Gandalf: The Man Behind the Staff

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Gandalf: The Man Behind the Staff

Post by Balrog »

Something I've been meaning to do for awhile, cataloging the various powers of everyone's favorite Grey Wizard. I've added some analysis to each of the passages, although many of them are self-explanitory, and have gone into greater detail on a few. At the moment I only have Gandalf the Grey complete, but feel free to add your own input and use this as a source to debate for (or against) Gandalf. :)

Gandalf the Grey
Roast Mutton, The Hobbit wrote:‘“Excellent!” said Gandalf, as he stepped from behind a tree, and helped Bilbo to climb down out of a thorn-bush. Then Bilbo understood. It was the wizard’s voice that had kept the trolls bickering and quarrelling, until the light came and made an end of them.’
Gandalf can mimic the same voices of several Trolls; it’s likely he can do this for other creatures as well.
Roat Mutton, The Hobbit wrote:After that they slept, for their night had been disturbed; and they did nothing more till the afternoon. Then they brought up their ponies, and carried away the pots of gold, and buried them very secretly not far from the track by the river, putting a great many spells over them, just in case they ever had the chance to come back and recover them.’
It seems, from the way I read the passage, that not only did Gandalf cast spells over the gold, but so did the Dwarves. But that just could be me :D
Over Hill and Under Hill, The Hobbit wrote:‘But not Gandalf. Bilbo’s yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.’
The Grey Pilgrim, able to attack in a moment’s notice and without prep time. :)
Over Hill and Under Hill wrote:‘Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins.

The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls, and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description. Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive would not have compared with it. The sparks were burning holes in the goblins, and the smoke that now fell from the roof made the air too thick for even their eyes to see through. Soon they were falling over one another and rolling in heaps on the floor, biting and kicking and fighting as if they had all gone mad.’
Self-explanatory, although one wonders if Gandalf is naturally proficient with influence the elements of fire or if the Elven Ring of Fire gives him a an advantage.
Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire, The Hobbit wrote:‘He gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke. A specially large one hit the chief wolf on the nose, and he leaped in the air ten feet, and then rushed round and round the circle biting and snapping even at the other wolves in his anger and fright.

The dwarves and Bilbo shouted and cheered. The rage of the wolves was terrible to see, and the commotion they made filled all the forest. Wolves are afraid of fire at all times, but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames.
Incendiary grenades at a moment’s notice; interesting though that the pinecones seem to a have a napalm-like effect, similar to the cave incident earlier.
Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire, The Hobbit wrote:‘Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt.’
Two things in this passage; one, for all his powers Gandalf is still vulnerable to simple melee attacks (although, being a Maia, if this would only destroy his mortal shell or kill him “fully” is up for debate) and two, Gandalf is capable of performing a last-ditch “kamikaze” attack with the same effect of a “thunderbolt.”

* * *
A Long-Expected Party wrote:‘The fireworks were by Gandalf: they were not only brought by him, but designed and made by him; and the special effects, set pieces, and flights of rockets were let off by him….There were rockets like a flight of scintillating birds singing with sweet voices. There were green trees with trunks of dark smoke: their leaves opened like a whole spring unfolding in a moment, and their shining branches dropped glowing flowers down upon the astonished hobbits, disappearing with a sweet scent just before they touched their upturned faces. There were fountains of butterflies that flew glittering into the trees; there were pillars of coloured fires that rose and turned into eagles, or sailing ships, or a phalanx of flying swans; there was a red thunderstorm and a shower of yellow rain; there was a forest of silver spears that sprang suddenly into the air with a yell like an embattled army, and came down again into the Water with a hiss like a hundred hot snakes. And there was one last surprise, in honour of Bilbo, and it startled the hobbits exceedingly, as Gandalf intended. The lights went out. A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames. Out flew a red-golden dragon – not life-size, but terribly life-like: fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down; there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the heads of the crowd. They ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion.’
A demonstration that Gandalf’s fireworks are not merely “firecrackers and rockets,” capable of feats beyond what fireworks are capable of even today.
A Shadow of the Past wrote:‘Gandalf laughed grimly. “You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not ‘make’ you – except by force, which would break your mind.”’
The first demonstration of Gandalf’s mental powers; the only way to force Frodo to give up the Ring would end up ‘breaking’ his mind. Presumably Gandalf has the ability to ‘force’ other beings as well and causing lasting mental damage to them as well.
Many Meetings wrote:‘“You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,” said Gandalf gently, “and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory.”’
Second instance of Gandalf’s mental powers; he is able to read Frodo’s mind. Whether this was only possible because Frodo was asleep, or couldn’t actively resist the attempt, is unknown.
The Council of Elrond wrote:‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.’
One of the many vague descriptions of Gandalf’s powers :) Gandalf’s duel with all nine Nazgul, including the Witch-King, could be clearly seen by the Hobbits and Strider several day’s travel from Weathertop. It is an explination of earlier events witnessed by Frodo & co. :
A Knife in the Dark wrote:'As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.

"What is the light?" he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.

"I do not know," Strider answered. "It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps from hill-tops."'
A Knife in the Dark wrote:'On the top [of Weathertop] they found, as Strider had said, a wide ring of ancient stonework, now crumbling or covered with age-long grass. But in the centre a cairn of broken stones had been piled. They were blacked as if with fire. About them the turf was burned to the roots and all within the ring the grass was scorched and shrivelled, as if flames had swept the hill-top; but there was no sign of any living thing.'
They suggest Gandalf has an impressive command of fire, to be visible miles away and scorch the surrounding terrain.
Flight to the Ford/Many Meetings wrote:'t that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and won along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the waters white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. '

...

“Who made the flood?” asked Frodo.

“Elrond commanded it,” answered Gandalf. “The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders.”'
Much is made of Gandalf's ability to control fire, but here he does the same to water, and at some distance too, considering he was no where near the Ford during the incident and most likely back in Rivendell, some miles away.
The Ring Goes South wrote:‘At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, naur an edraith ammen! He thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.

“If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,” he said. “I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.”’
Gandalf still has command over the elements of fire as he did in The Hobbit, although in this case he was forced to speak a Word of Command. Perhaps it’s easier to control the actual fire itself then to spawn a new one, especially in such an adverse environment. Also a reason is given why Gandalf’s been trying to keep low-profile on this mission.
A Journey in the Dark wrote:‘In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.

“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!” he cried.

There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.’
Gandalf can do more then set a log on fire; although he was forced to speak more Words of Command then he had before. The heat of the fire seems remarkable, as it was able to set Legolas’ arrow on fire in mid-flight.
A Journey in the Dark wrote:‘He laid his hand on the pony’s head, and spoke in a low voice. “Go with words of guard and guiding on you,” he said. “You are a wise beast, and have learned much in Rivendell. Make your ways to places where you can find grass, and so come in time to Elrond’s house, or wherever you wish to go.”’
Gandalf the Horse-Whisperer :D ‘Words of guard and guiding’ seem to be more then just words of advice, although the possible effects of this ‘spell’ is unknown.
A Journey in the Dark wrote:‘“I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind…”’
Gandalf has quite an array of spells at his command; plus proof that mystical angels and First Age Elves are not the only ones able to cast ‘magic’. Even Orcs seem to have a catalog of possible powers according to Gandalf.
A Journey in the Dark wrote:‘Though he had been healed in Rivendell of the knife-stroke, that grim wound had not been without effect. His senses were sharper and more aware of things that could not be seen. One sign of the change that he soon noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf.’
Gandalf apparently has excellent 'night-vision'.
The Bridge of Khazad-dûm wrote:‘With a quick movement Gandalf stepped before the narrow opening of the door and thrust forward his staff. There was a dazzling flash that lit the chamber and passage outside. For an instant the wizard looked out. Arrows whined and whistled down the corridor as he sprang back.’
Just one of many instances of Gandalf’s portable flashlight effect :)
The Bridge of Khazad-dûm wrote:‘‘Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.

“Well, well! That’s over!” said the wizard struggling to his feet. “I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don’t stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for awhile: I am rather shaken...”

“I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength…

Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

What it was I could not guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces…All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.”’
An interesting passage that describes the initial duel between Gandalf and the Balrog. One is that the effects of some spells can be overcome by brute strength, and that some spells require time to do ‘properly’. Second is that it is possible to counter at least certain spells, although the method on how apparently requires someone proficient in magic as well. Third is that a Word of Command is a powerful ability, able to break stone doors and collapse whole rooms from its effects. Most interesting of all is the fact that the Balrog’s counter-spell nearly “broke” Gandalf. Whether this is the same as Gandalf ‘breaking’ Frodo’s mind earlier in the text is unknown, although it would have surely been the downfall of the Grey Pilgrim.
The Bridge of Khazad-dûm wrote:‘‘The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

“You cannot pass,” he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.”

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.

“You cannot pass!” he said.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed…

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into the emptiness

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. “Fly, you fools!” he cried, and was gone.’
.’
The infamous “You shall not pass!” scene. Again we see a white light as Gandalf's "magic" takes effect and disintergrates the Balrog's flamming sword. What’s interesting is that Gandalf's final spell broke his staff, an object seem often as a conduit or symbol of power among the Ishtari, when before he'd broken stone without destroying it. It’s loss would not prevent Gandalf from doing battle and defeating the Balrog later on however:
The White Rider wrote:‘“Name him not!” said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. “Long time I fell,” he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with great difficulty. “Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.”

“Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,” said Gimli.

“Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,” said Gandalf. “Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.”

“We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up we went now, until we came to the Endless Stair.”

“Long has that been lost,” said Gimli. “Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.”

“It was made, and it had not been destroyed,” said Gandalf. “From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.”

“There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. There sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.”

Suddenly Gandalf laughed. “But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone”’
Gandalf’s long running battle with the Balrog as described to the Three Hunters. While the passage is vague, it gives us clues as to the titanic struggle between these two higher beings. First is that both survived the drop through the seemingly endless abyss below the Bridge, and that drenching a Balrog in water does not kill it but turns it 'slimy'.

Gandalf recounts that they fell for a 'long' time, and the lake below could not be seen by the Company as they crossed the bridge. It's highly likely then that they achieved terminal velocity. Assuming Gandalf's mass is an average 80kg, and his velocity was 55m/s (easily achieved after only six seconds of falling), the momentum behind the impact would have been 4,400 kg*m/s.

Mind you, the impact did not kill him. In fact, they continued to fight a running battle for ten days:
Appendix B wrote:January 15: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, and fall of Gandalf.
January 23: Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirakzigil
January 25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
It seems that both fought each other with their natural elements, the Balrog attacking with fire while Gandalf used lighting. What is known for sure is that their fighting was such fierce that the snow on the mountain top vaporized, resulting in a cloud of steam and vapor surrounding them, and turned Durin's Tower into a pile of dust, breaking and burning stone in the process. And of course when the Balrog was defeated he “broke the mountain-side”. A vague but impressive battle, to say the least.
Last edited by Balrog on 2008-07-16 05:19pm, edited 5 times in total.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Post by Elheru Aran »

As for your Trolls example; I'd ascribe that to ventroquilism, which is hardly anything new :P

Small question: I wasn't aware he carried Cirdan's Ring before the events of LOTR?

And an observation: the Elves, who are apparently the highest form of life on Middle-Earth, just under the Maiar, are vulnerable to melee attacks as well. One imagines that Tolkien, having had Maiar become incarnate in physical bodies to become Istari, gave them a similar weakness, as they obviously lived quite long lives (since after Sauron lost the Ring, approximately what, a thousand and a half years or so?) and could've probably lived on much longer if they so desired. Making them physically immortal wouldn't have been Tolkien's style, I imagine...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

Elheru Aran wrote:As for your Trolls example; I'd ascribe that to ventroquilism, which is hardly anything new :P
Can you immitate the voices of three trolls? :)
Small question: I wasn't aware he carried Cirdan's Ring before the events of LOTR?
Cirdan gave it to him when the Ishtari first arrived, sensing that Gandalf was the wiser although Saruman was made leader.
And an observation: the Elves, who are apparently the highest form of life on Middle-Earth, just under the Maiar, are vulnerable to melee attacks as well. One imagines that Tolkien, having had Maiar become incarnate in physical bodies to become Istari, gave them a similar weakness, as they obviously lived quite long lives (since after Sauron lost the Ring, approximately what, a thousand and a half years or so?) and could've probably lived on much longer if they so desired. Making them physically immortal wouldn't have been Tolkien's style, I imagine...
True, although we've never seen examples of Maia-type creatures being slain by anything except Elves, and high-end Elves at that. It also seems to clash with later quotes when he's in White mode (which I'll have up shortly ;) )
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
spongyblue
Jedi Knight
Posts: 893
Joined: 2002-07-20 05:26pm
Location: Mother Natures personal Beyoch

Post by spongyblue »

Didn't get the Elven ring of Fire from Cirdan when he reached Middle Earth's shores and (possible) seeding Saruman's jelousy of Gandalf?
‘“You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,” said Gandalf gently, “and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory.”’
-Many Meetings, p. 215
I always just attributed that to him just picking up clues with Frodo talking in his sleep.
Image
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Post by Elheru Aran »

Balrog wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:And an observation: the Elves, who are apparently the highest form of life on Middle-Earth, just under the Maiar, are vulnerable to melee attacks as well. One imagines that Tolkien, having had Maiar become incarnate in physical bodies to become Istari, gave them a similar weakness, as they obviously lived quite long lives (since after Sauron lost the Ring, approximately what, a thousand and a half years or so?) and could've probably lived on much longer if they so desired. Making them physically immortal wouldn't have been Tolkien's style, I imagine...
True, although we've never seen examples of Maia-type creatures being slain by anything except Elves, and high-end Elves at that. It also seems to clash with later quotes when he's in White mode (which I'll have up shortly ;) )
Ahem. Balrog=incarnated Maiar. Istari=incarnated Maiar. Balrogs got killed fairly frequently by Elves; the best known examples are probably Ecthelion of the Fountain, who iirc killed two before he took on Gothmog, and Glorifindel as in the John Howe pic in your av... :wink:

While Glorifindel and Ecthelion are arguably high-end Elves, the fact remains that they killed the Balrogs through melee combat. There may have been some magical element involved, but Occam's Razor comes into play; in other words, don't ascribe to them what we didn't see happen :P
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Zorak
Youngling
Posts: 65
Joined: 2005-08-15 10:45pm

Post by Zorak »

What I've always been curious about is, does Gandalf being bound to his form as "Gandalf" rather then as his maia form (assuming there is one) make him weaker then he could be if he was not while on Middle Earth (based on a vague recollection from Sillamarillion that he was allowed to come under the condition as taking that form)? A "wizard" doesn't really compare when you think about it to a demi-god. Then again, its a speculative question because quite honestly, my memory of the Sill. is a bit off.
"It is missing the point to think that the martial art is solely in cutting a man down; it is in killing evil. It is in the strategem of killing the evil of one man and giving life to ten thousand" -Yagyu Munenori
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Really, really nice summary. Added to the bookmarks.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Post by Elheru Aran »

Zorak wrote:What I've always been curious about is, does Gandalf being bound to his form as "Gandalf" rather then as his maia form (assuming there is one) make him weaker then he could be if he was not while on Middle Earth (based on a vague recollection from Sillamarillion that he was allowed to come under the condition as taking that form)? A "wizard" doesn't really compare when you think about it to a demi-god. Then again, its a speculative question because quite honestly, my memory of the Sill. is a bit off.
Okay, if I read that question right, you're asking if Gandalf is weaker in his human...ish :wink: form than as a full-on Maiar. The answer should be obvious. :P

The Balrog was just the boss that he had to defeat to lvl up, was all... :wink:
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

Ahem. Balrog=incarnated Maiar. Istari=incarnated Maiar. Balrogs got killed fairly frequently by Elves; the best known examples are probably Ecthelion of the Fountain, who iirc killed two before he took on Gothmog, and Glorifindel as in the John Howe pic in your av...

While Glorifindel and Ecthelion are arguably high-end Elves, the fact remains that they killed the Balrogs through melee combat. There may have been some magical element involved, but Occam's Razor comes into play; in other words, don't ascribe to them what we didn't see happen
Hey, I admited that elves have killed them... :)

Also, you have to admit that Elves use a lot of 'magic' in their craft, esp. in weapon-making; such as a little no-name dagger weilded by a weak Hobbit being able to pierce Troll flesh whereas a full-grown Man (Boromir) using all of his strength merely chipped his sword on the same Troll. I would not put it above the Elves to have made weapons that allowed them to duel with Maia more effectively.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
Zorak
Youngling
Posts: 65
Joined: 2005-08-15 10:45pm

Post by Zorak »

Elheru Aran wrote:
Zorak wrote:What I've always been curious about is, does Gandalf being bound to his form as "Gandalf" rather then as his maia form (assuming there is one) make him weaker then he could be if he was not while on Middle Earth (based on a vague recollection from Sillamarillion that he was allowed to come under the condition as taking that form)? A "wizard" doesn't really compare when you think about it to a demi-god. Then again, its a speculative question because quite honestly, my memory of the Sill. is a bit off.
Okay, if I read that question right, you're asking if Gandalf is weaker in his human...ish :wink: form than as a full-on Maiar. The answer should be obvious. :P

The Balrog was just the boss that he had to defeat to lvl up, was all... :wink:
Essentially yeah. It was a pretty pointless question I admit, so I guess a more proper question would be then, "How much weaker"? If he's still strong enough to beat up a Balrog (full maiar I'd assume, perhaps stronger with Morgoth's evil (speculation)), but nowhere near Sauron, and weak enough that the "Ring of Power" is tempting to him, a Maiar, then how much stronger is he in "non-humanesk" form.

Also, sorry to diverge from topic, but what exactly is Tom Bombadil or whatever his name is? I was thinking about the Ring of Power just now and just remember how it didn't even phase him.
"It is missing the point to think that the martial art is solely in cutting a man down; it is in killing evil. It is in the strategem of killing the evil of one man and giving life to ten thousand" -Yagyu Munenori
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

And the rest of the document

Gandalf the White
The White Rider wrote:“Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?” said the old man. “Put away that bow, Master Elf!”

The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.’
Gandalf's first display of power in his new form is mental, which is pretty impressive considering the Three Hunters thought that he might have been Saruman at this point.
The White Rider wrote:‘The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.’
Possibly the most impressive display of the new Gandalf’s powers. In a single motion, Gandalf is able to disarm both Aragorn and Gimli with entirely different methods, and was able to intercept and vaporize Legolas’ arrow in mid-flight. Whether he cast three separate spells in the one instant or a general ‘protection’ spell, this is far more powerful then many of his previous displayed powers.
The White Rider wrote:‘“Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.”’
Taken literally, Gandalf is basically invulnerable to both the magical and mundane weaponry wielded by the Three Hunters. Note that there’s nothing to contradict Gandalf’s statements; nowhere in the LotR saga do we see this new invulnerability tested against ‘mortal’ weapons, and while Maiar have been killed in the past, this is generally at the hands of other Maiar or First Age Elves wielding powerful magical powers/weapons. This does contradict the earlier Grey statement that the “spears of the Goblins” would be the end of him, although that could just be a stipulation of his weaker Grey form (I can imagine the Valar, seeing that all of their Istari have failed in their primary goal, wouldn’t send one back that could be so easily killed :D ).
The White Rider wrote:“Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,” said Gimli. “But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.”

“Dangerous!” cried Gandalf. “And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous then anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.”
Pretty self-explanitory.
The White Rider wrote:‘“He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt.”’
Apparently Gandalf can now read the mind of Saruman if you take the passage literally.
The White Rider wrote:'“No, I did not find them,” said Gandalf. “There was a darkness over the valleys of Emyn Muil, and I did not know of their captivity, until the eagle told me.”

“Some things he has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary, and I walked long in dark thought.”'
Gandalf is mentally powerful enough to tangle with the Dark Lord, though at a cost to himself. This long-ranged mental abilities is futher fleshed out in the passage relating directly to the incident and one in a passing manner:
The Breaking of the Fellowship wrote:'And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him: almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir - he threw himself off the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their two piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.'
The Black Gate is Closed wrote:'But they were alone, and Aragorn was far away, and Gandalf stood amid the ruin of Isengard and strove with Saruman, delayed by treason. Yet even as he spoke his last words to Saruman, and the palantir crashed in fire upon the steps of Orthanc, his thought was ever upon Frodo and Samewise, over the long leagues his mind sought for them in hope and pity.

Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen.... '
The White Rider wrote:‘“Now I understand part of last night’s riddle,” said Legolas as he sprang lightly upon Arod’s back. “Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?”
“Yes, I knew,” said the wizard. “I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land…”’
Futher evidence of Gandalf's greater mental abilities, in case you needed more then one ;).
The King of the Golden Hall wrote:‘He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.

In the gloom, they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: “Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Háma, has betrayed us!” There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.’
Grimma gets what he deserves. It is not told how Gandalf blotted out the sunlight (possibly moved a cloud? A window curtain?) but it achieves the desired effect.
Helm's Deep wrote:‘Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness.’

Again, open to interpretation, but considering the Nazgul are capable of such feats, it shouldn’t be impossible for Gandalf to cause terror in his opponents.
The Voice of Saruman wrote:‘“Come back, Saruman!” said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw.’
Gandalf makes Saruman his bitch, either telepathically or telekinetically. An impressive feat, considering they are the same order of beings and Saruman used to be the most powerful.
The Voice of Saruman wrote:‘He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. “Saruman, your staff is broken.” There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet.’
Gandalf throws Saruman out of the Order like the bum that he is ^_^ It could be Gandalf is actually breaking apart the staff, or using some none-TK magic to cause it to break up on its own. Gandalf also used his hand to crack Saruman's staff rather then his own staff. It is still interesting that, though Gandalf destroyed his own staff when he first fights the Balrog, he is not hindered by its loss, whereat it seems that Saruman losses much of his abilities when his is broken. There is most likely something else going on here then simply breaking the staff in two.
The Siege of Gondor wrote:‘But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away…’
Gandalf outright attacks the Nazgul and send them packing. Too bad PJ made him seem like a walking lighthouse -_-
The Siege of Gondor wrote:‘Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe…’
Same as before, except Gandalf’s attack is described as a “white fire”; perhaps it has more substance to it than just Holy Light© and could damage non-evil beings?
The Pyre of Denethor wrote:‘But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house…’
Again Gandalf is described as causing terror in lesser beings, plus he is able to manipulate objects using his hands instead of staff; perhaps it’s really more of a symbol for him now then it normally is for other Istari?
The Pyre of Denethor wrote:‘Then Gandalf revealed the strength that lay hid in him, even as the light of his power was hidden under his grey mantle. He leaped up on to the faggots, and raising the sick man lightly he sprang down again, and bore him towards the door.’
Gandalf isn’t all magic lightning and whatnot; he’s apparently strong enough to drag a heavy Faramir off of the burning pile of wood without much effort.
Last edited by Balrog on 2008-06-29 03:17pm, edited 3 times in total.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Post by Elheru Aran »

Tom Bombadil's identity is the subject of *much* debate. Tolkien himself admitted, I believe, that he was uncertain of precisely what he was. One theory holds that he is a Valar, perhaps Orome (I think?)-- the 'god' of the woods, so to speak. Others place him as merely a Maiar. For the most part, though, it generally consists of, 'umm, we don't really know, we *think* this is what Tolkien intended, umm, look, shiney object!" :P
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Post by Surlethe »

This is awesome. Do you mind if I add it to my webpage (giving you proper credit, of course)?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

Surlethe wrote:This is awesome. Do you mind if I add it to my webpage (giving you proper credit, of course)?
Yes (and you better damn well credit me properly :P :D )
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Post by Surlethe »

Balrog wrote:
Surlethe wrote:This is awesome. Do you mind if I add it to my webpage (giving you proper credit, of course)?
Yes (and you better damn well credit me properly :P :D )
All right; I'll get on that, then.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Post by NeoGoomba »

Elheru Aran wrote:Tom Bombadil's identity is the subject of *much* debate. Tolkien himself admitted, I believe, that he was uncertain of precisely what he was. One theory holds that he is a Valar, perhaps Orome (I think?)-- the 'god' of the woods, so to speak. Others place him as merely a Maiar. For the most part, though, it generally consists of, 'umm, we don't really know, we *think* this is what Tolkien intended, umm, look, shiney object!" :P
As I understand it, Bombadil was always intended to be a mystery, as every world needs its enigmas, and Tolkien had his in Bombadil
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

Well if there's enough support for it, I could do something similar for other higher beings (Nazgul, Sauron, ect)? It would take awhile though
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Post by NeoGoomba »

Sauron would be tough, as not even in the Silmarillion was he given much work.

Off hand, from what I can remember:

-Can cast fear-type spells, a seemingly common power in his line of work (when he took the first Minas Tirith)
-See through and nullify illusions (when he captured Luthien)
-Can sing songs of power (whatever the hell they are, but he beat Finrod in their contest)
-Some kind of limited shapeshifting (duel with Huan he went from wolf, to serpent (I think), to big vampire bat. He later lost this power though)
-knowledge of steam-power and engines (helped arm the Great Armada of Pharazon)
-Can dominate the will of others, perhaps even without his Ring (whether he had the Ring in Numenor would determine this)
-Can create artifacts that trap souls (the Nine Rings), give immortality (all the Rings), dominate others (again the Nine, the One), render invisibility (The One)


It should also be known that he's lost every personal encounter he's ever been in, with the exception of the songs of power. He was beaten by Huan, killed at Orodruin, and fled from Eonwe (but everyone did that). I'm sure someone else can flesh out this list a little better
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27381
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

The steam engines thing is non canon. As were the Numenorian ships being able to launch projectiles many leagues inland.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Post by NeoGoomba »

NecronLord wrote:The steam engines thing is non canon. As were the Numenorian ships being able to launch projectiles many leagues inland.
Okay, fair enough. But where did the projectiles thing come from? I just meant engines as in steam-engines
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Post by NeoGoomba »

Oh and Saruon was thoroughly organized. Every orc under his command had a serial number :P

Nothing better than the anal retentive Dark Lord
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27381
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

NeoGoomba wrote:Okay, fair enough. But where did the projectiles thing come from? I just meant engines as in steam-engines
One of the drafts for the Silmarillion, IIRC, had a numenorian boasting that their ships could open fire many leagues away from a target. At least 2 leagues = 9.6560834 kilometers, and likely many times beyond that. This is probably beyond the maximum gunnery range of Dreadnoughts (14.99616 kilometers)!
Last edited by NecronLord on 2005-10-11 01:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

NeoGoomba wrote:I'm sure someone else can flesh out this list a little better
Well, that's exactly what I was going to do... :P :D
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27381
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

And no, Sauron left the Ring behind when he went to Numenor.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12214
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Post by Lord Revan »

From what I've read Sauron is not so much a warrior as a manipulator, using his minions (like the Witch King) to do the dirty work for him, though one should not underestimate his actual combat skills and strength (he killed Gil-Galad and Elendil in close combat at the same time).
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Post Reply