[IvP] Mark Four.

[SirNitram]

Third Thread.

Behave yourselves, cretins. The rules still apply.

[MKSheppard]

*runs into thread naked*

Heh. Seriously, lets see;

Iran’s Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Muttaki, called for a ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel, prior to a prisoner exchange.

Muttaki said that, first, Israel’s attack must cease.

[Darth Mortis]

Wow, even I may have a problem with this

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203899,00.html

Israeli Warplanes Bomb Palestinian Foreign Ministry for Second Time
Monday, July 17, 2006

PHOTOS VIDEO PHOTO ESSAYS

Click image to enlarge
Photo Essays:•Mideast Spirals Into Chaos•Mideast War EscalatesSTORIES BACKGROUND LINKS
•Hezbollah Rockets Reach Deeper Into Israel •Putin Doesn't Regret Inviting Hamas Leaders to Moscow•Hezbollah Chief Appears on TV•U.S. Security Teams Arrive in Lebanon to Plan Evacuation of Americans•Israeli Security Chief: Israeli Soldier Captured By Gaza Militants is Alive•Italy Relays Israeli Demands for Soldiers' Release, Lebanon Says•Cabinet: Lebanon Faces 'Real Annihilation,' Accuses Israel of Using Banned Weapons•Lebanese Seaports, Road Networks Destroyed in Mideast War•Lebanese Guerillas Fire Rockets Into Israel
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel sent a warplane to bomb the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building in Gaza City early Monday, the second airstrike on the ministry in a week, pushing ahead with its three-week offensive in Gaza after militants killed two soldiers and captured a third.

An Associated Press reporter on the scene saw clouds of smoke rising from the already damaged building after the strike by an Israeli warplane. At least nine people in nearby houses were injured, rescue workers said.

The Israeli military confirmed it struck the Palestinian Foreign Ministry as "part of ongoing operations."

• Hezbollah Rockets Rain Down on Israel

The huge blast collapsed an eight-story wing of the building and damaged houses in a wide area around the ministry. Black smoke covered the area as police vehicles and ambulances raced in, sirens blaring.

At least 50 apartments were severely damaged. Windows were shattered, furniture wrecked and several walls blown down. Stores on ground floor levels had their doors blown off. The other four ministries in the same compound were also damaged in the explosion.

The ministry was empty at the time of the strike, 1:20 a.m.

(Story continues below)

ADVERTISEMENTSAdvertise Here



Israel bombed the same building on Thursday, saying it was used to plan terror attacks. The Palestinian foreign minister is Mahmoud Zahar, a top Hamas leader.

Israel has been attacking Gaza since June 28, three days after Hamas-linked militants tunneled under the border and attacked an Israeli army post at a Gaza crossing, killing two soldiers and capturing a third.

CountryWatch: Israel

An hour earlier, Israeli aircraft fired at least five missiles at Palestinian militants during battles in northern Gaza early Monday, Palestinian security officials said.

At least two militants were wounded, hospital officials said.

Palestinian security officials said three of the missiles were aimed at militants firing rocket-propelled grenades near the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, across from the Israeli town of Sderot, a frequent target of Palestinian rockets.

Another missile was aimed at a Hamas office in the Jebaliya refugee camp, setting it on fire, residents said. No one was hurt. Also, an aircraft fired a missile at a farm building where militants were thought to be hiding. Ambulances were racing to the scene.

The military confirmed that its forces have been firing missiles in northern Gaza but had no further details.

Israeli forces moved back into northern Gaza early Sunday, 10 days after completing a two-day sweep aimed at confronting militants who have been firing rockets at Israel.

Israel said its Gaza offensive was meant to win the soldier's release and to end Palestinian rocket fire at Israeli communities around Gaza. Two rockets fired during the offensive reached as far as the city of Ashkelon, 7 miles northeast of Gaza.

Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told Israel's Cabinet on Sunday that he believed Shalit was still alive, according to a participant in the meeting.

[SirNitram]

*runs into thread naked*

Heh. Seriously, lets see;

Iran’s Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Muttaki, called for a ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel, prior to a prisoner exchange.

Muttaki said that, first, Israel’s attack must cease.

How much influence does Iran wield over Lebanon is the question. Though honestly, I'm quite happy to support efforts to end this, even by those loons.

[Darth Mortis]

*runs into thread naked*

Heh. Seriously, lets see;

Iran’s Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Muttaki, called for a ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel, prior to a prisoner exchange.

Muttaki said that, first, Israel’s attack must cease.

How much influence does Iran wield over Lebanon is the question. Though honestly, I'm quite happy to support efforts to end this, even by those loons.

Great question. I think Iran is the puppet master and hopefully they can cut the cord soon. Isreal is now claiming Iran has Long Range missles in Lebanon and they have destroyed them.

[Coyote]

Has Israel pulled back to its pre-June 1967 borders? No? Then what's with the bullshit of demanding any of Israel's neighbors abide by UN resolutions? I'd prefer that treaties (like the UN charter) are obeyed, but I'm not holding my breath.

Actually, as far as Lebanon is concerned, they have pulled back to the June 1967 borders. Hezbollah has no excuse: they formed to kick Israel out of Lebanon. Israel left Lebanon. Hezbollah's raison d'etre vanished. But Hezbollah did not. Unless you see all Arabs as a monolithic mass, in which fighting by Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon is supposed to bring some sort of change in the status of the Golan Heights and the West Bank.

Bear in mind, as far as treaties went, Israel also pulled out of the Gaza Strip (another 1967 border) and very publicly stated a willingness to do the same with the West Bank; in the early days of the Ariel Sharon government it was even announced that they would be willing to return the Golan in exchange for a serious and realistic peace treaty with the Syrians, which the Syrians more or less blew off.

Israel, lately, has actually tried to come to diplomatic accords and what they've gotten in return is Kassam rockets and cross-border raids. The diplomacy ball was firmly in Arab hands and as far as Hezbollah/Lebanon and the Palestinians are concerned, it has been fumbled.

I do reserve the right to call a spade a spade and to say that bombing and invading another country without just cause, a formal declaration of war, or any restraint or proportionality is a war crime, no matter who does it.

So sate my curiosity: what would you say Israel could have done under the circumstances that would be "fair" and "just"? How could the IDF secure the borders and safeguard their citizens considering the rocket attacks, raids, and so on?

[Darth Mortis]

Apparently Isreal should have released war criminals to satisfy the Hamas group. I don't know how many "innocent" people are in the Isreali jails, but I venture to be most are terroists and killers.

[Axis Kast]

How much influence does Iran wield over Lebanon is the question. Though honestly, I'm quite happy to support efforts to end this, even by those loons.

If Israel enters into yet another prisoner exchange, it will merely confirm the sentiment among terrorist groups that one can free dozens - if not hundreds - of Palestinians merely by capturing one or two Israelis (perhaps even killing them in the process). Indeed, it may even lead to new attacks in which groups like Hezbollah and Hamas hope to provoke Israeli ire, leading to new civilian casualties among Arab populations and further attempts at "mediation" that end up restraining Israel short of eviscreating terrorist organiations and awarding extortion.

[K. A. Pital]

end up restraining Israel short of eviscreating terrorist organiation

So how much of Hezbollah has Israel "eviscreated" with it's oh-so-brilliant doctrines?

[SirNitram]

You know, Kast's little fit is a tangent. Removing from IvP.

Time in!

[Edi]

I do reserve the right to call a spade a spade and to say that bombing and invading another country without just cause, a formal declaration of war, or any restraint or proportionality is a war crime, no matter who does it.

So sate my curiosity: what would you say Israel could have done under the circumstances that would be "fair" and "just"? How could the IDF secure the borders and safeguard their citizens considering the rocket attacks, raids, and so on?

Bomb and shell the fuck out of the Hizbollah controlled areas, which would be most of southern Lebanon and the Shi'ite areas of Beirut. Leave the rest of the country alone and/or limit strikes there to carefully planned precision guided strikes with accurate munitions and perhaps assassinations and such.

The whole fucking country is a mixing pot of Arab Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shi'ites, Armenians and others and has a long history of civil war, being occupied by foreign powers and has a weak government. The rest of the country very much wants Hizbolaah disarmed and eliminated as a semi-independent organization, but they just don't have the muscle to do it without the whole place erupting in more civil war. So it's fucking retarded of Israel to treat them as a more or less monolithic entity where the civilian infra is concerned, because it's counterproductive. If they'd shown more restraint and gone apeshit just on the Shi'ites and Hizbollah, there wouldn't be half this much shit being fliung around the issue.

Edi

[Lord Zentei]

Clarification: I meant in terms of representation among the populace, not power, since they have 2/3 of the second largest coalition in parliament, obviously.

Here's a little clue, being in the group with the second largest number of seats in a parlimentary system makes you the opposition, not the government.

Unless, of course, you have seats in the government, like Hezbollah does, which would make you a part of a wider coalition.

[Keevan_Colton]

I do reserve the right to call a spade a spade and to say that bombing and invading another country without just cause, a formal declaration of war, or any restraint or proportionality is a war crime, no matter who does it.

So sate my curiosity: what would you say Israel could have done under the circumstances that would be "fair" and "just"? How could the IDF secure the borders and safeguard their citizens considering the rocket attacks, raids, and so on?

Bomb and shell the fuck out of the Hizbollah controlled areas, which would be most of southern Lebanon and the Shi'ite areas of Beirut. Leave the rest of the country alone and/or limit strikes there to carefully planned precision guided strikes with accurate munitions and perhaps assassinations and such.

The whole fucking country is a mixing pot of Arab Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shi'ites, Armenians and others and has a long history of civil war, being occupied by foreign powers and has a weak government. The rest of the country very much wants Hizbolaah disarmed and eliminated as a semi-independent organization, but they just don't have the muscle to do it without the whole place erupting in more civil war. So it's fucking retarded of Israel to treat them as a more or less monolithic entity where the civilian infra is concerned, because it's counterproductive. If they'd shown more restraint and gone apeshit just on the Shi'ites and Hizbollah, there wouldn't be half this much shit being fliung around the issue.

Edi

Taking out carefully selected and checked targets at the border with Israel itself and in the surrounding areas that Hezbollah directly control is one thing. Blowing up army bases in the north of the country, taking out every entry and exit from the country basically, blowing up civillian infrastructure all over just...isnt.

[Keevan_Colton]

Clarification: I meant in terms of representation among the populace, not power, since they have 2/3 of the second largest coalition in parliament, obviously.

Here's a little clue, being in the group with the second largest number of seats in a parlimentary system makes you the opposition, not the government.

Unless, of course, you have seats in the government, like Hezbollah does, which would make you a part of a wider coalition.

No, the information posted shows it has seats in the smaller coalition, parlimentary seats yes...part of the government, no.

[Axis Kast]

The whole fucking country is a mixing pot of Arab Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shi'ites, Armenians and others and has a long history of civil war, being occupied by foreign powers and has a weak government. The rest of the country very much wants Hizbolaah disarmed and eliminated as a semi-independent organization, but they just don't have the muscle to do it without the whole place erupting in more civil war. So it's fucking retarded of Israel to treat them as a more or less monolithic entity where the civilian infra is concerned, because it's counterproductive. If they'd shown more restraint and gone apeshit just on the Shi'ites and Hizbollah, there wouldn't be half this much shit being fliung around the issue.

And you don't think that if Israel defined an exclusion zone in southern Lebanon in which it would "act to guarantee its own security," let's say, that the Lebanese govenrment would have a problem with that, or that Hezbollah wouldn't just pull up stakes and move into "Lebanon proper?"

Part of Israel's claim against the Lebanese government is just as Coyote described it: the fact that Beirut continues to assert authority over the border but refuses to so much as try to disarm Hezbollah. It also stems from the fact that, while Hezbollah may form an opposition, it is clearly a functional part of the Lebanese government. If that wasn't so, then they wouldn't remain active in politics.

[Lord Zentei]

No, the information posted shows it has seats in the smaller coalition, parlimentary seats yes...part of the government, no.

The links I provided were to show the size of the Hezbollah coalition in parliament. As for the minister posts, I thought this was common knowledge, but here:

Uneasy partnership

Because of Israel's presence in the country, Hezbollah was the only militia allowed to retain its arms following the general disarmament of non-government forces in the early 1990s.

It built up a powerful, cohesive and disciplined force which won the respect of Lebanese across the board for its sacrifice and courage in carrying out operations which eventually led the Israelis to conduct a chaotic overnight withdrawal from the south in 2000.

It also teamed up with the other major Shia political faction, Amal, to contest the parliamentary elections last year, winning enough seats to make it a significant formal political force and give it seats in the government as well as in parliament.

[Edi]

Clarification: I meant in terms of representation among the populace, not power, since they have 2/3 of the second largest coalition in parliament, obviously.

Here's a little clue, being in the group with the second largest number of seats in a parlimentary system makes you the opposition, not the government.

Unless, of course, you have seats in the government, like Hezbollah does, which would make you a part of a wider coalition.

It isn't unheard of that a party that is nominally part of the government goes its own way on some issue where the weakness of the whole makes it possible to get away with it.

Edi

[Axis Kast]

It isn't unheard of that a party that is nominally part of the government goes its own way on some issue where the weakness of the whole makes it possible to get away with it.

Which the government is then obliged to deal with. Except Lebanon hasn't even made a pretense of trying to oblige Hezbollah to play by "the rules," so to speak. Much of that is a matter of face. But it's fact nonetheless.

[Lord Zentei]

It isn't unheard of that a party that is nominally part of the government goes its own way on some issue where the weakness of the whole makes it possible to get away with it.

Edi

That is certainly true; though that does not change the fact that the Hezbollah coalition is not a minor power overall and that they do in fact hold seats in government.

If you'll take a gander at the earlier threads, I have in fact stated flat out that I think Israel's reaction is exessive - even though if you can do something doesn't mean that you should. But the particular argument that Hezbollah is not part of the Lebanese government is false. As far as a causus belli is concerned, it's not really as farfetched as people are making it out to be.

[Edi]

And you don't think that if Israel defined an exclusion zone in southern Lebanon in which it would "act to guarantee its own security," let's say, that the Lebanese govenrment would have a problem with that, or that Hezbollah wouldn't just pull up stakes and move into "Lebanon proper?"

It's mighty difficult pulling up stakes and moving when you're being carpet bombed to shit, Kast, and the central government in Beirut knows full well that it cannot act to "guarantee its own security" against Israel without being stomped flat. If they don't have enough muscle to dislodge Hizbollah from the south, what the fuck makes you think they could do anything but take it up the ass from Israel? You seem to have just as big reading comprehension problems as you've always had, but it's not something I need to conern myself with. Now run along and don't disturb the discussion the adults are having.

Part of Israel's claim against the Lebanese government is just as Coyote described it: the fact that Beirut continues to assert authority over the border but refuses to so much as try to disarm Hezbollah. It also stems from the fact that, while Hezbollah may form an opposition, it is clearly a functional part of the Lebanese government. If that wasn't so, then they wouldn't remain active in politics.

Seeing things in black and white as usual, when the whole damned point has already been addressed. In case you missed it, the rest of Lebanon wants Hizbollah disarmed, but lacks the muscle, so you don't have the argument you pretend you do.

Edi

[Edi]

It isn't unheard of that a party that is nominally part of the government goes its own way on some issue where the weakness of the whole makes it possible to get away with it.

Which the government is then obliged to deal with. Except Lebanon hasn't even made a pretense of trying to oblige Hezbollah to play by "the rules," so to speak. Much of that is a matter of face. But it's fact nonetheless.

Again, what muscle are they supposed to do that with? They don't have the means! How many fucking times does the question have to be asked before it sinks into your thick skull?

Edi

[MKSheppard]

19:58 IDF believes Hezbollah misfired missile with 200 km range (Haaretz)

[Axis Kast]

It's mighty difficult pulling up stakes and moving when you're being carpet bombed to shit, Kast, and the central government in Beirut knows full well that it cannot act to "guarantee its own security" against Israel without being stomped flat. If they don't have enough muscle to dislodge Hizbollah from the south, what the fuck makes you think they could do anything but take it up the ass from Israel? You seem to have just as big reading comprehension problems as you've always had, but it's not something I need to conern myself with. Now run along and don't disturb the discussion the adults are having.

Lebanon has not made even a pretense of doing anything about Hezbollah. Nobody in Beirut actually plays the, “We’re too weak to secure our own borders” card. Of course, that gives carte blanche for Israel to act against Hezbollah, so it’s unsurprising that the Lebanese government has remained inactive. Right now, the Israeli Defense Force is apparently trying to batter Hezbollah so badly and shake the Lebanese government so violently that, when the smoke clears, the Lebanese Army will be ready to replace the decimated terrorists in the south.

Seeing things in black and white as usual, when the whole damned point has already been addressed. In case you missed it, the rest of Lebanon wants Hizbollah disarmed, but lacks the muscle, so you don't have the argument you pretend you do.

And Israel’s strategy is answering that problem. Of course, it’s also punishing Beirut for not even making a sham of trying to control Hezbollah.

[Keevan_Colton]

...that would be the lebanese army whose facilities they've been attacking that gets to ride in and outs Hezbollah, right?

[Edi]

Lebanon has not made even a pretense of doing anything about Hezbollah. Nobody in Beirut actually plays the, “We’re too weak to secure our own borders” card. Of course, that gives carte blanche for Israel to act against Hezbollah, so it’s unsurprising that the Lebanese government has remained inactive. Right now, the Israeli Defense Force is apparently trying to batter Hezbollah so badly and shake the Lebanese government so violently that, when the smoke clears, the Lebanese Army will be ready to replace the decimated terrorists in the south.

The same army whose facilities and infra and other requirements of effective operation they've been blowing to smithereens? Are you fucking retarded? The Lebanese government remained inactive because there was fuckall they could do without starting adestructive civil war. If Israel had stuck to just blowing the shit out of Hizbollah and left the rest of Lebanon alone, then the government in Beirut would have had the opportunity to dismantle a weakened Hizbollah without things collapsing into civil war, but right now that option isn't there because Israel decided to wreckall of Lebanon instead of just the Shi'ites. But practicalities and realities like that never got in the way of your masturbatory wanking to delusional ideology.

Seeing things in black and white as usual, when the whole damned point has already been addressed. In case you missed it, the rest of Lebanon wants Hizbollah disarmed, but lacks the muscle, so you don't have the argument you pretend you do.

And Israel’s strategy is answering that problem. Of course, it’s also punishing Beirut for not even making a sham of trying to control Hezbollah.

What sham? They did not have the fucking muscle in the first place. But I suppose firebombing your house in retaliation for a crime your six-foot five, 250 pound armed to the teeth muscle monster of a neighbor committed is also quite acceptable to you since you did nothing to try and actively curb his criminality despite being on the same housing committee?

Edi