Exactly how many years of a gap?

[Junghalli]

You know, the Borg cubes as presented in Q Who seem to be designed as self-sufficient generation ships, complete with facilities to clone up new generations of drones, despite the fact that with transwarp drive there's really no reason for them to be designed for such super long voyages. I find myself kind of liking the idea that maybe they were originally built as STL generation ships designed to go out on voyages of assimilation that would last centuries or millenia, and then having been refitted with warp drive at some later point.

As for the OP, I would point out it's really not the absolute number of years that matter so much. The Culture is only a few thousand years old but it could easily bet any Wars or Trek factions with the possible exception of the Q and other ST "omnipotents". Or, to use a more down to Earth analogy, a Neanderthal who lived 30,000 years ago and one who lived 300,000 years ago are seperated by much more time than a guy today and one who lived 300 years ago, but the latter pair saw much more change between their lifespans. Wars is a lot more advanced than Trek, but maybe not necessarily simply because it's older.

[Kythnos]

As for the OP, I would point out it's really not the absolute number of years that matter so much. The Culture is only a few thousand years old but it could easily bet any Wars or Trek factions with the possible exception of the Q and other ST "omnipotents". Or, to use a more down to Earth analogy, a Neanderthal who lived 30,000 years ago and one who lived 300,000 years ago are seperated by much more time than a guy today and one who lived 300 years ago, but the latter pair saw much more change between their lifespans. Wars is a lot more advanced than Trek, but maybe not necessarily simply because it's older.

I agree completely with this point and have been trying to figure out a way to express it properly. As an Illustration cultures in China, Africa and South America where technologically superior to the Cultures in Europe for centuries. However those cultures entered there “Dark Ages”, or periods of stagnation at different times. Allowing the European Societies to gain dominance during the age of imperialism.
By extension the same could/would be true for both Star Trek and Star Wars societies.

[Darth Hoth]

As for the OP, I would point out it's really not the absolute number of years that matter so much. The Culture is only a few thousand years old but it could easily bet any Wars or Trek factions with the possible exception of the Q and other ST "omnipotents". Or, to use a more down to Earth analogy, a Neanderthal who lived 30,000 years ago and one who lived 300,000 years ago are seperated by much more time than a guy today and one who lived 300 years ago, but the latter pair saw much more change between their lifespans. Wars is a lot more advanced than Trek, but maybe not necessarily simply because it's older.

Do not forget the Wars omnipotents; Jerec takes offence . . .

[Akkleptos]

I'd love to hear how that refutes my statement that since they just assimilated some key technologies at some point in the recent past, it's far more significant that they spent such a huge period of time TOTALLY SUCKING.

Well, Mankind has also spent most of its 2,000,000-year existence totally sucking, from a high-tech point of view (considering that evidence of intelligent use of fire by humans dates back to 1,000,000 years ago, and evidence of the development of agriculture has been dated at about 10,000 BC in the Fertile Crescent area in the Middle East). Without significant breakthroughs in material technology (come by many times through the availability of resources or contact with other cultures), thought paradigms (say, the formulation of the Scientific Method) or out-of-context problems, a culture or civilisation can be stagnant for millenia (Have the Borg EVER had an understanding of the Scientific Method, seeing that they can apparently advance their technology only through assimilation?).

About the Borg - I think it should be pointed out that we don't know the reasons for their apparent 99,000 years of stagnation (as far as I know). Maybe they gained some technology that gave them a decisive advantage over their opponents. Maybe their goals changed, and the whole assimilation thing is just a recent development in their culture (for lack of a better term). Maybe they didn't know there were other civilizations out there to assimilate until some unlucky explorer stumbled on their home system in the Middle Ages.

Given their apparent lack of creativity (the Collective's vast mind outperformed by Voyager's EMH lol) I wouldn't be at all surprised if they just sat in one system for 99,000 years thinking FTL was impossible and STL not worth it until some poor bastard stumbled into their system in a warp capable ship and got himself captured by them somehow.

I, for one, suscribe to this theory, pending correction from the ST canon. Still, in their present state (VOY), it seems remote to me they could be any kind of technological parity with SW in the foreseeable future.

[bz249]

I agree completely with this point and have been trying to figure out a way to express it properly. As an Illustration cultures in China, Africa and South America where technologically superior to the Cultures in Europe for centuries. However those cultures entered there “Dark Ages”, or periods of stagnation at different times. Allowing the European Societies to gain dominance during the age of imperialism.
By extension the same could/would be true for both Star Trek and Star Wars societies.

Well South American societies may be more advanced than European ones (they were better organized) but from the technological point of view they were still in the neolitic era when the conquistadors arrived... but the point is right. Anyway it also shows that a culture could be much more advanced in certain field, yet beaten badly because they have inferior military gear. So the gap can only be measured in years if we remain in the same culture.

[Stark]

Well, Mankind has also spent most of its 2,000,000-year existence totally sucking, from a high-tech point of view (considering that evidence of intelligent use of fire by humans dates back to 1,000,000 years ago, and evidence of the development of agriculture has been dated at about 10,000 BC in the Fertile Crescent area in the Middle East). Without significant breakthroughs in material technology (come by many times through the availability of resources or contact with other cultures), thought paradigms (say, the formulation of the Scientific Method) or out-of-context problems, a culture or civilisation can be stagnant for millenia (Have the Borg EVER had an understanding of the Scientific Method, seeing that they can apparently advance their technology only through assimilation?).

So if you ignore that we're talking about them starting at an advanced technological point (ie, they already have their huge swath of primitive history behind them), they're still only awful and not laughable? I don't get it. Is this a massive red herring, since I was comparing Borg development post-warp to Klingon development or human development?

Your claim that the Borg designed computers without an understanding of the scientific method is absurd. The borg were once cavemen, remember? They're stupid NOW because of their retarded doctrine and probable limitations of their architecture; saying they were ALWAYS shambling, moronic zombies is totally absurd.

[Akkleptos]

So if you ignore that we're talking about them starting at an advanced technological point (ie, they already have their huge swath of primitive history behind them), they're still only awful and not laughable? I don't get it. Is this a massive red herring, since I was comparing Borg development post-warp to Klingon development or human development?

Well, AFAIK there's no hard canon on the origin of the Borg (I might be grossly mistaken, as I'm no Trekkie), but the lack of development over such an extensive period of time could be attributable to this popular explanation of the origin of the Borg:

In the game Star Trek: Legacy, an alternate explanation was given to the creation of the Borg which states that the probe V'Ger created the Collective to serve as its heralds in its search for the creator. However, the creation of the Borg Queen resulted in the creation of an entity that abandoned the original intent of V'Ger. This is also similar to the Shatnerverse version of events.

What if they were created without the "drive" to seek out explanations to physical phenomena and to research and develop technology on their own, what with them being unimaginative and seemingly incapable of original thought?

Your claim that the Borg designed computers without an understanding of the scientific method is absurd. The borg were once cavemen, remember? They're stupid NOW because of their retarded doctrine and probable limitations of their architecture; saying they were ALWAYS shambling, moronic zombies is totally absurd.

Yeah, if they once were cavemen, then there's no excuse other than a Medieval Europe-like cultural stagnation (only that theirs has lasted tens of thousands of years). And, yes, their doctrine is retarded.

[bz249]

Yeah, if they once were cavemen, then there's no excuse other than a Medieval Europe-like cultural stagnation (only that theirs has lasted tens of thousands of years). And, yes, their doctrine is retarded.

What's wrong with Medieval Europe? It was a thrieving period from technological point on view... indeed a mini tech revolution, with much imporvement in the agriculture, transportation, applied mechanics, metallurgy and architechture (it was the Strassbourg Cathedral which took the title from the pyramids as the world tallest man-made structure). What was different of course that they used the Bible as the source of axioms for logical debates rather than some phylosophical thoughts (which has also nil value from the point of natural science). However the rules of logic are the same no matter what are the axioms.

There were lots of tech stagnation periods in human hystory (before the neolitic revolution, ancient Egypt) but Medieval Europe was not one of them.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

About the Borg, though, wasn't their a Voyager episode where they met some cryogenically frozen aliens from about ten thousand years back who said that the Borg were limited territorially in their time? Which suggests that the Borg have undergone a rapid expansion in recent history.

That was the Vaadwaur, who went into cryogenic stasis after their homeworld was devastated by war. They were supposed to only be in there for 5 years, but something went wrong and were only woken by Voyager nearly 900 years afterwards. The Vaadwaur said that at that time the Borg had only assimilated a handful of systems back then. Seven of Nine said the Collective's memory was "fragmented" from that long ago.

[Akkleptos]

Yeah, if they once were cavemen, then there's no excuse other than a Medieval Europe-like cultural stagnation (only that theirs has lasted tens of thousands of years). And, yes, their doctrine is retarded.

What's wrong with Medieval Europe? It was a thrieving period from technological point on view... indeed a mini tech revolution, with much imporvement in the agriculture, transportation, applied mechanics, metallurgy and architechture (it was the Strassbourg Cathedral which took the title from the pyramids as the world tallest man-made structure). What was different of course that they used the Bible as the source of axioms for logical debates rather than some phylosophical thoughts (which has also nil value from the point of natural science). However the rules of logic are the same no matter what are the axioms.

There were lots of tech stagnation periods in human hystory (before the neolitic revolution, ancient Egypt) but Medieval Europe was not one of them.

Okay, okay, maybe I should have said "Early Middle Ages". And, compared to the Roman Antiquity, it wasn't stagnation... it was a HUGE leap backwards!