Opinion: Was DS9 the more "real" than TNG or Voy?

[TheDarkling]

Joe Momma:

Hey who cares if its a bit off the thread topic at least its interesting and hasn't been said here a thousand times already, yes I would expect that it will give figures on shield power if the numbers are run.

On the the warp issue, yes this also bothered me after all in generations the Ent-D had time to leave a system after the star went nova with plenty of time.

[Patrick Degan]

So we start of more useless flaming, it is possible for somene to have somethingother than this to do you know (although it was actually VS releated) however this is just more of your desperation.

This coming from the man who resorted to the first flames five days ago. How droll.

OK first off the Federation didn't employ genocide Scetion 31 did and they used it far before the beginning of the war and since they engineered the virus to look natural MAD did no apply.

I truly cannot believe you're going to try to say or even infer that Section 31 has nothing to do with the Federation government. Who do you think gives them their marching orders. As for your second muddled point, it doesn't matter if they attempted to make the virus "look natural". It was clearly a war weapon, and Female Changeling knew she and the Great Link had been poisoned by their enemies.

If it doesn't apply during the war then why didn't the Dominion pop anymore suns, despite your handwaving the Federation has shown a number of sun/planet destroying methods (as have the Klingons with their plasma weapon) the fact that you ignore these flat ouit doesn't surpirse me.

I see you're now going to refer to mythological sunkiller weapons supposedly possessed by the Dominion, which we never see or even have any reference to in the series, as similar to mythical sunkiller weapons supposedly possessed by the Federation, which we never see employed in the war or even referred to. More "evidece" which you just pull out of your ass.

Give me the canon examples for these weapons, please. Name the episodes where they appear or are referred to.

Your opinion < Canon

It's looking more and more as if you've got that ass-backwards.

watch the show please the dimension of the wormhole aliens was specifically designed to be inside the wormhole *Isuppose regular wormholes have habbital zone inside them ) and we are told they will survive the wormholes collapse - just accept canon and stop crying - you just keep ignoring canon, how can you think this is a valid tactic?

We've got Kassidy Yates being taken into the Celestial Temple without going into the wormhole in "What You Leave Behind". The wormhole is certainly a point of access to the aliens' dimension. But you're really got to leap to the wildest conclusions imaginable to say that the "interior" of the wormhole is the dimension where the aliens reside. The show demonstrates explicitly only that it is a passage.

It would have taken a torp before they beefed up how strong it was - you keep ignoring this we are told that its too strong at a later point and this is the real point in the matter yet you continue to bring up non-issues and you refer to collapse would probably kill the wormhole aliens whihc wasn't what SF was going for (why do I bother you don't acccept canon so you will just ignore this).

The statement regarding the photorps (multiple, BTW) contradicts the entire "billions of times the energy the Federation has" statements you tried so desperately to pull up to support your case that the Federation could not have collapsed the wormhole because "they can't build one themselves". Then we see explicitly that the collapse of the wormhole takes place despite the sabotage of Changeling-Bashir to stabilise it further. It is YOU who is ignoring the canon evidence at this point, Darkling.

WTH? so now it's Siskos fault for not bypassing SF command and setting up a teel conference, do you think regular Navy captains just out of the blue ring up specific CIA agents when they haven't been told they have them as a resource - No they have to go through chanels - you keep digging your hole a little deeper.

Shall we examine the Sisko's record in regards to his fidelity to the chain of command and following orders and regulations? Did he do so in "The Circle" triliogy when he blatantly disobeyed Starfleet orders to surrender the station to the Bajoran Provisional Government? How about in "The Die Is Cast", when he disobeyed a direct order to not go to the Gamma Quadrant while the Romulan/Cardassian attack against the Founder Homeworld was in progress? Or howzabout "Way Of The Warrior" when Sisko takes it upon himself to START THE FEDERATION/KLINGON WAR despite the Federation Council's position of neutrality in regards to the Klingon invasion of the Cardassian Union?

Canon examples, Darkling, where Sisko has shown a blatant disregard for going through channels and clear instances where he has disobeyed direct orders from command ranks and even defied Federation policy.

So much for whatever point you were attempting to make about Sisko's apparently slavish respect for channels.

My repetition of the same argument is because this is actually the first time you have actually addressed however since you still haven't proven it was within Sisko's power yadda yadda and yuo haven't proven SF is capable of it and so on.

No, it's more down to the evident fact that you've got nothing left in the tank.

No it isn't your believed the Dominin was being nice and friendly in its iccupation if they were then how would the 900 billion die? in armed ressitance, and who is know for this, why the Bajorans - this is obvious and you still haven't addressed this point.

You become more and more comical. The "900 billion casualties" figure was an estimated projection by three thinktank "geniuses", not hard knowledge. Do you actually remember that episode?

Theres no evidence of what ius happening on Betazed at all thus there is no corroborating evidence for the interpreattaion tat it was traeted well - we do know there was ground fighting and thus the situation was worse than Bajor.

"We know there was ground fighting" from where, exactly? Some post-series novels written after the fact and which have zero canonical status? The only statement made in the actual television series was that Betazed was overrun after the Tenth Fleet left the planet unguarded while off on training manoeuvers ("In The Pale Moonlight"). The series never addresses the Betazed situation after that point, and there is never any statement as to the nature of the Dominion occupation on Betazed.

Why don't you just admit that you are filling in the blanks with your own ideas of what happened instead of anything like canon fact?

And yet again you ignore that Bajor and Betazed are different and ignore my points and teh Dominion policy to do with Cardassia had nothing to do with the end of the war it had to do with the Cardassians being in open revolt however just during the resistance peroid the Dominion was killing civilians in the millions and using Cardassians and "human" shields.

The only way you can get that "you ignore that Bajor and Betazed are different" interpretation of my words is by simply ignoring what is actually written in my postings. The hallmark of the strawman attack. The rest of your attempted point degenerates into incoherent babble. I don't think you know what you're saying anymore.

It's clear tyhe Dominion will nmot tolerate resistance and the Bajorans would not have taken kindly t6o cardasian once again occupying their world (which is how it would have been seen), you have failed to address this point at all instead leaving in some fairy land were since we don't here about the Dominion being mean (which we actually do) then it won't happen , ever.

Stating that the Dominion's clear policy was one of political pacification during the war, which is stated to the viewers by Weyoun himself, and pointing out Female Changeling's clear inference to Odo of the Dominion's plans to simply crush freedom outright after the war is not "living in some faery land" And for you to say that I'm arguing that the Dominion "will never be mean" is the clear indication that you really don't care to be accurate about what argument you're addressing. You'll just put up one ridiculous strawman after another after another after another.

Heresa canonquote for you (during the Cardassian resistnce) not the revolt.

count on it.

WEYOUN
(on the monitor)
Let me assure you, we know that
these disgraceful acts of
sabotage were carried out by a
mere handful of extremists. But
these radicals must come to
realize that their disobedience
will not be tolerated... that
you, the Cardassian people, will
suffer the consequences of their
cowardly actions. Which is why I
must inform you that a few
moments ago, Dominion troops
reduced Lakarian City to ashes.
(a beat)
There were no survivors. Two
million men, women and
children... gone in a matter of
seconds..

WEYOUN
(a beat)
For each act of sabotage
committed against the Dominion,
another Cardassian city will be
destroyed.

This is yet more evidence that helps my case yet you refuse to acknowledge it, the Dominion has a standard policy whihc they use agianst ressiatcne even when its a supposed ally how would they treat resistance on an occupied world - instead of playing clever "we don't see it so it don't happen" games which have no relevance how about dealing with the evidence.[/quote]

Then you will kindly point out your canon evidence that similar atrocities were taking place on Betazed, please. You will kindly point out how your example of Cardassia, which is seen at the very end of the war when the Dominion is losing and the planet has been infiltrated by Col. Kira and several Starfleet operatives at that point in time supports your contentions on a situation for which we have not even so much as a single statement in regards to. We have the clear examples of the Dominion's political pacification strategy prior to that. That the Dominion sought to put down the Cardassian Resistance in the final episodes of the series is not being argued. What is being argued is what the Dominion's general policy was in their occupied territories while the war was undecided and when they were also trying to weaken the Federation's overall position.

Invoking Dominion policy from after the war is a red herring because Sisko wsasn't saving them from the post war dominion he was saving them during the time the federaiion couldn't hold Bajor - how many times before you get it?

In a word, bullshit. The Bajoran system was overrun; a condition which would have occurred with or without its having joined the UFP. The Dominion decided upon a political strategy designed to project the image that its rule would not be harsh. It's plans for the future of Bajor and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant are what would have unfolded had the Federation lost the war. Do you not understand this point? Had the Federation lost the war, nothing would have saved Bajor and certainly not Sisko's visions of the locusts. Bajor was saved because the Federation won the war, and because the Dominion had been compelled to withdraw when their reinforcement fleet was disappeared by the wormhole aliens and Federation forces were closing in on what became for them an untenable position.

Oh I get what I'm talking about you are using starwmen when you state that my argument is the wormhole cannot be closed by anyone or destroyed , you then attack thi instead of dealing with the true issue whtehr the Federation could close it withot killing the wormhole aliens.

Since the Federation had decided to collapse the wormhole regardless of the consequences in "By Purgatory's Shadow", it's clear that the safety of the wormhole aliens was not important in its considerations (which I had already addressed). You have indeed argued that collapsing the wormhole was impossible since it would have required "billions of times the energy the Federaton has". Shall we go back and examine the thread record? Will I have to quote your every damn word on the subject?

Again irrlevant first SF doesn't want to destroy the wormhole and secondly the search part 2 takes place before the wormhole was beefed up - if somenoe asked me to talk about the US invading Britain would it be of relevance for me to state that thety could do it with ease because all Britain had a 1000 years ago was bows and arrows? no because it isn't relevant to the topic it hand - neither is this.

Non-sequitor bullshit.

We are talking about closing the womrhole not destroying it and again the search takes place before the wormhole is beefed up - I have said this before and you just fail to address this again and again and again.

It's not possible to collapse "half a wormhole". Collapsing it is destroying it; it is causing the passage to cease to exist. And I'm not ignoring the fact that "The Search" takes place before the sabotage of Changeling-Bashir (which I've also stated outright several times). You're now down to simply lying outright about what I'm saying.

My Gos even when I point out I'm not commenting on the energy required to create the wormhole you continue to babble about it - I will have to hide a secret message in my post to see if you actually do read it

Insane babble.

I'm not arguing against canon at all (thats you by goign against O'Briens statement)

An error I've already admitted to, unlike your numerous arguments against canon material which have been pointed out at length.

the search is about destroying the wormhole (whereas the collapsnig of one end won't cause harm to the prophets using the plan we see) also this is before the technobabbled to a new level, gee if only we ad been told something about the wormhole at this point oh wait we were and you are choosing to ignore it without reason.

This is taking the Nitpick Argument to truly insane levels. How many different levels of terminology are you going to hide behind to avoid facing what is clear in the damn show?! Collapsing the wormhole, seaing the wormhole forever, destroying the wormhole, are different terms for the same damn operation.

Anyone watching this knows you hve lost Patrick and its sad that you think being a tireless rebutter will carry the day for you.

Claims of victory —the sure sign of desperation. What I've noticed is that you've faced attack by two other posters and statements by others that they never found Deep Space Nine realistic on any level. Hardly an indication that "anyone watching this knows I've lost". And it is you who is resorting to the tactic of trying to exhaust his opponnent into abandoning the field.

Ah I see because the wormhole aliens say it must be tru,e why are you seeking their favour, you obviously think of them of Gods - I'm sorry I shouldn't use insane troll logic.

No, you shouldn't, Darkling. It's making you look more and more foolish.

I asked you to find a quote from Sisko attesting to that and you failed, nice try thuogh but the fact is you lost and badly however I have already dealt with this point because I knew you would fail but still claim victory anyway - go back and adress what i said when I issued teh oringal challendge on this point.

Darkling, Darkling, Darkling... How eagerly you rush to your destruction.

Kasidy : "Did you ever think that you'll become so attached to Bajor that you'll want to spend the rest of your life there?"

Ben : "Hmm. It wasn't part of a master plan if that's what you mean. But from the moment I set foot on this station, nothing has turned out the way I'd imagined it. This was supposed to be just an temporary assignment, but its become much more than that. I guess I was meant to come here. You see it's almost like my, my-"

Kasidy : "Destiny?"

Ben : "Destiny, yes."

Kasidy : "I guess when your mother turns out to be part Prophet or part wormhole alien or whatever it is you want to call her, words like destiny begin to mean something."

Ben (looking at the photo of his father and Sarah) : "When I look at the picture of this woman with my father, I think to myself yes, that's Sarah my mother. But she's not just a woman, she's more than that. And when I look at myself in the mirror..."

Kasidy : "You don't just see a man, you see more than that."

Ben : "Does that bother you?"

Kasidy : "Do I act like it bothers me?"

Ben : "You're not answering my question."

Kasidy : "I guess when you first told me about Sarah I was a little surprised."

Ben : "More than a little."

Kasidy : "All right I was very surprised. But, the more I thought about it the more I realised what an amazing thing it was, is."

Ben : "I'm glad you think so."

Kasidy : "I do. And part Prophet or not, you're still my Benjamin, and I love you."

The Emissary and his girlfriend share a kiss.


"Penumbra".

Hmm... Let's see, he talks of his destiny to be on Bajor, and in the context of his being the Emissary and part-Prophet himself.

Elsewhere, in the Captain's quarters, Kasidy (back from her cargo run) talks to Benjamin about the preparations for the wedding, but Ben's mind seems elsewhere, "We need to talk" he tells his future wife. "Why do I get the feeling that I'm not going to like this?" asks Kasidy as she sits down next to Ben, who tells her about the vision from the Prophet known as Sarah, and how Sarah told him that "...the path I was meant to walk....was for me alone. That you can't walk it with me....she said that I would know nothing but sorrow if I ignored her warning." Kasidy wonders if Sarah's warning sounded like a threat, but Ben denies this, "...it wasn't anything like that, she was worried for me, like a mother would be." Kasidy wonders what Ben is going to do?

Ben : "Kasidy, the Prophets see things that we can't. If she was that concerned it must be for a good reason."

Kasidy (looks uncomfortable) : "You're not answering my question."

Ben : "Kasidy, I love you. And I want to be with you."

Kasidy : "Then be with me Ben."

A pause.

Ben : "I can't...." (Kasidy sighs) "...I can't go against the Prophets."

Kasidy looks at Ben, I see.

She moves away from him. "Kasidy please, try to understand" pleads Ben.

Kasidy stands up, walks away from Ben, and then she slowly removes her engagement ring and places it on the table, before picking up her bag and walking out.

"Till Death Do Us Part"

What's that? Is that Sisko saying "I can't go against the Prophets"?

What does that suggest to you, Darkling? At the end of the fucking day, are you still going to deny that Sisko sees himself in Bajoran rather than Starfleet terms? That he accepts what the wormhole aliens say that he "is of Bajor"? That he sees the wormhole aliens as the Prophets and not "the aliens"?

This is where the entire Sisko character arc is pointing, where it is pretty bloody obvious in demonstrating this throughout the series, and you're still going to try to deny it, probably.

I didn't deny any canon statements I simply dealt with them

As you wish...

I think next time I will just re paste chunks of this post to anything you don't address because its obvious that while you can keep repeating the same stupidity you are devoid of actually canon knowledge or reasoning based upon it.

Projection —the tendency to put faults and character defects upon others.

You are making a very sad spectacle of yourself.

[TheDarkling]

Funniest two lines in you post.

Projection —the tendency to put faults and character defects upon others.

You are making a very sad spectacle of yourself.

this is not a flame I just hope you can see the humour there.

The female changling knew it was a federation weapon? have you got a quote on that please.

Also section 31 is ineffect a stand alone organistaion (although I doubt the other races see it that way).

PLease Patrick - the above was a fresh angle lets not spoil it, to claim

I see you're now going to refer to mythological sunkiller weapons supposedly possessed by the Dominion, which we never see or even have any reference to in the series

When we actually seen the changeling try to blow up a sun is just silly, I'm not going to be snide or anything but just check your facts first please, it will cut down on the lenght of these posts.

Oh wait you actually don't rememebr the weapon (even though it has been mentioned in this very thread) ok the founer Bashir use's a weapon to nova the Bajor's sun but the Defiant stops him (her?, it?, them? ) just in time.

I have already mentioned that this weapon involved detonating simply elements the Federation has access to (and has used as explosives and as a sun formatter before) and it was made using a Federation replicators.

We also have the stella reformating tech which alters the elements in a sun using a Genesis type technique, this could easily be reversed.

Then theres Timissons stella re energiser (or some such) whihc cause tyhe star to go nova, this device is carried by a simple torp and is not very big.

I have said some of these before so i apologise for repeating but I just want to be clear.

As for this weapons not being used in war, if the US hadn't nuked Japan in the 2nd worl war would that mean then it couldn't use nukes as a weapon of war ever), for example can't ICBM's be used for war?
They can butthey have only been tested, while these weapons were only tested (for other reasons) they do have the effect an intended weapon would have.

Please provide quotes or reasoning to support your assertion that the wormhole doesn't contain the celestial temple or that Kasidy wasn't simply having a vision.

KIRA
But the Celestial Temple... the
Prophets...

SISKO
Doctor Lenara Kahn of the Trill
Science Ministry has come up with
a way to seal the wormhole without
damaging it or harming the
Prophets.

KIRA
But Bajor will be cut off from
the Celestial Temple.


You see here that damaging the wormhole equates to damaging the celetial temple abnd the prophets since Kira is so concerned about the wormhole being destroyed her first questions raised are these so it would seem the prophets don't exist apart from the wormhole (which has always been refered to as the celetial temple).
We also have the fact that once the wormhole was sealed all the orbs went dark, it could be argued that this was simlpy because the prophets were busy however this statement by Kira backs up another line of reasoning
that the celetial temple is the prophets main way of comtacting Bajor and that without it Bajor is cut off.

no it doesn't - I simply fail to convey what I'm saying I'm not sure where the fault lies but you don't comprehend what I am saying.

The Torp exmaple takes place before the wormhole was beefed up by the Founder the prophets closing and O'Brien's statement take place after take place after.

You seem to mixing up too seperate arguments - it may take more energy to close the wormhole than the Feds can muster.

Is seperate from

The prophets built the wormhole thus they have a greater ability to understand it.

Both show that the Prophets may be able to do things the Feds can't so their closing of the wormhole has no bearing on the Fed ability to do so.

You mix these up to be the prophets display more power because they can build a wormhoel or some suh, that isn't what I said and if you misread or I lead you somehow to believe that I am sorry however I have tried to make it very clear in this post because the way I said it last time seemed to be less clear than was necessary.

The circle - he disobeys orders to stop himself failing in his orignal mission and he suceeds (plus he actaully gets by on a technicality), SF brings no charges because in the end Sisko actually aids SF.

The Die is Cast - Sisko goes to rescue a crew member and is told that if he does something like that again a court martial could follow (or a promotion), aghain however no diadvantage to sf.

Way of the Warrior - Sisko does not start the Klingon federation war (it won't start for another year), Sisko also thinks he can reasonwith the Klingons proving that what he is doing isn't an act of war (it is simply a rescue mission not an act of war such as mining is).
He is also fired upon first and makes eevr effort to stop things escalating therefore in the end all he does is rescue the Cardassian governemtn and provoke the Klingons a little, since rescunig the governemnt and talking Gowron into calling a cease fire with teh Cardassians he once again severs SF's interest and he does not violate orders.

Your proposal : Sisko abandons a key miltary outpost to an enemy against standing orders and almost leads to teh destruction of the AQ yet SF simply ruffle his hair and them promote him to being an admirals aide after having him command several Key missions and then later a fleet of 600 ships).
Also none of Siskos crew question the wisdom of this action not even his head os Strategical Operations.

I cannot see how if he was in gross violation of orders (especially since SF not doubt reafirmed what it wanted done with the station) if got further key assignments, may position which I have explain reasons for fits the follwoing events and the lack of a court martial, yours does not.

However this is all a non-issue since you are holding him responsible for not siezing SF resources in his own R&D venture when SF was far better suited to the task - SF also took no action to try and find a way to close the wormhole again therefore Siskos decision to not carry on with this was also matched by SF therefore to claim that this non follow through was because of devided loyalties doesn't explain why SF didn't try to close the wormhole again my theory that O'Brien was correct does therefore yuo theory over rules a canon statement and fails to explain what we see - it fails on two counts therefore it is not the correct theory.

The 900 billion figure was based upon understanding of Dominion policy and the trends they follow plus Federation trends therefore it is valid unless you can prove otherwise and since they have have access to more intel than you do I believe that their conclusion has more grounding than yours therefore either disprove these figures or address them.

We do hear about ground fighting in canon and the status of Betazed is meationed again so you are incorrect on both counts.

SISKO
Second Fleet has hit the Dominion
forces occupying Betazed three
times in the last month. But
they're still bringing in more
reinforcements and fortifying
their positions on the surface so--

they continue to reinforce their position on the surface this indicates to us that the Dominion does fortify worlds it occupies, we also know that Benzar was liberated by the Romulans therefore ground fighting to retake worlds does occur, if the Federation sought to retake Bajor (under your argument about Sisko's visions not being helpfull) there would have been ground combat in addition to Dominion cracks downs on resistance thus Sisko did save lives and also made it easier to retake Bajor.

Please refrain from baseless insults, you state I don't have canon proof and accuse me of lying, I present said proof and I don't get an apology (or most often even a concession).

Please justify your position relating to the comparision of Bajor and Betazed taking into account the differing cultutre iof both and how the Dominion treates resistance since I have obviously misunderstood you in previous posts.

We know that the Dominion would not attack an ally we do not now how they treated the world they occupied, we do however know how they treated worlds that ressited them (Cardassians, planet from Quickening, Wyoun saying its better to destroy earth than allow it to be the center of a ressitance movement).

You equate Bajor the ally with Bajot the occupied Federation world the two are seperate.

On the Betazed issue you have said yourself we have very little info on what happens there thus to claim that this lack of info indicates that harsh dominion rule isn't taking place is rather silly (I don't wish to flame but I can't think of another way to describe it).

We have several canon pieces of evidence showing how the Dominion deals with resistance if you cannot prove that these were rare instances and that another attitude was prevalent to occupied worlds (not worlds they had treaties with such as Bajor) then you cannot contniue to claim that these instances were odd for some reason.

Also again the differance between Betazed and Bajor is relevant here however that issue is pendnig until you restate it next time.

I would also like a quote on Weyouns policy of political pacification please.

You argue we have clear instances of the Dominion treating occupied terroritories in a certain way yet Betazed and Benzar the only occupied worlds we nkow of have very little information on how they were treated you yyourself have admitted this therefore please provide evidence for how these occupied worlds were treateed and rememebr Bajor was not occupied as Weyoun was at pains to stress on many occassions) we also have Odo saying this.

ODO
I hate to say it, but he's right.
The Dominion seems determined to
show it can be a friend to Bajor.

This is because they have a treaty and thus it isn't an occupation (more info on this latter once I understand where you stand since you believe I don't).

Bajor had no troops placed on it if it was a Federation memebr it would have had troops placed upon it, I beg you nkow to drop this red herring about the future plans unless you can prove its relevant the visions were to save Bajor in the short term what does the long term plans of the Dominion have to do with this, I don't see the connection please justify it or let the matter drop.

I do not dispute that Bajor was saved in the long term by Dominion defeat - I have never contested this point therefore we can put it to rest.

What I do assert and which should be (yet the focus seems to be wandering abit) contested by you to support your position is the fact that if Bajor had ben a federation rule it would have had a harher treatment in those first 3 months before the Feds pushed the Dominion back.

As I have quoted above the safety of the wormhole aliens was taken into consideration by SF thats why the plan inovled technobable instead of a few torps - this is clear in the quote I provided earlier however it is also clear due to the fact that an exotic means wasused instead of a few torps.

Indeed if you wish you can go back and quote me and if indeed I have said something foolish I will either clarify it to what I actually meant or admit I was wrong, however if you refer to the wormhole being impossible to close I meant this from the Federations abilites and pOV since that is all that has relevance to Sisko and his choices.

I did not however assert that is did require siome many X times of energy to collapse the wormhole, I have already clarified this omnce however if you want it more clear paste the quote in and I will point out that i said it may have taken x amount of hat it may have been some weird ability however the fact remains that the wormhole aliens and the Federation doo have differing abilites and thus just because the wormhole aliens are capable of something doesn't mean the Fedration is.

It is possible to close the wormhole but not destropy it as we are told here.

SISKO
Doctor Lenara Kahn of the Trill
Science Ministry has come up with
a way to seal the wormhole without
damaging it

Therefore it can be done any arguments based upon RL physics over riding ST physics will not work so unless you have another canon quote to overule this one then it stands and what I stated is correct.

If you have stated yuo undertsnad that the search tackes place before the beefing up of the wormhole then what is the point of stating it since it has no relevance, please explain why it is relevant because I fail to grasp this.

It was not insane babble I pointed out I was not talking about the energy required to create the wormhole which is what you seemed to be stating if I have misunderstood then please clarify.

I have already addressed the fact that closing wormhole does not equal destroying it - yuo have a number of argument based upon this fact please refute what I have said or abbandon those theories.

Thi is not abuot the realism of DS9 this is about Siskos bias towards the prophets and it has always been the realsim of DS9 is irrelevant to the issue we are discussing.

I also have no faced attack from tow other posters they used questions that I answered attack implies a combative nature of the likes which this thread has devolved into.

You did just pull "I know you are but what am I right?" - its a clasic I have to admit but it is a bit worn.

He has a destiny on Bajor, I wouldn't disagree with that he was after all created (or his birth was engineered) by a race who can see the future thus as Kasidy says here

Kasidy : "I guess when your mother turns out to be part Prophet or part wormhole alien or whatever it is you want to call her, words like destiny begin to mean something."

I wouldn't contest that at all however as i have said you have yet to prove just because he identifies with the Bajorans means he puts them above his duty to SF.
The one thing does not equal the other thus while I agree with the point you raise here it doesn't actually support your argument.

While Sisko here does say he can't go aginst the prophets he has already dnoe so on many occassions prehaps after the events with the wormhole being closed he has learned to listen to the prophets - if soeone had proven to me beyond all doubt they could se ethe future and they told me not to go outside tomorrow then I think I would stay indoors.

I dont deny it because its obvious however your accusation of him putting Bajor first has yet to be proven for example a cop could arrest a member of his family even though they are his family if he doesn't arrest them then he has allowed his personal feelings to overcome his oath of loaylty you have proven that Sisko towards the end of the series (really only after he learns he is part prophet) considers himself of kin with the Bajorans/Prophets however you haven't shown that he allows this overide his oath to SF.

One last thing however from the very episode later we find this

ROSS
Benjamin, do you accept this
woman as your wife, to love and
cherish above all others, until
death separates you?

SISKO
I do.

Ross nods to Jake, who produces the rings. Kasidy
picks up a WEDDING BAND, takes Sisko's hand.

ROSS
These rings symbolize your love
for each other, and your promise
to abide by the vows you've made
today.

He nods to Kasidy.

KASIDY
With this ring, I thee wed.

it seems to me that once again he did go against the will of the prophets (and while it didn't lead to disaster he probably should have listened to them).

So I agree with hat you are saying to a point (Sisko says he won't disobey the prophets although on this matter his oath to SF isn't invovled) however later he puts his personel interests above theirs and since in the past he puts SF before himself that would imlpy that he still puts SF first.

I have limited flaming etc because after a point it just becomes boring instead I have tried to get this thread moving somewhere if you do as I ask and provide evidence and clarify some points we should be able to do that.

[Patrick Degan]

Latest round, I see.

The female changling knew it was a federation weapon? have you got a quote on that please.

Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick. Even you must see that it would be the work of a moment to figure out how she got infected —from a fellow changeling who had been in extensive contact with the solids of the Alpha Quadrant.

Also section 31 is ineffect a stand alone organistaion (although I doubt the other races see it that way).

A "stand alone" organisation which answers to the president and has other branches of Starfleet doing its dirty work when needed to cover its own ass.

When we actually seen the changeling try to blow up a sun is just silly, I'm not going to be snide or anything but just check your facts first please, it will cut down on the lenght of these posts.

Then why do we not see the Dominion deploying this weapon during the war? You're not going to argue that the Dominion was practising restraint, I hope?

I have already mentioned that this weapon involved detonating simply elements the Federation has access to (and has used as explosives and as a sun formatter before) and it was made using a Federation replicators.

Then when are the alledged Federation sunkiller weapons used in the war?

We also have the stella reformating tech which alters the elements in a sun using a Genesis type technique, this could easily be reversed.

I suppose you imagine that a nuclear reactor and a nuclear weapon are designed and operate in the same fashion as well.

Then theres Timissons stella re energiser (or some such) whihc cause tyhe star to go nova, this device is carried by a simple torp and is not very big.

Timicin had to kill himself before developing his formula to correct the defect which manifested in his stellar revitialiser, and there is zero evidence of its being replicated by anyone else or applied as a weapon. I've asked this before and I will ask it again: if the sunkiller weapons you insist must be found in the Federation and Dominion arsenals exist, then why are none of these alleged weapons seen to be used in the actual goddam war?

As for this weapons not being used in war, if the US hadn't nuked Japan in the 2nd worl war would that mean then it couldn't use nukes as a weapon of war ever), for example can't ICBM's be used for war?
They can butthey have only been tested, while these weapons were only tested (for other reasons) they do have the effect an intended weapon would have.

Hasty Generalisation fallacy. The atomic bomb was designed and built for the express purpose of using it against Nazi Germany, only it collapsed before the first bombs were built. As we have seen in actual history, the U.S. used the weapons the moment they became available and were not seen by any except a few of the project scientists and the military chiefs as anything but the newest weapon in the arsenal, and the one which would win the war.

As for ICBMs, their use was always in the cards in the event of all-out superpower war and were prepared for launch during the Cuban Missile Crisis and held ready to go at a moment's notice. The missiles never flew because the crisis was resolved diplomatically before it came down to actual war. But none of the generals had any moral qualms about using the things. See Curtis LeMay.

Please provide quotes or reasoning to support your assertion that the wormhole doesn't contain the celestial temple or that Kasidy wasn't simply having a vision.

<snip quotation>

damaging the wormhole equates to damaging the celetial temple abnd the prophets since Kira is so concerned about the wormhole being destroyed her first questions raised are these so it would seem the prophets don't exist apart from the wormhole (which has always been refered to as the celetial temple).

Here you've been accusing me of not making the conceptual seperation between the Bajoran idea of the wormhole aliens as the Prophets, seeing them as gods, and you turn right around and endorse the Bajoran idea that the wormhole is the "Celestial Temple" and not merely the interdimensional passage to the aliens' dimension.

We also have the fact that once the wormhole was sealed all the orbs went dark, it could be argued that this was simlpy because the prophets were busy however this statement by Kira backs up another line of reasoning
that the celetial temple is the prophets main way of comtacting Bajor and that without it Bajor is cut off.

Which seems rather to support the idea that the wormhole is the passage to the aliens' dimension and not the actual zone itself.

The Torp exmaple takes place before the wormhole was beefed up by the Founder the prophets closing and O'Brien's statement take place after take place after.

Recall that it was you who made the statement that because the aliens constructed the stable wormhole and therefore knew more about wormholes than the Federation, which hasn't the ability to construct stable wormholes, that it meant that the Federation couldn't conceivably know how to destroy the Bajoran wormhole, since it took "billions of times the energy the Federation has". "The Search" contradicted that argument. You fell upon that argument trying to support the contention that collapsing the wormhole had become physically impossible; an assertion which is contradicted by the actual collapse of the wormhole in "Tears Of The Prophets".

You seem to mixing up too seperate arguments - it may take more energy to close the wormhole than the Feds can muster.

How much more energy than that exerted by a single Pagh Wraith? Surely you are not going to try to argue that the Pagh Wraiths have more energy than whole star systems, are you?

The prophets built the wormhole thus they have a greater ability to understand it.

Nevermind the fact that Federationists and Romulans devised ways to collapse the damn thing and that the wormhole structure does not defy analysis.

Both show that the Prophets may be able to do things the Feds can't so their closing of the wormhole has no bearing on the Fed ability to do so.

Another hasty generalisation on your part.

You mix these up to be the prophets display more power because they can build a wormhoel or some suh, that isn't what I said and if you misread or I lead you somehow to believe that I am sorry however I have tried to make it very clear in this post because the way I said it last time seemed to be less clear than was necessary.

You don't even seem to know what the hell you're trying to say here, and you think you're making things clearer?

"The Circle" - he disobeys orders to stop himself failing in his orignal mission and he suceeds (plus he actaully gets by on a technicality), SF brings no charges because in the end Sisko actually aids SF.

His "original mission" was rescinded by order of Starfleet, and he was defying direct orders from his superiors. The outcome is merely incidental.

"The Die is Cast" - Sisko goes to rescue a crew member and is told that if he does something like that again a court martial could follow (or a promotion), aghain however no diadvantage to sf.

That Starfleet is reluctant to enforce discipline in its ranks (which helps create people like Adm. Layton) has no bearing on the issue at hand. Once again, Sisko is disobeying the orders of a superior and risking the Federation's involvement in a war it's not ready to fight.

"Way of the Warrior - Sisko does not start the Klingon federation war (it won't start for another year), Sisko also thinks he can reasonwith the Klingons proving that what he is doing isn't an act of war (it is simply a rescue mission not an act of war such as mining is). He is also fired upon first and makes eevr effort to stop things escalating therefore in the end all he does is rescue the Cardassian governemtn and provoke the Klingons a little, since rescunig the governemnt and talking Gowron into calling a cease fire with teh Cardassians he once again severs SF's interest and he does not violate orders.

Sisko does indeed start the war. He directly interfers with Klingon policy, in defiance of Federation policy. He alerts the Cardassian Central Command, indirectly, to the invasion. He had no damn business interferring in the Klingon/Cardassian War in the first place. He disrupts the alliance between his government and its closest military partner and at a time when cooperation between the two powers is vital.

Without Sisko effectively giving aid to the declared enemies of the Klingon Empire, actively intervening on their behalf, there would never have been a Federation/Klingon War in the first place. Sisko set the antagonism between the allies in motion and thus started the war; the actual declaration date notwithstanding.

Your proposal : Sisko abandons a key miltary outpost to an enemy against standing orders and almost leads to teh destruction of the AQ yet SF simply ruffle his hair and them promote him to being an admirals aide after having him command several Key missions and then later a fleet of 600 ships).

Strawman argument. In "The Circle" trilogy, Sisko was given clear direct orders to abandon the station to the control of the Bajoran Provisional Government. This is stated directly in the episode. Furthermore, the destruction of the Alpha Quadrant was not at stake in that time period, and you damn well know it. Or had you forgotten that contact with the Dominion had not even been made at that time?

By contrast, in "A Call To Arms", Sisko was indeed abandoning a key military post to an enemy power which was actively invading the Alpha Quadrant and with which an active state of war was in force.

Also none of Siskos crew question the wisdom of this action not even his head os Strategical Operations.

Utterly immaterial. That makes them guilty of violations of regulations and direct orders as much as Sisko.

I cannot see how if he was in gross violation of orders (especially since SF not doubt reafirmed what it wanted done with the station) if got further key assignments, may position which I have explain reasons for fits the follwoing events and the lack of a court martial, yours does not.

No, you merely try to excuse away what are very evident violations of regulations and direct orders. Starfleet's unwillingness to enforce discipline in its ranks does not render the issue moot, no matter how much you think it does.

However this is all a non-issue since you are holding him responsible for not siezing SF resources in his own R&D venture when SF was far better suited to the task - SF also took no action to try and find a way to close the wormhole again therefore Siskos decision to not carry on with this was also matched by SF therefore to claim that this non follow through was because of devided loyalties doesn't explain why SF didn't try to close the wormhole again my theory that O'Brien was correct does therefore yuo theory over rules a canon statement and fails to explain what we see - it fails on two counts therefore it is not the correct theory.

Once more, you proceed from assuming the premise of the argument as the proof of the argument.

In picking through your incoherent statement, what we have is a situation where Sisko fails in his primary responsibility, to secure the Alpha Quadrant from invasion. Whether Starfleet is providing resources or not is not the issue, and is less important than you keep insisting since he has technical resources at hand with the station facilities available to him.

The 900 billion figure was based upon understanding of Dominion policy and the trends they follow plus Federation trends therefore it is valid unless you can prove otherwise and since they have have access to more intel than you do I believe that their conclusion has more grounding than yours therefore either disprove these figures or address them.

You "have better Intel than I do"? The only "intel" is what's in the damn episodes! There is no higher source of information than the actual canon material.

What are you saying exactly? The thinktank geniuses were withholding information from the audience? They didn't share all their files with the viewers? They're met in secret rooms when the writers weren't looking?

We do hear about ground fighting in canon and the status of Betazed is meationed again so you are incorrect on both counts.

SISKO
Second Fleet has hit the Dominion
forces occupying Betazed three
times in the last month. But
they're still bringing in more
reinforcements and fortifying
their positions on the surface so--

they continue to reinforce their position on the surface this indicates to us that the Dominion does fortify worlds it occupies, we also know that Benzar was liberated by the Romulans therefore ground fighting to retake worlds does occur, if the Federation sought to retake Bajor (under your argument about Sisko's visions not being helpfull) there would have been ground combat in addition to Dominion cracks downs on resistance thus Sisko did save lives and also made it easier to retake Bajor.

One. More. Time. The Dominion abandoned the Bajoran system because its military position had become untenable when their reinforcements didn't come out of the wormhole. Sisko's visions about the locusts have nothing to do with this. The Dominion would have been compelled to withdraw in any event, regardless of what Bajor's political status had been prior to the war.

The quote regarding Betazed is not definitive, and can be interpreted as attacks against Dominion orbital forces, or bombardment of ground positions from orbit. You do get a half-point for demonstrating that the series does refer to Federation counterattacks against the Dominion there. But we are then talking about conditions during an active state of siege and not a contradiction of the observed Dominion political policy.

We weren't arguing about whatever occurred on Benzar. That the Romulans retook the planet from the Dominion is not in dispute. That is must have involved a ground invasion is logical enough. But your attempt to use Benzar as an example which somehow contradicts what we observed of the Dominion's political pacificaiton policy to weaken the Federation's overall position is not contradicted by conditions during an active state of siege. Neither is the Dominion's response to the Cardassian resistance movement, which I've already addressed.

Please refrain from baseless insults, you state I don't have canon proof and accuse me of lying, I present said proof and I don't get an apology (or most often even a concession).

"Baseless insults" eh? How many times did you repeatedly invoke a wholly mythical "respect for property" policy and how many times were you challenged to provide your supports for the assertion? How many times have we found you simply distorting wholesale portions of my arguments?

Please justify your position relating to the comparision of Bajor and Betazed taking into account the differing cultutre iof both and how the Dominion treates resistance since I have obviously misunderstood you in previous posts.

My position has nothing to do with the extant cultures but with the OBSERVED DOMINION POLITICAL POLICY of pacification to pull away populations under Dominion control to demonstrate that the Dominion was a power that could be "trusted"?

We know that the Dominion would not attack an ally we do not now how they treated the world they occupied, we do however know how they treated worlds that ressited them (Cardassians, planet from Quickening, Wyoun saying its better to destroy earth than allow it to be the center of a ressitance movement).

Weyoun's suggestion regarding Earth was assuming an imminent Dominion victory in the war. It had nothing to do with the policy the Dominion was pursuing while the war was undecided. Neither does the situation after the Cardassian resistance began active operations and sabotage, and at the time that the Dominion was losing the war. Neither does the planet from "The Quickening".

You equate Bajor the ally with Bajot the occupied Federation world the two are seperate.

One more strawman. I am making no such equation, and only a very deliberately distorted reading of my words even comes close to yielding that result.

On the Betazed issue you have said yourself we have very little info on what happens there thus to claim that this lack of info indicates that harsh dominion rule isn't taking place is rather silly (I don't wish to flame but I can't think of another way to describe it).

The burden of proof is to demonstrate evidence of harsh overlordship on Betazed. No such evidence exists, however. We do have the example of what Dominion policy in the AQ was while the war was undecided and what its political aims were during that period. This makes political pacification the default assumption.

We have several canon pieces of evidence showing how the Dominion deals with resistance if you cannot prove that these were rare instances and that another attitude was prevalent to occupied worlds (not worlds they had treaties with such as Bajor) then you cannot contniue to claim that these instances were odd for some reason.

See above.

Also again the differance between Betazed and Bajor is relevant here however that issue is pendnig until you restate it next time.

Again, see above.

I would also like a quote on Weyouns policy of political pacification please.

We have Weyoun vetoing Dukat's proposed occupation policies. We have Weyoun agreeing readily to rearm the Bajoran station security forces (though in exchange for Odo's joining the station's council). We have Weyoun negotiating with Jake Sisko for conditions under which he will grant a press interview. We have Weyoun going out of his way to assure Maj. Kira that the dispatch of 400 Vorta does not constitute the beginning of an armed occupation of Bajor itself. These examples point to a political strategy aimed at presenting the Dominion as reasonable. Subversion and bribery are part of the Vorta approach, as when Weyoun slyly offered Sisko himself an opportunity at immortality through Vorta cloning technology. This is not contraindicated by Female Changeling's plans for the future of the Alpha Quadrant, nor Weyoun's willingness to carry out reprisals when ordered to do so.

You argue we have clear instances of the Dominion treating occupied terroritories in a certain way yet Betazed and Benzar the only occupied worlds we nkow of have very little information on how they were treated you yyourself have admitted this therefore please provide evidence for how these occupied worlds were treateed and rememebr Bajor was not occupied as Weyoun was at pains to stress on many occassions) we also have Odo saying this.

ODO
I hate to say it, but he's right.
The Dominion seems determined to
show it can be a friend to Bajor.

This is because they have a treaty and thus it isn't an occupation (more info on this latter once I understand where you stand since you believe I don't).

Asked and answered repeatedly.

Bajor had no troops placed on it if it was a Federation memebr it would have had troops placed upon it, I beg you nkow to drop this red herring about the future plans unless you can prove its relevant the visions were to save Bajor in the short term what does the long term plans of the Dominion have to do with this, I don't see the connection please justify it or let the matter drop.

The "future plans" are not a red herring. Female Changeling speaks directly to breaking the solids' attatchment to their own freedom in "Favour The Bold". She says this to Odo.

Furthermore, the simplistic equation that Bajor would have been occupied had it joined the Federation is not supportable, no matter how much you dearly believe it so. For a start, as I've stated, the Dominion could not waste the resources for a full occupation. It needed a stable political base upon the system where the key to the Alpha Quadrant was located to be able to carry out itw overall war effort. Without access to the wormhole, it's position on Bajor is tenuous.

Even if Bajor had joined the Federation when it had been slated to do so, it's integration into the UFP would have barely begun. Bajor's political status would have still been in transition, and its membership in the Federation tenuous. It would still have been in the position to secede and declare itself neutral. Or it would have been offered a non-agression pact with the Dominion the same as it it had remained non-aligned because it would have served the Dominion's interests to do so. Just as it did serve Dominion interests to do so in the course of events as they unfolded.

I do not dispute that Bajor was saved in the long term by Dominion defeat - I have never contested this point therefore we can put it to rest.

A condition independent of visions with a very uncertain interpretation given Sisko's mental state when he received them.

What I do assert and which should be (yet the focus seems to be wandering abit) contested by you to support your position is the fact that if Bajor had ben a federation rule it would have had a harher treatment in those first 3 months before the Feds pushed the Dominion back.

That is the assumption you keep leaping to. An assumption which has to ignore where the Dominion's interests lay and how they unfolded in the course of the opening sixth season arc.

As I have quoted above the safety of the wormhole aliens was taken into consideration by SF thats why the plan inovled technobable instead of a few torps - this is clear in the quote I provided earlier however it is also clear due to the fact that an exotic means was used instead of a few torps.

The only person who keeps yammering on about the possible deaths of the wormhole aliens in this entire thread has been you, Darkling. Nobody else. I've said that Starfleet didn't take the fate of the alens into consideration, although Lenara Kahn of Trill may have done so.

But the fact that Sisko relies upon a technobabble plan designed towards insuring that the aliens will not be harmed (a very great unknown) first and foremost instead of a simple, reliable, brute force solution to ensure the collapse of the wormhole only supports my original contention, that his role as Emissary became confused in his scale of priorities with his role as a Starfleet officer.

I did not however assert that is did require siome many X times of energy to collapse the wormhole, I have already clarified this omnce however if you want it more clear paste the quote in and I will point out that i said it may have taken x amount of hat it may have been some weird ability however the fact remains that the wormhole aliens and the Federation doo have differing abilites and thus just because the wormhole aliens are capable of something doesn't mean the Fedration is.

And again, you try to say that the aliens' special knowledge makes an act of destruction impossible.

It is possible to close the wormhole but not destropy it as we are told here.

<snip quote>

Therefore it can be done any arguments based upon RL physics over riding ST physics will not work so unless you have another canon quote to overule this one then it stands and what I stated is correct.

Oh, I hate to tell you this, but RL physics is relevant except only where suspension of disbelief rules must allow a thing (such as warp drive, for example). Read the site for confirmation on that one.

If you have stated yuo undertsnad that the search tackes place before the beefing up of the wormhole then what is the point of stating it since it has no relevance, please explain why it is relevant because I fail to grasp this.

Another point which is asked and answered, repeatedly. I've said that it is relevant because you denied flat-out at one point that the Federation could have pulled off the collapse of the wormhole because of the aliens' "special knowledge" and that they had "billions of times the energy the Federation had". Now you desperately try to crawfish your way out of the statement you got called on.

I have already addressed the fact that closing wormhole does not equal destroying it - yuo have a number of argument based upon this fact please refute what I have said or abbandon those theories.

Denial of an issue is not addressing it.

This is not abuot the realism of DS9

Have you forgotten the very title of this thread, perchance?

this is about Siskos bias towards the prophets and it has always been the realsim of DS9 is irrelevant to the issue we are discussing.

It takes twisted reasoning to try to advance that statement as legitimate. Everything Sisko does or fails to do in the series does indeed bear upon the overall realism of lack thereof of Deep Space Nine. There is no seperating the two.

He has a destiny on Bajor, I wouldn't disagree with that he was after all created (or his birth was engineered) by a race who can see the future thus as Kasidy says here

<snip quote>

I wouldn't contest that at all however as i have said you have yet to prove just because he identifies with the Bajorans means he puts them above his duty to SF. The one thing does not equal the other thus while I agree with the point you raise here it doesn't actually support your argument.

The fact that Sisko relies upon an exotic technobabble approach to collapsing the wormhole out of consideration of not harming the aliens as opposed to a far more certain brute-force approach destroys that contention.

While Sisko here does say he can't go aginst the prophets he has already done so on many occassions prehaps after the events with the wormhole being closed he has learned to listen to the prophets - if soeone had proven to me beyond all doubt they could se ethe future and they told me not to go outside tomorrow then I think I would stay indoors.

Their view into the future (or at the least their word regarding it) is about as accurate as any prophecy —extremely vague. It turns out that things work out the way they would have even if the aliens had said nothing whatsoever. Sisko makes the decisions he is bound to due to the circumstance of the moment. The point is that we clearly see Sisko go from regarding the wormhole aliens as aliens with extraordinary abilities to accepting more and more the Bajoran view of the Prophets. Round about the episode "Asecssion", he has clearly crossed the line between diplomatic Starfleet officer and Bajoran religious leader.

I dont deny it because its obvious however your accusation of him putting Bajor first has yet to be proven for example a cop could arrest a member of his family even though they are his family if he doesn't arrest them then he has allowed his personal feelings to overcome his oath of loaylty you have proven that Sisko towards the end of the series (really only after he learns he is part prophet) considers himself of kin with the Bajorans/Prophets however you haven't shown that he allows this overide his oath to SF.

No, Darkling —you have done that by pointing out Sisko's resort to an overly complicated technobabble method to collapsing the wormhole instead of simple brute-force for fear of harming the wormhole aliens and cutting off the source of the Bajoran religion. And it is less a matter of his "oath to Starfleet" being overridden as much as his loyalties (re: priorities) becoming confused.

it seems to me that once again he did go against the will of the prophets (and while it didn't lead to disaster he probably should have listened to them).

So I agree with hat you are saying to a point (Sisko says he won't disobey the prophets although on this matter his oath to SF isn't invovled) however later he puts his personel interests above theirs and since in the past he puts SF before himself that would imlpy that he still puts SF first.

I am quite aware of Sisko marrying Kassidy (as you quoted) in spite of the warning from the Sarah-Prophet entity that it would lead to suffering. Given his trip to the Fire Caves, even if he hadn't married Kassidy, the result would have been suffering.

That's the problem with prophecies. They're so damn vague that they can be made to fit just about any situation.

[TheDarkling]

No I wan a quote onthe Female changeling knowing it was the Federatin, if you don't have it then you have no case, she may have thought that but remember the best infection vector was Odo and as far as she knew he wasn't infected becaus ehe wasn't symptomatic.

Section 31 answers to the presdent? quote please because as I recall Bashir saying Section 31 even had a spy in the Federation Presidents advisory circle, not exactly necessary if he was in on the thing.

The Dominion also started playing by the mad rule as for using restraint thats what you have been arguing all along although I disagree on the degree displayed.

The super weapons aren't used in the war for the reasons I already mentioned (mainly MAD).

No I do not but ability to chage the elements inside a star by reformeting it using protomatter sends very Genesis like to me and everyone was worried about Geneisis being used as a weapon, the ability to mess with a suns internals would enable some to trigger a nova I would imagine.

I keep telling you we do actually see the Dominion use one but for the rest of the war MAD applies, thats the whole point and the correct formula isn't needed since its the incorrect formula that is used as a weapon.

Drop this - They aren't used in the war business please since once again it isn't refuting anything nd only reinforcing my theories on MAD.

ICBM's weren't used in any of the conflicts the US has been in since the advent of said weapons, my point stands that sometimes you don't deploy your most powerfull weapon due to MAD and other concerns.

Find me a quote that shows the wormhole aliens don't live inside the wormhole since that is how it has always been presented, because you seem to putting forwadr the theory that the wormhole conects to the wormhole aliens dimension and then travels from their to the exit.

Or it could support that the womrhole can be sealed saying it supports your side just as much as mine is hardly a revelation.

DAX
Velocity is twenty kph.
(reacts)
I'm picking up an
atmosphere,
Benjamin...

SISKO
Inside a wormhole?

DAX
Capable of supporting life...

Suddenly, there is a bump... a reaction... checking
readings... glances at Dax...


And these class M pockets inside a wormhole have orbs floating around in them and display some of the "vision like" properties of the prophets dimension.

No while it isn't canon I can show you that my view is the accepted one with this

StarTrek.com
The wormhole is not actually of natural origin, having been artificially created by a race of aliens who live there,

now if you have some evidence to show that the Prophets live outside of the wormhole amd only use it as a conduit then I am willing to look at it but otherwise my view on things seems to be accepted.

No again you aren't understanding me quote me where I said

the statement that because the aliens constructed the stable wormhole and therefore knew more about wormholes than the Federation, which hasn't the ability to construct stable wormholes, that it meant that the Federation couldn't conceivably know how to destroy the Bajoran wormhole, since it took "billions of times the energy the Federation has".

so I can show you what I meant.

I said that the rophets had displyed the ability to create wormholes thus there ability to alter wormholes is more advanced than the Federations, I also said that the prophets may have more energy thus the conclusion is that the prophets may be able to do things the Federation cannot.

I make no statements on the amount of energy a Pagh Wraith has, if you have a quote on the amount they have then please bring it to the table, if you have reasoning based on canon events lpease bring it to the table however you don't seem to have anything here to support you idea no Pagh Wraith energy levels.

The romulans were going to destroy it and the Federation was going to collapse it, the Federations ability to collapse it was stopped by the changeling (Ref O'Brien) again present a reason why O'Brien is wrong other than (as I hope you now see) red herring of the prophets abilities.

I am simply saying quote me where I said something like what I have quoted above because I never remmeber saying it, I said somethng different and have explained that you are linking two seperate lines of reasoning.

No Sisko wasn't denying direct orders he was bending the rules however he didn't want to fail his orignal mission so he took that loop hole and ran with it.

No he doesn't go watch Way of the Warrior - A Fed-Klingon war doesn't start in that episode and the Klingons withdrew from the Fed-Klingon peace treaty before Sisko did anything.
Again don't state Im wrong give evidence please.

I'm sorry this here

Your proposal : Sisko abandons a key miltary outpost to an enemy against standing orders and almost leads to teh destruction of the AQ yet SF simply ruffle his hair and them promote him to being an admirals aide after having him command several Key missions and then later a fleet of 600 ships).

is your version of A call to arms not the circle but again if what he had done was such a hard breach of orders he would have been dealt with he wasn't and was in fact given more power which indicates to me he did the corrcet thing from SF's viewpoint.

Oh I see so now Siskos entire staff should have ben court martialed and yet weren't? thats even more silly.

No again what we ahve is you holding Sisko responsable for not doing something you have not yet proved was possible, again remeebr the three steps - you haven't met any of them and this constant repartition is going nowhere - Sisko was in no way at fault in thi incident I fyou had evidence you would have made a case by now zince you haven't youhave lost on this point, I have given you amlpe time to gather something and you have failed to make any headway on this particular incident in anyway - this segement of our debate is over.

You can (and probably will) moan about me declaring victory but if someone keeps shouting the earth is flat eventually you are going to say "you case is unsupporable, you haven't refuted my position and have no evidence of your own - concession accepted" this is what I have done.

Actually yes the think tank didn't show us the files they had and they did met off screen - please clarify this point because you can't be saying what I think you are saying.
Either bring eevidence to refute their claim of deaths or accept them you can't do anything else.

You are just unwilling to understand my position - I have explained it so many times now its unreal, Sisko saved Bajor your constant non adressment opf this issue is all the proof I need to convince me of that - you have lost on this issue aswell.

I am willing to continue on the isssue of the Dominion treatment of its worlds however since there may be something there however using the endstate of the war to disprove Sisko's visions meaning nothing is over.

I do however not see anything to support your assertion that Bajor would have been treated the same under occupation instead of alliance with the Dominion please support this claim.

We have no example of how the Dominion treates its occupied worlds you are doing this

You equate Bajor the ally with Bajot the occupied Federation world the two are seperate.

again.

I have provided enough evidence to supoport my position you have put up none others thasn t take Bajor as an example of an occupied world (which it wasn't since no ground forces deployed) as such you have no proof on this political pacification setup - I asked for a quote provide it please.

Thhis ebntire block of references to what Weyoun said has no being on who the Dominion treats OCCUPIED worlds unless you have some evidence my evidence wins out (the back history of the Dominion and armed resistance being the main one).

The Dominion scoring points with the Federation sort of supports your position of the Dominion presenting good PR but it doesn't show how they would treat a world in open revolt, I have shown evidence of how they do this please refute it or at least present some evidence of your own.

You refuse to clarify your point therefore I have to accept your concession on the issue of Bajor not being occupied.

The future plans have no bearing and I have no interest in discussing them further as I have already said.

Proof on Bajors status on a Federatin member taking a long time once they had accepted?
Proof Bajor would have got the offer from teh Dominion to break away.
Also this would have hurt the Fedratin so Bajor standing alone in such a situation (if you are correct) was still the right choice accept it helped SF - either way Siskos visions helped only this time they helped both Bajor and SF.

No an assumption that was excepted by everyone at the time of the episode (and probably still is now) that the point of Siskos visions was what i say it was and season six bears this out yours relies on dismissing the visions and equating Bajor to a regular occupation something I have proved it was not.

You make very little sense I know I'm the only person to take int account that SF took in account the safety of the wormhole aliens now since they didn't simply shoot the wormhole with torps this shows their fate was taken into consideration, Sisko even says thats why SF came up with the plan.

SF came up with the plan not Sisko yu keep blaming him for the actions of those above him - this isn't so please stop doing that.

I don't say any such thing at all, you fail to understand (through I choice I believe) at every chance - you stated that because the prophets closed the womrhole SF could I state that the prophets can do things SF can't therefore your assertion is incorrect now you twist that to say that the Prohpets superior knowledge abilities makes closing the womrhole impossible.
I can only conclude you didn't read what I wrote - please try to do so because it saves time and makes the issue less muddy (I shall assume it wasn't your intention to achieve such goals).

No you are over ruling O'Brien with real life physics - doesn't work but a "nice try" to you.


Once again you lie about what I have said and I have made it very clear what I meant - either you aren't reading or you are lying.

The womrhole aliens can do things SF can't thus because the wormholes aliens can do something doesn't mean SF can (as you asserted) this means that O'Briens statement on the wormhole not being able to be collapsed now holds against such a red herring.
I say nothing else so please don't make out as if I do.

Denial of an issue is not addressing it.

Words you should take to heart, I have addressed it you have only RL physics aghainst O'Brien and everyone else unless you have evidence other than that presented I accept our concession on this issue aswell.

No I know the title of the thread but in truth this has nothing to do with realism because lets say Im correct well then Siskos obeying of duty is realistic, now lets ay you are correct well Siskos devided loyalties can also be realistic - this little debate we are having here is a non issue to the actual threads purpose.

No it doesn't at all as I have expressed above both versions of Sisko are realistic.

Already addressed this SF doesn't kill innocents when it can be avoided therefore SF won't kill the wormhole aliens.
Also SF came up with the plan instead of telling Sisko to simply torp it to death, therefore you attempt at blaming Sisko fails and this is a dead issue since you have no position.

Some ofthem aren't prophecies though sometimes the prophets simply say "don't do that" thats not a prophecy its just advise which he ignores.

I have dismissed several issue because I was tied of you simply saying you had soemthing to back them up when you haven't unless new evidence appears I won't address those issues again - I expect you will complain but there cmoes a point when you realise its not worth the effort to prove smoething that is clearly correct to someone who will not admit defeat.

[Patrick Degan]

Had it not been for my net connection going a bit wonky, I'd have responded to this latest chapter-length post sooner.

No I wan a quote onthe Female changeling knowing it was the Federatin, if you don't have it then you have no case, she may have thought that but remember the best infection vector was Odo and as far as she knew he wasn't infected becaus ehe wasn't symptomatic.

I do indeed have a case, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. There had already been two attempts to destroy the Great Link from the Alpha Quadrant powers, and the Female Changeling can certainly know that Odo had been examined by Federation scientists and medical personnel from the experiences shared during their link in "Behind The Lines".

Section 31 answers to the presdent? quote please because as I recall Bashir saying Section 31 even had a spy in the Federation Presidents advisory circle, not exactly necessary if he was in on the thing.

The Federation President has direct control of the military affairs of Starfleet, and Section 31 is definiably a part of Starfleet, claims of their being a "rogue" agency notwithstanding. Starfleet covers for them as needed.

The Dominion also started playing by the mad rule as for using restraint thats what you have been arguing all along although I disagree on the degree displayed.

Nice attempt to twist my arguments around. I said that the Dominion's political policy was one of expedience, and made no connection whatsoever with its deployment of weapons in the field. That is your invention and no one else's.

The super weapons aren't used in the war for the reasons I already mentioned (mainly MAD).

You mean for the excuses you've invented to explain away why we never see the superweapons in use.

No I do not but ability to chage the elements inside a star by reformeting it using protomatter sends very Genesis like to me and everyone was worried about Geneisis being used as a weapon, the ability to mess with a suns internals would enable some to trigger a nova I would imagine.

It doesn't matter what it "sounds like" to you. The experimental devices for revitalising dying stars do not operate on any sort of Genesis effect. Simply because two different devices incorporate protomatter does not make them the same device.

I keep telling you we do actually see the Dominion use one but for the rest of the war MAD applies, thats the whole point and the correct formula isn't needed since its the incorrect formula that is used as a weapon.

One example of an improvised device does not translate into a hidden arsenal of sunkiller bombs which the Dominion's decided to be nice enough not to use, according to whatever bizarre logic you operate off of.

Drop this - They aren't used in the war business please since once again it isn't refuting anything nd only reinforcing my theories on MAD.

I'm not responsible for your fantasies, Darkling. I'll keep telling you that for as long as you care to invoke them.

ICBM's weren't used in any of the conflicts the US has been in since the advent of said weapons, my point stands that sometimes you don't deploy your most powerfull weapon due to MAD and other concerns.

The United States was readying ICBM's for firing during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They were about to wheel the nukes out and were ready to launch on a moment's notice. Your point falls.

Find me a quote that shows the wormhole aliens don't live inside the wormhole since that is how it has always been presented, because you seem to putting forwadr the theory that the wormhole conects to the wormhole aliens dimension and then travels from their to the exit.

The only people who say definitively that the wormhole aliens live in the wormhole itself are the Bajoran religious prelates. Religious belief and scientific evidence, however, are two entirely different matters.

<snip quote from "Emissary">

class M pockets inside a wormhole have orbs floating around in them and display some of the "vision like" properties of the prophets dimension.

So, I guess that we can also argue that there is a real baseball park and a real duplicate Terok Nor station within the wormhole by that logic. You've ignored the very evident fact that Dax's readings were taken under conditions which could not be trusted. When "stepping out" onto the "surface" of one of these Class-M pockets you alledge to exist within the wormhole, both Dax and Sisko perceive the environment very differently. This alone casts considerable doubt on the reality of what they were experiencing. No subsequent episode of the series demonstrates the existence of these class-M pocket-environments within the wormhole, and this points more to the encounter with one experienced by Dax and Sisko to be an illusion and nothing more.

No while it isn't canon I can show you that my view is the accepted one with this

StarTrek.com
The wormhole is not actually of natural origin, having been artificially created by a race of aliens who live there

now if you have some evidence to show that the Prophets live outside of the wormhole amd only use it as a conduit then I am willing to look at it but otherwise my view on things seems to be accepted.

I hate to have to tell you this, but "accepted fan views" carry no weight. A far more official source, the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual offers little to no support for the view that the aliens live in the wormhole passage.

And as far as the canon evidence is concerned, there is no word one way or the other beyond what the Bajoran spiritualists believe —which itself does not constitute hard proof.

I said that the Prophets had displyed the ability to create wormholes thus there ability to alter wormholes is more advanced than the Federations, I also said that the prophets may have more energy thus the conclusion is that the prophets may be able to do things the Federation cannot.

Which says nothing to the ability of the Federation to collapse the passage with a salvo of photorps prior to Changeling-Bashir's sabotage. You kept insisting that collapsing the wormhole was physically impossible, which is contradicted by the fact that it does happen in "The Tears Of The Prophets". Your parallel arguement was that the Federation couldn't possibly know how to destroy the passage because of their lack of knowledge of how to create wormholes, which is immaterial to what we observe in the series ("The Search") and the fact that in the real world, destruction has always been a far easier process than creation. Always.

I make no statements on the amount of energy a Pagh Wraith has, if you have a quote on the amount they have then please bring it to the table, if you have reasoning based on canon events lpease bring it to the table however you don't seem to have anything here to support you idea no Pagh Wraith energy levels.

I was not making any sort of statement along those lines and you damn well know it.

The romulans were going to destroy it and the Federation was going to collapse it, the Federations ability to collapse it was stopped by the changeling (Ref O'Brien) again present a reason why O'Brien is wrong other than (as I hope you now see) red herring of the prophets abilities.

It was you who brought up the entire red-herring regarding the abilities of the Prophets, or have you lost track of what you've been saying?

As for O'Brien being "the word of God" on the issue, that is why you make subsequent investigation of the matter. No scientist simply declares a thing impossible on the basis of one observation and never attempts to test that hypothesis again. Not if he knows his business. Sisko and co. don't even try.

I am simply saying quote me where I said something like what I have quoted above because I never remmeber saying it, I said somethng different and have explained that you are linking two seperate lines of reasoning.

As you wish:

No however since we don't know how the wormhole aliens did what they did you cannot claim SF can replicate whatever it was, they have the ability to build a stable wormhole - tis is beyond SF s its obvious they have better understanding of wormholes (especially this one which they built). Again if they did it by exert 10000000000000000x the amount of energy the Federation has then yes it is impossible for starfleet - this is yet another simple fact and not a point for debate as you seem to make it.

Page two of this thread, date-stamped 1.1/2003 12.25 p.m.

No Sisko wasn't denying direct orders he was bending the rules however he didn't want to fail his orignal mission so he took that loop hole and ran with it.

Ah, the "ends-justify-the-means" defence.

No he doesn't go watch Way of the Warrior - A Fed-Klingon war doesn't start in that episode and the Klingons withdrew from the Fed-Klingon peace treaty before Sisko did anything.

And Sisko's actions afterward set the two powers at each other's throats, or do you not remember Gowron angrily stating "The Klingon Empire will remember what has happened here. You have sided against us in battle. This we do not forgive. Or forget".

Siskos entire staff should have ben court martialed and yet weren't? thats even more silly.

For violating direct orders? Court-martial should have been the least penalty they drew. That's what military discipline is all about, and the failure to enforce it is what results in rogue admirals like Layton and Dougherty.

No again what we ahve is you holding Sisko responsable for not doing something you have not yet proved was possible, again remeebr the three steps - you haven't met any of them and this constant repartition is going nowhere - Sisko was in no way at fault in thi incident I fyou had evidence you would have made a case by now zince you haven't youhave lost on this point, I have given you amlpe time to gather something and you have failed to make any headway on this particular incident in anyway - this segement of our debate is over.

And again, I am not responsible for your fantasies, Darkling.

You can (and probably will) moan about me declaring victory but if someone keeps shouting the earth is flat eventually you are going to say "you case is unsupporable, you haven't refuted my position and have no evidence of your own - concession accepted" this is what I have done.

The sheer depths of cluelessness in that incoherent rant of yours, I think, speak volumes all on their own.

Actually yes the think tank didn't show us the files they had and they did met off screen - please clarify this point because you can't be saying what I think you are saying. Either bring eevidence to refute their claim of deaths or accept them you can't do anything else.

Because there is nothing beyond what is actually seen in the goddam episode. Or are you actually going to be silly enough to argue that a set of fictional characters in a plot are operating independently of the script they're written into?

And the figure projected by the thinktank geniuses is not being argued. What is being argued is that a projection was all it was. A statistical probability, not extant fact.

You are just unwilling to understand my position - I have explained it so many times now its unreal, Sisko saved Bajor your constant non adressment opf this issue is all the proof I need to convince me of that - you have lost on this issue aswell.

Because you declare it? No, Darkling, I don't think so.

I am willing to continue on the isssue of the Dominion treatment of its worlds however since there may be something there however using the endstate of the war to disprove Sisko's visions meaning nothing is over.

Which means that you will not accept that the progressive mental breakdown in Sisko could possibly affect his perceptions.

I do however not see anything to support your assertion that Bajor would have been treated the same under occupation instead of alliance with the Dominion please support this claim.

Asked and answered. Again and again and again and again and again and again.

We have no example of how the Dominion treates its occupied worlds you are doing this

You equate Bajor the ally with Bajot the occupied Federation world the two are seperate.

again.

No, I point to what was occurring in the series as the clear example of Dominion political policy, based upon their tenuous position in the quadrant and the fact that the course of the war was undecided.

I have provided enough evidence to supoport my position

You'll pardon me if I laugh at this point.

you have put up none others thasn t take Bajor as an example of an occupied world (which it wasn't since no ground forces deployed) as such you have no proof on this political pacification setup - I asked for a quote provide it please.

Back to simply distorting my arguments again and denial of what we see occurring in the six-episode occupation arc. Par for the course, it seems.

This entire block of references to what Weyoun said has no being on who the Dominion treats OCCUPIED worlds unless you have some evidence my evidence wins out (the back history of the Dominion and armed resistance being the main one).

You were asked to provide demonstrable proof of how the Dominion was conducting itself on the Alpha Quadrant worlds it was occupying during the war and failed to meet that test. I have not been arguing against Dominion policy in regards to armed resistance actively taking place, as you would have it. And I doubt your evidence wins out over the canon evidence of the six-episode occupation arc, which points to a political strategy of subversion and incorporation.

The Dominion scoring points with the Federation sort of supports your position of the Dominion presenting good PR but it doesn't show how they would treat a world in open revolt, I have shown evidence of how they do this please refute it or at least present some evidence of your own.

A point I have not been arguing against, Darkling.

You refuse to clarify your point therefore I have to accept your concession on the issue of Bajor not being occupied.

Once more, I am not responsible for your fantasies.

The future plans have no bearing and I have no interest in discussing them further as I have already said.

Rejection of canon evidence which is inconvenient to you. Also par for the course.

Proof on Bajors status on a Federatin member taking a long time once they had accepted? Proof Bajor would have got the offer from the Dominion to break away.

Reasonable given what we observe of the Dominion's political strategy. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the opposite would have occurred.

Also this would have hurt the Fedration so Bajor standing alone in such a situation (if you are correct) was still the right choice accept it helped SF - either way Siskos visions helped only this time they helped both Bajor and SF.

"This would have hurt the Federation" —which would have advanced the overall Dominion interest in the war. Beyond that, I will admonish you once again of putting the premise of your argument up as its proof.

No an assumption that was excepted by everyone at the time of the episode (and probably still is now) that the point of Siskos visions was what i say it was and season six bears this out yours relies on dismissing the visions and equating Bajor to a regular occupation something I have proved it was not.

A formulation you can derive only by the grossest distortion of my entire position, but I've gotten quite used to that by now.

You make very little sense I know I'm the only person to take int account that SF took in account the safety of the wormhole aliens now since they didn't simply shoot the wormhole with torps this shows their fate was taken into consideration, Sisko even says thats why SF came up with the plan.

It was the Trill Science Ministry which devised the technobabble plan, not Starfleet. The safety of the aliens was Sisko's concern.

I don't say any such thing at all, you fail to understand (through I choice I believe) at every chance - you stated that because the prophets closed the womrhole SF could I state that the prophets can do things SF can't therefore your assertion is incorrect now you twist that to say that the Prohpets superior knowledge abilities makes closing the womrhole impossible. I can only conclude you didn't read what I wrote - please try to do so because it saves time and makes the issue less muddy (I shall assume it wasn't your intention to achieve such goals).

See above quote.

No you are over ruling O'Brien with real life physics - doesn't work but a "nice try" to you.

I hate to have to remind you of this, but real-world physics does apply in these debates. An examination of the events depicted in the Star Trek and Star Wars universes by way of the scientific method and by review in comparison with real world physics and engineering is part of the entire approach taken in this website and informs these debates. And where actual physics can demonstrate that O'Brien is an idiot, they most certainly do apply, whether you like the idea or not.

The womrhole aliens can do things SF can't thus because the wormholes aliens can do something doesn't mean SF can (as you asserted) this means that O'Briens statement on the wormhole not being able to be collapsed now holds against such a red herring

And we have yet another of your pathetic strawmen. How many more times are you going to put this up? How many more times am I going to have to answer this distortion and that of my arguments?

You kept insisting that collapse of the wormhole was physically impossible, based only on O'Brien's statement which is never followed up on in subsequent investigation. Then when you have the fact that the wormhole is collapsed thrown into your face, you pull out the "superior alien knowledge" argument and energy figures out of thin air. My counter to it was that a matter/energy interaction evidently occurred, which demonstrated that the collapse of the wormhole was not impossible after all. This requires no "special alien knowledge", this is a physical interaction.

I know the title of the thread but in truth this has nothing to do with realism because lets say Im correct well then Siskos obeying of duty is realistic, now lets ay you are correct well Siskos devided loyalties can also be realistic - this little debate we are having here is a non issue to the actual threads purpose.

When it speaks to Sisko forgetting where his primary duties lay, it most certainly does.

SF doesn't kill innocents when it can be avoided therefore SF won't kill the wormhole aliens.

Ah, now it's a mythical "respect for life" policy of Starfleet's, is it? Starfleet doesn't kill innocents. An argument which is hard to sustain considering how they dragged innocent civilians into active war zones such as Wolf 359. How you love to multiply your assumptions and simply drag forth whatever imaginary evidence suits you.

Also SF came up with the plan instead of telling Sisko to simply torp it to death, therefore you attempt at blaming Sisko fails and this is a dead issue since you have no position.

The plan, as I recall, derived from the Trill Science Ministry, not Starfleet. And Sisko is indeed to blame since he certainly knew of the possibility of a Dominion invasion for two years yet waits only until the last 36 hours to have a plan to seal off the only invasion avenue from the Gamma Quadrant which he should already have had in place and ready to go. That is indeed his fault and one which is in large measure attributable to his confusing his loyalties.

I have dismissed several issue because I was tied of you simply saying you had soemthing to back them up when you haven't unless new evidence appears I won't address those issues again - I expect you will complain but there cmoes a point when you realise its not worth the effort to prove smoething that is clearly correct to someone who will not admit defeat.

Pot calling the kettle black again, it seems.

[TheDarkling]

Well i just thought you realised we aren't going to agree but I guess this back and forth will out last the board - to battle.

Concession accepted on eh female changeling knowing it was a Federation bioweapon.

Section 31 is in no way affiliated with starfleet and you haven't presented evidence of them being anything other than a rogue operation (they spy on their own preseident, if he had oversight he would have dealt with them).
No one knows of the existnce of 31 unlike MI5, the CIA etc etc, either provide proof or concede.

We know the Feds have super weapons, they don't use them.
We know the Dominion has them and they don't use them during the war.
Conclusion MAD.
We also have no evidence of the klingons or the Romulans using their super weapons either, this all fits with MAD your deneal of the existence of these weapons isn't something I have to deal with - they exist.

And both Genesis and the sun reformatter reformat the elements they are expossed to into other elements however play it your way it still does what it does converts a stars elements - and thus can still be used as a weapon (on a planetary of stelar scale).

No the dominion produced an item with an industrial relpicator that they could never produce again , I'm sorry but your flat out refussal to accept this tech doesn't interest me - my theory is sound yours isn't and thats about alll I have to say on the matter - I don't believe it was unrecreatable tech and you do - theres no point for compromise so we may aswell add this issue to the dropped list aswelll.

Concession accepted on your theory spearting the wormhole aliens from the fate of the wormhole - I have provided quotes and you haven't provided counter evidence - I win.
However heres another quote proving it isn't only the Bajors who have said it explictly
QUARK
The Prophets. The aliens that live
inside the wormhole
I could also retell the tale of how O'brien hitting the wormhole with some temporal technobabble would kill the prophets but I think I have already won on this issue since I have evidence (and a wealth of it) and you don't have any.

The pockets they stepped out into were detected before they entered them and were located within the wormhole, however this is really a non issue since we know that the prophets live in the wormhole.

Quark,Rom,O'Brien,Sisko,a Par'wraith and starfleet also believe it - this is all canon you haven't given any canon proof 0 these last htree posts have been on one issue and I have already accepted the concession on it therefore if you do rebut bring evidence or let it drop.

Not physically impossible just impossible for Sf - I have said this a dozen times you can't read and thus this issue is dropped.

Yes you said exactly that - reread your posts.

You take O'Brein (and Dax) as the word of God in the serach and this is later after issues have changed - you have no evidence and thus fail.

I have checked back and you did misunderstand I meant they A)Had the ability and then Again if they did this {closing the wormhole} be X amount, you thought I meant creating it and I apologise for the confuswion however I have cnonstantly corrected you on what I meant and you haven't corrected you line of thought - please do so now.

Yes I do remember what Gowron said howeevr its made clear latter than it was the Changeling who was pushing for war not Gowron and that once his influence was removed Gowron stood down - your accusation of Sisko being the cause for the war is absurd - he may have been a small factor but he wasn't the cause at all.

The think tanks abnalysis contradicts with your guess work, we have canon evidence of what the Dominions polciy is here your supposition doesn't alter that fact.
You have nothing conflicting with the think tanks figures except you unsupported conclusion therefore you conclusion breaks under teh weight of canon - so sorry.

I do not dispute Sisko was undergoing a degrading of his faculties during his vision episode.

Concession accepted, you haven't given any evidence for Dominion polciy outside of Bajor therefore you haven't got anything to base your political pacification theory off of, you can't prove how they treat occupied worlds I have shown how they treate rebellion therefore Sisko saved them - case closed.

Bajor wasn't occupied as it would have been had it been a Federation world - that is canon, you can't argue against canon - Bajor - no troops on lpanet, Betazed Troops - different occupation methods, Sisko saved them.

OK then so I suppose Sisko know has license to step up diplomatic science exchanges between the UFP and Trill?, Sisko didn't want to kill the Prophets Sf never ordered him to because they agreed in not killing bystanders.
Siskos not responsible.

Canon > RL Physics, RL Physics says FTL travel isn't possible therefore it doesn't happen in trek according to you.
Rubbish - O'Brien statement stands as lone canon evidenxce on the matter and you evassions can't conceal this.

PS Not physically impossible just physically impossible for the federation.

Those civilians took their chance and got on the ships, other civilians don't the prophets.

You have nothing, I have canon evidence which you ignore.
Why do you continue when there is only you and I reading this, yuo aren't going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.
Just let the matter rest - you have had an opportunity to pput forth your argument and it comes up short(in my eyes), you fail to modify it so its always going to come up short I am the only one adding new evidence to this debate you are simply grasping at straws.

[Patrick Degan]

Well i just thought you realised we aren't going to agree but I guess this back and forth will out last the board - to battle.

I'm game as long as you are.

Concession accepted on eh female changeling knowing it was a Federation bioweapon.

Oh, don't you try that "concession accepted" bullshit with me, boy. It is known that changelings share their experiences while in link. Odo and Female Changeling linked, and she would have definitely known of Odo being examined by Starfleet scientists.

Section 31 is in no way affiliated with starfleet and you haven't presented evidence of them being anything other than a rogue operation (they spy on their own preseident, if he had oversight he would have dealt with them). No one knows of the existnce of 31 unlike MI5, the CIA etc etc, either provide proof or concede.

Admiral Ross knew of Section 31. So did Sisko. Starfleet Medical covers for Section 31 when Bashir asks for Odo's medical records when he is beginning to suffer the disease. The only word that we have about Section 31 operating as a rogue agency of any sort comes from Sloane —who's word is not exactly the most reliable testimony.

We know the Feds have super weapons, they don't use them.

We know no such thing.

We know the Dominion has them and they don't use them during the war. Conclusion MAD.

Conclusion: bullshit. Neither Federation nor Dominion superweapons were demonstrated or even referred to in the entire series, no matter how much you try to inflate improvised or experimental one-off devices into the inference that entire arsenals of the things "must" exist.

We also have no evidence of the klingons or the Romulans using their super weapons either, this all fits with MAD your deneal of the existence of these weapons isn't something I have to deal with - they exist.

Then point out the episodes where they're either demonstrated or spoken of in the arsenals, please.

And both Genesis and the sun reformatter reformat the elements they are expossed to into other elements however play it your way it still does what it does converts a stars elements - and thus can still be used as a weapon (on a planetary of stelar scale).

And thus you continue to fall into the same simplistic equations; that two devices which use protomatter "must" be the same type of device; that an experimental or improvised device "must" indicate entire arsenals of sunkiller bombs which are never seen to be used or even mentioned as being possessed by either power. Because of that, you must invoke your invalid MAD argument, even though the Federation certainly doesn't operate according to such restraint when they attempt genocide against the Founders.

No the dominion produced an item with an industrial relpicator that they could never produce again

Then where are the fucking sunkiller bomb stockpiles? Name the episodes where the Dominion is said to have them, threatens to use them, or actually does use them in the war.

I'm sorry but your flat out refussal to accept this tech doesn't interest me - my theory is sound yours isn't and thats about alll I have to say on the matter - I don't believe it was unrecreatable tech and you do - theres no point for compromise so we may aswell add this issue to the dropped list aswelll.

Translation: you can't back your contention at all, so you're going to declare it proven by fiat.

Concession accepted on your theory spearting the wormhole aliens from the fate of the wormhole - I have provided quotes and you haven't provided counter evidence - I win.

Do you often have these delusions of victory? It seems so, since you simply decide to make fallacious declarations of such instead of actually demonstrating the validity of your points with definitive proofs. The series says nothing about the wormhole aliens existing within the passage beyond what the Bajoran spiritualists believe about their Prophets and the Celestial Temple.

However heres another quote proving it isn't only the Bajors who have said it explictly
QUARK
The Prophets. The aliens that live
inside the wormhole

And Quark's scientific qualifications are...? Oh, that's right, he's a bartender and hasn't the requisite knowledge to declare with authority on the subject one way or the other. That's like taking Kai Winn's word as proof on the subject.

I could also retell the tale of how O'brien hitting the wormhole with some temporal technobabble would kill the prophets but I think I have already won on this issue since I have evidence (and a wealth of it) and you don't have any.

Evidence you pull out of thin air, I'm afraid, is not evidence, no matter how much you like to think otherwise.

The pockets they stepped out into were detected before they entered them and were located within the wormhole, however this is really a non issue since we know that the prophets live in the wormhole.

Did you even read the whole part about the readings on those "pockets" being taken under conditions which could not be trusted? Or do you simply decide to ignore wholesale whatever is inconvenient to your argument?

Quark,Rom,O'Brien,Sisko,a Par'wraith and starfleet also believe it - this is all canon you haven't given any canon proof 0 these last htree posts have been on one issue and I have already accepted the concession on it therefore if you do rebut bring evidence or let it drop.

Starfleet does not believe any such thing. There is no definitive "scientific" statement on the issue in the series one way or the other.

Not physically impossible just impossible for Sf - I have said this a dozen times you can't read and thus this issue is dropped.

Yet more empty bluster on your part.

Yes you said exactly that - reread your posts.

A laughable statement coming from somebody who can't be bothered to read his own; also a dishonest one considering that you do not refer to what point you're attacking now.

You take O'Brein (and Dax) as the word of God in the serach and this is later after issues have changed - you have no evidence and thus fail.

My my, what a deperate little man you are. I take what is actually shown in the episode as "gospel" —the torpedoes being fired into the wormhole in the simulation and its subsequent collapse and not statements by the characters.

I have checked back and you did misunderstand I meant they A)Had the ability and then Again if they did this {closing the wormhole} be X amount, you thought I meant creating it and I apologise for the confuswion however I have cnonstantly corrected you on what I meant and you haven't corrected you line of thought - please do so now.

Not content with twisting my words about you now seek to twist your own to unsay what you said initially. Your "corrections" have merely been an extended exercise in trying to deny your sloppy argument in the first place and now you continue trying to twist your way out.

Yes I do remember what Gowron said howeevr its made clear latter than it was the Changeling who was pushing for war not Gowron and that once his influence was removed Gowron stood down - your accusation of Sisko being the cause for the war is absurd - he may have been a small factor but he wasn't the cause at all.

Gowron's hostility (a driving force of his entire personality) needed no prompting from Changeling-Martok, and the Klingon/Federation War did not end until the two sides decided to unite to stave off the imminent threat of a Dominion invasion. As for your continuing attempt to whitewash Sisko's conduct, the plain fact remains that he directly interfered in a war which the Federation Council had declared neutrality and did so directly by intervening on the side of the Cardassians. Far more than a "small" factor.

The think tanks analysis contradicts with your guess work, we have canon evidence of what the Dominions polciy is here your supposition doesn't alter that fact.

The thinktank's analysis was a projection, not fact. And yes, we do indeed have the canon evidence of the Dominion's political policy of pacification instead of harsh overlordship. Sorry if that doesn't suit you. I've already said that the Dominion's policy against armed insurrection was not being argued; only what their general policy was to gain political advantage as well as military advantage over the Federation in the war.

You have nothing conflicting with the think tanks figures except you unsupported conclusion therefore you conclusion breaks under teh weight of canon - so sorry.

Except for the fact that 900 billion Federation citizens did not die in the war. So sorry if that doesn't suit you.

I do not dispute Sisko was undergoing a degrading of his faculties during his vision episode.

Then your earlier statements that he was in his right mind are not and never were valid, and this casts doubt on the validity of his perceptions as his condition deterioriated.

Concession accepted, you haven't given any evidence for Dominion polciy outside of Bajor therefore you haven't got anything to base your political pacification theory off of, you can't prove how they treat occupied worlds I have shown how they treate rebellion therefore Sisko saved them - case closed.

Sigh... More empty bluster on your part. How pathetic. The only thing that saved Bajor was Federation victory, not babblings about the Locusts. Once again, putting up your premise as proof of the argument.

Bajor wasn't occupied as it would have been had it been a Federation world - that is canon, you can't argue against canon - Bajor - no troops on lpanet, Betazed Troops - different occupation methods, Sisko saved them.

One. More. Time. The issue regards the clear policy being pursued by the Dominion. That is canon. Conditions on Betazed under Dominion occupation are not discussed at all. No canon. Bajor was saved when the Dominion was forced to retreat from the system. Canon.

OK then so I suppose Sisko know has license to step up diplomatic science exchanges between the UFP and Trill?

Trill is a Federation member world. No diplomatic exchange was necessary to set up the intial technobabble plan in the first place. Sisko simply contacted them by subspace.

Sisko didn't want to kill the Prophets Sf never ordered him to because they agreed in not killing bystanders.

Sisko didn't want to kill the aliens because of their relationship with Bajor. And Starfleet's "respect for life" policy is already dubious considering their having dragged innocent civilians into active war zones.

Canon > RL Physics

A statement which is insane on its face.

RL Physics says FTL travel isn't possible therefore it doesn't happen in trek according to you.

The single most pathetic strawman you've put up on this thread to date. FTL is accepted under suspension of disbelief rules (as I said days ago and which is also stated in this website), but does not invalidate the validity of real-world physics in terms of discussion

Rubbish - O'Brien statement stands as lone canon evidenxce on the matter

"Lone canon evidence" which is contradicted by the canon evidence of the wormhole's collapse in "Tears Of The Prophets".

PS Not physically impossible just physically impossible for the federation.

And your support for this is... your wishful thinking on the subject?

Those civilians took their chance and got on the ships

Even you must see just how imbecilic that argument is. No authority has the moral right to put their own civilians in harm's way.

You have nothing, I have canon evidence which you ignore.

And once again, I am not responsible for your fantasies.

Why do you continue when there is only you and I reading this, yuo aren't going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.
Just let the matter rest - you have had an opportunity to pput forth your argument and it comes up short(in my eyes), you fail to modify it so its always going to come up short I am the only one adding new evidence to this debate you are simply grasping at straws.

And so in the end, you have nothing but empty bluster behind which to retreat. Your so-called "new evidence" has merely amounted to your invoking imaginary arsenals of weapons not seen to be used in the war plotline, imaginary Starfleet policies which are not supported by Starfleet's actual conduct, and repetition of the same tired arguments you've been wasting bandwidth on for the past several days.

About the only true observation you've offered up in all this time has been that we will not convince one another of the other's position.

[Vympel]

Ok this is ridiculous. I don't know if anyone else but me is reading this thread but I think the main reason people haven't pounced on Darkling like a pack of wolves for his ludicrous Federation sun/planet killer arsenal (not used even after war had already begun, no less, and never mentioned in any episode in the history of Trek, EVER, not even in passing, especially during DS9 where there was a fucking WAR) is because the posts are too long.

It's too bad this gem of old school rabid trekkieism is hidden under so much argumentation.

[TheDarkling]

Vympel:Funny that you comment on that and nothing else like teh constant distortion of canon etc being done and the outright insane claims.

The Dominion has demostrated the ability to destroy stars with ease, the Federation has also demostrated this ability to a lesser degree as I have detailed now maybe you haven't been reading the thread that well but if you have then why not rebutt the claim instead of just spouting off.

I made no claim of a giant Sun/Planet killer arsenal only that both side have displayed this tech and the only reason for them not to use it is MAD.

Good ploy though misrepresenting the thread knowing nobody is going to bother checking the claim.

[Vympel]

Vympel:Funny that you comment on that and nothing else like teh constant distortion of canon etc being done and the outright insane claims.

If I were to comment on this entire gargantuan thread, it would take much longer than a paragraph.

The Dominion has demostrated the ability to destroy stars with ease, the Federation has also demostrated this ability to a lesser degree as I have detailed now maybe you haven't been reading the thread that well but if you have then why not rebutt the claim instead of just spouting off.

I made no claim of a giant Sun/Planet killer arsenal only that both side have displayed this tech and the only reason for them not to use it is MAD.

Totally invalid reasoning. MAD only works where there is a pre-existing arsenal on both sides, and there are enough weapons in both sides posession to ensure than neither can survive. In this case, you have utterly failed to demonstrate this. What's more, MAD is only valid to prevent the beginning of a war. Once war has begun, to ensure victory, such weapons would be deployed, and this is handily demonstrated by attempted genocide on the founders. Your argument utterly fails.

Good ploy though misrepresenting the thread knowing nobody is going to bother checking the claim.

Fuck off. I can quote you line for line:

if you haven't noticed the ST universe tends to be a fluffy PC version of RL, SF didn't start using its WMD during the war either because they had reasons not to (the Dominon would follow suit) and here they had the reason's also (not destroying something other than their property).

You said it, not me. "it's WMD" implies that it has them. It doesn't. You have no soures. Not a single one.

[TheDarkling]

Vympel: I do have sources as I have stated and I have dealt with the Founders disease above unless you have a quote indicating the Founders knew it was a weapon? because one was failed to be proved above.

A single founder is able to create a star killer, a single bird of prey destroys a world using some plasma weapon, the defiant can posion an entire world with two Q torps and waste reactants from the warp core and then there are the other weapons I already mentioned (the sortof Genesis could be used in an atmosphere changing all oxygen and carbon on a planet into hydrogen would have some adverse effects for life on those planets I'm sure you will agree.

Saying I have not one source is a lie I have all of the above incidents now you can claim there are all lost tech without reason if you want but I will stick to canon.

[Vympel]

Vympel: I do have sources as I have stated and I have dealt with the Founders disease above unless you have a quote indicating the Founders knew it was a weapon? because one was failed to be proved above.

A single founder is able to create a star killer, a single bird of prey destroys a world using some plasma weapon, the defiant can posion an entire world with two Q torps and waste reactants from the warp core and then there are the other weapons I already mentioned (the sortof Genesis could be used in an atmosphere changing all oxygen and carbon on a planet into hydrogen would have some adverse effects for life on those planets I'm sure you will agree.

Saying I have not one source is a lie I have all of the above incidents now you can claim there are all lost tech without reason if you want but I will stick to canon.

You didn't respond to the points I made. AGAIN: MAD is invalid where there is no arsenal, for obvious reasons. So, either you claim they already have planet/ sun-busting arsenals (which, you'll notice, is what I said you had no evidence for) capable of the mutual destruction of both sides in the conflict, which has no support in canon and has never ever been mentioned, or you can continue extrapolating to infinity from known ST events to assume that these necessarily exist as part of the Order of Battle.

[TheDarkling]

OK then let me clarify by MAD I don't exactly mean they could destroy each other with one round but I mean that once they start producing planet/sun killing weapons and using them as a matter of course then there won't be much left of either side and nothing to justify the war.

This is why I didn't use the term MAD in my first post on the subject I then simply used it as short hand instead of typing out a little sentence each time.

However they do have WMD (on a planetary scale) so much so that a bunch of ill equiped rebels with two transports full of materials can create such a weapon, the Defiant carries around the materials necessary (torps and engine waste), Klingon BOP's also seem to carry around the plasma weapon as a matter of course.

Assembling and using the above weapons has proven to be easy for both sides, therefore they were holding back out of a desire to not destroy a large percentage of both sides.

[Vympel]

OK then let me clarify by MAD I don't exactly mean they could destroy each other with one round but I mean that once they start producing planet/sun killing weapons and using them as a matter of course then there won't be much left of either side and nothing to justify the war.

This is why I didn't use the term MAD in my first post on the subject I then simply used it as short hand instead of typing out a little sentence each time.

However they do have WMD (on a planetary scale) so much so that a bunch of ill equiped rebels with two transports full of materials can create such a weapon, the Defiant carries around the materials necessary (torps and engine waste), Klingon BOP's also seem to carry around the plasma weapon as a matter of course.

Assembling and using the above weapons has proven to be easy for both sides, therefore they were holding back out of a desire to not destroy a large percentage of both sides.

So, in essence they don't exist then- if they're not going to use them in the Dominion War, when will they use them?

[TheDarkling]

At least two have been used before as weapons however there are reasons not to use them in open warfare as I have already explained.

[Vympel]

At least two have been used before as weapons however there are reasons not to use them in open warfare as I have already explained.

As a vague excuse to badly quote TTT: open war was upon them. What was the Dominion War if not the biggest fuck-off no holds barred battle we've ever seen the Federation engage in?

[TheDarkling]

Yes but be using said weapons they would doom themselves because it would cause the Dominion to also escalate to them aswell.

[Vympel]

Yes but be using said weapons they would doom themselves because it would cause the Dominion to also escalate to them aswell.

Sorry I misread you- I thought you said that there aren't reasons not to use them. Never mind.