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 Post subject: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:05pm
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Pathological liar

Joined: 2004-01-28 09:19pm
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Location: Crystal Lake Il.
Hello, I am Stewart and rellitivly new to the online world. I found this site last week and was fasinated enough to join. Please excuse my spelling and gramar as my dyslexia has ruened my life on more than one ocasion.

My background and expertise. Twenty years in Government service, beguinning in the Army Security Agency/SOD, becomming an "independant contractor" ending as Dean of Technology at the Stratigic Defense Institute, with a second in Weapons Systems annalysiss.

First the rules;
1. There are so many stupid/contradictory/defects in all the settings that only the best item that you want to use counts. (I.E. if it does something fast there but slow someplace else and you want fast, then it's fast.) There are an infanite number of reasons why they might choose to go slow in the above example. The "contradictions" have reasons, we just do not know why the are.
2. If you must choose between a visual and some other source like a book, then the movie/TV show wins.
3. Ignore production values, scale and scope of the story. They muddel the issues and cloud judgement. You can always make it better, bigger or different if you want.
4. Anything that is possable now but seems to "dissapier" in the "future" is still there, it's just so well intigrated that it becomes invisable or there is some "unexplained" need for it to work in some other fasion.
5. The most likely asumption is the best. Collorary; the simplest solution is the right one. The more convoluted the explination must be the less likely it is the right one.

Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars.

This fact is based on the following points of logic.

1. Star Trek has demonstraited the following technologies that are not seen in Star Wars, therefore, it is more advanced. (In the entire history of the world, no technology has ever been compleatly lost) FTL Combat, Faster transit speeds, Transporters, Replicators, Time Travel, E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M. and Sensors/Scanners that are thousands/millions/ billions of times more accurate/sencitive than their SW counter parts.

2. Since technology spreads threwout a civilisation, everything in that system will be better because of it. Look what the Space Program did for this country. There is no time in the history of this planet that technology has not spread as fast as the communication mode would alow.

3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios. Furthermore, the effective differance between generations of technology is at least two orders of magnatude. Barring failure to utilise it correctly, the following examples are furnished; Korean war jets Vs. WW-II planes, Viet Nam erra planes Vs. Korean types, Gulf War Vs. RVN types, Etc. You can check this your self by using A flight sim game on your computer. I was able to kill almost 900 WW-II planes of all types in an afternoon of console time infront of witnesses and against both machine and human Air Force Pilots who made their living fliing F-15's at the time. All without a scratch on my shiny new F-86H or Mig-15. The F-22 is so good that the Air Force thinks that they will only need 48 of them and their support systems to defeet any other air force on the planet. Thats right 48 Vs. the red air force of 20,000 planes or the British/French/German sales to the third world.

The above has nothing to due with the value of the fantacy or expiriance depicted in the movies or TV shows. Just an unfortunate choice of plot mechanisms neccessary to put on a one hour TV show every week verses those in a two hour movie by writers on both sides who did not have a clue how things worked or why someone would do that. That there are +600 hours of source matirial on one side and +-10 hours on the other makes it very hard to find parity.

I have writen a game that is usable in any setting and does not have to use "special" rules to make things work like you've seen on the screen. Play testers have told me that it works and that shorn of plot elements they can beat the writers every time. That game opperates under the above rules and ST beats SW every time when the players can do anything they want that they have seen on the screen.

Your comments are well come. Sincerely, Stewart.



Stratigic Defense Instatute, We provide Elegant Solutions to your Insolvable Problems.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:17pm
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Mammy Two-Shoes
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I suggest that you finish reading the site. All of it.



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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:18pm
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Stewart at SDI wrote:
1. Star Trek has demonstraited the following technologies that are not seen in Star Wars, therefore, it is more advanced. (In the entire history of the world, no technology has ever been compleatly lost)
FTL Combat

Never done since TOS... and never done while the speed difference was higher than a few 100 km/s.

Quote:
Faster transit speeds

Name a number of races in SW that can travel their whole galaxy in days ! ( the millenium falcon can do this for example ).

Quote:
Transporters

True
Quote:
Replicators

SW use this for large scale applications ( ship building, house construction on Coruscant, ect. )
Quote:
Time Travel

Some SciFi universes don't contain timetravel.
Quote:
E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M

Always used in SW, nearly never used in ST.
Quote:
Sensors/Scanners that are thousands/millions/ billions of times more accurate/sencitive than their SW counter parts.

Would you please give us something more that just stating bullshit ? Maybe an example ?

Maybe you should read the website again, especially this part: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html and this this part http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/index.html



Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:20pm
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It's Enabran_Tain v2.0!! :shock: :shock: :P



What's her bust size!?

It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:22pm
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Mammy Two-Shoes
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What's "E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M," by the way?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:23pm
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Never confuse time travel with proof techonological advancement

It will and always remains a get out of jail free card rather than anything useful either militariley or commercialy, unless of course one wants to go back a few million/billion years to seed a world with the precurses for Diamonds or Gold or Platnium or whatnot, but considering atom by atom manipulation is easier
(Heck we can do that nowadays just in increably small amounts with increably high power costs)

Time will and remains a get out of jail free card for plots rather than anything useful




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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:24pm
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Quote:
What's "E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M," by the way?


I'm guessing Electronic Warfare, Electronic Countermeasures and Electronic Counter-Countermeasures

But to be more exact considering that ST sensors(At least those used for Transport) can be blocked by the EM field of your avarage everyday TRANSFORMER..... Well if you can see it you can kill it but if turning on the local power grid makes you go blind even twenty, thirty year old methods of jamming should do you just fine




"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:27pm
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Mammy Two-Shoes
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Besides, SW does have technology that manipulates time, such as stasis fields and equipment that rugulates the passage of time on ships traveling though Hyperspace so it's synchronised with the rest of the Universe.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:34pm
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IIRC Imperial Star Destroyers DO use Electronic Counter Measures.

I can't remember the exact quote but when Luke is up against the Chimera in the 1st book of the HttE trilogy he fired his torpedo cold to "negate the Star Destroyers impressive array of jamming features" or something to that approximation.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:40pm
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Now the onto your creditionals
Quote:
Army Security Agency/SOD, becomming an "independant contractor" ending as Dean of Technology at the Stratigic Defense Institute, with a second in Weapons Systems annalysiss.

Ok five simple validation questions

Question one
Did you accept a postion with SDI after becoming Dean?

Question Two
What was your Gov pay scale? Even as a contrator your give a payscale equivlant, though you not getting paid Y you still treated with responsiblitys of Y as far as contractors go

Question Three
How orgionaly did you enter SDI? Traditionaly Army/Marines are only liasons to the Intel side of the house

Question Four
What Company's did you work with as an Independant contractor? IE who payed the bills and who got you into the building?

Question Five
Were you military who went Civilian? or Civilian all the way?




"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:45pm
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Does anyone think we will see this troll again ?



Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:46pm
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Mammy Two-Shoes
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Geeze, give him time. It hasn't even been an hour.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 09:49pm
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I'd give him a week. I'm usually good at 1st impressions and this guys screams bullshitter.



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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 10:11pm
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Lord of the Spam
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Stewart at SDI wrote:
Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars.


Heard dozens of times, rebutted even more.

Quote:
This fact is based on the following points of logic.

1. Star Trek has demonstraited the following technologies that are not seen in Star Wars, therefore, it is more advanced. (In the entire history of the world, no technology has ever been compleatly lost) FTL Combat, Faster transit speeds, Transporters, Replicators, Time Travel, E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M. and Sensors/Scanners that are thousands/millions/ billions of times more accurate/sencitive than their SW counter parts.


FTL Combat: ST has never really demonstrated this at any major relative velocities.

Faster Transit Speeds: It took Voyager years to cross the galaxy even with the plot-devices of the week, yet it took the Millenium Falcon only a day or two.

Transporters: True, but it won't matter much militarilly due to almost anything stopping transporters from working.

Replicators: Have been proven to exist in SW at large scale only though.

Time Travel: Never been used often in ST except as a plot of the week.

ECM: Used constantly in SW, just watch ROTJ when they have to pull up before hitting the shield because their sensors are blocked (and in the Bike Chase), besides I've never seen it used more then a couple times in ST.

Sensors: Proof that they are more accurate?

Quote:
2. Since technology spreads threwout a civilisation, everything in that system will be better because of it. Look what the Space Program did for this country. There is no time in the history of this planet that technology has not spread as fast as the communication mode would alow.


Debatable that the space program did anything, but still proof that this would change matters at all?

Quote:
3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios. Furthermore, the effective differance between generations of technology is at least two orders of magnatude. Barring failure to utilise it correctly, the following examples are furnished; Korean war jets Vs. WW-II planes, Viet Nam erra planes Vs. Korean types, Gulf War Vs. RVN types, Etc. You can check this your self by using A flight sim game on your computer. I was able to kill almost 900 WW-II planes of all types in an afternoon of console time infront of witnesses and against both machine and human Air Force Pilots who made their living fliing F-15's at the time. All without a scratch on my shiny new F-86H or Mig-15. The F-22 is so good that the Air Force thinks that they will only need 48 of them and their support systems to defeet any other air force on the planet. Thats right 48 Vs. the red air force of 20,000 planes or the British/French/German sales to the third world.


Works, thanks for proving the point though. SW weapons put up weapons outputs in the multi GIGA-ton level, ST ships put out megaton level damages at best. Hence according to your idea one Star Destroyer would completley whipe out the Feddies's fleet.

Quote:
The above has nothing to due with the value of the fantacy or expiriance depicted in the movies or TV shows. Just an unfortunate choice of plot mechanisms neccessary to put on a one hour TV show every week verses those in a two hour movie by writers on both sides who did not have a clue how things worked or why someone would do that. That there are +600 hours of source matirial on one side and +-10 hours on the other makes it very hard to find parity.


Except Star Trek ships have NEVER EVER shown multi-gigaton level weapon output. Have never show the ability to consistantly travel at the speeds that the Millenium Falcon could, and thus are doomed to lose to the empire.

Quote:
I have writen a game that is usable in any setting and does not have to use "special" rules to make things work like you've seen on the screen. Play testers have told me that it works and that shorn of plot elements they can beat the writers every time. That game opperates under the above rules and ST beats SW every time when the players can do anything they want that they have seen on the screen.


I could write a game (well, after I learnt how to program) that would set it up so that cavemen would beat the US army every time, so what?

Here, Read This: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/index.html and come back in the morning.



"My annoyance is exacerbated by the fact that the suffering I am witnessing now cannot exist on its own, it has to fall into the hierarchy of a “lesser animal suffering.” In the made-for-TV reality of American culture, the only acceptable genocide is historical. It’s comforting—it’s over. Twenty million murdered humans deserve to be more than a reference point. I am annoyed that I don’t have more power in communicating what I’ve seen apart from stuttering: “It’s like the Holocaust” " - Susan Coe

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 10:25pm
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In fact, this makes the entire thread purposeless.



"My annoyance is exacerbated by the fact that the suffering I am witnessing now cannot exist on its own, it has to fall into the hierarchy of a “lesser animal suffering.” In the made-for-TV reality of American culture, the only acceptable genocide is historical. It’s comforting—it’s over. Twenty million murdered humans deserve to be more than a reference point. I am annoyed that I don’t have more power in communicating what I’ve seen apart from stuttering: “It’s like the Holocaust” " - Susan Coe

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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 10:40pm
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Stewart at SDI wrote:
3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios.

Can you say Vi-et-nam?



"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman

"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman

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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 11:02pm
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GySgt. Hartman wrote:
Stewart at SDI wrote:
3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios.

Can you say Vi-et-nam?


Some in the US, however, would claim that they won every single TACTICAL battle. THey just lost because they didn't have the will to keep losing the men even victories in tactical battles are giving them.

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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-01-31 11:51pm
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Stewart at SDI wrote:
First the rules;
1. There are so many stupid/contradictory/defects in all the settings that only the best item that you want to use counts. (I.E. if it does something fast there but slow someplace else and you want fast, then it's fast.) There are an infanite number of reasons why they might choose to go slow in the above example. The "contradictions" have reasons, we just do not know why the are.

By this reasoning, the DS9 wormhole means that all Fed ships can cover 70,000 light years in seconds. There are just as often extenuating circumstances for high speeds as low speeds; you are assuming that there can be extenuating circumstances for low speeds but not for high speeds.
Quote:
2. If you must choose between a visual and some other source like a book, then the movie/TV show wins.
3. Ignore production values, scale and scope of the story. They muddel the issues and cloud judgement. You can always make it better, bigger or different if you want.
4. Anything that is possable now but seems to "dissapier" in the "future" is still there, it's just so well intigrated that it becomes invisable or there is some "unexplained" need for it to work in some other fasion.

Except that in Trek's case, this is disproven by observation. Numerous sentient robots exist in TOS Trek, yet Data is considered a remarkable phenomenon a century later in TNG.
Quote:
5. The most likely asumption is the best. Collorary; the simplest solution is the right one. The more convoluted the explination must be the less likely it is the right one.

Fair enough.
Quote:
Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars.

By this, do you mean "The major Alpha Quadrant power", or do you mean "everything in Star Trek including the Q?" I take it you mean "The major Alpha Quadrant powers".
Quote:
This fact is based on the following points of logic.

1. Star Trek has demonstraited the following technologies that are not seen in Star Wars, therefore, it is more advanced.

I notice you ignore the technologies Star Wars has which Star Trek does not, such as mass-produced inexpensive sentient droids with modular body parts that can self-seal together, hyperdrive, and lightsabres.
Quote:
(In the entire history of the world, no technology has ever been compleatly lost) FTL Combat, Faster transit speeds, Transporters, Replicators, Time Travel, E.W./ E.C.M. / E.C.C.M. and Sensors/Scanners that are thousands/millions/ billions of times more accurate/sencitive than their SW counter parts.

Wrong, wrong, right, right, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

FTL combat is a myth; they only fight at warp when both ships are at warp, at similar velocities. "Warp-strafing" involves approaching at warp but dropping to sublight to fire before speeding away at warp again.

Hyperdrive is far faster than warp drive. If you disagree, explain why it took years for Janeway to get home.

Transporters and replicators exist in ST but not in SW. So what?

Time travel is not a technology; it is a trick which they occasionally do, usually with a slingshot effect. Most of the time, there are extenuating circumstances or external forces involved; a hull contaminated with "chroniton particles", an Orb of the Prophets, hitching a ride behind a Borg sphere, etc. And there is ample evidence that they merely jump into parallel timelines when they do this, rather than creating a grandfather paradox and altering the timeline they originated from.

As for the EW/ECM/ECCM, you'd be hard-pressed to beat distortion jammers so powerful that they warp the fabric of spacetime itself, or a galactic star-tracking system which can determine in real-time that the gravitational silhouette of a star tens of thousands of light years away is still present after it has been deleted from the records.
Quote:
3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios.

That depends on the type of superiority involved. An advantage in speed, armour, and firepower is much more useful in war than, say, superior food service technologies. Do you believe that Japan's technological prowess would have allowed it to defeat the USSR at the peak of its power?



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"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Last edited by Darth Wong on 2004-01-31 11:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-01-31 11:52pm
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Bile-Driven Hate Machine
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To summarize:
  • I'm dyslexic.
  • I'm a weapon systems analyst.
  • Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars because Star Trek has more whiz-band, neafty-neato technologies than Star Wars.
  • I wrote a program that does not include any kind of quantifications of the abilities of either, and is instead based on some weird system of rules that I made up arbitrarily, and Star Trek always wins in that program.
  • I must be right.
I seriously hope that you don't do any kind of critical work for the government, because for an "analyst," your skills at analysis are piss-poor and border on non-existence.

I've written a program, too. Here's the source code.
Code:
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main ()
{
        // Declare weapon yields in tons of TNT.
        double federationWeaponYield = 6.4e7;
        double empireWeaponYield = 2.0e11;

        if (federationWeaponYield > empireWeaponYield)
                printf ("Federation wins.");
        else
                printf ("Empire wins.");

        system ("read");

        return 0;
}


Incredibly enough, the Empire wins every time.



Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
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 Post subject: Re: The technology level question answered. PostPosted: 2004-02-01 12:07am
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Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
GySgt. Hartman wrote:
Stewart at SDI wrote:
3. Threwout history, the side with the supirior technology won irregardless of the force ratios.

Can you say Vi-et-nam?


Some in the US, however, would claim that they won every single TACTICAL battle. THey just lost because they didn't have the will to keep losing the men even victories in tactical battles are giving them.


Actually, the will of the people was never there. To continue in Vietnam would have been political suicide.

However, I've only heard that the US won every major battle I doubt that includes every tactical battle. Fifty-eight thousand US dead compared to nearly one million NV soldiers is very telling. Vietnam was simply a political defeat for the US, not a military defeat. The US didn't leave because the enemy pushed us out, we left because we didn't want to be there any longer.

Anyway, I apologize for going off topic.

Stewart, read the site. Thus far people are being very nice to you but if you continue along this path that will soon change in a very unpleasant way.



Milites Astrum Exterminans

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-02-01 12:40am
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Didn't we just have a guy like this a couple days ago? :roll:



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-02-01 01:14am
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Durandal wrote:
To summarize:
  • I'm dyslexic.
  • I'm a weapon systems analyst.
  • Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars because Star Trek has more whiz-band, neafty-neato technologies than Star Wars.
  • I wrote a program that does not include any kind of quantifications of the abilities of either, and is instead based on some weird system of rules that I made up arbitrarily, and Star Trek always wins in that program.
  • I must be right.
I seriously hope that you don't do any kind of critical work for the government, because for an "analyst," your skills at analysis are piss-poor and border on non-existence.

I've written a program, too. Here's the source code.
Code:
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main ()
{
        // Declare weapon yields in tons of TNT.
        double federationWeaponYield = 6.4e7;
        double empireWeaponYield = 2.0e11;

        if (federationWeaponYield > empireWeaponYield)
                printf ("Federation wins.");
        else
                printf ("Empire wins.");

        system ("read");

        return 0;
}



I forget, how big can a double get in java before it rolls over?

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-02-01 01:23am
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Emperor's Hand
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Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Posts: 7438
Location: Kweh?!
That isn't Java, it's C.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-02-01 01:48am
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Sith Devotee
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Joined: 2002-09-09 05:08am
Posts: 3432
Location: The Lizard Lounge
Andrew J. wrote:
Didn't we just have a guy like this a couple days ago? :roll:


Yep. And this one doesn't impress me either...



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DILLIGAF: Does It Look Like I Give A Fuck

Kill your God!

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2004-02-01 02:15am
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Bile-Driven Hate Machine
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Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
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Location: Silicon Valley, CA
The Kernel wrote:
That isn't Java, it's C.


Ah, but is it C, or is it, in fact, C++? I shall leave you to wrestle with that question. :)



Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion

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