Vader's Redemption

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 01:16pm

Now that I've given it some thought, I've got some major beef with how George Lucas ended StarWars regarding Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.

It's like this. In StarWars, George Lucas paints Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader as if they are two seperate and distinct entities. This is why Obi-Wan was going on about how first he lied to Luke and said that Vader had killed his father, then backpedalled and claimed that the Vader part of him took over his father, effectively killing him, making it sorta-kinda-not a contradiction with reality. Even in the end of Return of the Jedi, after Vader dies and has his little death speech about wanting to see Luke with his own eyes and how Luke has saved him, he comes back, not as Darth Vader, but as Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi.

Does this strike anyone else as incredible horseshit? As much as some stories and StarWars tries to sell, being an evil sick monster isn't something that takes over some like a remote control, supressing the good side of the person (who's trapped inside of them, whole and struggling to be free). People become monsters. As I said in the thread in A&P, Anakin wasn't taken over by Vader, he became him. It wasn't some evil outside controlling force suppressing the good Anakin when he massacred that Sandpeople village in revenge for his mother. It wasn't Palpatine controlling him like an automation when he betrayed and butchered the Jedi and helped enslave the galaxy to a dictatoral regime (personally killing thousands including children and directly ordering the deaths of possibly billions of people). Palpatine may have offered him the Dark Side, may have told him what he needed to hear, but Anakin made his choice. He choice to grab power and become a monster. Vader didn't kill Anakin at all, Anakin created Vader. Saying otherwise (as I've said) is like saying that good Iosef Dzhugashvili was "killed" by evil Stalin when he got his shot at power and caused the deaths and suffering of millions, or any dictator or psychopath in history really isn't responsible because their "bad side" suppressed them.

In the end, Luke's quest to "save" his father from "Vader" and give his soul redemption is utter bullshit and strips Anakin of responsibility for his crimes. George Lucas is busy selling a tear jerking ideal that in the end the "good" side that is Anakin lived and his soul was saved, but what good side? Anakin was a complete monster who chose his course and chose to give up his humanity. He should have been responsible for his crimes and in the end, him being really honestly sorry is no excuse, yet Lucas gives him salvation because of it. It's nonsense and immoral a message, the same sort of immorality that makes many religious people think that truly and sincerely feeling bad and asking for forgiveness some how alleviates responsiblity.

Um... rant over.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 01:40pm

Well, he DID kill Palpatine...but yeah, his crimes sort of outweigh the good.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 01:49pm

I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 01:52pm

Praxis wrote:Well, he DID kill Palpatine...but yeah, his crimes sort of outweigh the good.

It's not just that. I find it insulting that George Lucas is selling that Anakin's change of heart at the end was some sort of "redemption" that saved his soul and Anakin and Vader were somehow different beings, which somehow alleviates his responsibility for him being a monster in life.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 02:01pm

Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.

To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 02:08pm

Praxis wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.
To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.

Who is Vergere?

Edit:

I just looked it up. It's an EU character, which means that at best, it disputes, but doesn't trump other official sources that suggest that one does lose a certain amount of free will to the Dark Side. And since the remarks by Yoda, Obi Wan, and Vader, from canon sources, suggest otherwise, I'd have to say that I remain very doubtful of this assertion. In fact, the assertion that there is no real Dark Side is massively contradicted by canon sources.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 02:09pm

Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.

Keep in mind that every single person who made those comments about it base their entire religion around the Force. I'm sure they do think that the Force dictates their actions and controls them, but just about every religion in history says the same thing. Talk to a Taoist about the universe dictating their actions or a Christian about things being "God's Will".

However, I've yet to see any evidence that Anakin actually was honestly possessed by an evil outside force and that people in StarWars really have "good sides" and "evil sides" which are seperated from each other and that one can suppress can wholely trap the other inside a person like in prison. People have always said that and it's always been an excuse against being responsible for their own actions. Yet this is exactly what George Lucas is trying to say, that somehow Anakin was "killed" by his dark side and when Luke "redeems" him, it wasn't really him that commited all his crimes and thus Anakin gets salvation. That Anakin doesn't have all the blood on his hands that his "evil" side created, that he's been saved. So what if the Dark Side of the Force has "seduced" him? The Dark Side is merely power, which is what Anakin was really desiring, and Anakin is absolutely no means unique in that he was seduced by power, it just makes him yet another monomaniac. Because of it, he became Vader, not as George Lucas advertised that Vader overthrew Anakin.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-07 02:14pm

Perinquus wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.
To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.
Who is Vergere?

An NJO/Rogue Planet character a slighty unorthodox jedi in most respects. She advocates the theory that there is no dark or light in the force only in the user. In otherwords the darkside cannot make you do anything only you can..

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 02:15pm

Crazedwraith wrote:An NJO/Rogue Planet character a slighty unorthodoz jedi in most respects. She advocates the theory that there is no dark or light in the force only in the user. In otherwords the darkside cannot make you do anything only you can..

This I can agree with.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 02:18pm

Perinquus wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.
To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.
Who is Vergere?

Edit:

I just looked it up. It's an EU character, which means that at best, it disputes, but doesn't trump other official sources that suggest that one does lose a certain amount of free will to the Dark Side. And since the remarks by Yoda, Obi Wan, and Vader, from canon sources, suggest otherwise, I'd have to say that I remain very doubtful of this assertion. In fact, the assertion that there is no real Dark Side is massively contradicted by canon sources.

Vergere explains that the dark side was part of the Jedi's philosophy. That agrees with canon, where the JEDI believe that the dark side is a part of the force. But Vergere shows that the force doesn't have a dark or light side- it's in the user. Luke was skeptical and refused to believe her at the time, but Jacen was completely shocked when he realized Vergere was right.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 02:22pm

Perinquus wrote:I just looked it up. It's an EU character, which means that at best, it disputes, but doesn't trump other official sources that suggest that one does lose a certain amount of free will to the Dark Side. And since the remarks by Yoda, Obi Wan, and Vader, from canon sources, suggest otherwise, I'd have to say that I remain very doubtful of this assertion. In fact, the assertion that there is no real Dark Side is massively contradicted by canon sources.

No, it's canon that that the Jedi believe that the Dark Side has a certain amount of free will to it. Who said they were being objective? It is their religion, after all. However, that is not a whole lot difference than some Catholics who think that it's demons who make people do bad things.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 02:24pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I think you are leaving out the element of the Force and its Dark Side. Everything you say I pretty much agree with as far as real people in the real world goes, but I believe that in Star Wars the Force can act as an outside influence. I've read in some of the official sources that people who fall to the Dark Side are to some extent dominated by it, and lose some of their ability to act independently of it (which makes for a great bit of irony - people turn to the dark side seeking power, but have their independence of will taken away; they wish to become masters, and end up being slaves). Comments by Yoda, Obi Wan, and even Vader tend to confirm this. Think of Vader's comments to Luke in ROTJ: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." And even more telling is the moment where he says to Luke, with real regret evident in his voice: "It is... too late for me, son." These quotes suggest that Anakin is still in there, and does regret what he has become, but lacks the power to throw off the Dark Side's influence. Only a moment of supreme emotional distress - the sight of his son being killed - gives him the strength of will to do it at last.
Keep in mind that every single person who made those comments about it base their entire religion around the Force. I'm sure they do think that the Force dictates their actions and controls them, but just about every religion in history says the same thing. Talk to a Taoist about the universe dictating their actions or a Christian about things being "God's Will".

False analogy. Actual religions have one element in common - they are human created beliefs, and are not in any way shape or form testable, demonstrable, or verifiable. The Force, in Star Wars, most certainly is something more than an unverifiable belief. The Jedi and Sith can use it to acheive very real and measurable effects. In other words, there more than just belief operating here, in the Star Wars universe, the Force is real.

Gil Hamilton wrote:However, I've yet to see any evidence that Anakin actually was honestly possessed by an evil outside force and that people in StarWars really have "good sides" and "evil sides" which are seperated from each other and that one can suppress can wholely trap the other inside a person like in prison. People have always said that and it's always been an excuse against being responsible for their own actions. Yet this is exactly what George Lucas is trying to say, that somehow Anakin was "killed" by his dark side and when Luke "redeems" him, it wasn't really him that commited all his crimes and thus Anakin gets salvation. That Anakin doesn't have all the blood on his hands that his "evil" side created, that he's been saved. So what if the Dark Side of the Force has "seduced" him? The Dark Side is merely power, which is what Anakin was really desiring, and Anakin is absolutely no means unique in that he was seduced by power, it just makes him yet another monomaniac. Because of it, he became Vader, not as George Lucas advertised that Vader overthrew Anakin.

Again, this may be the case, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If the Dark Side is merely power, how can you account for the existence of places that are tangibly strong with the Dark Side, like the cave that Luke had to enter on Dagobah in TESB? All the evidence from the films suggests that the Force is something that exists independently of the individual, and that this Force has a Dark Side that can exert an influence on an idividual. Now you can't completely absolve Anakin of guilt because of this, because after all, we was susceptible to corruption by the Dark Side because of the choices he made. But again, though I am pretty much in complete agreement with you in terms of personal responsibility in the real world, it seems evident to me that in this fictional world of Star Wars, Lucas set it up so that there is an outside force that can affect a persons actions, and even control him to an extent. If that is the case, it would mitigate some of Anakin's responsibility, though not remove it entirely.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 02:26pm

Praxis wrote:Vergere explains that the dark side was part of the Jedi's philosophy. That agrees with canon, where the JEDI believe that the dark side is a part of the force. But Vergere shows that the force doesn't have a dark or light side- it's in the user. Luke was skeptical and refused to believe her at the time, but Jacen was completely shocked when he realized Vergere was right.

Again, this is EU speculation. I think it disagrees with canon. This doesn't account for how you can have physical places that are "strong with the Dark Side". If the Dark Side is just something that exists within the mind of the Force user, how can in affect a physical location independent of that individual?

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 02:29pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:I just looked it up. It's an EU character, which means that at best, it disputes, but doesn't trump other official sources that suggest that one does lose a certain amount of free will to the Dark Side. And since the remarks by Yoda, Obi Wan, and Vader, from canon sources, suggest otherwise, I'd have to say that I remain very doubtful of this assertion. In fact, the assertion that there is no real Dark Side is massively contradicted by canon sources.
No, it's canon that that the Jedi believe that the Dark Side has a certain amount of free will to it. Who said they were being objective? It is their religion, after all. However, that is not a whole lot difference than some Catholics who think that it's demons who make people do bad things.

Except again, Catholicism is a belief entirely contingent upon faith, where the Force is a verifiable reality in Star Wars. I repeat, it's clear from Vader's comments in ROTJ that he does feel a compulsion to do certain things, like obey the Emperor.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 02:42pm

Perinquus wrote:False analogy. Actual religions have one element in common - they are human created beliefs, and are not in any way shape or form testable, demonstrable, or verifiable. The Force, in Star Wars, most certainly is something more than an unverifiable belief. The Jedi and Sith can use it to acheive very real and measurable effects. In other words, there more than just belief operating here, in the Star Wars universe, the Force is real.

It's not a false analogy. The sun most certainly verifiably exists as well, but that didn't stop a bunch the Aztecs or the Egyptians from making a religion around it. Just because there is some repeatable, verifiable effect going on doesn't mean that what people say about it is true. For instance, the ancient Greeks had tons of potions, like ones made from hemlock, which had religious attached to them and still worked with precise repeatable effects. Does that mean that a hemlock potion really works as the Greeks thought it did, or is it because there is a real chemical explaination for it killing a person? Not to mention the millions and millions of Catholics who spent their lives calling what we know to day to be diseases the acts of demons. Sure there is something clearly real going on, but they are wrong about the cause.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Again, this may be the case, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If the Dark Side is merely power, how can you account for the existence of places that are tangibly strong with the Dark Side, like the cave that Luke had to enter on Dagobah in TESB? All the evidence from the films suggests that the Force is something that exists independently of the individual, and that this Force has a Dark Side that can exert an influence on an idividual. Now you can't completely absolve Anakin of guilt because of this, because after all, we was susceptible to corruption by the Dark Side because of the choices he made. But again, though I am pretty much in complete agreement with you in terms of personal responsibility in the real world, it seems evident to me that in this fictional world of Star Wars, Lucas set it up so that there is an outside force that can affect a persons actions, and even control him to an extent. If that is the case, it would mitigate some of Anakin's responsibility, though not remove it entirely.

The Sun existed independantly of Ra worshippers in Egypt too. Just because the Force exists in StarWars doesn't mean that the people who've built a religion around it are right about all it's aspects. Sure the Jedi blame the Force for controlling people and influencing, but that does not make it true. People have always made excuses like that, in order to deny responsibility. You haven't posted any evidence that the Force is actually controlling Anakin and making him do anything, only that the Jedi really really believe it.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-07 02:44pm

Perinquus wrote:Except again, Catholicism is a belief entirely contingent upon faith, where the Force is a verifiable reality in Star Wars. I repeat, it's clear from Vader's comments in ROTJ that he does feel a compulsion to do certain things, like obey the Emperor.

Yes, he most certainly does believe that he is compelled by the Dark Side to obey the Emperor. Now post evidence that what he's saying is actually true. People feel compelled to do lots of things, but it's not magical forces making them do it, it's human psychology. Read Mein Kampf to see all the things that Hitler felt compelled to do by God. However, this goes a step further. Are you really saying that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are actually seperate beings, as the movies suggest, and that Vader (IE, the Dark Side) is actively supressing Anakin (the Good side) and making him do horrible things?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-10-07 03:05pm

As the old saying goes, every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.

Sure, some, if not most of the things Vader did, where monstrous - but would the alternatives have been better?

And even if not, the only thing that matters about the redemption part is, that Vader saw the errors of his way and did at least ONE thing to make up for it.

To out-balance all his actions as Vader (not that i believe, that this is possible) he would have to have survived and go around for another thousand years just doing good deeds, but since he died it was impossible to court him (and to hear his version of every commited crime) and to come up with a punishment for his acts. Or a way, that would have allowed him to make up for his crimes.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 05:52pm

Again, this may be the case, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If the Dark Side is merely power, how can you account for the existence of places that are tangibly strong with the Dark Side, like the cave that Luke had to enter on Dagobah in TESB? All the evidence from the films suggests that the Force is something that exists independently of the individual, and that this Force has a Dark Side that can exert an influence on an idividual. Now you can't completely absolve Anakin of guilt because of this, because after all, we was susceptible to corruption by the Dark Side because of the choices he made. But again, though I am pretty much in complete agreement with you in terms of personal responsibility in the real world, it seems evident to me that in this fictional world of Star Wars, Lucas set it up so that there is an outside force that can affect a persons actions, and even control him to an extent. If that is the case, it would mitigate some of Anakin's responsibility, though not remove it entirely.

No, no, no. All evidence from the films suggest that the JEDI believe there are seperate light and dark sides. Existance of places strong with the dark side? Simple- it's an imprint of the PERSON who died there.

Again, this is EU speculation. I think it disagrees with canon.

I emphasize, YOU THINK. The canon only showed what the Jedi believe- we saw no indication they were right.

This doesn't account for how you can have physical places that are "strong with the Dark Side". If the Dark Side is just something that exists within the mind of the Force user, how can in affect a physical location independent of that individual?

When the force user dies, an imprint of his mind is left on the spot where he died. That includes his feelings, good or evil.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-07 11:03pm

I never got that impression Gil- i.e. that somehow Anakin was taken over by some external force. He was 'seduced' by the dark side, the dark side didn't invade him and possess him. It was his own doing. Nothing in any of the films indicates it was anything but his own fault, IMO. *He* killed the good man who was Anakin, noone else.

As to Vader's insistence as to the power of the Dark Side and how he must obey his Master- I see no evidence to assume that means it's not really his responsibility. Vader is talking about *power*- he wants it. The Emperor is the way to get it, one way or another- the ROTJ novelization makes that clear, for example.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-07 11:30pm

Vympel wrote:I never got that impression Gil- i.e. that somehow Anakin was taken over by some external force. He was 'seduced' by the dark side, the dark side didn't invade him and possess him. It was his own doing. Nothing in any of the films indicates it was anything but his own fault, IMO. *He* killed the good man who was Anakin, noone else.

Which makes his redemption at the end of ROTJ all the more meaningful. And he didn't 'kill' Anakin, but he did bury him under a ton of hatred. Luke gambled that Anakin was still alive, buried deep beneath the scars, the anger, and the fear. And he was right.

Vympel wrote:As to Vader's insistence as to the power of the Dark Side and how he must obey his Master- I see no evidence to assume that means it's not really his responsibility.

"I was just following orders" is not a valid defence. However, the Sith can compel others to actions, whether it be subtly or through direct control. Take that into account, and Vader's line "I must obey my master" has more relevance.

In the end, Luke's quest to "save" his father from "Vader" and give his soul redemption is utter bullshit and strips Anakin of responsibility for his crimes.

Gil, ROTJ doesn't absolve Vader of any guilt. It doesn't say "hey, redeem yourself and everything will be A-OK." Anakin turned to the good side, remember? He killed Palpatine. In doing so he died, but he died as Anakin, not as Vader. Do you think Anakin, had he survived, would NOT try to make amends? He died due to Palpatine's lightning, but what if that had missed and Anakin could still live on, albeit in the Vader suit? Do you think no-one would hold him to account?

George Lucas is busy selling a tear jerking ideal that in the end the "good" side that is Anakin lived and his soul was saved, but what good side? Anakin was a complete monster who chose his course and chose to give up his humanity.

The good side that acted to save his son from Palpatine, the bigger evil.

And he did choose to give up his humanity; he also chose, at the end, to retake it back. Why are you ignoring that side of the issue? And since when has he been a 'complete' monster? A monster yes, but a complete monster wouldn't have turned at the crucial moment like Anakin did.

He should have been responsible for his crimes and in the end, him being really honestly sorry is no excuse, yet Lucas gives him salvation because of it.

What the fuck? Anakin DIES at the end of the story, he doesn't receive salvation. Not in the form of being forgiven for all his crimes. Luke forgave him, in a sense by trying to turn him back, but Leia didn't, and most of the galaxy didn't either.

It's nonsense and immoral a message, the same sort of immorality that makes many religious people think that truly and sincerely feeling bad and asking for forgiveness some how alleviates responsiblity.

Except Anakin died before he could accept responsibility for his actions.

And it isn't immoral a message, because Anakin's CHOICE of turning back to the light is juxtaposed with his attempt to stop the suffering of a loved one. Given he died before he could be taken to account, and given that no-one appeared at his pyre except for Luke, I think it stands to reason that Anakin never received no 'forgiveness' from his victim's representatives.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-08 12:17am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Perinquus wrote:Except again, Catholicism is a belief entirely contingent upon faith, where the Force is a verifiable reality in Star Wars. I repeat, it's clear from Vader's comments in ROTJ that he does feel a compulsion to do certain things, like obey the Emperor.
Yes, he most certainly does believe that he is compelled by the Dark Side to obey the Emperor. Now post evidence that what he's saying is actually true. People feel compelled to do lots of things, but it's not magical forces making them do it, it's human psychology. Read Mein Kampf to see all the things that Hitler felt compelled to do by God. However, this goes a step further. Are you really saying that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are actually seperate beings, as the movies suggest, and that Vader (IE, the Dark Side) is actively supressing Anakin (the Good side) and making him do horrible things?

No, what makes you think I am saying that? The fact that a person's will may not be entirely his own does not mean he has actually become another person. It may simply mean that there is something driving him to so certain things which otherwise he might do - which makes him act like another person. In this case, the Dark Side might be suppressing all or most of the better aspects of Anakin's character and fueling his baser side. Obi Wan isn't even suggesting that Anakin and Vader are literally two different people. It's pretty obvious he's speaking figuratively. He clearly meant that Anakin and Vader are two different personalities. One is dominated by the Dark Side, and the other wasn't. And the whole reason he spoke in these figurative terms was so that way back in the beginning of his interactions with Luke he could avoid telling the painful truth, that his father had had become one of the most evil men in the galaxy. It didn't suit Kenobi's purpose to let Luke find that out at that point. Quite aside from a desire to shield the boy from the terrible distress that would cause, it might have made Luke shy away from learning about the Force, and he needed Luke to become a Jedi in order to help destroy the Emperor.

None of this means that Kenobi and the rest of the Jedi are somehow deceiving themselves when they speak of a Dark Side to the Force.

What I find interesting is that many statements of Vader's and of other characters do indicate that there is an actual Dark Side to the Force, and that is exerts a powerful influence over any Jedi who falls to it, and we have no reason to disbelieve these statements, yet you insist on doing so.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-10-08 12:20am

Praxis wrote:
To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.

Vegree is full of BS really. Warped by half a century with the Vong. Luke in Unifying Force rejects her analysis at least in part, that sentience gives rise to the Dark side. Nature maintains the balance but when people make their choice for evil, the Dark Side was born.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-08 12:27am

Praxis wrote:
Again, this may be the case, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If the Dark Side is merely power, how can you account for the existence of places that are tangibly strong with the Dark Side, like the cave that Luke had to enter on Dagobah in TESB? All the evidence from the films suggests that the Force is something that exists independently of the individual, and that this Force has a Dark Side that can exert an influence on an idividual. Now you can't completely absolve Anakin of guilt because of this, because after all, we was susceptible to corruption by the Dark Side because of the choices he made. But again, though I am pretty much in complete agreement with you in terms of personal responsibility in the real world, it seems evident to me that in this fictional world of Star Wars, Lucas set it up so that there is an outside force that can affect a persons actions, and even control him to an extent. If that is the case, it would mitigate some of Anakin's responsibility, though not remove it entirely.
No, no, no. All evidence from the films suggest that the JEDI believe there are seperate light and dark sides. Existance of places strong with the dark side? Simple- it's an imprint of the PERSON who died there.

And what evidence do you have for this? And why would it matter what "imprint" a person left? If Dark and Light in the Force are solely a matter of what's inside you, the Force user, why would what someone else did in a certain place make any difference at all?

Praxis wrote:
Again, this is EU speculation. I think it disagrees with canon.
I emphasize, YOU THINK. The canon only showed what the Jedi believe- we saw no indication they were right.

Actually, we did. What we saw no indication of is that they were wrong. Again, if the Dark Side is not real, how could a place be strong with it? What, if not the Dark Side, is your hypothetical dead person able to leave an imprint on that place with?

And not only do we have evidence of the Dark Side's existence from places it may reek of, there's also the fact that at the end of AOTC, Mace Windu and Yoda find their ability to use the Force diminished. The Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, they say. Now what is more likely, that all the Jedi, simultaneously, somehow begin experiencing some sort of psychological block that reduces their ability to use the Force, or that there is an outside force affecting their ability - i.e. the Dark Side?

Praxis wrote:
This doesn't account for how you can have physical places that are "strong with the Dark Side". If the Dark Side is just something that exists within the mind of the Force user, how can in affect a physical location independent of that individual?
When the force user dies, an imprint of his mind is left on the spot where he died. That includes his feelings, good or evil.

Again, what evidence do you have for this? And again, what is he leaving an imprint with? Ectoplasm? Karma?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-08 01:18am

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Praxis wrote:
To quote Vergere: "The Dark Side is in you". There is no real dark and light side- the dark and light are in the user.
Vegree is full of BS really. Warped by half a century with the Vong. Luke in Unifying Force rejects her analysis at least in part, that sentience gives rise to the Dark side. Nature maintains the balance but when people make their choice for evil, the Dark Side was born.

But Jacen accepts it in Traitor, and in The Unifying Force, following her ideas, manages to attain a new level of force abilities and smach Onimi around. So I'd say she was correct. LUKE disagreed, but how many people in here really agreed with Luke's opinion on the war (ie, "no, we can't fight, we'll all turn to the dark side if we kill the murders!")?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-08 01:25am

Perinquus wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Again, this may be the case, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If the Dark Side is merely power, how can you account for the existence of places that are tangibly strong with the Dark Side, like the cave that Luke had to enter on Dagobah in TESB? All the evidence from the films suggests that the Force is something that exists independently of the individual, and that this Force has a Dark Side that can exert an influence on an idividual. Now you can't completely absolve Anakin of guilt because of this, because after all, we was susceptible to corruption by the Dark Side because of the choices he made. But again, though I am pretty much in complete agreement with you in terms of personal responsibility in the real world, it seems evident to me that in this fictional world of Star Wars, Lucas set it up so that there is an outside force that can affect a persons actions, and even control him to an extent. If that is the case, it would mitigate some of Anakin's responsibility, though not remove it entirely.
No, no, no. All evidence from the films suggest that the JEDI believe there are seperate light and dark sides. Existance of places strong with the dark side? Simple- it's an imprint of the PERSON who died there.
And what evidence do you have for this? And why would it matter what "imprint" a person left? If Dark and Light in the Force are solely a matter of what's inside you, the Force user, why would what someone else did in a certain place make any difference at all?

The Force remains in the person, which explains the imprint of his presence. When Leia passed through the spot the Emperor died over Endor, she sensed the cold darkness that was in his heart and blacked out. We also know the cave of the dark side was that way because a dark Jedi DIED there. That is more evidence that an imprint is left on the user. Especially because Leia could sense the Emperor's feelings. And the greatest proof- Exar Kun. By drawing enough power from the Force and the Massassi, he was able to anchor his entire CONSCIOUSNESS to Yavin 4, and was still there 4,000 years later, alive and well, his body long disintegrated.

Praxis wrote:
Again, this is EU speculation. I think it disagrees with canon.
I emphasize, YOU THINK. The canon only showed what the Jedi believe- we saw no indication they were right.
Actually, we did. What we saw no indication of is that they were wrong. Again, if the Dark Side is not real, how could a place be strong with it? What, if not the Dark Side, is your hypothetical dead person able to leave an imprint on that place with?

His feelings, personality. These so-called "places that reek of it" are actually places where DARK JEDI DIED. This works for my imprint theory.

And not only do we have evidence of the Dark Side's existence from places it may reek of, there's also the fact that at the end of AOTC, Mace Windu and Yoda find their ability to use the Force diminished. The Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, they say. Now what is more likely, that all the Jedi, simultaneously, somehow begin experiencing some sort of psychological block that reduces their ability to use the Force, or that there is an outside force affecting their ability - i.e. the Dark Side?

Or, ie, Darth Sidious? The Sith was blocking their senses, making it difficult for them to figure out who the dark jedi was. PALPATINE was blocking their senses.

Praxis wrote:
This doesn't account for how you can have physical places that are "strong with the Dark Side". If the Dark Side is just something that exists within the mind of the Force user, how can in affect a physical location independent of that individual?
When the force user dies, an imprint of his mind is left on the spot where he died. That includes his feelings, good or evil.
Again, what evidence do you have for this? And again, what is he leaving an imprint with? Ectoplasm? Karma?

His presence, emotion, and personality. The Emperor's hate was sensed by Leia, for example.