Superior SW navigation-tech

[Diplomat]

In "Wrath of Khan," we see that Trek has about the worst navigation-techology imaginable; basically it seems that a starship simply warps to a star-system, and locates and counts the planets from the most exterior planet-- until it finds the planet-number it's looking for, having no idea where the planet is supposed to be.

This was seen when the Reliant warped into the Tau Ceti system, it just went to the outmost planet- since its most recent maps indicated that this was Ceti Alpha VI; however this planet had exploded after the most recent updates of the star-maps, and and likewise the orbit of Ceti Alpha V seems to have been somehow shifted. Therefore the Reliant didn't notice such massive "elephants" of a planet missing, a shifted orbit, massive changes in the system etc.-- all this despite its being a top-notch Federation research-vessel.

In contrast, in SW: Ep. IV we see that the Falcon, a fairly small ship with no long-range sensors (other than a cockpit-window), is able to travel precisely from Tatooine to Alderaan's position-- even though Alderaan is no more (thus leading to Han Solo's confusion when he arrives, only to land in an asteroid-field, despite that the ship's navigation-system indicated that he was in a precise location where he should be orbiting Alderaan).

In contrast, the Federation still seems to be navigating with sextants and rope.

[Samuel]

In "Wrath of Khan," we see that Trek has about the worst navigation-techology imaginable; basically it seems that a starship simply warps to a star-system, and locates and counts the planets from the most exterior planet-- until it finds the planet-number it's looking for, having no idea where the planet is supposed to be.

What is wrong with this method? As long as they arrive above the plane of the orbits, it should work fine. Remember that the Feds computer technology in TOS was pretty simplistic- they had AIs, but at the same time they had to go over much of the data manually- in The Way to Eden Spock has to look at the charts and try to find the gravitational attraction of a planet. In real life we would have a computer do that.

(other than a cockpit-window)

The Falcon knew that Star Destroyers were pursuing than and unless you are suggesting they were in sight of the rear-view mirror Han had some FTL sensor up his sleeve. Not to mention detection of the Ties in the vicinity of the Death Star- impressive considering the jamming.

[Diplomat]

In "Wrath of Khan," we see that Trek has about the worst navigation-techology imaginable; basically it seems that a starship simply warps to a star-system, and locates and counts the planets from the most exterior planet-- until it finds the planet-number it's looking for, having no idea where the planet is supposed to be.

What is wrong with this method? As long as they arrive above the plane of the orbits, it should work fine.

It's pretty slow and primitive compared to SW, and shows that they can't account for the motion of planets to arrive at them precisely where the planet should be-- and can't even notice one missing, massive changes to the system, etc.

Rather, they'd have to enter the system, scan the whole system to find the planets, find the planet they're looking for, and then go to it at impulse-power-- pretty tedious, particularly if it was on the other side of the solar-system. And at the same time, they don't even consult the existing maps of the system (which would have gave it away right there, that everything was different).

Remember that the Feds computer technology in TOS was pretty simplistic- they had AIs, but at the same time they had to go over much of the data manually- in The Way to Eden Spock has to look at the charts and try to find the gravitational attraction of a planet. In real life we would have a computer do that.

It was simply an unexplored region of space-- the Enterprise's 5-year mission was to explore new worlds; their stellar cartography was also primitive-- it was only about 50 years after the "time-barrier" was broken. They didn't have millions of years to explore the galaxy like in SW.
Therefore they had to work with primary data, rather than secondary-- which is naturally much more difficult, in that it requires them to do their own research-- particularly since "Eden" turned out to be a purely mythical planet.
In contrast, the Enterprise had already been to the Tau Ceti system 15 years earlier, and likewise already had the system's information in its database.

(other than a cockpit-window)

The Falcon knew that Star Destroyers were pursuing than and unless you are suggesting they were in sight of the rear-view mirror Han had some FTL sensor up his sleeve. Not to mention detection of the Ties in the vicinity of the Death Star- impressive considering the jamming.[/quote]

They weren't "pursuing--" the Tie-fighter was already there, from the Death Star, patrolling the area around Alderaan (which it had just destroyed). When the Falcon showed up, it spotted him, and then fled at full throttle. Han was the one doing the jamming of the Tie Fighter's transmssions-- the Falcon's sensors couldn't even spot the Death Star (other than thinking it was a "small moon) until he got into tractor-range-- even Luke's binoculars would have told him different. Likewise when the Falcon escaped the DS, there were no SD's in the area; otherwise they would have followed the DS to Yavin-- which would have made things interesting for the Rebels.

Han also said that they couldn't track his ship in hyperspace.

[Knife]

It's pretty slow and primitive compared to SW, and shows that they can't account for the motion of planets to arrive at them precisely where the planet should be-- and can't even notice one missing, massive changes to the system, etc.

Rather, they'd have to enter the system, scan the whole system to find the planets, find the planet they're looking for, and then go to it at impulse-power-- pretty tedious, particularly if it was on the other side of the solar-system. And at the same time, they don't even consult the existing maps of the system (which would have gave it away right there, that everything was different).

For starships set up to be, and an organization set up to be explores first and foremost, seems logical to me. Star Trek seems ok with the fact that planet to planet travel takes a bit of time and you just don't zoom from one atmosphere to another instantly.

They weren't "pursuing--" the Tie-fighter was already there, from the Death Star, patrolling the area around Alderaan (which it had just destroyed). When the Falcon showed up, it spotted him, and then fled at full throttle. Han was the one doing the jamming of the Tie Fighter's transmssions-- the Falcon's sensors couldn't even spot the Death Star (other than thinking it was a "small moon) until he got into tractor-range--

You said it yourself; "the area around Alderaan (which it had just destroyed)..." You're talking a dense debris field and a moon sized battlestation.

Han also said that they couldn't track his ship in hyperspace.

True but it was probably hyerbole, since his next statment was more subdued but importent about 'I know a few maneuvers.'

[Samuel]

It's pretty slow and primitive compared to SW, and shows that they can't account for the motion of planets to arrive at them precisely where the planet should be-- and can't even notice one missing, massive changes to the system, etc.

Rather, they'd have to enter the system, scan the whole system to find the planets, find the planet they're looking for, and then go to it at impulse-power-- pretty tedious, particularly if it was on the other side of the solar-system. And at the same time, they don't even consult the existing maps of the system (which would have gave it away right there, that everything was different).

They usually don't have to worry about planets suddenly disappearing. As for the system itslef, it could simply be that it isn't in the records (which is why Khan was dumped there and a survey vessel was exploring it).

It was simply an unexplored region of space-- the Enterprise's 5-year mission was to explore new worlds; their stellar cartography was also primitive-- it was only about 50 years after the "time-barrier" was broken. They didn't have millions of years to explore the galaxy like in SW.

Vulcan has been in space for over a millenia.

Therefore they had to work with primary data, rather than secondary-- which is naturally much more difficult, in that it requires them to do their own research-- particularly since "Eden" turned out to be a purely mythical planet.

It was real- they found it in the episode.

They weren't "pursuing--" the Tie-fighter was already there, from the Death Star, patrolling the area around Alderaan (which it had just destroyed). When the Falcon showed up, it spotted him, and then fled at full throttle. Han was the one doing the jamming of the Tie Fighter's transmssions-- the Falcon's sensors couldn't even spot the Death Star (other than thinking it was a "small moon) until he got into tractor-range-- even Luke's binoculars would have told him different. Likewise when the Falcon escaped the DS, there were no SD's in the area; otherwise they would have followed the DS to Yavin-- which would have made things interesting for the Rebels.

When they were attempting to escape.

[Bounty]

In "Wrath of Khan," we see that Trek has about the worst navigation-techology imaginable; basically it seems that a starship simply warps to a star-system, and locates and counts the planets from the most exterior planet-- until it finds the planet-number it's looking for, having no idea where the planet is supposed to be.

Keep in mind that the only person to state there is actually a planet missing is Khan, who does not have access to any sort of astronomical equipment. Planets don't just explode; for all we know Khan witnessed a - really fricking huge - meteorite impact that shifted the orbits of the planets in the system without breaking one up completely. Implausible, yes, but at least less implausible than a planet spontaneously combusting.

(Come to think of it, what if Ceti Alpha V and VI were a double-planet? Would it be theoretically possible for a meteorite impact - a big one - on VI to wreck V's ecosystem, while still leaving the planets in an altered-but-temporarily-stable orbit?)

[Junghalli]

The whole Ceti Alpha thing is really hard to explain without resorting to gross incompetence on the part of Reliant's sensor officer. The orbitals are going to look different after one planet "explodes" (gets whacked with a freaking huge asteroid/dwarf planet, I guess) and the other has its orbit shifted, and this should be readily discernable just by looking at the way the planets are moving. Even if you ignore that the two planets are going to have different masses and that should be readily detectable, not to mention different terrain features (granted, an event violent enough to shift the orbit might melt the crust - but then how did Khan survive?). Nobody familiar with our solar system and with access to the kind of science equipment a starship should have is going to mistake Earth for Venus just because it's been shifted to a different orbit.

I've half a mind to explain it by suggesting that Khan tried to escape from the planet he was exiled on, failed, ended up crashing on the outer planet, and then lied it about it for some reason. Sure, he doesn't really have much of a reason to lie, but the idea that they could just not notice something like a planet exploding and the orbits getting all messed up is just silly.

[Captain Seafort]

I've half a mind to explain it by suggesting that Khan tried to escape from the planet he was exiled on, failed, ended up crashing on the outer planet, and then lied it about it for some reason. Sure, he doesn't really have much of a reason to lie

Of course he would - he fucked up and didn't want Checkov and Terrell to know. It would imply that Khan Noonien Sigh, superman extrordinaire, was in some way imperfect.

[Junghalli]

Of course he would - he fucked up and didn't want Checkov and Terrell to know. It would imply that Khan Noonien Sigh, superman extrordinaire, was in some way imperfect.

He was about to infect them with the mind control worms anyway, so I figured what they thought of his competence wouldn't really matter, but I suppose it could be an ego thing.

[Solauren]

Or you can just choke it up to the a small bit of bad-writing / plot device.

[The Spartan]

Didn't Kirk at least imply that he knew the other planet had exploded, telling Khan something like he didn't think anyone survived the explosion?

[Junghalli]

Or you can just choke it up to the a small bit of bad-writing / plot device.

Well yeah, I'm pretty sure we all realize the writers probably just didn't know enough science to tell how absurd the idea was. I was talking about in-universe explanations.

[Bounty]

Or you can just choke it up to the a small bit of bad-writing / plot device.

Well yeah, I'm pretty sure we all realize the writers probably just didn't know enough science to tell how absurd the idea was. I was talking about in-universe explanations.

I still think it's best to dismiss the exploding planet idea as something Khan constructed based on very little actual information. The only positive evidence for it is an unreliable witness, it's physically so implausible that it's laughable, and it opens a whopper of a plot hole.

All we now for certain is that:

- Khan observed a large disaster which he interpreted as Ceti Alpha VI exploding
- Ceti Alpha V's ecosystem got fucked
- Reliant wasn't able to properly identify Ceti Alpha V

I'd say a combination of shitty records on the Reliant combined with some sort of comet impact that messed with the orbit of a double planet is at least a smidge less wildly unlikely than worlds made of C4 and Chekov not noticing One Of Our Planets Is Missing.