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 Post subject: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:03am
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Hi, I was just wondering, I was in a debate with Trekkies on another board, and when I mentioned the ICS, they immediately raised a bunch of objections, mainly:

1. It was written by Curtis Saxton, who is in league with Wong, and Wong helped write it, so therefore it isn't canon (I don't know how that's supposed to work)
2. It contradicts all of the movies because we've never seen a 200 GT explosion in them (despite the fact that they never defined what they thought a 200 GT explosion in space would look like).
3. It is pure wank and there is nothing else in any canon at all suggesting gigaton yields for turbolasers. When I told them about the Dodonna quote and scaling down from the Death Star, they asked me "How do you figure out the Death Star's firepower?" I showed them the calcs, they said "Sorry, calcs don't count here, only feats, the feat is that it destroyed a planet, nothing more. Unless it said in canon that it was more powerful than minimum planet - busting power, it's not". Apparently their board rules support this.
4. The most ridiculous of all: Turbolasers can't be 200 GTs because that is enough to destroy a planet, so they wouldn't have needed a Death Star.

The argument went like this:

Me: What? That's ridiculous.
Them: It's true
Me: (provides evidence of earthquakes in the multi - gigaton range)
Them: Earthquakes distribute their energy differently.
Me: Yeah, right in the earth. If 200 GTs was enough to destroy the Earth, most major earthquakes would really mess things up.
Them: Wrong, the shockwaves reverberate past the mantle all around the earth inside and disperse.
Me: What? Where did you hear that?
Them: (refuses to provide an answer)

Later I gave evidence that the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was over 100 Teratons. They said since it was 10 kilometers in diameter the energy was spread out and wouldn't destroy the earth, but a concentrated 200 GT beam would.

I then did calculations of the Earth's escape velocity and the energy required to exceed the gravitational binding energy, they stated that you didn't need to exceed the GBE to destroy a planet, just fracture it, I said yes, but it would require so many orders of magnitude greater power to do that than 200 GTs, I pointed out that Alderaan's GBE had been exceeded when it exploded.

They asked how do I know it didn't coalesce later, I pointed out that in the EU it remained an asteroid belt for years, they then said that means the GBE wasn't exceeded because the fragments didn't go flying off forever but formed into a belt. I explained that it was the sun's gravity, not the fragments' own gravity, that did that, but they still refused to understand.

Please help me come up with a way to explain this to them so they'll understand it and be convinced, I've tried everything.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:17am
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If they are not going to provide proof to their claims, there is nothing to convince them of what they see.

They are letting you do all the work and simply giving lipservice to what they want is right.

1. It is their onus to prove 200GT is enough to destroy a planet. Not just to pay lip service in poor refutation.

2. Claims of feats are pointless. I can move a car under certain circumstances, does that even imply I am strong as tow truck? If I do not provide the surrounding evidence of how I accomplished this, I can give anything to skew the results to my favor. Since they are doing this method of feats counting more then objective observation, it implies a heavy degree of sophist behavior.

3. Ad hominems against Dr. Saxton. They have to first provide the burden of proof that Dr. Saxton pulled these calculations out of his ass, otherwise, they are distinctly talking out of their own.

Simply put they do not want to understand, and will not concede. They are just simply throwing obstacles out for you to jump through rather then debate any of the points you brought up.



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:33am
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OmegaGuy wrote:
1. It was written by Curtis Saxton, who is in league with Wong, and Wong helped write it, so therefore it isn't canon (I don't know how that's supposed to work)


Unproven bullshit ad hominem against Dr. Saxton. What, they think he violated his non-disclosure agreement to stick it to the Trekkies :roll:

Everything else you said has been more or less fine. They're just fucking idiots. It takes a special kind of moron to think that a teraton range impact from a massive asteroid won't destroy a planet under their poor retarded reasoning, but a concentrated turbolaser bolt in the gigaton range would :Roll:

They're obviously poorly educated immature little fucks, and the very fact they think someone with a doctorate in astrophysics doesn't know what it takes to blow a planet up is all you need to know that you're wasting your time. You're never going to convince morons. Just take solace in the fact that their brand of idiocy will never, ever, influence the mainstream vs debate.



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 07:30am
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Vympel wrote:
Everything else you said has been more or less fine. They're just fucking idiots. It takes a special kind of moron to think that a teraton range impact from a massive asteroid won't destroy a planet under their poor retarded reasoning, but a concentrated turbolaser bolt in the gigaton range would :Roll:
where does this come from?



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 07:40am
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Lord Revan wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Everything else you said has been more or less fine. They're just fucking idiots. It takes a special kind of moron to think that a teraton range impact from a massive asteroid won't destroy a planet under their poor retarded reasoning, but a concentrated turbolaser bolt in the gigaton range would :Roll:
where does this come from?

CBR, they said that 200gt trbolasers blast's were impossible since it would split a planet in half :roll: , and said that the dinosaur killing asteroid was only in the 6-8 gigatons range :x



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 07:54am
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I wonder if they say that those people who said the indonesia tsunami had the energy of 100 Gt are in league with wong against the innocent trekkie :lol:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 07:57am
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Lord Revan wrote:
I wonder if they say that those people who said the indonesia tsunami had the energy of 100 Gt are in league with wong against the innocent trekkie :lol:

Wasn't it more like 200-500 gt, not including the earthquakes?
Also stop mentioning Wong's sight, every argument, calculation and screenshot have been tampered with and are a product of
Warsie lies.
Check out this cool sight with treks answer to Wong, and ignore the claims if the site owners metal plated insanity :roll: .
[/End moron voice]



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 08:12am
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DEATH wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
I wonder if they say that those people who said the indonesia tsunami had the energy of 100 Gt are in league with wong against the innocent trekkie :lol:

Wasn't it more like 200-500 gt, not including the earthquakes?
Also stop mentioning Wong's sight, every argument, calculation and screenshot have been tampered with and are a product of
Warsie lies.
Check out this cool sight with treks answer to Wong, and ignore the claims if the site owners metal plated insanity :roll: .
[/End moron voice]
it's kind of funny that trekkies can consider DITL.org as objective and fair and all evidence says otherwise as fabrication, they're like creatonists in that way. There's isn't a way to prove them wrong as they can't never be wrong no matter what the evidence say. Infact their whole meaning for life depends on them being right.

and 100 Gt is the smallest I've heard so I used it.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 01:22pm
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I forgot how retarded some of the other boards out there are. And then I remember why I rarely leave SDN and SB. :D

As others have stated, burden of proof is on them to back up their claims, to which they have failed miserably. Demand proof that 200 GTs is enough to crack a planet in half. Just because it's a laser doesn't somehow magically change the physics of the event.

And the ad hominem against Saxton and Wong has nothing to do with the canonicity of the ICS. Burden of proof is also on them to show that written works are excluded from canon as we have statements showing otherwise (such as Leland Chee's, Sansweet, Cerasi, etc.)

And what is this, "Unless it said in canon that it was more powerful than minimum planet - busting power, it's not"? Didn't they read the opening to ANH where it explicitly states that the DS has enough firepower to destroy a planet, further corroborated when the superlaser blew up Alderaan with GBE exceeding force?

However, as others pointed out, you're probably wasting your time in the long run on these ignorant fucks. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 01:57pm
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I'll try asking them to back up their claim, but I've been banned from that board for 2 weeks for defending the underdog in a few threads that were made to be curbstomps.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-07 02:36pm
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Trektards judge a piece of evidence by its conclusion, rather than judging a conclusion by its evidence.

As pointed out previously, they're exactly like creationists that way. Where a normal person asks if a conclusion is reasonable, they ask if the evidence is reasonable, and they dismiss evidence that they deem unreasonable. Small wonder the conclusion never changes; it's impossible for it to change, given their method.



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:10pm
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OmegaGuy wrote:
1. It was written by Curtis Saxton, who is in league with Wong, and Wong helped write it, so therefore it isn't canon (I don't know how that's supposed to work)


It's wonderful, ain't it? If Mike was the Producer for RotS, they'd say it was non-canon. :P



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:13pm
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NecronLord wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:
1. It was written by Curtis Saxton, who is in league with Wong, and Wong helped write it, so therefore it isn't canon (I don't know how that's supposed to work)


It's wonderful, ain't it? If Mike was the Producer for RotS, they'd say it was non-canon. :P
they would probably say that if it was proven that Mike had any interaction with either Rick McCallum or George Lucas (or both).



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:34pm
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DEATH wrote:
and said that the dinosaur killing asteroid was only in the 6-8 gigatons range :x
Just out of curiousity.. Is this true? Has anyone measured the output of the astroid that struck the Yucatan?



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-07 04:58pm
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OmegaGuy wrote:
1. It was written by Curtis Saxton, who is in league with Wong, and Wong helped write it, so therefore it isn't canon (I don't know how that's supposed to work)

Irrelevant. Being aproved by Lucasfilm is what makes something canon. Not who wrote the thing. If this point had any validity, we could easily dismiss all of KJA's "works" or any other EU author we don't like.

Quote:
2. It contradicts all of the movies because we've never seen a 200 GT explosion in them (despite the fact that they never defined what they thought a 200 GT explosion in space would look like).

The Alderaan explosion makes 200GT look like a firecracker.

Quote:
3. It is pure wank and there is nothing else in any canon at all suggesting gigaton yields for turbolasers. When I told them about the Dodonna quote and scaling down from the Death Star, they asked me "How do you figure out the Death Star's firepower?" I showed them the calcs, they said "Sorry, calcs don't count here, only feats, the feat is that it destroyed a planet, nothing more. Unless it said in canon that it was more powerful than minimum planet - busting power, it's not". Apparently their board rules support this.

Calculations are based on MEASUREMENT of the feat. The alternative is subjective bullshit. "Minimum planet-busting power" would require several minutes for Alderaan to expand.

Quote:
4. The most ridiculous of all: Turbolasers can't be 200 GTs because that is enough to destroy a planet, so they wouldn't have needed a Death Star.

Absolute proof that you are dealing with a bunch of ignoramuses who don't know jack about physics. The dino-killer asteroid was a few orders of magnitude more than 200GT. Guess what. The Earth is still in one piece.

Quote:
Later I gave evidence that the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was over 100 Teratons. They said since it was 10 kilometers in diameter the energy was spread out and wouldn't destroy the earth, but a concentrated 200 GT beam would.
The DS beam was spread over more than 10 km by the time it hits Alderaan. They are just making shit up out of thin air.

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Please help me come up with a way to explain this to them so they'll understand it and be convinced, I've tried everything.

These idiots won't listen to anything you have to say. They've already proven that.



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-08 07:09am
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Crossroads Inc. wrote:
DEATH wrote:
and said that the dinosaur killing asteroid was only in the 6-8 gigatons range :x
Just out of curiousity.. Is this true? Has anyone measured the output of the astroid that struck the Yucatan?

Estimates have it at least at 100 (possibly 150) TERA tons (Kilo-mega-giga-terra).
The creation of the moon was casued by something possibly near the size of Mar's colliding with earth, and these fools though that a six-teenth of the water impact of the asian Tsunami would destroy the earth :roll: .



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 Post subject: Re: Debate on another board PostPosted: 2005-12-08 04:22pm
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Crossroads Inc. wrote:
DEATH wrote:
and said that the dinosaur killing asteroid was only in the 6-8 gigatons range :x
Just out of curiousity.. Is this true? Has anyone measured the output of the astroid that struck the Yucatan?

You can't measure it, but you can compute it from various physics models. You should also keep in mind that the Indonesian earthquake of last year was roughly 30 gigatons. It's pretty fucking absurd to think that a puny 6 gigaton blast would cause the K-T mass-extinction.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-08 05:17pm
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Energy, volatile production, and climatic effects of the Chicxulub Cretaceous/Tertiary impact

Quote:
The crater size, meteoritic content of the K/T boundary clay, and impact models indicate that the Chicxulub crater was formed by a short period comet or an asteroid impact that released 0.7-3.4×10^31 ergs of energy.


7e30 ergs is 160 teratons. 3.4e31 ergs is 800 teratons.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-08 05:29pm
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XaLEv wrote:
Energy, volatile production, and climatic effects of the Chicxulub Cretaceous/Tertiary impact

Quote:
The crater size, meteoritic content of the K/T boundary clay, and impact models indicate that the Chicxulub crater was formed by a short period comet or an asteroid impact that released 0.7-3.4×10^31 ergs of energy.


7e30 ergs is 160 teratons. 3.4e31 ergs is 800 teratons.

I stand corrected :oops: , I tried a google search or two (5 minutes ago) and actually ended up with lower figures :oops: .
Out of curiosity where do the calc's for the Asian Tsunami come from? (I'd like to play around with it, I need to check a 10.5 richter scale earthquake in comparison to that released by a 1 teraton explosion by a human sized object on the north pole).



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-21 04:39pm
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OmegaGuy wrote:
I'll try asking them to back up their claim, but I've been banned from that board for 2 weeks for defending the underdog in a few threads that were made to be curbstomps.


This is why you should just give up and start trolling them. They're obviously too stupid to actually debate and too set in their own stupdity, so why give them what they want? If you don't have any personal connection or fondness for that forum, I suggest shock images. You'd get perma-banned probably, but it'd be worth it for entertainment value.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-21 04:57pm
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-21 05:56pm
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'Accidentally' let it slip out the name of this board you're defending logic at, Omega. I'm sure someone will be willing to help.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-21 08:45pm
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Well I would but there hasn't been a debate on the subject for a long time.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-12-22 03:25am
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Jadeite...13 days....nothing nada, zip, zero....topic is dead and should stay as such.

Lock.



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