Atlantis Scaling and Zero Point Module Output, (217 Spoiler)

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Atlantis Scaling and Zero Point Module Output, (217 Spoiler)

Post by NecronLord »

Warning. This thread contains a single spoiler for Stargate Atlantis, Episode 17

It's my intent to calculate how much energy a Zero Point Module outputs (not the explosions involved) from the following information.
  1. The city of Atlantis is less dense than water. It even floats when all naquadah generators are deactivated.
  2. The city is incapable of flight with one, and probably with two, Zero Point Modules. This is shown in SGAS2E17, where McKay asserts that the city would still

    be incapable of flight with two functioning Zero Point Modules.
    "We might even be able to light up the engines, and get the city to fly"
    "Really?"
    "No, but we still need it [a second ZPM]"
Because it is less dense than water, it is possible to estimate an upper limit for the city's mass from calculating or estimating (Do I look like I'm mad enough to try for an exact number? It's all pointy, and tower-y) its volume.

Atlantis Scaling

Image 1

This image shows the outside of the main tower. Highlighted is the balcony outside the control areas of Atlantis. The flat part of that is somewhat larger than the stargate. This can be seen in the interior set plans of the gateroom area presented on the gallery of scifi.com. This makes the red line approximately five meters across. The blue line appears to be equal to the red line.

Image 2

Here we see the tower from above. That section of it is 39.9 pixels (Sqr. Root of 1597pixels² [34²*21²]) across. The tower itself is, at its widest point, around 200 pixels across. This is 5 times 5 meters, or 25 meters across.

Now, the ratio of the width of the central tower to its height is 1:10.6 (15:160 pixels on an image I used as a basis) and the ratio of the width of the tower's wide point to the base of the city is approximately 1:36.3 (15:545) Therefore, the approximate height of Atlantis, aerials excluded, from sea level is 265 meters. The approximate diameter of the base is 908.3 meters. This is of course, quite small for a city, but one can only assume that the Ancient civilization's population was relatively low - such an emphasis on high quality, low volume seems to have doomed them to fail in their war against the Wraith, after all.

Now, SGAS2E13 shows a side-on schematic of the city, with a strange, giant spike structure emerging from its underside - possibly an anchor, as this does not appear to be visible in the opening minutes of Rising, when the city was on land.We'll ignore this though, as we can handily fit it into the space between the snowflake-piers.

Volume and Mass

1.7171e+8 m³

Density of Seawater Saay... 1030 Kg/m³ We'll assume that Atlantia's (hey, have to call it something) seawater is the same as Earth's. It's certainly unlikely to be much different, water is presumably the main constituent.

1.7171e+8*1030= 176,861,300,000 Kg. However, be aware that this is likely an order of magnitude or so beyond the actual volume of the city, as you can tell to look at it that it's not a cylinder. However, we want to make a generous upper limit...

Additionally, in the opening scene of Rising, when the main engines of the city engage, with a rather large flash, the velocity seems to change in one second from around 265 meters (one city-height) per second, to something around a kilometer five kilometers per second (four city-heights {no spike here, remember, so 265 meters}} This is a velocity change of approx 800 m/s/s. 56,595,616,000,000,000 Watts or 13.53 Mt per second. We know that 2 Zero Point Modules are incapable of achieving this energy output, however, this may be close to the output of two zero point modules, so I would conclude that the upper limit of sustained energy output of a ZPM is somwhat below, but close to 6.75 Mt/s. Going by the 8 Mt/s calc for the shields of Atlantis previously, I would say that the Atlantis shield is capable of drawing the energy of multiple ZPMs simultaneously. So, comments? Debunkings?
Last edited by NecronLord on 2006-01-27 04:39am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Braedley »

First, the link to the second pic points to the first pic.

Also, the only volume that is important on the city side is the volume below the waterline. This is because the mass of the city is the same as the mass of the water that it displaces. Only saying this because it isn't apparent to me that you took this into consideration (you did take it into consideration, right?) Also, we don't know what precentage of the power supplied would be directed towards the engines during hyperspace flights. Remeber, there's a structual integrity field that also must be on during flight. Other than that, just looking at it, it seems good to me.
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Post by Xon »

I would asume they require the shields to be up before they can lightup the engines for space travel. Infact this is what we see in the Rising, the shield is online and can intelligently create openings so things like Jumpers can dock without lowering the shield.

Also during the time they ship was lifting in the start of the Rising the hyperdrive would have had to be powering up.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

I would point out that in rising while the shield was collapsing, it still was at least partialy powered until it broke through to the surface as the expedition wasn't drowned or anything.
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Post by NecronLord »

Braedley wrote:First, the link to the second pic points to the first pic
Ack. I'll edit
Also, the only volume that is important on the city side is the volume below the waterline.
I see what you're saying, but there are two reasons I chose to go with a super-generous calculation of its displacement. Firstly, I wanted an upper limit, rather than accurate assessment, for its displacement (hence why I just assumed it was a gigantic cylinder, of very generous proportions.
This is because the mass of the city is the same as the mass of the water that it displaces. Only saying this because it isn't apparent to me that you took this into consideration (you did take it into consideration, right?)
After a fashion. That fashion being 'we only see the underside once, briefly, partially, in the dark, when it's studded with light sources. Can I be bothered trying [and doubtless failing many times] to work out its displacement as a ship? Nooo!' ;)
Also, we don't know what precentage of the power supplied would be directed towards the engines during hyperspace flights.
Indeed not. There seems to be little way of calcuating the actual energy of a hyperspace jump. It is by all indications, massive. Probably the city's entire output.
Remeber, there's a structual integrity field that also must be on during flight. Other than that, just looking at it, it seems good to me.
Well, I wouldn't say that the strucural integrity field was doing much per se. The shield was up in this scene, providing a bubble to protect the city from any major stresses (I am of course, a complete layman in mechanical engineering, so this is just my uneducated guess) from air resistance. Also, most of the city's structure appears to be below the waterline, with each pier essentially sitting on a large trapezoid shaped piece of metal, the larger ones containing an engine, and presumably, the intergalactic drives. I would think that this section of the city is very solidly built...
ggs wrote:I would asume they require the shields to be up before they can lightup the engines for space travel. Infact this is what we see in the Rising, the shield is online and can intelligently create openings so things like Jumpers can dock without lowering the shield.
It would seem necessery, but Atlantis, or at least, the central tower is water-tight. As long as one doesn't stand outside when it leaves the atmosphere, it may not be that much of a problem. The shield was up in Rising of course, but that is, I think, more to do with air-resistance than protection from the void of space.
Also during the time they ship was lifting in the start of the Rising the hyperdrive would have had to be powering up.
Why? The shield seems capable of keeping air inside it. They cold simply have reached escape velocity, ten burns like that one should do nicely, stopped accellerating at any time, then left the shield up while charging the drive.
Chris OFarrell wrote:I would point out that in rising while the shield was collapsing, it still was at least partialy powered until it broke through to the surface as the expedition wasn't drowned or anything.
Actually, everything up to the surface of the outside window was underwater. I would guess that the main tower was effectively a diving bell, and that other parts of the city were flooded. Clearly those windows are tough stuff.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

NecronLord wrote: Actually, everything up to the surface of the outside window was underwater. I would guess that the main tower was effectively a diving bell, and that other parts of the city were flooded. Clearly those windows are tough stuff.
I'm not sure. It looked very much like the shield was in face set for a hull hugging configeration when it was underwater. When you are looking out the window the water of course looks like it is right there, not being held hundreds of meters away. Also when the shield collapses with Groden and Weir looking on, you can see the decompression happening from the buildings in the city....

It's an interesting choice. I mean a big dome shield would be far more energy intensive, but theoreticaly you could brace it against the ocean floor easier. Where as a skin tight forcefield wouldn't have that advantage, but also only cover that which needed to be covered...
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Post by NecronLord »

Well, I thought the high visibility in the scene where they look out of the window in Atlantis indicated that it was still a bubble shield. However, that doesn't really gel with the idea of it being able to collapse and shrink by sections.

As for bracing it, well, I'd assume it only needs to be braced to the generators, which means that the real problem would be the greater pressure from the increased surface area. But then again, given Atlantis' unusal shape, perhaps hull-hugging reduces the overall surface area, compared to a dome.
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Post by Braedley »

Well we know that the shield is a bubble at full strength (The Storm, The Seige Pt 3), but the question is what happens when the shield starts to fail. It looks like it's hull hugging in Rising, which is why they couldn't go outside. When the shield failed in the non critical areas, that section immediately decompressed. There are two possible explanations for this: either the section wasn't water-tight to begin with, or the pressure of the water caused cracks to form, or shatter windows.
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Post by General Zod »

Braedley wrote:Well we know that the shield is a bubble at full strength (The Storm, The Seige Pt 3), but the question is what happens when the shield starts to fail. It looks like it's hull hugging in Rising, which is why they couldn't go outside. When the shield failed in the non critical areas, that section immediately decompressed. There are two possible explanations for this: either the section wasn't water-tight to begin with, or the pressure of the water caused cracks to form, or shatter windows.
The shields on the Orion in the latest Atlantis episode also appeared to be hull hugging. And afaik McKay had only restored enough power for them to last a few seconds, so it seems to fit.
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Post by Xon »

NecronLord wrote:As for bracing it, well, I'd assume it only needs to be braced to the generators, which means that the real problem would be the greater pressure from the increased surface area. But then again, given Atlantis' unusal shape, perhaps hull-hugging reduces the overall surface area, compared to a dome.
The shield generator's bracing could be argumented to all hell & back with conservation of momentum raping inertia dampeners too.
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Post by Plushie »

Problem with your calcs:

We know the SG-verse has "mass-lightening" (I'm pretty sure Earth ships employ this) whats-its, so the chances that the Ancients (the race this technology is probably derived from) have it on something like Atlantis is pretty high.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I think "mass lightning" would be disregarded for the purposes of making an "upper limit" calc, and he already specified he was going for that. The use of a bubble shield would also fit under the "upper limit" thing.
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Post by Braedley »

Where is it specifically stated that Earth has mass-lightening tech? Remember, anti-gravity wave generators do not equate to mass lightening. They just provide another force, which happen to be directed in the opposite direction of the ambiant gravity.
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Post by Xon »

Braedley wrote:Where is it specifically stated that Earth has mass-lightening tech? Remember, anti-gravity wave generators do not equate to mass lightening. They just provide another force, which happen to be directed in the opposite direction of the ambiant gravity.
In Stargate, inertia dampeners function as pseudo-mass-lightening
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