How does the Omega molecule work

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-12-25 04:45am

Seriously. The alien scientist synthesising it, believes it will solve their energy crisis. The thing with say making anti-matter, is you use more energy to make the stuff than it gives off. This is thermodynamics. The only use for anti-matter is that in the trekverse its a more energy condensed fuel.

But the Omega molecule supposedly provides more energy than what you used to synthesise it. So the only opportunity cost involves the resources used to make it.

Is there a "plausible" explanation of how this single molecule can have more energy than you used to synthesise it. Or are we going to use the tried and true Trekkie method of invoking subspace to explain it away.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-12-25 06:19am

In a nutshell?
No, there's no logical explanation for that.

Of course, since Omega damages subspace when it blows up, a connection seems likely, or something.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-12-25 06:32am

"Through the magic of plot"

It's probably something subspace-related, unless Starfleet has found some way to manipulate an ore to blast out near-infinite energy. That energy's gotta come from somewhere, and it sure isn't the creation process.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-12-25 09:39am

When in doubt use subspace. That's what I always do. But in my more rational moments I think about things like Data's perpetual motion batteries, cloaking device waste heat and the Omega particle and get a headache. Yes, think of subspace, it's less painful that way, either that or all the people walking around are raving loons.

Brian

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-12-25 11:36am

It's a heavily concentrated concentrated modulated subspace unobtainium isotope. Duh.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-25 11:39am

It's powered by wishful thinking.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-12-25 02:14pm

Probably taps into a subspace domain (kinda like a ZPM). Only, instead of being a funky crystal-shaped object, it's a weird glowy sphere thingy.

That's probably the point of the Omega Directive. Trying to make an Omega Particle probably carries a very-high risk of catastrophic failure, and the Federation is unwilling to take that chance. However, they also know that if somebody does manage to successfully synthesize an Omega Particle, then that faction will become essentially the dominant power of the galaxy, and the Feds just can't allow that to happen.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-12-25 02:35pm

But in my more rational moments I think about things like Data's perpetual motion batteries

I like the explanation given (jokingly) on TrekBBS : he drags his feet on the carpet and builds up a charge

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-12-25 03:20pm

Bounty wrote:
But in my more rational moments I think about things like Data's perpetual motion batteries
I like the explanation given (jokingly) on TrekBBS : he drags his feet on the carpet and builds up a charge :)

Wasn't that how the Daleks were originally supposed to be powered? (Except they have no feet, of course.)

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-12-25 05:52pm

Trek got one thing right (at least I think, I don't remember any carpet). Carpet is dirty, awkward to clean and animal hairs and god knows what else will get into it. The first thing I will do as futuristic emperor of mankind will be to ban carpets.

Now you may be imagining sterile hospital corridors. Not so. There will be all the manner of colourful tiles, not the kind without any texture but the kind you want to feel, hardwood floors too and the occasional stone floor. Carpet shall be reserved for hanging from walls. Also I shall distribute all the manner of fuzzy slippers to my subjects.

In short I hate carpet and the thought of Data working off carpet makes me ill. Daleks too if they work that way, they can go to hell.

So that this is not a pure spam post... As for the Omega particle making someone the most dominant power... I'm not that convinced. They would still need a way to harness that energy, and their materials science, weapons and defenses would still be the same. Put it another way if a thousand nuclear power plants appeared in America M1A1's would still be the same. It would be a huge economic boost but it would take time to ramp up the war industry to consume that much power. Meanwhile everybody's going to notice and go after you.

Brian

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-12-25 06:06pm

Heh, it's been awhile since you watched TNG, hasn't it?

The bridge is carpeted, as are the corridors. Hell, I think Main Engineering was carpeted.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2005-12-25 06:09pm

I thought it was the Omega PARTICLE.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-12-25 06:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's powered by wishful thinking.

How is the Omega particle any more wishful than hypermatter or David Weber Coretaps they both pull something from somewhere else.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2005-12-25 06:36pm

Or the Culture's grid (I just thought of another one).

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2005-12-25 06:38pm

Something, that is especially annoying about the omega particle:
You can "beam" it. If you can beam it you can easily replicate it, so why is it so "hard" to produce?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-12-25 07:28pm

Antares wrote:Something, that is especially annoying about the omega particle:
You can "beam" it. If you can beam it you can easily replicate it, so why is it so "hard" to produce?

Just because you can transport something doesn't mean you can create it from scratch. You have to have the base compounds/elements needed to synthesize it to begin with.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-12-25 08:51pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Bounty wrote:
But in my more rational moments I think about things like Data's perpetual motion batteries
I like the explanation given (jokingly) on TrekBBS : he drags his feet on the carpet and builds up a charge
Wasn't that how the Daleks were originally supposed to be powered? (Except they have no feet, of course.)

The original Daleks were powered by static electricity in their city. Since they their technology has improved considerably. There is a reason why Necronlord's fanfic has Daleks trashing the Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta quadrants.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-12-25 10:00pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Heh, it's been awhile since you watched TNG, hasn't it?

The bridge is carpeted, as are the corridors. Hell, I think Main Engineering was carpeted.

You caught me... the last time I watched any TNG at all I didn't have any hairs on my balls lol... okay more than you need to know

.

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-12-25 11:04pm

dragon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's powered by wishful thinking.
How is the Omega particle any more wishful than hypermatter or David Weber Coretaps they both pull something from somewhere else.

Don't know about coretaps, but Star Wars hypermatter is produced at huge fueling stations where the requisite amount of energy is poured into the process in the first place. Omega molecules, on the other hand, appear to produce energy in excess of what was used to make them.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-12-25 11:23pm

I'm reading The Gods Themselves by Issac Asimov right now. A scientist invented something called the "Inverted-Electron Pump" that lets him take energy from a parallel universe through some technobabble. Now Earth's 2 billion citizens live in a virtual paradise, free energy. The idea is not new, nothing is new with the volume of SF out there it's all been done before.

Trek is just annoying because it purports to be the be-all-end-all of real science. I really don't have a problem turning off my brain when I'm watching television or reading, I grant the premise automatically. If the show is about Omega and they say Omega does something I don't go right away and call it bullshit. It's the execution that matters and I don't remember this particular VOY episode to comment on it, but I bet the execution was terrible.

Brian

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-12-25 11:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:
dragon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's powered by wishful thinking.
How is the Omega particle any more wishful than hypermatter or David Weber Coretaps they both pull something from somewhere else.
Don't know about coretaps, but Star Wars hypermatter is produced at huge fueling stations where the requisite amount of energy is poured into the process in the first place. Omega molecules, on the other hand, appear to produce energy in excess of what was used to make them.

Ok guess I had the wrong idea behind hypermatter. After all the cut away of the DS shows no fuel tanks in SWICS and I have heard people on this board says it existed outside of our normal universe which is why it has such a high energy density.

As for coretaps they are used to power David Webers plantoids. They pull energy out of a different universe with a higher energy state.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2005-12-26 02:51am

brianeyci wrote:I'm reading The Gods Themselves by Issac Asimov right now. A scientist invented something called the "Inverted-Electron Pump" that lets him take energy from a parallel universe through some technobabble. Now Earth's 2 billion citizens live in a virtual paradise, free energy. The idea is not new, nothing is new with the volume of SF out there it's all been done before.

Trek is just annoying because it purports to be the be-all-end-all of real science. I really don't have a problem turning off my brain when I'm watching television or reading, I grant the premise automatically. If the show is about Omega and they say Omega does something I don't go right away and call it bullshit. It's the execution that matters and I don't remember this particular VOY episode to comment on it, but I bet the execution was terrible.

Brian

I have the episode handy - there's nothing really wrong with the way they explained it. The Federation (or any of the races the Borg have assimilated) really know what Omega is. Janeway mentioned the prevailing theory in the Federation is that Omega was the cause of the Big Bang. The Borg regard Omega as being perfect... the execution was fine believable as far made up things in sci-fi go.

As for the topic, I'd agree with the theory of Omega getting energy via subspace. At least we have some precident for things in real-space getting energy from subspace with the soloton wave (which explains how it was able to grow in power as it did) - so it's not really beyond the realm of possibility.

Maybe the process of creating an Omega particle pulls the molecule from a subspace realm where the laws of physics are different, to explain how you could have that much energy in just 1 molecule? *shrug*

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-12-26 03:30am

Groan the soliton wave... was that actually explained canonically as taking energy from subspace...

...a lot of Treknology seems to need subspace. I don't really mind, I just fucking wish they would leave it up to the reader's imagination than invent pseudoscience. And Trek is over so there's no point bitching, but there you have it. Some things are really better left unexplained, even Spock the Nerd didn't say half the mumbo-jumbo a B'Elanna or a Geordi or a Dax says.

The annoyance with the Omega episode IIRC is the usual Trek approach of "technology solves everything."

Brian

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2005-12-26 03:50am

brianeyci wrote:Groan the soliton wave... was that actually explained canonically as taking energy from subspace...

...a lot of Treknology seems to need subspace. I don't really mind, I just fucking wish they would leave it up to the reader's imagination than invent pseudoscience. And Trek is over so there's no point bitching, but there you have it. Some things are really better left unexplained, even Spock the Nerd didn't say half the mumbo-jumbo a B'Elanna or a Geordi or a Dax says.

The annoyance with the Omega episode IIRC is the usual Trek approach of "technology solves everything."

Brian

Honestly I haven't seen the ep with the Soloton Wave in years, so I couldn't say if it was directly mentioned it tapped energy from subspace. But considering the fact that it wasn't recieving power from the base that initiated it, or the base that was supposed to stop it, yet it grew by several factors (or did it grow by orders of magnitude?) - whatever, but it was drawing energy from somewhere - subspace is the only likely culprit from all of the analysis of this event I've seen.

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2005-12-26 06:53am

brianeyci wrote:Some things are really better left unexplained, even Spock the Nerd didn't say half the mumbo-jumbo a B'Elanna or a Geordi or a Dax says.

Actualy, Geordi or Dax keep it to tolerable levels most of the time, it's Voyager that really brought treknobable to unberable levels. It's especialy obvious if you watch voyager just after say ds9. You really get a feeling of "OMG! What bullshit!"...