solo was able to make the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs by jumping through the Maw, and if I recall correctly he did it without previous navicomp data. I may be wrong because I just rented the book from the library 'cause I was low on cash right then. But if Han Solo could plot a course through the Maw, wouldn't advanced Imp stuff be a lot more capable of plotting courses through the comparatively serene Milky Way? And Probe Droids have yet to be ruled out (as in, they won't be.)

That was, as I recall, a rather common smuggling route. Han's main accomplishment there was more of a "speed run" over the course by taking a gamble. I imagine the data is common amongst smugglers. Being able to plot a course does not guarantee it is safe though (as I recall from REbel Dawn, it wasn't safe, either.)

[Connor MacLeod]

To be honest, I always saw HHC as a tool he wielded, nothing more. It is quite easy to say "See? I am letting you promote your stuff with Compnor and I am letting you enslave those inferior aliens" to humans (co-incidentally, it also keeps the hutts, who are the biggest slavers we know of, happy) while he himself can surround himself with aliens and keep the others in line by saying "Hey, I am no bigot. Look at my assistants and my staff".

As long as he is able to paint the nasty stuff on others, he can benefit from it freely. Sure, the really informed people and politicians probably know what is going on, but the galactic populace? Probably not. Especially when a lot of the HHC stuff is sold as security measures (like the alien quarter of Coruscant), standardisation (humans only in the Imperial Navy) etc. HHC is a very useful tool to gain the support of the wealthy racist and the business elite of the core.

Pretty much. Palpatine at his core was a manipulator, and he pretty much used anything and anyone he saw to further his own ends. It created problems in terms of efficienciy,b ut he evidently didn't mind (he lived for the challenge, at least according to what Publius wrote as I recall.) so he would use anything - human prejudices (The human high culture) and the people who supported it, but also use nonhumans/near humans in any way he saw fit if it suited his ends.

[Baffalo]

That was, as I recall, a rather common smuggling route. Han's main accomplishment there was more of a "speed run" over the course by taking a gamble. I imagine the data is common amongst smugglers. Being able to plot a course does not guarantee it is safe though (as I recall from REbel Dawn, it wasn't safe, either.)

The last book of the Han Solo trilogy explains that the Maw was a common route, hence several patrol ships that began chasing the Falcon and Han shaved a few parsecs off the Maw trying to outrun the Empire. He succeeded, but still got boarded, requiring him to eject the spice. He goes back to try and find it, but can't, hence his debt to Jabba the Hutt. I don't think even Han would try the same route again, since he did it because it was make the run and try to survive, or piss off Jabba and almost certainly get killed for failing him.