[Talon Karride]The unflappable delusions of many Republicans

Only now, at the end, do you understand.

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[Talon Karride]The unflappable delusions of many Republicans

Post by HyperionX »

I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, just trying to point out something I've noticed: Many Republicans are utterly, utterly unflappable in what they believe, even to the point of delusional. For instance, how many times have you met on some webboard a Republican who still believes that WMDs in Iraq do in fact existed are in Syria and Iran for safekeepings? How many Republicans have you met that still believe in Reaganomics include all the discredited aspects of it such as the Laffer curve, trickle-down economics, massive tax cutting, etc.?

It goes much much deeper than that. For instance, look at these polls: http://www.tipponline.com/#zeitgeist Among independents and Democrats they choose "too close to call" as the likely outcome of the election. However, among Republicans its clearly Bush, very few (and shrinking?) thinks Kerry can win. Again, unflappable beliefs to the point of religious faith. Some of these hardcore unflappable beliefs may be true, but many cannot, and therefore are only delusions.

This is truely alarming, and apparently Bush himself is infected. This superferverous belief system was not in place when Reagan was in office; he eventually realized the problems of his plan and raised taxes (how many Republicans can you get to realize that? :)), but Bush is of course totally unyielding whereas Bush I and Reagan yielded.

And even more amazing is the utter unbreakable belief of the correctness of their ideology. Yes, how many times have you met a Republican on who absolutely believes that what they believe is unrefutably true? No doubts in their minds at all. I've seen them all over the internet. Any sort of welfare program is "socialism/communism," or needs massive crippling taxes, when that is not necessarily from true. Bush somehow isn't to blame for all the massive spending that happening (:D). All the deficits can be removed by cutting "wasteful spending," cutting social programs, etc., even to the point of denigration and a total unacknowledgement of the people who benefit from them. More importantly, having a minimum of social programs, small government, moral repression, its the Democrats fault even when Republicans are in control, etc., are all absolutely true, no doubts are all. They don't even question the validity of their beliefs. I've seen what appears to be a very smart person suddenly turn around and spew out the same thing over and over again even if those points have been repeated pointed out that as false directly to them. And of course this extends to science: Global warming isn't real (I've had many arguments with fools that still argue this), evolution is "unproven," you know what I'm getting at.

These things form a totally warped view of the world that is far from accurate, and many Republicans are unflappably unmoving, even delusional, about them. Some of these things have a 1984 quality to them, like when Bush was mocking Kerry as a "flip-flopper" and get huge cheers, then when he shifts to a "too liberal" charge they cheer just the same, even though thats rather contradictory. Same with all his nonsensical statements on terrorism and misquotes of the opponent. My question is this: Why the fuck is this the way it is?

I suspect it's the rise of the Conservative Media (capitalization intentional). I'm not talking about the media at large, I'm talking about the part that is the conservative part, like Foxnews, conservative talk radio, conservative newspapers like NYPost, Washington Times, etc. These things are even remotely objective, they're absolutely onesided and uncompromisingly biased. It's for all pratical purposes propaganda, lies and delusions told to period in order to convince them of believing something not necessarily true, real truth be damned. The other half is the rise of Christian fundamentalism, which I find just as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalism. Any other guesses on the utter unflappable delusions of Republicans and what can be done about it?

Editor's Note: Talon Karride is shown the door here, on Page 5.
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

Not trying for an golden mean here, but try:
http://www dot democraticunderground.com/discuss/
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

I've met Republicans like this. The one's I know spend too much of their time listening to conservative talk radio and hanging out with like minded people. This ends up promoting a sort of group think and they are seldom challenge on their opinions.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

There are people left and right who unflappably believe in whatever. See here for threads in the general spirit of "OMFG! Bush is going to start an eeeeeeeeevil draft and send us all to die!" and other such nonsense: +http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm18
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

uh....can an mod fix the link I posted so they can't trace back?

*i forgot, sorry*

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Post by Darth Wong »

There are 2 elements to Republican knee-jerk behaviour: self-interest and contempt for people they deem unworthy.
  • Why do they think welfare should be abolished? Because they don't expect to ever need it, and the people who do need it are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they think gay marriage should be banned? Because they aren't gay, and gay people are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they think there's no such thing as global warming? Because they don't want to bear the cost of cleaning up industry, and the people who say it's true (those wonky scientists and that annoying UN) are just a bunch of knotty-headed "intellectuals" so they're beneath contempt. Fuck 'em.
  • Why do they want to ban abortion? Because they don't expect to ever need an abortion, and women who do get abortions are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they want to destroy Social Security? Because they all believe they're going to be quite well-off when they retire, so they won't need it. And the kind of people who worked for Enron or didn't save enough money must be stupid and useless, so they're beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they think taxes should be lowered, even when the government is already in deficit? Obviously, because they can't see past the next fiscal year and they're excited about having the money in their hands right now. And people who want to raise taxes are obviously socialists, so they're beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they support the War in Iraq? Because Bush convinced them that it was in their own best interests two years ago, and they're just too stubborn to admit they were wrong. Besides, the kind of people who run around saying "nya nya, I told you so" are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.
  • Why do they so strongly oppose high taxes for the wealthy? Because they all think they're going to be wealthy someday, or because they're already wealthy, or because their parents are wealthy. And the people who don't make that much money obviously didn't try hard enough, so they're beneath contempt. Fuck 'em.
You see, it's actually a fairly consistent platform once you understand it :wink: But more importantly, you can only reason someone out of a position he reasoned himself into in the first place. If he got there because of a combination of self-interest and loathing for the people who will be disadvantaged by it, you sure as well won't ever convince him to drop that position with such a feeble weapon as logic.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Yes, you get True Believers in politics on both sides of the spectrum. The right is bad, but so is the left, and the more extreme the views on either side of the spectrum the less rational they are.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Frank Hipper wrote:Yes, you get True Believers in politics on both sides of the spectrum. The right is bad, but so is the left, and the more extreme the views on either side of the spectrum the less rational they are.
Some of the crap on Free Speech TV makes me want to throw a brick through the screen sometimes...
The difference is that the far lefties have a few websites and cable-access shows. The far righties have an entire 24-hour national news network. But still, at the heart of it there are some real differences in terms of the motivations and mentalities involved: far lefties are just delusional; they think things are true when they aren't, or they're just illogical by nature. Far righties aren't so easily categorized because some of them are idiotic rednecks but others are well-educated and intelligent. The thing that does unify them is self-interest and an utter lack of sympathy for people whose life situations are too different from their own.
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Post by HyperionX »

Frank Hipper wrote:Yes, you get True Believers in politics on both sides of the spectrum. The right is bad, but so is the left, and the more extreme the views on either side of the spectrum the less rational they are.
Some of the crap on Free Speech TV makes me want to throw a brick through the screen sometimes...
True, but they seem much more plentiful on the right than on the left, as shown by the poll.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Why do they think welfare should be abolished? Because they don't expect to ever need it, and the people who do need it are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.

Don't they also try to tie this into property rights as a type of ethical system of why they shouldn't give to the poor?
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Post by HyperionX »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:
Why do they think welfare should be abolished? Because they don't expect to ever need it, and the people who do need it are beneath contempt, so fuck 'em.

Don't they also try to tie this into property rights as a type of ethical system of why they shouldn't give to the poor?
Pretty much. Just today on some other websites I've seen like 3 Republicans come up with almost the same exact argument why we shouldn't give to the poor: They're poor because they did something stupid in their life and thus deserves to be poor. Totally ignoring the fact that in all 3 cases they literally made up the very scenario they condemn, making it a strawman's argument on top why it is their right not to help them. Of course, these are the same people who'll turn around and tell us that we need a gay marriage ban so I guess our "rights" are just the ones they like. And yes, statistically, the average Republican is not rich, and thus needs these welfare and social programs for their well-being, that is they need the government in order to pay for things like college tuition and public schooling.

And its not rednecks making these arguments, it's smart, well educated, people who are making them. And unlike fringe lefties these people are very common. I've recently saw on TV a focus group where there was a smart looking old lady loudly pronoucing out how Kerry is the most liberal senator and other such obvious bullshit. The basic argument for voting for Bush by Republicans consists of "I'm confortable with Bush, not Kerry," as if all of the disasters of Bush meant nothing to them... I think this is a real problem, as they not fringe, but very common, almost mainstream people. I see America heading towards a dark future if this continues. It is not so much Bush as the climate that allowed for a Bush, and IMO, this should be stopped.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Mike missed one thing one abortion:

If they need an abortion, they have the money to go to another country where it is legal and get one, so fuck everyone else.
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Post by HyperionX »

Ok, if there's any doubt left about the delusions of Republicans then read this:
Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
Supported al Qaeda

Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case

Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda

Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
Favoring Bush Reelection


Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.

Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.

These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.

Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, "One of the reasons that Bush supporters have these beliefs is that they perceive the Bush administration confirming them. Interestingly, this is one point on which Bush and Kerry supporters agree." Eighty-two percent of Bush supporters perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or that Iraq had a major WMD program (19%). Likewise, 75% say that the Bush administration is saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. Equally large majorities of Kerry supporters hear the Bush administration expressing these views--73% say the Bush administration is saying Iraq had WMD (11% a major program) and 74% that Iraq was substantially supporting al Qaeda.

Steven Kull adds, "Another reason that Bush supporters may hold to these beliefs is that they have not accepted the idea that it does not matter whether Iraq had WMD or supported al Qaeda. Here too they are in agreement with Kerry supporters." Asked whether the US should have gone to war with Iraq if US intelligence had concluded that Iraq was not making WMD or providing support to al Qaeda, 58% of Bush supporters said the US should not have, and 61% assume that in this case the President would not have. Kull continues, "To support the president and to accept that he took the US to war based on mistaken assumptions likely creates substantial cognitive dissonance, and leads Bush supporters to suppress awareness of unsettling information about prewar Iraq."

<< RESUME READING >>

This tendency of Bush supporters to ignore dissonant information extends to other realms as well. Despite an abundance of evidence--including polls conducted by Gallup International in 38 countries, and more recently by a consortium of leading newspapers in 10 major countries--only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.

Similarly, 57% of Bush supporters assume that the majority of people in the world would favor Bush's reelection; 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred. A recent poll by GlobeScan and PIPA of 35 of the major countries around the world found that in 30, a majority or plurality favored Kerry, while in just 3 Bush was favored. On average, Kerry was preferred more than two to one.

Bush supporters also have numerous misperceptions about Bush's international policy positions. Majorities incorrectly assume that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues--the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%)--and for addressing the problem of global warming: 51% incorrectly assume he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty. After he denounced the International Criminal Court in the debates, the perception that he favored it dropped from 66%, but still 53% continue to believe that he favors it. An overwhelming 74% incorrectly assumes that he favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements. In all these cases, majorities of Bush supporters favor the positions they impute to Bush. Kerry supporters are much more accurate in their perceptions of his positions on these issues.

"The roots of the Bush supporters' resistance to information," according to Steven Kull, "very likely lie in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his supporters."

The polls were conducted October 12-18 and September 3-7 and 8-12 with samples of 968, 798 and 959 respondents, respectively. Margins of error were 3.2 to 4% in the first and third surveys and 3.5% on September 3-7. The poll was fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_ ... 21_04.html

That's sounds about right. Delusions? Misguided? Absolutely. The position of Kull is that due to 9/11 Republicans have given up their right to think, ie they're sheep. I suggest that the echo chamber that is the Conservative Media played a major role in doing this.
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Post by Iceberg »

Minnesota doesn't have party registrations, and I've voted for all three major parties in MN (DFL, Repub and Independence) before. But this time, I'm voting straight-ticket DFL because every single Republican on the ballot is a fucking douche.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

The quote in my sig is a perfect example of such delusions.
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Post by HyperionX »

*Necromancy*

I also have to one more thing: Republicans are still obsessed with Kerry's Navy record. Oh when will it stop?! There doesn't seem to be any end in sight, evidence be damned, just speculate like a lunatic forever and ever.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Had Kerry not brought it up, it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Rogue 9 wrote:Had Kerry not brought it up, it wouldn't be an issue.
The only thing Kerry ever brought up was the fact that he's actually seen combat, unlike Monkey-Boy. I don't recall ever hearing him wax poetic about how brave he was or how his purple hearts were earned by unusually severe injuries, so this retort is bullshit.
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Post by HyperionX »

Rogue 9 wrote:Had Kerry not brought it up, it wouldn't be an issue.
Problem is that he hasn't brought it up recently, yet Republicans still are, over and over again.
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Post by Talon Karrde »

Darth Wong wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Had Kerry not brought it up, it wouldn't be an issue.
The only thing Kerry ever brought up was the fact that he's actually seen combat, unlike Monkey-Boy. I don't recall ever hearing him wax poetic about how brave he was or how his purple hearts were earned by unusually severe injuries, so this retort is bullshit.
Right. :roll: Kerry was just "pointing out" he had served. I suppose that's why he made it the focal point for his entire convention and early campaign cycle.

He doesn't have to "poetically" speak about his bravery or purple hearts. He has implied it numerous times to the point that when you hear him do it again, you can't help but sarcastically snicker and ask, "Did this guy serve in Vietnam?"
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Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Had Kerry not brought it up, it wouldn't be an issue.
The only thing Kerry ever brought up was the fact that he's actually seen combat, unlike Monkey-Boy. I don't recall ever hearing him wax poetic about how brave he was or how his purple hearts were earned by unusually severe injuries, so this retort is bullshit.
And I'm sure it never occured to him that by him using it and making big deal that others (read: his own people) would wax poetic about it? I'm sure the thought never occurred to him or his campaign managers or the DNC when they did wax poetic. Kerry brought up his combat record knowing full well that he could and would be touted as a war hero. Only an idiot or grade A sucker would believe differently.
HyperionX wrote:Problem is that he hasn't brought it up recently, yet Republicans still are, over and over again.
Not as much anymore, at least to judge from the news and the incessant political ads. It still makes it in there some but that's largely because it's one of Kerry's few strong points and about all he has for cross over appeal. Of course they're going to go after that; what do you think this is, the Kerry campaign? Hell no, there's blood in the water and they're trying to spill more of it.

What ever you may think of it, the Republicans are running this to win not to be nice.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Talon Karrde wrote:Right. :roll: Kerry was just "pointing out" he had served. I suppose that's why he made it the focal point for his entire convention and early campaign cycle.
First, it was never the "focal point". Show me how much of his platform is based on the fact that he served. But it is a legitimate point. George W. Bush is a man who has never seen combat and he's proudly sending men off to die to protect us from imaginary weapons of mass destruction.
He doesn't have to "poetically" speak about his bravery or purple hearts. He has implied it numerous times to the point that when you hear him do it again, you can't help but sarcastically snicker and ask, "Did this guy serve in Vietnam?"
Too bad you right-wingnut morons can't explain away the fact that he DID serve in Vietnam, hence he actually knows what combat is like, unlike Monkey-Boy, Rumsfeld, and Darth Cheney.
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Post by Beowulf »

Darth Wong wrote:George W. Bush is a man who has never seen combat
Only because he never ended up getting sent there. It doesn't really matter that he checked a box saying I don't want to go overseas. If the Air Force decided that they needed that squadron, they would have sent it over. And of course, since Bush later did volunteer to get sent over, but was turned down due to lack of flight hours, does this whole thing even matter?
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Post by SirNitram »

Beowulf wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:George W. Bush is a man who has never seen combat
Only because he never ended up getting sent there. It doesn't really matter that he checked a box saying I don't want to go overseas. If the Air Force decided that they needed that squadron, they would have sent it over. And of course, since Bush later did volunteer to get sent over, but was turned down due to lack of flight hours, does this whole thing even matter?
Let me get this straight. Because he was in a unit which would never get sent, because he volunteered when not having enough flight hours(It can't be that the flight hour requirements were secret, were they?), and because he nipped off to work on a campaign while on the militaries clock, it all doesn't matter? I've heard some whacky excuses, but I suppose if you refuse to let go of the era, you make up whatever you can to excuse your guy while being able to go after the other..
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Talon Karrde
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Post by Talon Karrde »

Darth Wong wrote:
Talon Karrde wrote:Right. :roll: Kerry was just "pointing out" he had served. I suppose that's why he made it the focal point for his entire convention and early campaign cycle.
First, it was never the "focal point". Show me how much of his platform is based on the fact that he served. But it is a legitimate point. George W. Bush is a man who has never seen combat and he's proudly sending men off to die to protect us from imaginary weapons of mass destruction.
He doesn't have to "poetically" speak about his bravery or purple hearts. He has implied it numerous times to the point that when you hear him do it again, you can't help but sarcastically snicker and ask, "Did this guy serve in Vietnam?"
Too bad you right-wingnut morons can't explain away the fact that he DID serve in Vietnam, hence he actually knows what combat is like, unlike Monkey-Boy, Rumsfeld, and Darth Cheney.
Who the hell has tried to "explain" away his service in Vietnam? That's never been the point, and you trying to make it that doesn't change the fact.
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