[Predator] Racism on SD.net forums

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[Predator] Racism on SD.net forums

Post by sirlancelot88 » 2005-07-02 07:13pm

How many people here will willingly admit to at least racial discrimination against people of non-Western countries? It just seems to me, from viewing the "ghetto of geeks" post, that Asia is perceived to be somehow socially inferior and backwards, as opposed to the Commonwealth counties and the US.

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Post by Lord Revan » 2005-07-02 07:22pm

Well mostly it's because it is true, but that's more due to state of countries then "Asians" themselves and what commonwealth countries you mean, since there's a huge difference between Australia and Nigeria. (and case you haven't noticed, the forum owner is a member of minority).

Being nonracist, doesn't you speak of problems in other countries, it means you don't attribute those problem as races of those countries.

And BTW there are members of nonwestern countries in SD.net
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Post by 2000AD » 2005-07-02 07:24pm

IMO the "ghetto of geeks" was a bit weird, and some of the other stuff from Japan is weird too (for eg. Takeshi's Castle, tentacle porn, etc.), but to say that those opinions makes me racist is going a bit too far.

IIRC there are several board remembers from Asia and I can't remember one of them accusing us of being racist.

On the flip side i bet there's several things from "western civilisation" that Asian people find weird (Farmyard porn for instance) but they wouldn't be racist if they pointed out that in there opinion it was weird.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar » 2005-07-02 07:30pm

Don't confuse "racism" with stating factual information. Most of Asia, like pretty much all of Africa, is behind the times relative to us. A lot of religious practices there that are seen as crazy even by the fundies in the West still take place. In China, they drink raw duck's blood as a pudding, lending more ammunition to the many viruses and other diseases that originate in China. I have seen the Chinese hygiene in most of the poverty stricken areas from reports, and it is quite simply fucked up. They'll spit everywhere or sleep with animals and not think twice. That's not because they're a different ethnicity, it's because they reside in such a nation. The Africans, Chinese and others that come here can and do get decent education and go on to be successful, but their original nations are stuck behind the likes of the EU, US and Japan. It can be argued that the Arabian nations are somewhat in the same boat in many cultural respects.

Some examples can be simply stricken off the list as being different cultural traditions such as we have different religions. But there are fundamental things that are wrong too such as the hygiene or killing of women for showing skin. Those are wrong regardless of what people say.

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Post by mr friendly guy » 2005-07-02 09:30pm

We should also note that some parts of a country are going to be more advanced than other parts, just as non-fundie parts in Western countries are relative to highly fundie areas. I am willing to bet that developed parts of China such as Shanghai and Beijing are ahead of their rural areas which are trying to catch up.
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Post by Z-Ha-Dum » 2005-07-02 10:37pm

There is no racism here in SDN.

As an Asian myself I can attest that there is a lot of social backwardness due to religion, a damaged culture and political leaders who don't care about the people. Unfotunately, sometomes it's the people themselves who contriubute to making their country a shithole.
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Re: Racism on SD.net forums

Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-02 11:30pm

sirlancelot88 wrote:How many people here will willingly admit to at least racial discrimination against people of non-Western countries? It just seems to me, from viewing the "ghetto of geeks" post, that Asia is perceived to be somehow socially inferior and backwards, as opposed to the Commonwealth counties and the US.
You are confusing national stereotypes with racial ones. And quite frankly, negative characterizations about Asia are not unfounded; countries like Indonesia are filled with fundies, China is a dictatorship, and cigarette smoking is far too common in many of those countries.

Don't copy the Israelis and try to turn comments about nations into proof of racism. I think the Asian countries are socially backward. Does this make me a racist who dislikes Asians? With a surname like "Wong"?
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Re: Racism on SD.net forums

Post by Nephtys » 2005-07-02 11:44pm

sirlancelot88 wrote:How many people here will willingly admit to at least racial discrimination against people of non-Western countries? It just seems to me, from viewing the "ghetto of geeks" post, that Asia is perceived to be somehow socially inferior and backwards, as opposed to the Commonwealth counties and the US.
Ghetto of Geeks was about a community in Japan. We all totally respect Japan and don't consider them inferior by any means, I believe... but you have to admit, there are some rather... odd things there. :P

Not to mention Wong is a Chinese name? :P

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Re: Racism on SD.net forums

Post by Master of Ossus » 2005-07-03 12:14am

sirlancelot88 wrote:How many people here will willingly admit to at least racial discrimination against people of non-Western countries?
Your question belies a misunderstanding about racism. Non-Western peoples are not an ethnic or racial group, and "Western" peoples include a substantial number of non-whites that have been racially discriminated against in recent times and even to the present.
It just seems to me, from viewing the "ghetto of geeks" post, that Asia is perceived to be somehow socially inferior and backwards, as opposed to the Commonwealth counties and the US.
Japan, Singapore, and many parts of China can hardly be described as being socially inferior or backwards. The ghetto of geeks is an unusual situation, but in no way refers to all of Japan. This is kind of like going to Cleveland and observing the pollution, crime-rates, unemployment rates, and alcohol consumption and then applying that to the entire US. I would argue that there actually are serious social problems in both Cleveland and the Japanese ghetto, but that they say little or nothing about the overall state of either country.

Incidentally, Asia as a whole IS socially inferior to the Commonwealth countries, EU, and the US. Remember that Asia includes shitholes like Central and Southeast Asia, and that some of its more successful countries like North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, India, and Pakistan can easily be described as socially and culturally backwards in many respects (even though all of those countries have fairly large numbers of wealthy individuals, the three later countries have huge numbers of people living in squalor, and Saudi Arabia can pretty much be used as a perfect image of a socially regressive country). Despite having "good" and highly visible areas like Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore, it is highly myopic to treat those as being typical of Asian countries.
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Post by Eleas » 2005-07-03 01:45am

Z-Ha-Dum wrote:There is no racism here in SDN.
Really. That's a fairly inclusive statement.

My own standards of beauty can be fairly interpreted as racist, as my preferences are weighted to visual traits I'm familiar with (mainly what's ridiculously termed "caucasian", "asian" and "persian") or have been conditioned to respond fairly to. Bluntly speaking, some typically african features I fail to consider attractive.

This would be a problem if I wasn't aware of it, but it doesn't really stop me from finding a black girl sexy or attractive so it isn't "debilitating", I guess. In other words, my standards are a bit prejudiced, but I'm working on it, and in the meantime, given sufficient values of pretty, any girl could be lucky enough to get me.

They'd have to fight their way past my girlfriend, of course, but no-one said it would be easy.
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Post by NapoleonGH » 2005-07-03 11:31am

"My own standards of beauty can be fairly interpreted as racist, as my preferences are weighted to visual traits I'm familiar with (mainly what's ridiculously termed "caucasian", "asian" and "persian") or have been conditioned to respond fairly to. Bluntly speaking, some typically african features I fail to consider attractive.
"
I wouldnt say this is racist, i would say this is a description of personal sexual preference, one which I share with you as those three types are the ones I am most commonly attracted to myself (so long as Indian is included in asian, as there can be some stunningly beautiful indian women)
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-03 11:44am

NapoleonGH wrote:I wouldnt say this is racist, i would say this is a description of personal sexual preference, one which I share with you as those three types are the ones I am most commonly attracted to myself (so long as Indian is included in asian, as there can be some stunningly beautiful indian women)
And why the fuck is it impossible for a "personal preference" to be racist? Why do you draw this false dilemma between "personal preference" and "racist", as if it is impossible for something to be both? It may be a relatively harmless form of racism, but it's still racism.

And yes, before you bring up the inevitable retort, it is sexism to be strictly heterosexual or homosexual, therefore my sexual preference is sexist. The only people who can say that their sexual preference is not sexist are those who have no sexual preference at all, ie- bisexuals.
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Re: Racism on SD.net forums

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn » 2005-07-03 11:46am

sirlancelot88 wrote:How many people here will willingly admit to at least racial discrimination against people of non-Western countries? It just seems to me, from viewing the "ghetto of geeks" post, that Asia is perceived to be somehow socially inferior and backwards, as opposed to the Commonwealth counties and the US.
I'm not certain where you get "Asia is socially inferior" from the "Ghetto of Geeks" thread. I believe the whole point behind that was that some Japanese geeks as a whole, are a strange bunch. That's not to say the entire nation of Japan is inferior. If you got that, then clearly you've not been alive during the eighties and early nineties, when they were mopping the floor with us financially and the United States was being transformed into a popular Japanese vacation getaway. If anything, the typical Japanese person is liable to look down on Americans for their inability to really grasp the concept of privacy, and their poor work-ethic. Though they will eagerly take our money for our obsession over their equivalent of Saturday morning cartoons (but that's okay, because we'll eagerly take their money when they eat at McDonalds and shop at Wal-Mart. All hail the American transnational corporations!)

That's not to say that it isn't impossible to look at a primitive, backwards country, such as Columbia, Haiti, Sudan, Somalia, Bangladesh, Cambodia, or Albania and go "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot." But that has nothing to do with their inherent qualities as people, and more to do with a lack of economic and social progress brought about by a combination of indifference on the part of the industrialized world, religious superstitions, or deep-set ethnic/national rivalries; or a history of discrimination at the hands of the European powers which waltzed in and claimed them as colonies in the great imperialistic land-grab of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

I mean, look at the United States and Europe of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, or even of the early twentieth. To us in the technological, liberal, mostly secular comfort of the twenty-first, our ancestors were backwards and living, almost universally, in abject poverty and astonishing ignorance. But again, that had nothing to do with "racial" qualities at all.

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Post by Z-Ha-Dum » 2005-07-03 12:00pm

Eleas wrote:
Z-Ha-Dum wrote:There is no racism here in SDN.
Really. That's a fairly inclusive statement.

My own standards of beauty can be fairly interpreted as racist, as my preferences are weighted to visual traits I'm familiar with (mainly what's ridiculously termed "caucasian", "asian" and "persian") or have been conditioned to respond fairly to. Bluntly speaking, some typically african features I fail to consider attractive.
Aye. I am guilty of that as well.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss » 2005-07-03 12:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:And why the fuck is it impossible for a "personal preference" to be racist? Why do you draw this false dilemma between "personal preference" and "racist", as if it is impossible for something to be both? It may be a relatively harmless form of racism, but it's still racism.

And yes, before you bring up the inevitable retort, it is sexism to be strictly heterosexual or homosexual, therefore my sexual preference is sexist. The only people who can say that their sexual preference is not sexist are those who have no sexual preference at all, ie- bisexuals.
As I see it, to qualify as racism/sexism/whateverism, a belief or attitude has to fullfill one of four qualifications. Either it must be objectively, factually wrong; or you must claim the position is objectively correct; or it must be oppressive; or it conflates the individual and the group.

Claiming that blacks are stupider than white is factually wrong, therefore it's racist. Saying that women must stay home and bake cookies is sexist because it is both oppressive and states a desire as fact. Stating that whites are better looking than blacks is racist because it claims an opinion is fact (but someone saying I find whites more attractive is not racist ). Claiming that an African must want to genitally mutilate his wife and daughters conflates the individual and the group - just because many Africans feel that way doesn't mean he feels that way.

It's not necessarily prejudiced to talk sweepingly about a nation or culture as long as :
1 :What you are saying is true;
2 : Is not intended to promote oppression;
3 : You are not expressing an opinion as a fact;
4 : You keep in mind that the individual in that nation or culture may not conform.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-03 01:27pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:As I see it, to qualify as racism/sexism/whateverism, a belief or attitude has to fullfill one of four qualifications. Either it must be objectively, factually wrong; or you must claim the position is objectively correct; or it must be oppressive; or it conflates the individual and the group.
And your definition should override the dictionary definition ... why?
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Post by Lord of the Abyss » 2005-07-03 01:39pm

And your definition should override the dictionary definition ... why?
How is it inconsistant with the dictionary definition ? Mine is a little more detailed, that's all. I'm trying to define what I believe is the essence of things like racism/sexism, as much for my own benefit as anyone else's.

For that matter, just looking at this thread, it's obvious that the consensus over what terms like racism and sexism mean are vague at best, and ultimately popular usage override dictionaries. If for no other reason, if the dictionary strays too far few will use it.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-03 01:47pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
And your definition should override the dictionary definition ... why?
How is it inconsistant with the dictionary definition ? Mine is a little more detailed, that's all.
No, you are adding conditions to it with no basis other than your own personal say-so. The dictionary says that race-based discrimination is an example of racism. Personal preferences are used in order to discriminate when selecting a mate. If those preferences happen to run along the lines of race, then the result is racial discrimination. The fact that it is not necessarily harmful to society does not suddenly nullify the definition of what it is.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss » 2005-07-03 01:55pm

No, you are adding conditions to it with no basis other than your own personal say-so. The dictionary says that race-based discrimination is an example of racism. Personal preferences are used in order to discriminate when selecting a mate. If those preferences happen to run along the lines of race, then the result is racial discrimination. The fact that it is not necessarily harmful to society does not suddenly nullify the definition of what it is.
Like I said, common usage overrides dictionary definitions, and the idea that personal preference = racism seems to violate that. Also, I think it cheapens the term.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-03 01:57pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
No, you are adding conditions to it with no basis other than your own personal say-so. The dictionary says that race-based discrimination is an example of racism. Personal preferences are used in order to discriminate when selecting a mate. If those preferences happen to run along the lines of race, then the result is racial discrimination. The fact that it is not necessarily harmful to society does not suddenly nullify the definition of what it is.
Like I said, common usage overrides dictionary definitions, and the idea that personal preference = racism seems to violate that. Also, I think it cheapens the term.
"Common usage"? You feel that "racial discrimination" is not a common usage of the term "racism"? Sounds to me like you're simply full of shit, and you're trying to invent excuses to turn gut-reactions into your own homemade definition that doesn't even make sense. Racism is a term which describes a particular phenomenon. Like most word definitions, it applies whenever that phenomenon is encountered, and there is not a list of special exclusion conditions where you can't use it even though it fits.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss » 2005-07-03 02:07pm

"Common usage"? You feel that "racial discrimination" is not a common usage of the term "racism"? Sounds to me like you're simply full of shit, and you're trying to invent excuses to turn gut-reactions into your own homemade definition that doesn't even make sense. Racism is a term which describes a particular phenomenon. Like most word definitions, it applies whenever that phenomenon is encountered, and there is not a list of special exclusion conditions where you can't use it even though it fits.
Most people I know don't equate personal preferences with racism or racial discrimination. I personally don't think it "fits", so I don't use it that way. If I offended you somehow, I apologise.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-07-03 02:12pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
"Common usage"? You feel that "racial discrimination" is not a common usage of the term "racism"? Sounds to me like you're simply full of shit, and you're trying to invent excuses to turn gut-reactions into your own homemade definition that doesn't even make sense. Racism is a term which describes a particular phenomenon. Like most word definitions, it applies whenever that phenomenon is encountered, and there is not a list of special exclusion conditions where you can't use it even though it fits.
Most people I know don't equate personal preferences with racism or racial discrimination. I personally don't think it "fits", so I don't use it that way. If I offended you somehow, I apologise.
So you reject the dictionary definition of the word "discriminate" as well? Just how many English words do you have your own personal definitions for? I'll tell you why you and your friends do that; you know "racism" has a negative connotation, so you want to avoid association with it. It's like people who think it's wrong to call someone "fatty" when he's just "overweight", even though there's no real difference. Do not confuse a popular reluctance to use certain words with an actual change in their meaning.
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Post by Xero Cool Down » 2005-07-03 02:55pm

Errr well just my two cents but I've never seen any racism here that I remember other than that from trolls. We are such a diverse group that those who are not tolerate of others either are not interest in the place or they are driven off.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker » 2005-07-03 03:13pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:Errr well just my two cents but I've never seen any racism here that I remember other than that from trolls. We are such a diverse group that those who are not tolerate of others either are not interest in the place or they are driven off.
He isnt asking if there is racism, he is asking if any member's have minor feeling's of discrimination.
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Post by Stormin » 2005-07-03 03:59pm

Used to be I would wait until I knew a person to judge them...but after having to work with east indians for three years...yeah. Sad thing is, in high school I had a few friends from that community but since then, except for a couple of good people, they have all either been vacuous morons or assholes beyond anything I had experienced before :|
Who knows though, maybe I just got a bad roll on the great magic dice in the sky and my habits will change again.

Yeah, I am probably going to regret posting this but <shrug> if I actually cared about what people thought of me I would have killed myself long ago :P

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