Fundamental differences

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Patrick Degan
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Patrick Degan »

SuperScaleConstruct wrote:Control of gravity is most definately NOT a fundamental aspect of Federation tech. They use thrusters to power thier ships. They expend energy in a newtonian way to move objects such as a tractor beam or artificial grav on board ship. Any counter to gravity is always mentioned as using up energy or being a resource drain. What the Federation has is a different tech, having nothing to do with gravity (matter/energy conversions), which grants them enough energy and resources to be able to counter gravity.
You're babbling. You're also quite wrong. The DS9 pilot destroys your argument regarding ST society lacking gravity manipulation technology, as they use this method to enable simple thrusters to be able to move the station from Bajor orbit to the perimetre of the wormhole in the system's asteroid belt. It's how their warp field works, as per "Deja Q". We see antigravs in TOS as shipboard tools. The existence of gravity manipulation technology, BTW, does not erase the operation of newtonian laws of motion, it merely makes certain operations easier to accomplish.

Oh, also, gravity is not "matter/energy conversions".

And if SW ships don't use thrust engines of any sort, then kindly explain what those glowing things on the back of the stardestroyer are:

Image

or the back end of this ship, for that matter:

Image

Really, you're a moron. But then, you demonstrated that the second you burbled nonsense about E=mc^2 circumventing the law of Conservation of Energy.
Last edited by Patrick Degan on 2008-12-28 11:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fundamental differences

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Correction to all parties, the Imperials did have a base in Mos Eisley. We get to see a good shot of it in Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy
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Re: Fundamental differences

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SuperScaleConstruct wrote:
Ted C wrote:There's no argument over whether the Empire has the technology to control gravity, but that doesn't make it the "basis" of their technological system. There's also no question that the Federation has matter-antimatter reaction fuel systems, but that doesn't give them a "get out of Conservation of Energy free" card.

Basic artificial gravity on Federation starships is integral to their operation, too. People walk around those corridors assuming it is there and working in every single TV episode and movie.
There is a difference between a game changing fundamental technolgy and things that are just derivative of it. I fear many of you can not see this.

Control of gravity is most definately NOT a fundamental aspect of Federation tech. They use thrusters to power thier ships. They expend energy in a newtonian way to move objects such as a tractor beam or artificial grav on board ship. Any counter to gravity is always mentioned as using up energy or being a resource drain. What the Federation has is a different tech, having nothing to do with gravity (matter/energy conversions), which grants them enough energy and resources to be able to counter gravity.
The Empire also uses thrusters to propel its ships in space. Imperial repulsorlift technology only works in a significant gravity well, so when they get away from a planet, they use the same Newtonian principles as Federation ships to accelerate.

There is no basis for your assumption that Imperial repulsorlift technology uses no energy when running, either. If you want to claim that the Empire can counter gravity with little or no energy expenditure, then you need to provide some evidence to back it up. Lack of discussion of the energy cost of repulsorlift technology doesn't indicate that it has no energy cost.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote: Compare to Star wars. Countering gravity has a near zero difficulty or energy output. I disagree that this simply means they have more energy to output - especially since SW specifically lacks the matter/energy power source of ST. What they have is the elegant ability to manipulate gravity. Once we know that it is almost silly to assume that cant be used as a thier primary power source. If you have control over gravity as shown throughout the movies then perprtual motion type machines become possible. I'm sure everyone in the Star Wars galaxy has just ignored this and found some other inexplicable technology to power thier ships.
Whether they have an "elegant ability to manipulate gravity" or not, your lack of any ability to demonstrate the energy cost (high or low) means you have no case. Even if repulsorlift technology is extremely efficient, other Imperial achievements (especially the Death Star) conclusively demonstrate that the Empire can generate truly obscene amounts of energy from its power sources. Further, you have described no mechanism for generating energy by manipulating gravity. There is no plausible mechanism by which manipulating gravity would make a perpetual motion machine possible. If you want to suddenly change an object's potential energy by altering the gravity around it, you will have to supply an appropriate amount of energy in another form to accomplish the task.

As I said earlier, gravity control is not a "get out of thermodynamics free" card.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote:
I don't see how any of these possibilities have any merit. The Empire has advanced, efficient technology for controlling gravity. So what? That does not mean it has to be the basis of their interstellar propulsion technology, their power technology, their computer technology, their weapon technology, or anything else.
It is the most powerful technology shown in Star Wars and is shown to be an integral part of all society of which most other things can be explained as a derivative. We are talking about control over one of the fundamental forces of the universe here and you want to dismiss it and say they must have some other tech that is powering thier society? Why? How? Good luck even formulating what it might be.
The most powerful technology shown in Star Wars is the Death Star, which turned an Earth-like planet into an asteroid field in less than a second. You can argue until you turn blue in the face about how the Death Star blew Alderaan into bits, but the minimum amount of energy required to accomplish that task is easy enough to calculate. Even if the Death Star's superlaser somehow incorporates gravity-control technology to boost the planet's mass to escape velocity, the energy requirement is the same.

Efficient gravity control is nothing to sneeze at, but boosting all of Alderaan's mass to escape velocity is an energy-consuming event no matter how you do it. Even if you reversed gravity at Alderaan's core and caused the planet to "fall apart", you would have to supply just as much energy. There is no way out of it.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote:
But antimatter is not something found in nature; the Federation has to make it by using other power sources (solar power or fusion, most of the time), and inefficiencies in such processes mean that the amount of energy used to make a given amount of fuel is more than you will actually get back when you use that fuel. Merely possessing the technology to make antimatter and use it as fuel is not a "get out of Conservation of Energy free" card.
That just tells us thier main reactor is really more of a battery then is it actually generating energy. So what?
Their main reactor is not a battery. It is a mechanism that converts fuel (matter and antimatter) into energy.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote:They DO have the ability to convert matter directly into energy.
If they could do that, they would not need to carry large quantities of dangerous antimatter fuel in storage tanks on the ship. The show absolutely contradicts your claim.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote:Evidently they just dont use it on the fly, perhaps for reliabilty reasons since it no doubt takes energy to start the reaction. Antimatter as a battery essentially has energy to begin with. This explains why a starship core breach seems orders of magnitude more powerful then does simple weapon fire (or the destruction of ships in SW). Why don't they craft antimatter bombs with the strenth of a starship core then? Once again it seems political and ethical and NOT a technical limitation at all.
Why isn't every weapon in the US or Russian nuclear arsenal a 50-megaton bomb? Beyond a certain point, a large amount of blast-energy from a single weapon simply becomes inefficient. A nuclear missile with ten 100-kiloton warheads can do more damage than a missile with a single 1-megaton warhead. The reason that they don't craft antimatter bombs that can explode with the force of a core breach is that they would be very inefficient delivery systems compared to phasers and photon torpedoes. In case you haven't been paying attention, a photon torpedoe is an antimatter bomb, it's just not as large as a warp core.
SuperScaleConstruct wrote:
Transporters and replicators appear to work by rearranging matter, not by converting it into energy and back. Everything we know about replicators indicates that they rearrange atoms stored on the ship into a desired pattern, not that they create objects from pure energy.
It would be a massive energy drain to create matter so of course it makes sense to have stored mass that is reconfigured, more like a transporter. Again that would be like a battery. There is no reason to believe they couldnt do only half of the procedure when they choose - that would be a silly assumption. Perhaps there are questions about efficiency or reliability which discourage powering the ship that way outright.
Everything we've seen in Star Trek indicates that if you "only do half of the procedure" then you just disintegrate the object on your source pad without reorganizing any matter at the destination to fit the object's pattern. You do not get a bunch of energy from the process. If they could do that, they would have gone straight to the transporter room with a block of scrap metal any time they had a power shortage. Everything we know about how transporters and power systems work in Star Trek tells us that they can't just take a chunk of matter and convert it into energy.
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Re: Fundamental differences

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Are we still wasting time with this fucktard?
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Re: Fundamental differences

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Swindle1984 wrote:Are we still wasting time with this fucktard?
He's a chew toy.
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Cri_Havoc »

He's a chew toy.
While I agree, this thing about the 'fundamental differences' doesn't smell right, I wanted to comment on a few points.
The Empire also uses thrusters to propel its ships in space. Imperial repulsorlift technology only works in a significant gravity well, so when they get away from a planet, they use the same Newtonian principles as Federation ships to accelerate.
Has anyone ever actually crunched numbers on the amount of fuel required to actually accelerate the Death Star or an ISD? I'm just really curious, because someone mentioned in another thread the sort of acceleration they had, and I was wondering if the amount of fuel expended in accelerating a ship at those rates? For some reason I had thought that the millenium falcon used some other kind of technology, that big 'rocket' on the back never looked like a conventional sort of newtonian system. And I must read more on repulsorlifts, that was an interesting fact.
You can argue until you turn blue in the face about how the Death Star blew Alderaan into bits, but the minimum amount of energy required to accomplish that task is easy enough to calculate.
Well, I don't want to start this argument here, I'm sure I'll come across the thread eventually, but, I just wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Example: You have a nuclear bomb (yay!). Now yes, to get the big fireworks you need to impart some energy into it, but not the same amount of energy as it will actually release. By the same token, it CAN be possible to destroy a planet without resorting to ridiculous amounts of energy. Before someone kills me, I am NOT arguing for this 'fissionable core of Alderaan' theory, I currently believe that the Death Star DID impart a ridiculous amount of energy into the planet. But I'm just saying, things don't always have to be quite so simple.
That just tells us thier main reactor is really more of a battery then is it actually generating energy. So what?

Their main reactor is not a battery. It is a mechanism that converts fuel (matter and antimatter) into energy.
I think he was making an analogy, sort of, in that antimatter shouldn't really be considered a 'power source' in the traditional sense, since it takes just as much energy to make it as you get out of it? Ergo, it acts as a compact way of storing a large amount of energy, and in that sense, is acting as a 'battery'. I don't think he meant it literally, just in the overall function.
They DO have the ability to convert matter directly into energy.


If they could do that, they would not need to carry large quantities of dangerous antimatter fuel in storage tanks on the ship. The show absolutely contradicts your claim.
Don't the transporters, replicators and probably a few other gadgets do this? I've heard some confusion over whether it really turns things into energy or just disassembles and reassembles, but I'm sure there are examples of matter to energy conversions. BUT, that being said, this has ALWAYS been shown as a process which requires energy to accomplish, and I don't think that SuperScaleConstruct actually meant that they turn the matter into energy as a power source (well, I suppose both fusion and M/AM reactions do SORT of count as turning matter into energy, so we might have misunderstood him entirely.)
Why isn't every weapon in the US or Russian nuclear arsenal a 50-megaton bomb?
While I'll admit, I'd USUALLY prefer a couple smaller bombs to one larger bomb, I think you jump to the conclusion on why we have smaller bombs too quickly. First, it IS more efficient, in that you can spread the devestation more efficiently over a larger area (or a couple seperate areas). But if I give you a small, ridiculously strong target, you're going to want to hit it with one friggin' big bomb. Right tool for the right job. The reason WE don't have bombs of a ridiculously large nuclear bombs is that they progressed to a certain size before we finally put a stop (sort of) to nuclear weapon development (the largest nuke ever detonated was 50 megaton, theoretically capable of being 100 megaton, that was back in the 60s. I have little doubt that without the regulation, we WOULD have kept building bigger nukes.) So big bombs certainly have their uses. But as to why photon torpedos don't have the strength of a warp core breach, I think the more likely answer is, you don't want to be anywhere near a warp core breach when it goes off, so you couldn't really have combat at Star Trek typical distances, since we already know at close-ish ranges, photon torpedoes can actually damage the ship doing the shooting if you're not careful.
Everything we've seen in Star Trek indicates that if you "only do half of the procedure" then you just disintegrate the object on your source pad without reorganizing any matter at the destination to fit the object's pattern. You do not get a bunch of energy from the process.
Agreed! I cannot think of a single instance of dematerializing some chunk of matter to extract energy from it.

It's how their warp field works, as per "Deja Q".
Can anyone point me to a reference that says warp drive works via mass lightening?! I'm still looking. I remember the episode, but that just shows the warp field CAN be used for mass lightening, not that this is how we normally zip around space. But I don't have specific memories or the actual episode, do they actually say that that's how they normally work? And does anyone have any other references? It's more out of curiosity. Star Trek does have gravity manipulation, and the gravity manipulation done in Star Trek DOES require power (I think things tend to fall out of the sky when they lose power. I'm sure we must have some examples.)
And if SW ships don't use thrust engines of any sort, then kindly explain what those glowing things on the back of the stardestroyer are:
Again, I was kind of curious to read/do math on the fuel a thrust engine would need in order to move around a ship in the SW world. I had kind of thought there must be something more to those engines than simple thrust principles. I mean, how do they decelerate the way they do? I admit, my knowledge of Star Wars propulsion is rubbish, I'd like to fix that, so anyone with some interesting reading they could point me to, that would be awesome.
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Re: Fundamental differences

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Cri_Havoc wrote:Has anyone ever actually crunched numbers on the amount of fuel required to actually accelerate the Death Star or an ISD?
Yes, that is one of the ways to deduce the power of the reactor.

I'm just really curious, because someone mentioned in another thread the sort of acceleration they had, and I was wondering if the amount of fuel expended in accelerating a ship at those rates?
Given how relativity works, you can essentially alter a given mass to an arbitrarily high number so long as you are willing to apply enough energy to accelerate it to that velocity.
For some reason I had thought that the millenium falcon used some other kind of technology, that big 'rocket' on the back never looked like a conventional sort of newtonian system. And I must read more on repulsorlifts, that was an interesting fact.
So you assumed it was magic unbounded by the laws of science... why?
Well, I don't want to start this argument here, I'm sure I'll come across the thread eventually, but, I just wanted to point out that this isn't always the case. Example: You have a nuclear bomb (yay!). Now yes, to get the big fireworks you need to impart some energy into it, but not the same amount of energy as it will actually release. By the same token, it CAN be possible to destroy a planet without resorting to ridiculous amounts of energy. Before someone kills me, I am NOT arguing for this 'fissionable core of Alderaan' theory, I currently believe that the Death Star DID impart a ridiculous amount of energy into the planet. But I'm just saying, things don't always have to be quite so simple.
Yes, they do. A planet is not a readily reactive material. If they were, there wouldn't be any planets.


While I'll admit, I'd USUALLY prefer a couple smaller bombs to one larger bomb, I think you jump to the conclusion on why we have smaller bombs too quickly. [/quote You completely fail to grasp his point. No, he does not reach this conclusion too swiftly. Different weapons is a principle of combined arms.
First, it IS more efficient, in that you can spread the devestation more efficiently over a larger area (or a couple seperate areas). But if I give you a small, ridiculously strong target, you're going to want to hit it with one friggin' big bomb. Right tool for the right job. The reason WE don't have bombs of a ridiculously large nuclear bombs is that they progressed to a certain size before we finally put a stop (sort of) to nuclear weapon development (the largest nuke ever detonated was 50 megaton, theoretically capable of being 100 megaton, that was back in the 60s. I have little doubt that without the regulation, we WOULD have kept building bigger nukes.) So big bombs certainly have their uses. But as to why photon torpedos don't have the strength of a warp core breach, I think the more likely answer is, you don't want to be anywhere near a warp core breach when it goes off, so you couldn't really have combat at Star Trek typical distances, since we already know at close-ish ranges, photon torpedoes can actually damage the ship doing the shooting if you're not careful.
Or because they are a fraction of the size of a warp core, meaning they have less material to work with. Which do you think is more likely here?

Can anyone point me to a reference that says warp drive works via mass lightening?! I'm still looking. I remember the episode, but that just shows the warp field CAN be used for mass lightening, not that this is how we normally zip around space. But I don't have specific memories or the actual episode, do they actually say that that's how they normally work? And does anyone have any other references? It's more out of curiosity. Star Trek does have gravity manipulation, and the gravity manipulation done in Star Trek DOES require power (I think things tend to fall out of the sky when they lose power. I'm sure we must have some examples.)
So we see that the warp field work by mass lightening, and you assume that this is something the dedicated equipment can be easily modified to do, rather than this just being how the highly specialized, well designed, dedicated equipment works?
Again, I was kind of curious to read/do math on the fuel a thrust engine would need in order to move around a ship in the SW world. I had kind of thought there must be something more to those engines than simple thrust principles. I mean, how do they decelerate the way they do? I admit, my knowledge of Star Wars propulsion is rubbish, I'd like to fix that, so anyone with some interesting reading they could point me to, that would be awesome.
Try this. It's better than assuming it must be magic like you do.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Cri_Havoc wrote:While I'll admit, I'd USUALLY prefer a couple smaller bombs to one larger bomb, I think you jump to the conclusion on why we have smaller bombs too quickly. First, it IS more efficient, in that you can spread the devestation more efficiently over a larger area (or a couple seperate areas). But if I give you a small, ridiculously strong target, you're going to want to hit it with one friggin' big bomb. Right tool for the right job. The reason WE don't have bombs of a ridiculously large nuclear bombs is that they progressed to a certain size before we finally put a stop (sort of) to nuclear weapon development (the largest nuke ever detonated was 50 megaton, theoretically capable of being 100 megaton, that was back in the 60s. I have little doubt that without the regulation, we WOULD have kept building bigger nukes.) So big bombs certainly have their uses.
No, the reasons we don't use large nukes are: large devices require a far larger supply of nuclear materials to produce detonations of 5MT or greater, which is far more efficiently allocated to produce a much larger stockpile of 1MT-or-KT-range devices; large devices aren't suitable for MIRV warhead buses on an ICBM and would reduce the striking power of your strategic rocket force as a result; and as you observe, many small devices spread destructive striking force more effectively amongst multiple targets. But as for hardened targets, earth-burrowing bunker-buster nukes can deal with those as effectively as a large megaton-range device. Big bombs are actually tactically useless in terms of current-day strike profiles predicated upon far more accurate delivery systems than were available when the Soviets test-detonated Tsar Bomba. It is also quite possible to detonate a number of small 20KT range warheads in a relatively tight encirclement pattern and compound blast and thermal effects to produce a similar level of destructive force as a single 1MT weapon for a far smaller fraction of nuclear material expended.

We haven't put a stop to nuclear weapons development at all but simply pointed its direction toward maximising resources. To sum up: you don't need big bombs when you can use small ones far more efficiently.
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Patrick Degan wrote:We haven't put a stop to nuclear weapons development at all but simply pointed its direction toward maximising resources. To sum up: you don't need big bombs when you can use small ones far more efficiently.
Out of curiousity on this slight tangent, is there any source or info on just how large a nuclear bomb (yield wise) we could make?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Bubble Boy wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:We haven't put a stop to nuclear weapons development at all but simply pointed its direction toward maximising resources. To sum up: you don't need big bombs when you can use small ones far more efficiently.
Out of curiousity on this slight tangent, is there any source or info on just how large a nuclear bomb (yield wise) we could make?
The 50MT Tsar Bomba test device was known to be a downscaled prototype for a projected 100MT thermonuclear warhead —lacking only a tertiary uranium tamper which was substituted with a lead one for the test. The problem with such big bombs is in the sheer amount of material they require to produce the blast sought for in the design. Tsar Bomba just by itself would have been difficult to truck around as a weapon —the whole assembly weighed 22 tons, which was straining the maximum limit on the bombload for the Tu-95. You could build big bombs of that type, but the problem with them is that they are very much militarily useless and just a waste of valuable nuclear fuel.
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Cri_Havoc »

Cri_Havoc wrote:
Has anyone ever actually crunched numbers on the amount of fuel required to
actually accelerate the Death Star or an ISD?
Yes, that is one of the ways to deduce the power of the reactor.

Whoops, guess I should be a little clearer: I've certainly seen people calculate
the amount of energy required to move something like the Death Star, or
an ISD, but what I'm wondering is the total mass of fuel that might be required,
based on something like conservation of momentum.
Quote:
For some reason I had thought that the millenium falcon used some other kind of
technology, that big 'rocket' on the back never looked like a conventional sort
of newtonian system. And I must read more on repulsorlifts, that was an
interesting fact.
So you assumed it was magic unbounded by the laws of science... why?
Well, aside from the absence of anything seeming to be coming out the back end
(possibly understandable in space, but it's one of the few ships that we see fly
in atmosphere with it's main engine on), the effects with the engine just seemed
a bit different from the rest of the ships. Not in violation of any laws of
physics, just working under different principles than accelerating some kind of propellant out the back.
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Ender »

Cri_Havoc wrote:Whoops, guess I should be a little clearer: I've certainly seen people calculate
the amount of energy required to move something like the Death Star, or
an ISD, but what I'm wondering is the total mass of fuel that might be required,
based on something like conservation of momentum.
Um, take the energy, divide it by e=mc^2. Or are you talking propellant?
Well, aside from the absence of anything seeming to be coming out the back end
(possibly understandable in space, but it's one of the few ships that we see fly
in atmosphere with it's main engine on),
Care to show that they are operating as engines then? We see in AOTC (when slave 1 is entering the asteroid field) that we see the engines glowing without them thrusting (check out the diagram behind Jango's head). This implies they are acting as radiators at the time. So since we know engines can glow and act as radiators and the effects we see with glowing engines are inconsistent with thrust, the likely answer is that they are running the radiator.
the effects with the engine just seemed a bit different from the rest of the ships. Not in violation of any laws of
physics, just working under different principles than accelerating some kind of propellant out the back.
Unless they are violating the laws of physics they have to work on the principle of throwing something out the back. That whole "action-reaction" thing. Even photons have momentum and work like this.
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Terralthra »

Ender wrote:Unless they are violating the laws of physics they have to work on the principle of throwing something out the back. That whole "action-reaction" thing. Even photons have momentum and work like this.
This isn't entirely true. Concepts like minimagnetospheric plasma propulsion, for example, do not have any exhaust; the reaction mass for them is the source of the magnetic field against which they push, or the solar wind. You're, of course, correct in that in order not to violate physics, it's still a reaction drive of one sort or another.
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Re: Fundamental differences

Post by Ender »

Terralthra wrote:
Ender wrote:Unless they are violating the laws of physics they have to work on the principle of throwing something out the back. That whole "action-reaction" thing. Even photons have momentum and work like this.
This isn't entirely true. Concepts like minimagnetospheric plasma propulsion, for example, do not have any exhaust; the reaction mass for them is the source of the magnetic field against which they push, or the solar wind. You're, of course, correct in that in order not to violate physics, it's still a reaction drive of one sort or another.
M2P2 and solar sails are based off the idea of reflecting or bouncing back force carrying particles. I counted this as "throwing something out the back", as they essentially are.
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