Chakotay and Stereotypes

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2006-07-13 01:44pm

Bounty wrote:
(although Robert Beltran and Garret Wang were always useless).
I agree on Beltran, but Wang did act (yes, he can actually move his limbs !) in Timeless. And quite well, too; he basically played a bitter, desillusioned version of Kim and did it with style.

Maybe, but if all you can cite is a single episode, that's still pretty sad.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-07-13 01:48pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Bounty wrote:
(although Robert Beltran and Garret Wang were always useless).
I agree on Beltran, but Wang did act (yes, he can actually move his limbs !) in Timeless. And quite well, too; he basically played a bitter, desillusioned version of Kim and did it with style.
Maybe, but if all you can cite is a single episode, that's still pretty sad.

Touché

Either he wasn't trying or the stories about the cast being told to act or emote as little as possible were true.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-13 01:50pm

Maybe I'm a little too hard on Garret Wang, but his character was still horribly bland whether it was his fault or the writers. And as Spanky The Dolphin said, it is pretty disheartening that Garret Wang truly shone in just one episode.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-13 06:28pm

I've been working on Prime Factors for the next review, and that pretty much shows Harry Kim's ground state. He is in the position of either discussing a way home or screwing a hot chick, and it comes off like Fox Mulder telling Scully about the latest crop circle he found.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-07-13 06:47pm

Sonnenburg wrote:I've been working on Prime Factors for the next review, and that pretty much shows Harry Kim's ground state. He is in the position of either discussing a way home or screwing a hot chick, and it comes off like Fox Mulder telling Scully about the latest crop circle he found.

I liked the episode where Ensign Kim is imprisoned on the planet of the nymphomaniacs. Seriously.

Now, you're probably thinking "Oh god, not another one of Stofsk's stories..." but I swear it's the truth. There are a few hot honies hanging off of Kim's arms, smiling and tee-heeing at every dumb thing this dolt has to say. To top it off, Kim doesn't get laid, not once. Not even when there are all these sluts trying to get to his man-juice. He manages to fuck up the unfuckable.

The episode was in season three, with the delightfully suggestive title of "Favourite Son." I would make fun of that title, but... I don't really have to.

Can you do a review on that one, please? Pretty please, with sugar on top?

Or are you going through it episode by episode from season one to season two etc?

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-13 07:04pm

I'm doing them in order, so we can watch it unfold... or I suppose spread like mildew across the Trek franchise.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-13 07:08pm

I liked it when poor Kim was cock teased by Seven in "Revulsion" and then had other silly things happen to him later on. And he also died in "Deadlock" and was replaced by temperoral/dimensional duplicate.

And although Seven and the EMH were two of the stronger, more popular characters on Voyager, does anyone elese still think their overexposure hurt the series?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-07-13 07:26pm

Harry Kim died, I think, 5 times on the series. Also, when the Hirogen took over, they made him the holodeck-bitch.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-13 07:31pm

If you learn nothing from Voyager, it's this: It sucks to be Harry.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2006-07-13 11:04pm

Since they can't get reinforcements from Starfleet, they do need to reuse their redshirts.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-14 06:25am

I wonder if all Starfleet ships should be equipped with cloning labs, so they could regenerate all the heavy losses some the crew suffer (ie when Captain Kirk sent in wave after wave of his redshirts to stop the Xarg kill bots

).

I find it strange that the people at Trek BBS bitch and moan about the overuse of Seven and the EMH, when the other characters were pretty weak anyway and the overuse of such obnoxious characters such as Chakotay, Kes or Neelix in earlier seaons did much more to damage Voyager's popularity in the first place (although I do not blame Jennifer Lien nor Ethan Phillips).

Also why do some critics like Voyager's first four seasons, but hate seasons five, six and seven? To start with Season Five was arguably Voyager's best season, plus the earlier seasons had just as many mediocre episodes as the later seasons.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-07-14 10:32am

Stofsk wrote:
Sonnenburg wrote:I've been working on Prime Factors for the next review, and that pretty much shows Harry Kim's ground state. He is in the position of either discussing a way home or screwing a hot chick, and it comes off like Fox Mulder telling Scully about the latest crop circle he found.
I liked the episode where Ensign Kim is imprisoned on the planet of the nymphomaniacs. Seriously.

Now, you're probably thinking "Oh god, not another one of Stofsk's stories..." but I swear it's the truth. There are a few hot honies hanging off of Kim's arms, smiling and tee-heeing at every dumb thing this dolt has to say. To top it off, Kim doesn't get laid, not once. Not even when there are all these sluts trying to get to his man-juice. He manages to fuck up the unfuckable.

The episode was in season three, with the delightfully suggestive title of "Favourite Son." I would make fun of that title, but... I don't really have to.

Can you do a review on that one, please? Pretty please, with sugar on top? Or are you going through it episode by episode from season one to season two etc?

I remember that episode. Evidently written by someone who'd never gotten any.

Big Orange wrote:I find it strange that the people at Trek BBS bitch and moan about the overuse of Seven and the EMH, when the other characters were pretty weak anyway and the overuse of such obnoxious characters such as Chakotay, Kes or Neelix in earlier seaons did much more to damage Voyager's popularity in the first place (although I do not blame Jennifer Lien nor Ethan Phillips).

Also why do some critics like Voyager's first four seasons, but hate seasons five, six and seven? To start with Season Five was arguably Voyager's best season, plus the earlier seasons had just as many mediocre episodes as the later seasons.

It frankly mystifies me that any critic could find anything to like in what were seven seasons of pure shit.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-14 07:12pm

Patrick Degan wrote: It frankly mystifies me that any critic could find anything to like in what were seven seasons of pure shit.

I wouldn't say Voyager was pure shit, merely an average sci-fi show that could've been much better than it actually was. It had quite a few great, even classic Trek episodes, a few memorable characters and slick production values, but overall the people behind it lacked vision or true imagination and Voyager remained pretty predictable (even though it had it's moments of brilliance).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-07-14 07:23pm

Given that SciFi shows are far and few between how do you define 'average'?
VOY sucked by Star Trek standards (even by the low ones defined by late TNG/early DS9), it sucked donkeyballs by B5 standards (IIRC the only major other SciFi series in that timeframe, I think Farscape started much later but feel free to correct me about that), and it sucked, period. There may be 7 episodes worth of good moments in all of VOY but that's it. VOY ignored everything that made ST great, took everything that sucked in TNG/DS9, and ran with it. VOY had exactly 1.5 interesting characters, namely The Doctor and 7 (her being the half character).
VOY deserves all the criticism it gets and then some.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-07-14 07:53pm

Batman wrote:Given that SciFi shows are far and few between how do you define 'average'?
VOY sucked by Star Trek standards (even by the low ones defined by late TNG/early DS9), it sucked donkeyballs by B5 standards (IIRC the only major other SciFi series in that timeframe, I think Farscape started much later but feel free to correct me about that), and it sucked, period.

VOY 1995-2001
Babylon 5 1993-1998
Stargate SG-1 1997-Present
Farscape 1999-2003

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-07-14 07:57pm

Thanks, StarshipTitanic.
Given that TNG/DS9, B5 AND SG:1 beat VOY six ways from sunday, I think my point stands.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-14 08:35pm

Big Orange wrote:I wouldn't say Voyager was pure shit, merely an average sci-fi show that could've been much better than it actually was. It had quite a few great, even classic Trek episodes, a few memorable characters and slick production values, but overall the people behind it lacked vision or true imagination and Voyager remained pretty predictable (even though it had it's moments of brilliance).

It didn't 'lack imagination', it was so terrible only the most insane ST fan I know could even *watch* it. Unlike ENT, which was simply uninspiring bland nonsense, VOY was so crap people would turn it off and walk away. I dare you to name these 'moments of brilliance': I've seen the apparently 'good' parts, and they're deeply stupid. I haven't heard anyone claim Workforce was good, though.

Skylon · Post by **Skylon** » 2006-07-14 08:49pm

Stark wrote:It didn't 'lack imagination', it was so terrible only the most insane ST fan I know could even *watch* it. Unlike ENT, which was simply uninspiring bland nonsense, VOY was so crap people would turn it off and walk away. I dare you to name these 'moments of brilliance': I've seen the apparently 'good' parts, and they're deeply stupid. I haven't heard anyone claim Workforce was good, though.

I thought "Deathwish" was a good Q episode.

That's about all I liked of Voyager.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-07-14 10:19pm

Patrick Degan wrote:I remember that episode. Evidently written by someone who'd never gotten any.

Startrek.com seems to suggest that a Lisa Klink was responsible for that episode.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-07-15 04:05am

I wonder if all Starfleet ships should be equipped with cloning labs

Voyager had one. It's on Deck 9 ³/4, next to Shuttlebay One and across the hall from the TARDIS room where they keep the Delta Flyer and Neelix's ship.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-15 05:10am

Stark wrote:
Big Orange wrote:I wouldn't say Voyager was pure shit, merely an average sci-fi show that could've been much better than it actually was. It had quite a few great, even classic Trek episodes, a few memorable characters and slick production values, but overall the people behind it lacked vision or true imagination and Voyager remained pretty predictable (even though it had it's moments of brilliance).
It didn't 'lack imagination', it was so terrible only the most insane ST fan I know could even *watch* it. Unlike ENT, which was simply uninspiring bland nonsense, VOY was so crap people would turn it off and walk away. I dare you to name these 'moments of brilliance': I've seen the apparently 'good' parts, and they're deeply stupid. I haven't heard anyone claim Workforce was good, though.

Voyager was not truly great because it *DID* lack any real vision or had any inspired ideas, it was essentially a retread of TNG in the Delta Quadrant. And saying Voyager failed because it lost viewers is a weak charge, since DS9 perhaps lost just as many viewers and Enterprise was cancelled prematurely because it lost most of it's audience. And perhaps Voyager was the most "popular" Trek series after TNG in terms of ratings (although complete dross like EastEnders and Big Brother is hugely popular as well).

And my general opinion of Voyager is mixed - I find it's not as great as it's rabid fans say it is, nor do I find it as awful as it's detractors claim. Voyager is the very definition of an average to so-so sci-fi series. My subjective opinion of course.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-15 07:49am

No, VOY was far, far worse than 'a rerun of TNG in the Delta Quadrant'. It took the terrible writing, technobabble, reset-button, zero-conflict ideas and refined them to their highest point. If VOY is your idea of 'average', you must absolutely LOVE stuff like nBSG and SG1.

Hitch Hiker · Post by **Hitch Hiker** » 2006-07-15 07:03pm

(probably an old joke or rubbish but must be said)

Star Trek Voyager, The USS Voyager it flung 70 thousand lightyears away from earth on its madien voyage, its crew must figure a way to get ho...Hang on im confused, a ship lost millions of lightyears from earth....i swear this used to be called Lost In Space..

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-07-16 01:52am

Big Orange wrote:Voyager was not truly great because it *DID* lack any real vision or had any inspired ideas, it was essentially a retread of TNG in the Delta Quadrant. And saying Voyager failed because it lost viewers is a weak charge, since DS9 perhaps lost just as many viewers and Enterprise was cancelled prematurely because it lost most of it's audience. And perhaps Voyager was the most "popular" Trek series after TNG in terms of ratings (although complete dross like EastEnders and Big Brother is hugely popular as well).

VOY had the second worst ratings of any Trek show, after ENT. It was always behind DS9, but both DS9 and VOY were diving. By the end, DS9 lost 2/3 of what its starting audience was. VOY lost half. My uninformed opinion would guess this was caused by the blandness of their characters. DS9 was much more plot-driven, but the plot didn't start until the fifth season and even then was only secondary to the soap opera. VOY was obviously intended to be very character driven (Hologram doctor; two aliens in the main cast, then a Borg; the Maquis) except if the characters weren't funny then they weren't interesting. TNG was actually the only Trek series to increase its audience and consistantly be successful.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-07-16 02:15am

If I remember right, even the great and vaunted TNG's ratings started to slip and fall somewhere around the fifth season... which, coincidentally, is where it started to nosedive in terms of quality.