Catagorizing Starfleet ships

[Alyeska]

Now doesn't the Akira fit in as an Escort carrier as well? The three massive shuttle bays (1 fore 2 aft) carry a fair number of perigines...at least 2 dozen from what i understand.

I have yet to see this forward shuttlebay that people say exists...

Anyway, there are actually three rear shuttlebay doors IIRC.

[Warspite]

Now doesn't the Akira fit in as an Escort carrier as well? The three massive shuttle bays (1 fore 2 aft) carry a fair number of perigines...at least 2 dozen from what i understand.

I have yet to see this forward shuttlebay that people say exists...

Anyway, there are actually three rear shuttlebay doors IIRC.

It's the indentation on the bow of the saucer, where the deflector's should be, if you whatch closely, there are three(?) doors.

But I think they were never used, and the shuttles, or the fighters, are too large for the doors. Chalk one more for bad CGI scalling...


EDIT: Correction, forget that I mention the deflector shield, okay? And they aren't 3 doors, but it's a well lit area, right at the bow's indentation.

[Col. Crackpot]

it is integrated into the fromt of the saucer, where 10 forward would be on a GCS.

[CJvR]

A few SF ship types, many SF ships dont really fit into the usual classification schemes.

Federation - Battleship(TOS)

Soverign - BattleCruiser(although the Feds would deny that)

Prometheus - BattleCruiser / Destroyer flotilla

Galaxy - HeavyCruiser/Carrier/Transport
Ambasador - HeavyCruiser/Transport
Excelsior - HeavyCruiser(Obsolete)
Constitution - HeavyCruiser(TOS)

Nebula - ModularCruiser(dependent on type of pod)

Akira - MissileCruiser(Carrier by some accounts)

Intrepid - LightCruiser
Cheyenne - LightCruiser*
Miranda - LightCruiser(demoted to escort/destroyer)

Steamrunner - Heavy Destroyer*
New Orleans - Heavy Destroyer*

Norway - Destroyer*
Sabre - Destroyer*

Defiance - Monitor(heavy weapons & armor on a short ranged & slow hull)

Nova - Frigate
Oberoth - Frigate

Olympic - Hospitalship

*Depending on task assigned the classification might be adjusted. However from what little I have seen of these ships and the task assigned them.

[CJvR]

The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull,

That is incorrect. A Battlecruiser has battleship weapons on a cruiser hull. A Pocket battleship has weaker weapons then a battleship but greater protection then a Battlecruiser.

A BC sacrifice protection and firepower in favor of speed:
Dreadnought - 18.900 tons
10 x 12inch guns
11 inch armorbelt
21 kts
Invincible - 17.250 tons
8 x 12inch guns
6 inch armorbelt
25 kts

The German BCs didn't sacrifice quite as much:
Westfalen - 18.900 tons
12 x 11inch guns
11½ inch armorbelt
19½ kts
von der Tann - 19.400 tons
8 x 11inch guns
9½ inch armorbelt
25 kts

Experience showed that exposing ships with cruiser level armor to battleship sized shells was a very bad idea, so the BC grew monsterously in size...

Revenge - 28.000 tons
8 x 15inch guns
13 inch armorbelt
21 kts
Hood - 36.300 tons
8 x 15inch guns
12 inch, inclined armorbelt
32 kts

Eventualy the BC fused with the BB to become the fast battleship.


Although the BC usualy carried weapons as heavy as the BB they also used to carry fewer of them and be less able to survive hits by them. Appart from the earliest US & UK designs no BC had cruiser scaled protection. The German Pocket battleships of the 1930'ies had protection barely equal to a heavy cruiser, they were heavily upgunned cruisers more than anything else. If you want to see a ship more fitting the description of pocket battleship you should look at the Sverige class.

[Sea Skimmer]

The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull,

That is incorrect. A Battlecruiser has battleship weapons on a cruiser hull. A Pocket battleship has weaker weapons then a battleship but greater protection then a Battlecruiser.

Your quite wrong in fact. The armored cruisers which where nick named pocket battleships by Churchill had a very light battleship armament and heavy cruiser protection on a heavy cruiser hull.

They had lighter protection then even the original I class British battlecruisers, and 1/3-1/2 the armor of German battlecruisers

This is the armor for the battlecruiser Derfflinger

Side Belt Armor 11.8" (300mm)
Waterline Armor 3.9" (100mm)
Deck 1.2"-3.1" (30-80mm) main deck
Torpedo Bulkhead 1.8" (45mm)
Citadel 10.4" (264mm)
Casemates 5.9" (150mm)
Main Turrets 10.6" (270mm) face 3.2" (81mm) sides 1.2" (30mm) rear 4.3" (109mm) roof
Barbettes 10.4" (264mm)
Conning Tower 11.8" (300mm) sides 4.3" (109mm) roof



This is the armor of the Deutschland Class Panzerschiffes
Side (Deutchland) 1.96" (50mm) Wh spaced in front of 45mm Whboth sloped outboard 13.5° from the verticalno bow or stern belt armor
Side (Scheer/Spee) 3.14" (80mm) Wh outward sloped at 14° from the vertical spaced in front of a 1.57" (40mm) Wh plate parallel to itsloped 1.96" (50mm) Wh belt on bowvertical 1.57" (40mm) Wh belt on stern
Deck (Deutchland) 1.57" (40mm) Wh armored deck1.18" (30mm) Wh deck lower down in the bow and stern
Deck (Scheer/Spee) 1.57" (40mm) Wh deck with a 50mm Wh forward hull belt (sloped outboard at 14°)3.14" (80mm) Wh amidships belt0.78" (20mm) Wh deck with a 40mm Wh vertical aft upper belt
Turrets 3.93" (100mm) Wh KC n/A (Deutschland) face4.92" (125mm) Wh KC n/A (Spee/Scheer) face
Barbettes 5.5" (140mm) KC n/A (Deutschland)5.9" (150mm) KC n/A (Spee/Scheer)
Conning Tower 5.5" (140mm) KC n/A

Notice, the much lighter protection, barely against 6 inch fire for the Panzerschiffes, while Derfflinger can take 12 and 13.5 inch hits. According to you it should be the reverse.

[Sea Skimmer]

The pocket battleship has battleship weapons in a cruiser hull,

That is incorrect. A Battlecruiser has battleship weapons on a cruiser hull. A Pocket battleship has weaker weapons then a battleship but greater protection then a Battlecruiser.

I disagree, the armour from the Graf Spee (Lutzow Class) is equal to the Prinz Eugen (Hipper Class) or the Scharnhorst (class namesake), with sligth variations. The guns for the cruisers are 8" (per Naval Treaties), placing them in the Heavy Cruiser category, granted, the Bismarck had 14" guns.

But we stray, discussing naval semantics is not for this topic.

I assume you mean the 1905 Scharnhorst. That class actually had heavier protection then the Deutschland's across the board. The Hipper's where indeed about equal. Both classes had significant differences in the armor between ships so an exact comparison requires selecting one of each.

Bismarck had 14.96 inch guns.

The Washington naval treaty was not meant to define cruisers, but merely wanted to place a lower limit on battleships, the idea being to avoid someone building a swarm of small ones that would swamp the existing vessels by presenting more targets then they could keep under fire effectivily.

[Jason von Evil]

An Oberoth? A frigate? Lmao, that's gold! That thing makes a Norway look like a damn battleship.

Edit: Here's a link about the Akira, apparently it is a carrier and has two bays. http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/akira.html

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Stravo, the only ships in ST that I've seen that even approach the designation of "dreadnaught" are the Klingon Negh'Var and the largest Dominion warship.

I agree that the Sovereign MUST be classified as a battleship. Not only does it appear more powerful than any other observed UFP ship (with the possible exception of the Prometheus), but it is also very heavily shielded and armored, relative to other ship classes, as shown in "Nemesis."

Um, Dreadnought is just a term refering to a battleship with all its main guns the same calibre.

[Peregrin Toker]

Didn't Macduff describe the Galaxy-class as a battleship in "Conundrum"??? Given that the Galaxy-class was the biggest and most powerful Starfleet warship at the time it was designed, it's possible that it was intended as a battleship but was "demoted" to heavy cruiser status when the Sovereign-class battleship entered service.

[Cpt_Frank]

Stravo, the only ships in ST that I've seen that even approach the designation of "dreadnaught" are the Klingon Negh'Var and the largest Dominion warship.

I agree that the Sovereign MUST be classified as a battleship. Not only does it appear more powerful than any other observed UFP ship (with the possible exception of the Prometheus), but it is also very heavily shielded and armored, relative to other ship classes, as shown in "Nemesis."

Um, Dreadnought is just a term refering to a battleship with all its main guns the same calibre.

Hey wouldn't that be cool, ancient WWI battleships in space?

Didn't Macduff describe the Galaxy-class as a battleship in "Conundrum"???

I don't know but considering that this ship was intended primarily for exploration I don't think we should give it a classic naval designation.
How 'bout 'exploration cruiser' or something like that.

[Chris OFarrell]

Ohhh this is always fun :p

*Note. I'm ignoring clases that may be canon but we have never realy seen or know anthing about like say the Freedom, Shelly, New Orleans e.t.c.*

Ok. Starting from the top.

Dreadnaught/Superbattleship:

Prometheus-B subtype. Rick Sternbach in a final interview prior to leaving Voyager and ST (though of course they screamed for him to come back for Nemesis :p) talked about a new version of the Promethesus. When aksed what Starfleets premier warship would be (Soverign or Promethesus) he said Promethesus but quantified it by saying it would be a new subtype that would be a quater larger then the prototype, non seperating and making a block 1 Soverign as old as the Pentium 2 to the Pentium 4. The existence of this subtype is strongly hinted at, if not outrighted confrimed in Voy Endgame when the fleet sent to welcome the Borg to sector 001 included a Promethesus model that did NOT seperate to engage the sphere. Which is highly illogical for a seperating model given that you sure as all hell want to maximise your firepower against a Borg invasion and the prototype only maximised its firepower when in Multivector Assault Mode.

Against the Romulan Warbirds, the Promethesus actualy did reasonably well. The first salvo apparently took its shields down to 30% (salvo of an unknown kind) then when pounded during the engagement by a pair of Defiants and a couple of warbirds, its shields held up. So either the first salvo was something astonishing, taking the shields down then the regenerative shield array was able to bring them back up almost instantly, or, they never got the shields upto high levels of power (as in 30% was more or less the starting level).

Its weapons power is preaty f*$ing impresive. It was able to blow a De'Deradax class warbird away with a half dozen sustained phaser shots. With the help from a single shot from a Defiants secondery array (which I dobut added much in power). Five shots was enough to disable a Nebula class starship (GCS with warpod subtype) . The Nebula didn't manage to even dent the defences on the Promethesus. And this is the prototype. Its also equiped with ablative hull armour. Further, the ship was said to be the fastest in the fleet.

Basicly it appears to be the Federation answer to stuff like the Neg'Var or Dominion Destroyer. Its not anything like as big as either, but the supperior technology of the UFP means they can make a can of whoopass in a far smaller package then other powers. The Defiant owns its size range easily defeating multiple craft of its own size or captial ships much bigger then it. The Soverign was able to match up against the Scimitar to a large degree, even when its outmassed to an enormous amount.

Battleship

The Soverign class, specificaly the upgraded version seen in Nemesis is a preaty dang tough warship. It has enough torpedo tubes in well suited arcs to be able to blast anything with enough burst power short of another supership and rightly expect to see it blow to hell. The phasers are not anything to snear at by any means either and unlike the Akira or Nebula, it has the BIG guns in the class XII arrays with enough power to not rely totaly on torpedo firepower but be able to still deal out incredable damage if needed. The hull is said by backstage sources but not confirmed onscreen to have ablative hull armour, though given how it took damage in Nemesis, it looks like it. It does not appear to have or been designed around any kind of fighter or support craft, a true Capital ship of the line. Its also preaty manouverable for its size and one of the fastest ships in the fleet (second only IIRC to the Promethesus class).

Light Battleship / Fleet Carrier

Militarised Galaxy.

The First flight of Galaxy class ships, was, to put it lightly, a death Trap. However the ones in the Dominion war had quite a few changes to their structure as well as apparent combat durability. The times we have seen Militarised GCS's take damage like in the battle of the Chintaka system, they have simply taken the damage and kept goign on, damage that would have probably blown the E-D sky high. Several additional phaser strips have been added on the real upgraded models on the nacelles. In addition, the neck section has been made much less pronounced, with what looks like heavy armour reinforcement. The hull plates themselves which were (bassed on Q-Who for the first flight GCS) only a few CM's thick, are now meters thick in double layers. The main shuttlebay on the saucer which already appeared to be rather big has doubled in size, its probably the origination point of a lot of the Tacfighter support for the Federation fleets.

Heavy Cruiser

Ships that fall into this catogory include:

- Nebula (without warpod).
- Norway Class.
- Ambasador class.
- Non military Galaxy
- Steamrunner

The Heavy cruiser is a step down in power from the far larger superships. Their reduction in power is generaly attributed to being:
- Much smaller (Norway class, Steamrunner class)
- Explorer/Not military design (1st filight Galaxy, Nebula (no pod), Ambasador)

Several of the heavy cruisers are heavy cruisers when kitted for an explorer role. However they can be upgraded to heavy military action and be said to be a more military design if needed (Galaxy -> War Galaxy, Nebula -> warpod).

Support cruisers

Support Cruisers carry very heavy fireopwer, significant enough to rival a battleship by long range torpedo salvos, able to pump out concentrated volleys able to threaten or even take on enemy battleships over short times. However unlike their larger cousins, their secondery weapons (phasers) are not as powerful. Thus when their torpedo magazines are depleted, they become far less powerful, either a Light cruiser or heavy cruiser depending on the ship. Two Federation clases fall into this catogory:

- Nebula class with Warpod. With a massive ten torpedo launcher pod strapped on, the Nebula can deliver devistating firepower from its forward arc. When torpedo magazines are exhausted, it does retain a moderate combat ability, phaser stregth appears roughly akin to the Galaxy class, though no evidence of hull upgrades or armour are shown.

- Akira class. The Akira has a whopping 15 torpedo tubes spread out around the ship. Its suited for long range fire however it has the ability to close in and mix it up with torpedo tubes in all arcs allowing it to fire at targets in all directions. It does have a disadvantage though in that its phaser coverage is limited and once torpedo magazines are expended, its firepower will drop significantly. Offsetting this to a degree is the fact that its also an escort carrier, carrying a complement of tactical fighters on board. This can be used to enhanced standoff attack ability or provide extra hitting power in a close in brawl to the Akira or other ships (in DS9 fighters appeared to be used most often in skirmish groups, supporting small ships like the Defiant in high speed attacks).

Light Cruiser

Light cruisers include:

- Excelesor class
- Intrepid class.
- Steamrunner class.


Light cruisers are small fast ships in the case of the Intrepid and Steamrunner, moderatly well armed and generaly designed for long range exploration duties. They have little to no support craft abilities except for a couple of personal shuttles. The Excelsor when launched qualified as a Battleship (to the Constitution class Heavy Cruiser) but has long been eclipsed in power and performance. In its size range however it is still reletivly capable.

Destroyers.

Destroyers include most of the rest of the Starfleet. That is:

- Miranda
- Sabre
- Nova
- Centaur

These ships are reletivly light in terms of combat power. At least two of them are ships designed for secondery combat missions and primray research missions (Miranda and Nova). The Centaur appears to be used as a fast picket, the USS Centaur was patroling the UFP boarder when it gave chase to the Jem'Hadar attack ship Sisko and Co were on. The Sabre appears far more gunned up with heavier weapons, possibly a counterpoint to the Defiant class ship. While the USS Equinox was a couple of times able to 'take on' the Light Cruiser Voyager, it didn't exactly come out ahead either time (in fact it was royaly getting its ass kicked until fate interveined, Voyagers shields powered from the deflector failing or them getting the frequency of Voyagers shields from the EMH).

The Defiant

The Defiant is hard to put into a catogory. Partialy because unlike most Starfleet ships of its size, its built entirely for combat purposes. No science labs, no nothing. Holding back somewhat, its capable of fighting a heavily gunned up Light Cruiser (the USS Lakota) to a draw and its not anything like the same size. Its very manouverable, fast and outguns anything its size.

I'm putting it into the catogory of 'gunboat'. A ship that has significant firepower but mounted on a very small ship. In firepower and shields its easily a match to a light cruiser many times its size. In manouvering, its arguably supperior to destroyers. Its range however and top warp speed is limited to a much shaper degree then light cruisers as is its mission flexability.

[The Teacher]

http://www.furryconflict.com/tech/techn ... tions.html This is a great place to go if you want to know all about the classes of ships and so on. It is the most complete set I know of. Unfortunatly, some of it is being redone, there fore it is called closed. You can stil view, but its not up to date. Check the forums out while your at it at http://www.furryconflict.com

Don't tell them I sent you, though

[Typhonis 1]

Well wouldnt the Defiant be classified as a Frigate? heavily armed for its size and fast

[Alyeska]

Well wouldnt the Defiant be classified as a Frigate? heavily armed for its size and fast

Frigates typically can't go toe-to-toe with a light cruiser and win.

[Typhonis 1]

I was thinking of the 18th century definition of Frigate .Warships just a bit smaller than a ship of the line like say the USS Constitution

[Warspite]

I was thinking of the 18th century definition of Frigate .Warships just a bit smaller than a ship of the line like say the USS Constitution

The 18th century frigate is the 20th century cruiser.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Defiant would fit as a missile corvette. Gunboats are generally very slow ungainly craft meant for rivers or colonial policing, not stand up fights with real warships.

[Jason von Evil]

Nova? A destroyer? That things smaller than an Intrepid and is meant to be a science type vessel. Sure, it managed to take the fight to Voyager, but that was mostly because Equinox's crew had alot of combat experience, since they had a tougher time than Voyager. But keep in mind, Voyager wasn't exactly at 100% at the time.

[Chris OFarrell]

Nova? A destroyer? That things smaller than an Intrepid and is meant to be a science type vessel. Sure, it managed to take the fight to Voyager, but that was mostly because Equinox's crew had alot of combat experience, since they had a tougher time than Voyager. But keep in mind, Voyager wasn't exactly at 100% at the time.

Yessss, did you noticed how I clasified the Voyager as a Light Cruiser?

[Chris OFarrell]

The Defiant would fit as a missile corvette. Gunboats are generally very slow ungainly craft meant for rivers or colonial policing, not stand up fights with real warships.

Perhaps in terms of 19th/20th century design. However it does not fit into the role of missile corvette. Gunboat is the cloest designation I can find. And while gunboats traditionaly HAVE been somewhat slugish due to their deign, its NOT part of their formal definition which is simply a small ship mouting heavy weapons (in essence).

[Jason von Evil]

Nova? A destroyer? That things smaller than an Intrepid and is meant to be a science type vessel. Sure, it managed to take the fight to Voyager, but that was mostly because Equinox's crew had alot of combat experience, since they had a tougher time than Voyager. But keep in mind, Voyager wasn't exactly at 100% at the time.

Yessss, did you noticed how I clasified the Voyager as a Light Cruiser?

Yeah, but a Nova is really the type of ship that I'd send out to get donuts for the other ships.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Ahh, now I remember what the Nova-Class came from. Oh well, I still think it would have looked better for the E-E despite the Sov's clear leaps and bounds greater strength.

[Bob McDob]

I'd call the Akira a destroyer, for the reason that anything that fast and heavily armed with torpedos deserves to be a destroyer. Probably a destroyer carrier ... but then, there are lots of things called destroyers that carry fighters (Star Destroyers, Wing Commander ships ... well, STDs are definately battleships, and everything in WC carries fighters).

I guess Defiants would be borderline.

Sabre, Norway, and Miranda probably work better as destroyer escorts, seeing as they don't have the firepower to work independently. These would of course be primarily concerned with flanking, line harrasment and encirclement.

Steamrunner and Nebula probably act more as long-range artillary cruisers, bombarding the enemy from farther out.

I'd call the Galaxy a battleship, but then I'd call just about everything else a battleship in the sense that it's a ship-of-the-line. Actually frigate would probably be a better term. ST in general seems bigger on sailing analogy than dreadnoughts in general.

I think the Prometheus-B would invariably act as command ship.

Yeah, the Sovereign is a battlecruiser ... well, strike cruiser might be better, since they seem to invariably work alone, and was the E-E ever part of a battlegroup? (That and they seem too streamlined to be part of a battleline proper, and we all know about ST and looks ... well, I don't know)

[Typhonis 1]

That is an idea instead of being say set up like the Modern US navy .Could Starfleets ships be more easily categorizzed like the British Navy in the 18th early 19th century?