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 Post subject: Isaac Bishop Junior (aka Virus-X) PostPosted: 2003-11-16 06:10pm
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In an effort to catch this evasive little turd, I challenged him via E-mail on Friday:
Quote:
OK, if you're this "Virus X" character, I hear that you've been trash-talking me for a long time. Now's your chance to debate me directly. Please identify yourself (Virus X is not a real name, the last time I checked) and send me the arguments with which you have supposedly destroyed my claims regarding the Death Star, Imperial firepower, etc.

He responded on Saturday (I had accidentally sent the E-mail from my wife's identity, so the return line said "Rebecca Wong"):
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And you are, Rebecca? I don't know anybody by that name, nor have I seen any materials by anyone by that name. As for my identity, it's never been a secret. If you've my e-mail, you know that my real name always comes through, and that both my MSN and Yahoo profiles have my real name. Therefore, you know full well that I am Isaac Bishop Junior.

And as for trash talking, if stating that just because Michael Wong say something that I don't automatically believe it's true is trash talk, so be it. If stating that it's stupid to talk down to people just because you think you're smarter than they are since you have a piece of paper called a degree is trash talk, ok. If standing up and disagreeing with the practice of saying that those that fail to fall into Michael Wong's line are intellectually inferior, ok, you got me, again. If thinking that it's stupid to denegrate someone because they don't understand what I call "dumbed down" physics, hey, you've got my number. Last, but certainly not least, at least I'm not of poor enough breeding to launch websites bashing other peoples' theological beliefs. My best friends are practicing witches, athiests, Hindus, Muslims, etc., and all are intelligent and of good enough upbringing enough to never attempt to insult people based on their faith, regardless of any so-called bad past experiences, and they're mature enough to not hold everyone responsible for the actions of 1 or 2.

Then, at least I'm not the type to call someone a "gutless coward" a thousand miles away on the Internet, then try to cover my tracks by saying any threat of retaliation against this ignorant type of personal attack is beneath them, in order to make the person that was insulted look like the guilty party. If you see Michael Wong, you can tell him I said all this, too, if it'll make you happy, Rebecca.

I responded thusly:
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Isaac Bishop Junior wrote:
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And you are, Rebecca? I don't know anybody by that name, nor have I seen any materials by anyone by that name. As for my identity, it's never been a secret. If you've my e-mail, you know that my real name always comes through, and that both my MSN and Yahoo profiles have my real name. Therefore, you know full well that I am Isaac Bishop Junior.

Sorry, that was accidentally sent from my wife's mail client.
Quote:
And as for trash talking, if stating that just because /Michael/ Wong say something that I don't automatically believe it's true is trash talk, so be it. If stating that it's stupid to talk down to people just because you think you're smarter than they are since you have a piece of paper called a degree is trash talk, ok. If standing up and disagreeing with the practice of saying that those that fail to fall into Michael Wong's line are intellectually inferior, ok, you got me, again. If thinking that it's stupid to denegrate someone because they don't understand what I call "dumbed down" physics, hey, you've got my number. Last, but certainly not least, at least I'm not of poor enough breeding to launch websites bashing other peoples' theological beliefs.

Interesting. So you think that any criticism of religion automatically makes you an inferior race, eh?
Quote:
My best friends are practicing witches, athiests, Hindus, Muslims, etc., and all are intelligent and of good enough upbringing enough to never attempt to insult people based on their faith, regardless of any so-called bad past experiences, and they're mature enough to not hold everyone responsible for the actions of 1 or 2.

I insult the faith, not all of the people who have been misled into following it. Hate Christianity, not the Christian.
Quote:
Then, at least I'm not the type to call someone a "gutless coward" a thousand miles away on the Internet, then try to cover my tracks by saying any threat of retaliation against this ignorant type of personal attack is beneath them, in order to make the person that was insulted look like the guilty party. If you see Michael Wong, you can tell him I said all this, too, if it'll make you happy, Rebecca.

Sorry, you're still a gutless coward. You were challenged to debate me, and you continue to trash talk but you do not accept the challenge. I'll give you another chance: grow a pair of balls and debate me. You can debate me on theology or you can debate me on sci-fi; it doesn't matter. You obviously know you have no argument on either subject, so you resort to attacking the messenger by saying he should be more respectful of other peoples' ignorance. Gee, I've never seen THAT approach before ...



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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 06:14pm
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He responded this morning:
Quote:
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Sorry, that was accidentally sent from my wife's mail client.

Ok, accidents do happen. No biggie.
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Interesting. So you think that any criticism of religion automatically makes you an inferior race, eh?

No, actually I think it makes you an inferior person. I couldn't care less about your race, or what you think of mine. I'm Goth, and in that circle, we've neither time nor tolerance for that sort of mindset, and don't deal with that class of person, period, even if they're family. As Jessie Ventura once was stupid enough to say while in public office: "Religion is a sham, and a crutch for the weak-minded". I think that racism and predjudice are shams, an crutches for the weak-minded, including Jessie. I've got better things to do, than engage in it, so I don't.
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I insult the faith, not all of the people who have been misled into following it. Hate Christianity, not the Christian.

Then maybe you should grow up and experience more of the world and real life. Most people that are serious about their commitments to their faiths consider themselves indistinguishable from them. An insult against Jesus Christ, for instance, offends me on a person level, and I'm not very likely to stay quiet about it. In fact, I don't. The closer friend of mine that is a practicing witch does not take very kindly to those that are stupid and boorish enough to insult her faith, and is a lot more vocal about it, than I ever will be. While I don't look down on athiests, I won't be looked down upon by them, either, because I see nothing superior about them in any way, shape or form, over myself, or any other person of faith. In fact, if you want to be technical, athiesm is a sin, so, as Christians say, hate the sin, love the sinner.
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Sorry, you're still a gutless coward. You were challenged to debate me, and you continue to trash talk but you do not accept the challenge. I'll give you another chance: grow a pair of balls and debate me. You can debate me on theology or you can debate me on sci-fi; it doesn't matter. You obviously know you have no argument on either subject, so you resort to attacking the messenger by saying he should be more respectful of other peoples' ignorance. Gee, I've never seen THAT approach before ...

And I'm sorry you're just an ignorant 2-year old that doesn't know anything about Life, the Universe and Everything. Go read a book, or something. As I've already stated, as time permits, sure, I'll debate with you and I'll keep it level and cool, though I doubt you'll be able to, because you haven't demonstrated such an ability, to date. I do believe I've already stated that I'm working like a draft horse, and simultaneously working on a website. Like yours, it'll have a section dedicated to responses, and you're more than welcome to go there and register your doubtlessly innumerable complaints, but, as I'm sure you didn't air the content of your website prior to it's publication, I won't either. I'm sure you know what websites I've been to, and left topics on. If you choose not to go there and speak out like everyone else, that's your problem, and you're left with no other option than to shut up and wait. And, quite frankly, I did e-mail you once before, a long time ago, in response to a point you'd posed, complete with an article written by an accredited source refuting your point. You never answered, and I assumed that it was because of what your website had posted right across the top: 'Due to the volume of e-mails, it would be impossible to answer or even see them all, especially coupled with such things as the demands of a professional and private life'. I assumed that had been what happened, and didn't run around saying ignorant things like:
Quote:
"Sorry, you're still a gutless coward. You were challenged to debate me, and you continue to trash talk but you do not accept the challenge."

Believe me, I've been warned in advance that that's your standard fare, and that's how you conduct things, so I'm not surprised. Oh, well.

If you want to debate me on theology, all you've got to do is ask a question or pose an actual point, and, once again, when I'm able to return to downtime and stop working, I'll answer, just as I have, now. I'm not pretending that I'll change your mind, because, quite frankly, the closed-minded are incapable of change or positive spiritual evolution. All I do is answer questions, as I have the answers to provide, or find those that do have them. Plain and simple, dude.

I responded thusly:
Quote:
Isaac Bishop Junior wrote:
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Sorry, that was accidentally sent from my wife's mail client.

Ok, accidents do happen. No biggie.
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Interesting. So you think that any criticism of religion automatically makes you an inferior race, eh?

No, actually I think it makes /you/ an inferior /person/.

Wow, so instead of refuting those criticisms, you simply whine that whoever made them must be an inferior person. Lovely logic.
Quote:
I couldn't care less about your race, or what you think of mine. I'm Goth, and in that circle, we've neither time nor tolerance for that sort of mindset, and don't deal with that class of person, period, even if they're family.

In other words, you have no actual rebuttal to the argument, so you simply hate the person who made it. No problem, I can see why you would want to react that way if you run into an argument you can't handle.
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As Jessie Ventura once was stupid enough to say while in public office: "Religion is a sham, and a crutch for the weak-minded". I think that racism and predjudice are shams, an crutches for the weak-minded, including Jessie. I've got better things to do, than engage in it, so I don't.

Yes yes, attack anyone who says something you disagree with, rather than addressing his criticism directly. Not a new tactic, I'm afraid.
Quote:
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I insult the faith, not all of the people who have been misled into following it. Hate Christianity, not the Christian.

Then maybe you should grow up and experience more of the world and real life. Most people that are serious about their commitments to their faiths consider themselves indistinguishable from them. An insult against Jesus Christ, for instance, offends me on a person level, and I'm not very likely to stay quiet about it. In fact, I don't.

Then why don't you address the criticism, instead of rabidly attacking the messenger?
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The closer friend of mine that is a practicing witch does not take very kindly to those that are stupid and boorish enough to insult her faith, and is a /lot/ more vocal about it, than I ever will be.

Do you EVER get tired of insulting people for making arguments you can't handle?
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While I don't look down on athiests, I won't be looked down upon by them, either, because I see nothing superior about them in any way, shape or form, over myself, or any other person of faith.

This is not about "looking down" on people; it is about criticising a morally and intellectually bankrupt system of thought.
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In fact, if you want to be technical, athiesm is a sin, so, as Christians say, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Prove that atheism is a sin.
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Sorry, you're still a gutless coward. You were challenged to debate me, and you continue to trash talk but you do not accept the challenge. I'll give you another chance: grow a pair of balls and debate me. You can debate me on theology or you can debate me on sci-fi; it doesn't matter. You obviously know you have no argument on either subject, so you resort to attacking the messenger by saying he should be more respectful of other peoples' ignorance. Gee, I've never seen THAT approach before ...

And I'm sorry you're just an ignorant 2-year old that doesn't know anything about Life, the Universe and Everything. Go read a book, or something. As I've already stated, as time permits, sure, I'll debate with you and I'll keep it level and cool, though I doubt you'll be able to, because you haven't demonstrated such an ability, to date.

Oh right, this comes from the person whose entire correspondence with me has been filled with accusations about my "inferior breeding", my "class of person", wild-eyed ranting about how I'm "stupid and boorish" for daring to run over your favourite sacred cow, etc. I guess the phrase "throwing stones from a glass house" has never occurred to you before, eh?
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I do believe I've already stated that I'm working like a draft horse, and simultaneously working on a website. Like yours, it'll have a section dedicated to responses, and you're more than welcome to go there and register your doubtlessly innumerable complaints, but, as I'm sure you didn't air the content of your website prior to it's publication, I won't either. I'm sure you know what websites I've been to, and left topics on. If you choose not to go there and speak out like everyone else, that's your problem, and you're left with no other option than to shut up and wait. And, quite frankly, I did e-mail you once before, a long time ago, in response to a point you'd posed, complete with an article written by an accredited source refuting your point. You never answered, and I assumed that it was because of what your website had posted right across the top: 'Due to the volume of e-mails, it would be impossible to answer or even see them all, especially coupled with such things as the demands of a professional and private life'. I assumed that had been what happened, and didn't run around saying ignorant things like:
Quote:
"Sorry, you're still a gutless coward. You were challenged to debate me, and you continue to trash talk but you do not accept the challenge."

Believe me, I've been warned in advance that that's your standard fare, and that's how you conduct things, so I'm not surprised. Oh, well.

(yawn) yet more attempts to attack me and make excuses for your cowardice, in lieu of answering my challenge to back up your tough talk, eh? Don't tell me to waste my time chasing you around to all of the places you might choose to visit on the Internet, or asking me to speculate about websites which don't exist and which you promise to write someday. And do not pretend that you have no more obligation to answer me than I have to answer you; I have never bothered attacking you anywhere, while you have been attacking me personally BY NAME in various places around the Internet for quite a while now. The obligation is YOURS to respond when I challenge you to back up your loudmouth insults.
Quote:
If you want to debate me on theology, all you've got to do is ask a question or pose an actual point, and, once again, when I'm able to return to downtime and stop working, I'll answer, just as I have, now.

I have already posed an actual point; many of them, in fact. They're all on my website. According to YOU, my points are apparently so weak that to merely make them proves I must be "stupid and boorish". You have made a unilateral accusation against me. The onus is on YOU to either back up your shit or concede.
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I'm not pretending that I'll change your mind, because, quite frankly, the closed-minded are incapable of change or positive spiritual evolution. All I do is answer questions, as I have the answers to provide, or find those that do have them. Plain and simple, dude.

You spend a lot of time talking about how my arguments are all wrong; now back it up. You want me to make the first argument? Fine.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism

Your turn.

I also sent an addendum:
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Also:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire

Once again: your turn.

Notice how he's basically doing everything in his power to evade the debate, while making it seem as if he's something other than a gutless coward.



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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 06:20pm
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That's one deep bullshit pool



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— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 06:38pm
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Quote:
In an effort to catch this evasive little turd, I challenged him via E-mail on Friday


Has he been hounding you or something?



Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 06:49pm
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BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Quote:
In an effort to catch this evasive little turd, I challenged him via E-mail on Friday


Has he been hounding you or something?


He's been refusing to debate Mike for a couple of days, now, even though Mike sent him the e-mails listed above and even though numerous posters on a web-board frequented by Virus-X have challenged him to hold a debate with Mike. The guy ran around over there for some time (as, in fact, he does with most of his arguments) and generally made himself hard to pin down and fight.

Good luck catching the guy, Mike.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 07:12pm
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He just proved himself to be a gutless coward. He refused to contact you and when you actually take the effort to contact him, he cant even get his fucking shit together and speak all those arguments he thinks so heavully wreck your site Mike.

Fucking sad i just say.



"The ones they built at the height of nuclear weapons could knock the earth out of its orbit" - Physics expert Envy in reference to the hydrogen bombs built during the cold war.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 10:43pm
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You might point out to him, Mr. Wong, that if he desires to be so zealous a Christian, he might consider the example of Christ, Who very specifically commanded His followers to turn the other cheek and Who never so much as uttered a harsh word against the Roman soldiers who mocked, flogged, and crucified Him. In fact, St. Michael the Archangel never so much as "pronounced a reviling judgment" upon Satan himself (Jude 1: 9). Belligerence is not an appropriate Christian response to an atheist's argument (any more than it would be appropriate vice versa).

PUBLIUS



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 10:50pm
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He responded again, with yet more excuses for avoiding the argument that he won't admit he started, via his endless flames directed against me:
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Wow, so instead of refuting those criticisms, you simply whine that whoever made them must be an inferior person. Lovely logic.

Dude, in case you didn't quite read the entirty of the last e-mail, there are other things to do, besides answer whining e-mails bemoaning the fact that you're prejudiced. Shut up and get over yourself, I'm busy. If you've got a question to ask, ask it. Otherwise, find something else to do; I know I have.
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In other words, you have no actual rebuttal to the argument, so you simply hate the person who made it. No problem, I can see why you would want to react that way if you run into an argument you can't handle.

No, in other words, I just don't like you, because you're prejudiced, and I don't like any bigots, no matter who they are. Again, read the previous paragraph. I'm not arguing your stupid bigotry, and you certainly haven't said anything intelligent to justify it (not that you could, because there is no justification for bigotry) for me to respond to.
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Yes yes, attack anyone who says something you disagree with, rather than addressing his criticism directly. Not a new tactic, I'm afraid.

Yawn. Whatever guy. As for attacking those you don't agree with, I'll remember that the next time I read about you and Darkstar.
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Then why don't you address the criticism, instead of rabidly attacking the messenger?

Tell me why I should even bother adressing bigots, in the first place? I really couldn't care less if you live a bigoted life and a bigoted family. Just don't bring that garbage to me, or mine. We don't tolerate it. When we see racists and other bigots, we turn our heads and walk away from them. They merit little else. As for my 'rabid' attack on Ventura, if that's what you call 'rabid', you really need to get out more.
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Do you EVER get tired of insulting people for making arguments you can't handle?

Do you ever get tired of waking up every morning and realizing you're a bigot? Do you ever get tired of making stupid attempts to provoke pointless arguments? Probably not; hence, you're still an instigating bigot.
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This is not about "looking down" on people; it is about criticising a morally and intellectually bankrupt system of thought.

If you don't like my morality, more power to you. Again, I'm not in any position that requires my justification of any thought or action to bigots (such as yourself).
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Prove that atheism is a sin.

Prove that Christianity is morally bankrupt. And, considering God said quite clearly you were to glorify Him, that kind of proves the point. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you; I personally don't care if you do, or don't.
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Oh right, this comes from the person whose entire correspondence with me has been filled with accusations about my "inferior breeding", my "class of person", wild-eyed ranting about how I'm "stupid and boorish" for daring to run over your favourite sacred cow, etc. I guess the phrase "throwing stones from a glass house" has never occurred to you before, eh?

Yep. This comes in response to a person that criticize my degree, because he refuses to recognize anything past his own nose, and from the same person that says I'm morally bankrupt, due to my Christian upbringing. Oh, and my home is constructed of brick, thank you.
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(yawn) yet more attempts to attack me and make excuses for your cowardice, in lieu of answering my challenge to back up your tough talk, eh? Don't tell me to waste my time chasing you around to all of the places you might choose to visit on the Internet, or asking me to speculate about websites which don't exist and which you promise to write someday. And do not pretend that you have no more obligation to answer me than I have to answer you; I have never bothered attacking you anywhere, while you have been attacking me personally BY NAME in various places around the Internet for quite a while now. The obligation is YOURS to respond when I challenge you to back up your loudmouth insults.

If your little feelings are hurt, I'm sorry. However, as opposed to reading this long and probably pointless rant, I'm going back to important things. If you want to talk to me, you know how to, and how to address me. If I wanted to address you and find you, I know and knew how, as well.
Quote:
I have already posed an actual point; many of them, in fact. They're all on my website. According to YOU, my points are apparently so weak that to merely make them proves I must be "stupid and boorish". You have made a unilateral accusation against me. The onus is on YOU to either back up your shit or concede.

I'm not reading your website; I'm reading my e-mail. If you have a question, ask it, or be quiet and leave me alone, until I have time for such childishness.
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You spend a lot of time talking about how my arguments are all wrong; now back it up. You want me to make the first argument? Fine.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism

Your turn.

Already answered this in the preceeding paragraph.

Goodnight.

I responded thusly:
Quote:
Isaac Bishop Junior wrote:
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Dude, in case you didn't quite read the entirty of the last e-mail, there are other things to do, besides answer whining e-mails bemoaning the fact that you're prejudiced. Shut up and get over yourself, I'm busy. If you've got a question to ask, ask it. Otherwise, find something else to do; I know I have.

You claim I'm prejudiced. Prove it. How does criticizing the Bible make me a bigot?
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No, in other words, I just don't like you, because you're prejudiced, and I don't like any bigots, no matter who they are. Again, read the previous paragraph. I'm not arguing your stupid bigotry, and you certainly haven't said anything intelligent to justify it (not that you could, because there is no justification for bigotry) for me to respond to.

Again, you claim I'm a "bigot". Prove it.
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Yawn. Whatever guy. As for attacking those you don't agree with, I'll remember that the next time I read about you and Darkstar.

Here's a hint, dumb-ass: if you're going to attack somebody, you have to back it up. I can back up my criticisms of Darkstar; this is a guy who thinks that the focal length of every 35mm camera in the world is fixed at 35mm, and who thinks his homemade "Canon Policy" has higher standing than the one put out by Lucasfilm. You, on the other hand, scream that I'm "prejudiced", yet you refuse to back that up. I say again: either back up your bullshit or concede.
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Tell me why I should even bother adressing bigots, in the first place? I really couldn't care less if you live a bigoted life and a bigoted family. Just don't bring that garbage to me, or mine. We don't tolerate it. When we see racists and other bigots, we turn our heads and walk away from them. They merit little else. As for my 'rabid' attack on Ventura, if that's what you call 'rabid', you really need to get out more.

In other words, you don't have the brains or the balls to back up your accusation that criticizing Christianity makes me a bigot, so you will continue to insult me while evading the argument.
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Do you ever get tired of waking up every morning and realizing you're a bigot? Do you ever get tired of making stupid attempts to provoke pointless arguments? Probably not; hence, you're still an instigating bigot.

*yawn*

See above.
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If you don't like my morality, more power to you. Again, I'm not in any position that requires my justification of any thought or action to bigots (such as yourself).

See above.
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Prove that Christianity is morally bankrupt.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism
Quote:
And, considering God said quite clearly you were to glorify Him, that kind of proves the point. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you; I personally don't care if you do, or don't.

Yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't be running around insulting me personally for saying that the Bible is a joke.
Quote:
Yep. This comes in response to a person that criticize my degree, because he refuses to recognize anything past his own nose, and from the same person that says I'm morally bankrupt, due to my Christian upbringing. Oh, and my home is constructed of brick, thank you.

You're morally bankrupt because you're an evasive, cowardly little pussy who flings shit and doesn't have the brains or balls to back it up when challenged, not because you were raised Christian. As I already said, many Christians are good people who have simply been misled. Unfortunately, you do not appear to be one of them.
Quote:
If your little feelings are hurt, I'm sorry. However, as opposed to reading this long and probably pointless rant, I'm going back to important things. If you want to talk to me, you know how to, and how to address me. If I wanted to address you and find you, I know and knew how, as well.

Excuse me Mr. Coward, but you are making personal accusations against me, so you have to back it up. The only accusation I have made against you as an individual is that you are a coward, and frankly, your conduct during this exchange has verified that quite beautifully. All you can do is hurl insults while saying that you don't care. You care enough to run around attacking someone by name all over the Internet, but not enough to respond when that person finally takes notice of you and asks you to back up your bullshit? You really think this will fool anyone?
Quote:
I'm not reading your website; I'm reading my e-mail. If you have a question, ask it, or be quiet and leave me alone, until I have time for such childishness.

It's not a question: it's a challenge for you to back up your claims that my website is bigoted. After all, YOU HAVE MADE THAT CLAIM, AND YOU REFUSE TO BACK IT UP WHEN CHALLENGED. What part of this do you not understand?
Quote:
Quote:
Your turn.

Already answered this in the preceeding paragraph.

No you didn't. You claimed that the arguments on my website somehow make me a bigot. YOU have already made a claim; I am merely asking you to back it up. There's your question. Now answer it, or you will merely reveal yourself to be the gutless pussy that everyone already says you are.

The same applies to my other website. Moreover, you have been running around claiming that you have ALREADY effortlessly demolished all of my arguments on both of my pet subjects. Surely you could simply quote one of these oh-so-irrefutable debunkings if you are as pressed for time as you say, but then again, that would imply that you were not bullshitting all along. It looks like you're just not a big enough man to take responsibility for your own mistakes and confess that you were talking trash because you didn't want to admit my arguments are stronger than you let on.

PS. It must be hard to sit up straight in front of your computer with no backbone.



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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 10:54pm
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Could anybody help me out here with a small favour? I know I've seen snippets of this guy's rhetoric against me from time to time, but I never bothered saving them because, well, I didn't particularly care. But now that I'm thinking of putting him on my Hate Mail page (frankly, if he doesn't send another message, I could simply put up the exchange to date, because it's damning enough already), I could still use some good examples of his various derogatory comments about me and my arguments. Does anybody have some good quotes of his which will help highlight the bullshit level of his claim that he has instigated nothing?



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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 11:01pm
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Or perhaps we could simply assume he will never accept the challenge (ie- future correspondence will simply repeat this evasive bullshit), and simply quote some of his dumber claims from his various postings on the Web in order to fill out the Hate Mail exchange. It's becoming increasingly clear that running away with his tail between his legs and shouting "I won't fight you because I'm .... too busy!" is the only thing I'm going to get out of him.



Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 11:53pm
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There was no mention of you by him during his short stint on ASVS. But he clearly demonstrates that he is not worth debating properly. Just skim through this thread on ASVS. I linked to the post where he names the school he obtained his degree from.

Perhaps the best idea would be Ossus's: wait until he debuts his website and review it using these e-mail exchanges as a preface.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 11:53pm
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ROFLMAO. He quoted Ventura?????



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-16 11:58pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
It's becoming increasingly clear that running away with his tail between his legs and shouting "I won't fight you because I'm .... too busy!" is the only thing I'm going to get out of him.


Considering that he's too busy posting elsewhere to find ten seconds to cut and paste of one of his devastating arguments :roll: into a post or email here...well, the magic eightball says, "Signs point to 'yes.'"

You could always email the text of some of your webpages since he says he's only answering email and not bothering to read your website (neat trick, BTW, criticizing a website he'll never read, but he'd hardly be the first fundie to deem a work evil and wrong without actually having looked at it). Of course, he'd promptly accuse you of spamming him or extend the "I'm too busy!" argument to his email.

-- Joe Momma

And now William Shatner reads from "Virus-X":
"Don't...have time...to answer you! Only have time...to post criticisms...behind!...your!...baaack!...at four other forums!"



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 12:55am
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Darth Wong wrote:
Could anybody help me out here with a small favour? I know I've seen snippets of this guy's rhetoric against me from time to time, but I never bothered saving them because, well, I didn't particularly care. But now that I'm thinking of putting him on my Hate Mail page (frankly, if he doesn't send another message, I could simply put up the exchange to date, because it's damning enough already), I could still use some good examples of his various derogatory comments about me and my arguments. Does anybody have some good quotes of his which will help highlight the bullshit level of his claim that he has instigated nothing?


I think, IIRC, that Darth Servo and Righteous Fist, are the best two for this, as they have run across this guy from a number of websites ...



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 01:03am
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Here's a couple of Virus-X quotes I've found which you might get a laugh out of:

Thu May 2, 2002
virusx2k1 wrote:
Still, 200 gigs probably isn't high enough to match a Romulan photon torpedo or Cardassian disruptor cannon mounted on a Keldon-class heavy cruiser, as the torpedoes made explosions that were damned near half the diameter of the planet, and the disruptor shots were not much smaller. Wong cried about special effects, and how they couldn't be counted as planet destruction, just because he didn't like them. I say tough. It's the canon, and that's what they said they did.


Fri Aug 23, 2002
virusx2k1 wrote:
I'm still working on my own website to rebut Wong's and the text is about 90% done. However, the real pain is getting all the JPEG & Quicktime imagery down. I don't even have a name for it, yet. I've got (with 1 or 2 exceptions) every Trek episode I've ever quoted for source, I can get ALL Star Wars movies (yes, I said "all") in a day on crystal-clear DVD or CD, but I still have to figure out how to get it done. I've used my sources in the armed forces (besides myself) for military data (all 3 branches; yes, the US only has THREE branches), from nuclear weapons techs to Navy SeALs, but I'm still crying about putting in all the JPEGs and Quicktime images.



"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 01:26am
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For someone who has a continued tendancy to call other people "1,000 miles coward" and such, Virus-X certainly doesn't pay attention to how his own insults is going to be interpreted by other people:

Tue Oct 23, 2001
Quote:
Well, funny the question I ask is the same one that's being mulled over by everyone, and now it's the wrong question. Furthermore, I'll trust the educated opinion of a person that is a proven specialist in the area, not some biased and arrogant jerk on the Internet that has nothing better to do that insult anyone that disagrees with him.


Tue Oct 23, 2001
Quote:
If you snickered less and paid attention more, you'd realize that I never said I was great at the hard sciences. When I want information I go to REAL experts, such as post doctorial Ph.D holders, and ask them. Your little "special friend" Wong might be good enough for you, but not for me. I've seen far too many mistake and outright lies in his 'evidence' to accept any of it. Plus, how can you accept the word of someone that's biased? Answer: you can't.



"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 02:45am
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Lord of the Farce wrote:
Here's a couple of Virus-X quotes I've found which you might get a laugh out of:

Fri Aug 23, 2002
virusx2k1 wrote:
I'm still working on my own website to rebut Wong's and the text is about 90% done.


Over a year now. Man, that last 10% must be a bitch...

Quote:
However, the real pain is getting all the JPEG & Quicktime imagery down.


Boy Howdy. I remember struggling for days with those damned <IMG> tags...

Quote:
I don't even have a name for it, yet. I've got (with 1 or 2 exceptions) every Trek episode I've ever quoted for source, I can get ALL Star Wars movies (yes, I said "all") in a day on crystal-clear DVD or CD, but I still have to figure out how to get it done.


He can get all (yes all) of the SW movies put on CD in a day...if he can only figure out how? This reminds me of Steve Martin's advice on how to be a millionaire. "First, get a million dollars..."

Quote:
I've used my sources in the armed forces (besides myself) for military data (all 3 branches; yes, the US only has THREE branches),


Army, Navy Air Force,.... I thought we had another. We did at one time, didn't we?

BTW, since when are "Goths" a race? Don't people grow out ofthat shit when they turn 20? I can imagine his camo paint....



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 02:50am
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Quote:
... I've used my sources in the armed forces (besides myself) for military data (all 3 branches; yes, the US only has THREE branches), from nuclear weapons techs to Navy SeALs, ...




:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: This alone makes him look like an ass. Yeah, like all those Marines on the Joint Chiefs of Staff are actually Navy personell. :roll:

Dick head.



They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 04:45am
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Whoops, just realised that I've stuffed up the order and the link. It should actually be as below:

Lord of the Farce wrote:
For someone who has a continued tendancy to call other people "1,000 miles coward" and such, Virus-X certainly doesn't pay attention to how his own insults is going to be interpreted by other people:

Tue Oct 23, 2001 [link]
Quote:
If you snickered less and paid attention more, you'd realize that I never said I was great at the hard sciences. When I want information I go to REAL experts, such as post doctorial Ph.D holders, and ask them. Your little "special friend" Wong might be good enough for you, but not for me. I've seen far too many mistake and outright lies in his 'evidence' to accept any of it. Plus, how can you accept the word of someone that's biased? Answer: you can't.


Tue Oct 23, 2001 [link]
Quote:
Well, funny the question I ask is the same one that's being mulled over by everyone, and now it's the wrong question. Furthermore, I'll trust the educated opinion of a person that is a proven specialist in the area, not some biased and arrogant jerk on the Internet that has nothing better to do that insult anyone that disagrees with him.



"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 09:27am
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Connor MacLeod wrote:
ROFLMAO. He quoted Ventura?????


There are far more entertaining things to quote Ventura on.

Ventura on hunting:

Jesse 'The Governing Body' Ventura wrote:
Until you've hunted man, you haven't really hunted.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 10:20am
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So for Mike, he's going to keep clucking and avoiding into ever getting into a debate, all the while calling Mike a heathen....and that's not even the best he's spewed.

Honestly the armed forces bit is the best(that's just bald ignorance of a new level)...truly if I didn't see it, I wouldn't believe chickens could have access to the Internet.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 10:59am
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I will more than happily provide material of the screw ups of Virus.
Ok, this will be VERY lengthy stuff so bear with me.

Quote:
Clearly, the Star Trek: Deep Space 9 episode “The Die is Cast” established what Wong called the Death Star’s superlaser (erroneously): a benchmark. The superlasers did not establish a true benchmark for Imperial firepower, because they were not in any way, shape or form common weapons. The Imperial star destroyer turbolasers, on the other hand, were more indicative of the norm. Virtually no starships carried superlasers (the Eclipse and not-produced Sovereign class star destroyers), and the ones that did, did not have superlasers any near the power of the ones installed in the Death Stars. The Romulan disruptor weapons, plasma torpedoes and Cardassian phaser cannons were not in any way, shape or form un-common; they were standard installation weaponry, and the Romulan warbirds have been compared in firepower to the Galaxy-class starships of around 2364-2365. The arguments of Star Wars absurdists against the complete and obvious reality of what Star Trek firepower is capable of is the result of nothing more than just blind, fearful denial. It is the result of Star Wars absurdists and zealots that are doggedly dead-set against saying anything positive about Star Trek technology, and worshipping the mindlessness that has resulted in such phases as “Federation Cultists”, against which I verbally retaliate. For them, to admit that anything in Star Trek is more technologically advanced would be unto suicide, for them, the same people that live for telling people such stupid phrases as “concession accepted”, whether there was one, or not. Even if Star Trek were to show an episode where a UFP Starfleet starship were to destroy a planet with a single shot and verbally show how many watts or joules were involved, Star Wars absurdists would stupidly dismiss this as being “merely subspace effects”, or that the planet had a low density, or some other mindlessly stupid write-off. This is the same idiotic mentality that says that the turbolasers that were used to destroy the asteroids in Episode 5 were at low-power, in spite of the fact that there was absolutely no canon or official documentation to back that up. They are the same people that state that Alderaan had a planetary deflector shield, in spite of the fact that there is no canon or official documentation to back that up, either, and yet both nuggets of falsehood have become part of the Star Wars zealot lore, thanks to the few that they give their blind loyalty, parroting their arguments because they don’t know how to formulate their own. Even when you successfully refute ‘their’ argument with mathematical and physical equations till the cows come home and 6 ways to Sunday, they continue to mindlessly drone “you’re wrong”, in spite of the fact that they don’t have the faintest idea of what you just said. However, while it is true that some come up with original arguments, many do not.


Quote:
Commonly, the episode "Survivors" is used as a last-ditch weapon by Star Wars absurdists, such as Michael Wong, in order to disprove the capabilities of Starfleet deflector shielding. However, this is very much a non-valid practice. Let’s look at www.stardestroyer.net and it’s untruthful approach.




"In "Survivors", an antiproton beam (charged particles) easily disabled the Enterprise-D's shields with a mere 200 GJ of energy (a 400GW 0.5-second burst)." And Wong neglects to mention the surprise in Worf’s voice when he made his report. More than likely, he was surprised that such an attack even worked against their shields. Starfleet deflector shielding has taken far harder strikes. For instance, the Constitution-class explorer was able to survive strikes from the prototype Romulan plasma torpedo. The U.S.S. Voyager, during the "Scorpion incident" (Star Trek: Voyager, "Scorpion, Pt. 1 & 2, Written by Brannon Braga & Joe Menosky. Directed by David Livingston, part 2 directed by Winrich Kolbe) sustained strikes from Species 8472 bioships that were clearly capable of firing energy beams more powerful than "…400GW 0.5-second burst…". Another thing that Star Wars absurdists try throwing in is garbage about "chain reactions" destroying planets that the bioships targeted. That’s as stupid as saying fission bombs (A-bombs) aren’t all that powerful, because they use chain reactions in their explosions. That’s how they work. The mechanism of how they inflict damage in this case is unimportant, what the question is, is how much damage do they inflict. Wong also conveniently neglects to mention that this was not even an actual starship that fired that particle beam bolt, but something created by an ultra-powerful Douwd, one of the so-called Unaffected Races.


Douwd. A little-known civilization of sentient energy beings capable of assuming he appearance of other life-forms. Possessing awesome powers of creation and destruction, the Douwd considered themselves to be immortal beings of disguises and false surroundings. One member of the Douwd assumed a Human identity around 2312, named himself Kevin Uxbridge, and settled on planet Delta Rana IV in 2361. ("The Survivors [TNG]).

-The Star Trek Encyclopedia, a Reference Guide to the Future (Updated & Expanded Edition), Douwd, pg.: 121. Written by Michael Okuda and Denise Okuda, with Debbie Mirek.


<DIR>
An important fact that Wong chose to omit, in order to convince you to think as he thinks: wrongly. Just how powerful were these "…awesome powers of creation and destruction…" Douwd? How powerful was "Mr. Uxbridge"?


</DIR>
Husnock. An extinct civilization described as having exhibited extremely violent and destrutive behavior. A Husnock ship attacked and destroyed the colony at Delta Rana IV in 2366. In retribution, the only survivor of the colony, a Douwd, destroyed the entire Husnock race. ("The Survivors" [TNG]).

-The Star Trek Encyclopedia, a Reference Guide to the Future (Updated & Expanded Edition), Husnock, pg.: 199. Written by Michael Okuda and Denise Okuda, with Debbie Mirek.


<DIR>
How powerful was the real Husnock starship?


</DIR>
Husnock ship. Spacecraft that attacked and destroyed the Federation colony on Delta Rana IV in 2366. A Douwd image of the Husnock ship attacked the Enterprise-D when it arrived to investigate the distress signals received from the colony. ("The Survivors" [TNG]).

-The Star Trek Encyclopedia, a Reference Guide to the Future (Updated & Expanded Edition), Husnock ship, pg.: 199. Written by Michael Okuda and Denise Okuda, with Debbie Mirek.


This makes it clear that it was nothing more than an "…image…" of the Husnock starship, and that any and all damages incurred by the Enterprise-D was inflicted through the paranormal powers of the Douwd, "Kevin". As for the level of destruction, any idiot, even Michael Wong could see the completeness of it on a planetary scale. The world was nothing more than a mass of craters.


Lt. Commander Data, 2nd Officer, Chief of Operations, U.S.S. Enterprise: "Sensors are scanning 90° of longitude a we orbit. I am detecting no bodies of water, no vegetation, no artificial structures."

Lt. Worf, Chief of Security, U.S.S. Enterprise: "Life form readings are negative."

-Star Trek: the Next Generation, "the Survivors", episode #51. Written by Michael Wagner. Directed by Les Landau. Stardate 43152.4.


A description of the Husnock starship from "Kevin Uxbridge":

"They came in a spaceship so big, you could see it in orbit. They took our world apart, piece-by-piece."


Considering Michael Wong seems to believe that size automatically indicates superior technology, backed by such simple-minded statements as: "…However, a lone ISD is still an impressive sight for primitive cultures, who are generally incapable of constructing a vessel on that scale (the Federation has never been able to build a starship longer than 700 meters).", the Husnock far out-stripped the ‘Galactic’ Empire/New Republic/Corporate Sector Authority in military technology. I don’t think that even the Eclipse-class star destroyer is "…a spaceship so big, you could see it in orbit." The Douwd’s powers were immense. Even as he created the starship, he was able to launch and sustain a psionic attack on the Enterprise-D councilor, the psychic half-Betazoid Deanna Troi. Considering the be-all of power is Wong’s tired, ad-nauseam ‘base delta zero’ reference, this single ship planetary annihilation should show how powerful it truly was (before "Kevin" got through with it). So, in the final analysis, we’re left with the inevitable conclusion that this is yet another of Mike Wong’s lies of omission.


Quote:
The Nkllon Debacle:


Nkllon-derived upper limit. Some Federation cultists point to the Nkllon incident in Heir to the Empire, in which the ISD Judicator suffered damage while orbiting the planet Nkllon, which closely orbits its sun Athega. However, there are several problems with this line of reasoning


The characteristics of that star and planet are completely unknown- the star is described as super-hot in the SWE and the planet is obviously composed of extremely unusual minerals since Lando felt its mineral wealth was worth the expensive and dangerous undertaking of mining it, in spite of the fact that millions of other planets were accessible.


"The characteristics of that star and planet are completely unknown-" However, this never stops the Wong from speculating on everything else. As for "…completely unknown-…", that’s another un-truth.


Athega System: Athega system has long been seen as a potential source of raw materials. The worlds orbiting it’s sun are lifeless rocks, but they are rich in minerals and fuel stores. The only stumbling block to setting up a mining operation has been a major one--the intensity of the giant sun is so great that it melts even the heaviest shielding for starships.

Lando Calrissian petitioned the New Republic for the rights to the system and for loans to help him implement a complicated scheme to extract the valuable minerals. They agreed to both requests. First he designed ships which could shield freighters coming in to pick up cargo, and with the help of the Republic Engineering Corporation, a dozen of the unique ships were built. Now, the shieldships run back and forth from depots farther out in the system, sheltering freighters and other ships on their journey to Nkllon.

Nkllon: The super-hot planet Nkllon orbits the intense sun of Athega. Once it was thought the rich raw materials locked within the planet would never be freed. Nkllon orbits very close to it’s sun. Any normal ship which approaches the planet has it’s hull quickly peeled away by the intense heat. Only through the use of specially-designed shieldships can a normal ship reach the planet.

The side of the planet in direct sunlight is off limits even to Lando’s well prepared operation. However, with the use of Nomad City and Nkllon’s very slow rotation, the scoundrel-gone-businessman has been able to pry ores of tremendous value from the planet because the dark side remains cool enough to work on. The lights of mole miners can be seen shining out of the darkness like close stars as the radio-controlled vehicles dig up the surface. The view on approach to Nomad City is absolutely stunning. It’s sweeping lights and lumbering form fills the darkside night with a spectacular glow.


Type: Small rock

Temperature: Searing

Atmosphere: None

Hydrosphere: Arid

Gravity: Light

Terrain: Crater fields, volcanic

Length of Day: 3,527 Standard Hours (approximately 90 Standard Days)

Sapient Races: Humans

Starport: Standard (used shieldships from outside system)

Population: 5,000 (Nomad City)

Planet Function: Mining

Government: Corporate (New Republic Allied)

Tech Level: Space

Major Exports: Metals, minerals

Major Imports: Foodstuffs, high tech, mid tech


Nomad City: Lando had the city constructed out of castaway vehicles destined fro scrap. The largest portion of the city is an old Dreadnought-class cruiser the Alliance had captured after the Battle of Endor. He fitted the old ship on top of forty captured Imperial AT-AT walkers. Thee made the city mobile, and although it has a lumbering gait, it is still fast enough to stay within the shadow at all times.


-Star Wars the Role Playing Game (2nd Edition) Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, Chapter 5: Planets, Athega System, Nkllon, pgs.: 76-78. Written by Bill Slavicsek. Published by West End Games. First printing: July 1992.


So, from this we know that the intensity of the sun was "…so great that it melts even the heaviest shielding for starships…", and that Nkllon was "…super-hot…". There is absolutely NOTHING to support Wong’s wild, unchecked flights of fancy reflected in unsubstantiated statements as: "…composed of extremely unusual minerals…". It is more likely that the Athega System was prioritized and lusted after due to the fact that it has a higher than normal concentration of minerals and metal deposits. Higher than what is usually found in other worlds throughout their galaxy. This would spell a much higher wealth-to-work ratio, in spite of the possibility "…that millions of other planets were accessible …". It should be painfully obvious that those "…millions of other planets…" did not have the mineralogical wealth that those of the Athega system. Furthermore, let’s not forget that those "…millions of other planets…" probably wouldn’t have afforded the glory-seeking Lando Calrissian anywhere near the level of prestige that he craved, as well. Lando Calrissian is a personality that is not only driven for profit, but to have galactic recognition for all the things he does. Fame, fortune and glory are his prime motivators. Due to the lack of scientific progress and know-how prevalent within the ‘Galactic’ Empire/Galactic Republic/New Republic/Corporate Sector Authority, and similar regimes from their galaxy, further hampered by poor sensor technology ("…we no longer equip our ships with extensive scientific data-gathering arrays like the ones on Federation starships. Our scanner and sensor arrays are therefore limited to tactical data-gathering of enemy ship location and movement.…"), it goes without saying that their astrophysical knowledge must be centuries, to millennia behind that of the United Federation of Planets Starfleet. Their sensors must be enhanced with such cumbersome, lumbering contrivances as the laughably antiquated DragGondola. Not even in the days of the NX-01 Enterprise of the earliest days of the New United Nations Starfleet did Starfleet starships have to resort to such ludicrously rude devices as that. This has allowed Starfleet and it’s constituents to come up with a stellar categorization system that puts stars in spectral classes and absolute magnitudes. *Each spectral class is divided into 10 subclasses, ranging from 0 (hottest) to 9 (coolest). Stars are also divided into 6 categories according to luminosity: 1a (most luminous supergiants), 1b (less luminous supergiants), II (luminous giants), III (normal giants), IV (subgiants), and V (main sequence and dwarfs). For instance, Sol is classified as G2V, which means that it is a relatively hot G-Class main sequence star. In addition, classes R, N, S, T, Q and W are used for relatively rare star types not found on the main sequence. *The Hertzsprung-Russell diagram plots the spectral class or temperature of stars against their absolute magnitude (brightness or luminosity). About 90% of the stars in our galaxy can be found on the MAIN SEQUENCE, and remain there during their long lifetime of burning hydrogen. When a star has used up all of the hydrogen in it’s core, it leaves the main sequence and becomes a red giant (upper right); very massive stars may become red supergiants.

*Star Trek Star Charts, the Complete Atlas of Star Trek, Stars, pg.: 20. Written & illustrated by Geoffrey Mandel. Published by Pocket Books.

*Star Trek Star Charts, the Complete Atlas of Star Trek, Spectral Classes, pg.: 21. Written & illustrated by Geoffrey Mandel. Published by Pocket Books.

Melting Points:

Carbon: 3,773.15º Kelvin

Tungsten: 3,683.15º Kelvin

Osmium: 3,045º Kelvin

Titanium: 3,560.15º Kelvin

Vanadium: 2,163.15º Kelvin

Chromium: 2,130.15º Kelvin

Iron: 1,808.15º Kelvin

Molybdenum: 2,890.15º Kelvin

Platinum: 2.045.15º Kelvin

Tantalum: 2,269.15º Kelvin

Rhenium: 3,453.15º Kelvin

http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/si.html


It is pretty unlikely that they were mining iron; iron melts too quickly, so let’s say that only the minerals/metals with the highest of melting points are being mined from Nkllon, to include carbon, tungsten, osmium, titanium and rhenium. As long as the surface temperature doesn’t exceed 3,045º Kelvin, the weakest of those elements (osmium) should remain intact. Remember, the surface of Nkllon is "…Crater fields, volcanic…", not "molten". Furthermore, a planet of boiling elements would create an atmosphere; something Nkllon lacks ("…Atmosphere: None…").


Kelvin (thermodynamic temperature) to Joule (energy) = 1 Kelvin degree/joule (reciprocal of heat capacity)

www.convertit.com


Now, let’s look at the performance of the Imperial-I class star destroyer.


Imperial-I Star Destroyer

Shield Points: 300 (DR: 30)

Hull Points: 700 (DR: 30)

-Star Wars Role Playing Game Core Rulebook (1st Edition), Chapter 11: Starships, Imperial Star Destroyer, pg.: 186. Written by Bill Slavicsek, Andy Collins & J.D. Wiker. Published by Wizards of the Coast.


Now, in contrast:


Republic Assault Ship

Shield Points: 240 (DR: 25)

Hull Points: 320 (DR: 25)
-Star Wars Role Playing Game Core Rulebook (2nd Edition). Published by Wizards of the Coast.


The Imperial I-class star destroyer deflector (ray/energy) shields are strong enough to repel up to and including 8.75(10) joules, while the Republic assault ship is rated as having a shield strong enough to tolerate 7(10) joules.

-Star Wars Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections, the Definitive Guide to the Craft from Star Wars: Episode II. Republic Assault Ship Data File, pg.: 23. Written by Curtis Saxton.


If we make the assumption that 1 shield point is roughly equivalent to » 291.6666667(10) joules, with the deflector shield damage reduction rating of 25 assigned to an Acclamator-class assault ship (which is » 10.41666667% the shield rating of 240), this means 7.291666668(10) joules/7.291666668 zettajoules must be exceeded to tax the shield and begin eroding shield points. With the 30 damage reduction rating assigned to the deflector shields of the Imperial I-class star destroyer, apparently, 8.750000001(10) joules must be exceeded in order to affect their deflector (ray/energy) shields and begin depleting shield points. So therefore, the heat would have had exceed some 8.750000001(10) joules/Kelvin to affect the shields of the Imperial I-class star destroyer as they did. Let’s also not forget that this happens "…quickly…". The hull of the Imperial-I class star destroyer is very well armored, and is equal in protective value to the ray/energy shielding, having a damage reduction value of 30, as well, meaning that the damage to the hull would have to have come from a source some 8.750000001(10)+ joules strong, as well. Obviously, this couldn’t be a main sequence star, and heat couldn’t have been the only factor making it dangerous. However, let’s not forget that this process is supposed to happen "…quickly…", and in reality, the appearance and departure of the Imperial-class star destroyer Judicator was very brief. It appeared very nearby Nkllon, in order to insure minimal exposure to the damaging solar radiation:


"Right." Han said. "Make sure your reception committee is someone you can trust."

"Another slight pause. "Oh?" Lando asked, casually. "Is there something--?"

He was cut off by a sudden electronic squeal from the transmitter. "What’s that?" Leia snapped.

"Someone’s jamming us," Han growled, jabbing at the transmitter cutoff. The squealing vanished, leaving an unpleasant ringing in his ears as he keyed for intercom. "Chewie, we’ve got trouble," he called. "Get up here."

He got an acknowledgement, turned back to the transmitter. "Get us a scan of the area," he told Leia. "See if there’s anything coming in."

"Right," Leia said, already working the keys. "What are you going to do?"

"I’m going to find us a clear frequency." He pulled the Falcon out of it’s approach vector, made sure they had an open field around them, then turned the transmitter back on, keeping the volume low. There were freq-scanning and mixing tricks that he’d used in the past against this kind of jamming. The question now was whether he was going to have the time to implement them.

Abruptly, much quicker than he’d anticipated, the squeal dissolved into a voice. "--peating: any ships who can read me, please check in."

"Lando, it’s me." Han called. "What’s going on?"

"I’m not sure," Lando said, sounding distracted. "It could be just a solar flare scrambling our communications--that happens sometimes. But the pattern here doesn’t seem quite right for…"

His voice trailed off. "What?" Han demanded.

There was a faint hiss from the speaker, the sound of someone inhaling deeply. "Imperial Star Destroyer," Lando said quietly. "Coming in fast toward the planetary shadow."

Han looked at Leia, saw her face turn to stone as she looked back at him. "They’ve found us," she whispered.

-Star Wars: Heir to the Empire, Chapter 12, pgs.: 143-144. Written by Timothy Zahn.


Apparently, the Judicator remained just long enough to move from a near orbit Hyperspace jump, to the planet’s dark side (where the mining was going on), launch fighters to engage defenders while the insane clone Jedi Master C’baoth guided the mole-miners to surrender to him and be abducted, collect their starfighter, and run like Hell. From the time of their appearing in-system, jamming communications and getting out, the whole thing shouldn’t have taken more than 5 minutes. The damage? First of all, let’s look at the preparations for sending Judicator into harm’s way:




"I think the Athega system’s still our best bet. Or it will be if we can find a way around the problems of the sunlight intensity there."

"The problems will be minimal," Thrawn said with easy confidence. "If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be indirect sunlight for only a few minutes each way. It’s hull can certainly handle that much. We’ll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment."

Pellaeon nodded, swallowing his next question. There would, of course, be none of the difficulties that would normally arise from blinding and deafening a Star Destroyer in that way. Not as long as C’baoth was with them.

-Star Wars: Heir to the Empire, Chapter 9, pg.: 101. Written by Timothy Zahn.


So this shows that Wong was lying about the damage, too. "…one can surmise that it was probably confined to delicate items like sensor arrays, communications antennae, and perhaps exposed light gun barrels…" Is a false statement, considering the Grand Admiral clearly ordered: "…We’ll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment…" In other words, there were no "…sensor arrays, communications antennae…" to be damaged. Liar, liar. The actual damage assessment is as follows:


"Captain Pellaeon, how long will it take to repair the damage to the Judicator?"

"Several days a the least, Admiral," Pellaeon told him. "Depending on the damage, it could take as long as three or four weeks."

"All right. We’ll go to the rendezvous point, stay with them long enough to make sure repairs are properly underway, and then take Master C’baoth to Jomark. I trust that will be satisfactory?" he added, looking back at C’baoth.

-Star Wars: Heir to the Empire, Chapter 13, pg.: 150. Written by Timothy Zahn.


Quote:
Star Wars absurdists always try stating that Star Wars weaponry is more powerful than Star Trek weaponry, and I disagree. Michael Wong has made the following quotation at www.stardestroyer.net:


"Weapon Breakdown:
There are 16 heavy turbolasers and roughly 120 light turbolasers on an ISD1 (ref. SWICS). The heavy turbolasers are roughly 125 times bigger than the light turbolasers (which were seen vaporizing asteroids in TESB). If firepower is proportional to size (an unsubstantiated but not unreasonable postulate) then the sustainable power outputs of the heavy and light guns work out to 36 million TW and 290,000 TW respectively. Re-fire rates seem to be roughly 1 shot per 2 seconds, so the energy level of each individual blast would have to be 72 million TJ (17 gigatons of TNT) for heavy turbolasers and 580,000 TJ (138 megatons) for light turbolasers."


Those familiar with this site already know that my yields are different, and, even higher than those of Michael Wong’s. For instance, his heavy turbolaser yield is "…72 million TJ (17 gigatons of TNT)…", while mine is "…600(10^18) joules…". Yes, 600(10^18) Joules is higher than 72(10^18) joules. By far. In any event, this post is dedicated to the question that he posed in the phrase:


"This operation must not take longer than 1 hour or so, otherwise significant numbers of planetary citizens would be able to evacuate. The power requirement is therefore roughly 610 million TW."

-www.stardestroyer.net


Below is a reiteration of the formula used to determine the destructive areas of detonating thermonuclear/high-energy weaponry. Then, it goes to describe common Imperial/New Republic/Corporate Sector Authority weaponry, and then one of several elements utilized to perform orbital bombardments.


The three categories of immediate effects are: blast, thermal radiation (heat), and prompt ionizing or nuclear radiation. Their relative importance varies with the yield of the bomb. At low yields, all three can be significant sources of injury. With an explosive yield of about 2.5 Kt, the three effects are roughly equal. All are capable of inflicting fatal injuries at a range of 1 km.

The equations below provide approximate scaling laws for relating the destructive radius of each effect with yield:

r_thermal = Y^0.41 * constant_th r_blast = Y^0.33 * constant_bl r_radiation = Y^0.19 * constant_rad
If Y is in multiples (or fractions) of 2.5 Kt, then the result is in km (and all the constants equal one). This is based on thermal radiation just sufficient to cause 3rd degree burns (8 calories/cm^2); a 4.6 psi blast overpressure (and optimum burst height); and a 500 rem radiation dose.


The baseline of 2.5 kt of TNT = 8.36(10^12) joules (8.36 terajoules)


Turbolaser: Approximately 418(10^18) J/100 gigatons of TNT for a thermal radius of 1.434094274 thousand km, and a blast radius of 347.2642703 km.

1.434094274 = 50,000,000^.41 * constant_th

347.2642703 = 50,000,000^.33 * constant_bl


Medium Turbolaser: 500(10^18) joules for a thermal radius of 1.543380924 thousand kilometers, while the blast radius persists out to 368.4105258 kilometers.

1.543380924 = 59.80861244^.41 * constant_th

368.4105258 = 59.80861244^.33 * constant_bl


Heavy Turbolaser: At approximately 600(10^18) joules, thermal hazard zones will persist out to 1.663173049 thousand kilometers, with a blast wave hazard out to 391.2567482 kilometers.

1.663173049 = 71.77033493^.41 * constant_th

391.2567482 = 71.77033493^.33 * constant_bl


Double Turbolaser/Quad Turbolaser: At approximately 836(10^18) J/(» 200 gigatons of TNT), the double turbolaser blast will create a thermal threat zone out to approximately 1.905460718 thousand kilometers and a blast wave out to 436.5158322 kilometers.

1.905460718 = 100,000,000^.41 * constant_th

436.5158322 = 100,000,000^.33 * constant_bl


Laser Cannon (capital scale): 6 Megatons/25.08(10^15) joules; this will create a thermal hazard out to 26.64524479 kilometers and a blast wave out to 14.04268047 kilometers.

26.64524479 = 3,000^.41 * constant_th

14.04268047 = 3,000^.33 * constant_bl


Quad Laser Cannon (capital scale): 12 Megatons (50.16[10^15] joules), firing 2 barrels simultaneously; this will create a thermal hazard out to 35.40315876 kilometers, and a blast wave hazard out to 17.65183717 kilometers.

35.40315876 = 6,000^.41 * constant_th

17.65183717 = 6,000^.33 * constant_bl


Proton Torpedo (capital scale): As launched from a torpedo sphere and Victory-class star destroyer (not Victory II), the warheads are depicted as being approximately 128.5714286% the strength of a heavy turbolaser cannon, coming in at 771.4285716(10^18) joules/184.5522899 gigatons of TNT. This will result in a blast wave out to 425.0886566 km, and a thermal hazard out to approximately 1.843684784 thousand kilometers. The nuclear warheads will result in a radiological hazard out to 32.61121608 kilometers. The proton-scattering warheads do not have any known radiological environmental contamination effects.

-Star Wars the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, Chapter 5: Capital Ships, Torpedo Sphere, pgs.: 59-60, Imperial II-class star destroyer, pgs.: 61-62. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games.


1.843684784 = 92,276,144.93^.41 * constant_th

425.0886566 = 92,276,144.93^.33 * constant_bl

32.61121608 = 92,276,144.93^.19 * constant_rad


Let’s examine the individual unit types that would be used for a base delta zero operation, starting with the system bombard.


"System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between 3 bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron. The new unit will still be called a bombard squadron to avoid the need to consult with a moff or higher authority. Such actions are not approved of when they are discovered."

-System Bombard, pg: 107. Star Wars, the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"Bombard squadrons have 2 torpedo lines, a skirmish line and a pursuit line, for an average of 20 to 28 vessels. Bombard squadrons are assigned to worlds which have rebelled successfully and have organized a large surface military which would take far too long to defeat. Imperial commanders, pressed on so many planets, often deploy bombard squadrons in less severe circumstances.

"The vessels which escort the bombard squadron are considered sufficient to deal with any starships which might resist. Any force larger than what a bombard squadron can handle would draw the attention of the Imperial Navy, who would deal with it prior to the appearance of the bombard squadron."

-Bombard Squadron, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 103. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.

"Torpedo lines usually have 2 torpedo spheres. The cumbersome nature of the spheres makes them useful only for their primary mission of planet bombardment. The dream of a more mobile platform with even greater firepower has tantalized Imperial planners for years, but the torpedo line remains a staple of the Navy."

-Line, Torpedo Line, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 101-102. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"Light squadrons consist of at least 2 attack lines, a skirmish line and a recon line, averaging 20 to 30 vessels of all types. A second common configuration of a light squadron is 2 recon lines, a skirmish line and a pursuit line, averaging 25 to 35 vessels. Both are deployed in areas where it is believed there are no enemy capital ships. With the first squadron configuration the Navy is playing it safe; such alight squadron can survive more punishment should the intelligence estimates prove wrong."
-Light Squadron, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 103. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"An attack line has from 3 to 6 ships; fewer ships if the line consists of heavy cruisers or larger ships, 6 if the line consists of light cruisers or frigates. An attack line’s purpose is to engage enemy combat starships of equivalent size. If star destroyers or other top capital ships are present the attack line is to engage the enemy within range of the star destroyer, making sure that the star destroyer is out of effective range of the enemy ships. If a star destroyer does not have to concentrate on it’s own defense it can make short work of virtually any enemy starship.

"A heavy attack line has from 4 to 8 ships, none smaller than a light cruiser. A heavy attack line is designed to come out even against any like number of enemy combat starships. The heavy attack line is an independent element of maneuver, one which an Imperial commander would be unafraid to commit to a conflict which was out of range of his sensors."

-Attack Line, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 100. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"Skirmish lines contain 4 to 20 small combat starships, corvettes being the most common sort of ship. Skirmish lines are meant to harass larger starships or else engage in a coordinated action against enemy starfighters. The emergence and prevalence of TIE fighters temporarily diminished the role of the skirmish lines, but they have regained favor as the Rebellion has become better armed. TIE fighters often use available skirmish lines as mobile cover, and skirmish lines try to provide cover fire for the TIEs."

-Line, Skirmish Line, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 101. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"Recon lines contain 2 to 4 ships, operating in pairs or individually. Reconnaissance ships are usually light cruisers modified for even greater sublight speed, trading in about half of their laser cannons for a hull complement of sensors with greater range and sensitivity than the Imperial average. Recon lines are to find the enemy, retreat without engaging in combat, and return to report on the disposition of the enemy.
"Recon lines are more common now as the Empire equips more of it’s large capital ships with improved Hyperwave Signal Interceptors capable of detecting flux shift. This technology allows the Imperial Navy to actually project a ship’s destination once it jumps into Hyperspace with greater accuracy than the old method. Enemy ships can no longer just jump out of trouble; the odds that the fleet will follow are getting better. So enemy ships often try to lie quietly in the sensor penumbra of an asteroid or similar body in order to avoid detection. Recon lines are sent into the dark places of a system to see what they can find."
-Squadron, Recon Squadron, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 101. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


"A pursuit line has 4 to 10 ships, usually light cruisers or occasionally lighter ships such as corvettes. Their mission is to maintain contact with a retreating enemy. As virtually every combat starship has hyperdrive, pursuit lines are most often employed against starfighters which are not Hyperspace capable, or to follow escaping craft long enough to calculate their jump coordinates.

"Pursuit lines are also commonly used on missions which crews call "beam baiting." Pursuit lines track Rebel starships to a base or a planet known to house well-organized Rebel sympathizers. They engage the starships and see if any Rebel units come to their aid. Then they employ a fighting retreat to a point where a heavier element of the fleet can jump in from Hyperspace. The Empire enhances this tactic by sending pursuit lines on such missions without any backup, so the Rebels can never be sure whether or not the line is part of a trap."

-Line, Pursuit Line, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 101. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


So, the system bombard will contain an average of 100 ships, divided up amongst 3 bombard squadrons and a light squadron. The following shows the breakdown of what elements brings what types of starships.


Bombard Squadron 1: 2 Torpedo spheres, 20 Corellian corvettes, 10 light cruisers

Bombard Squadron 2: 2 Torpedo spheres, 20 Corellian corvettes, 10 light cruisers

Bombard Squadron 3: 2 Torpedo spheres, 20 Corellian corvettes, 10 light cruisers

Attack Line: 3 Heavy cruisers, 20 Corellian corvettes, 2 light cruisers

Attack Line: 3 Heavy cruisers, 20 Corellian corvettes, 2 light cruisers


Now, with the understanding of how many ships are present (not counting any possible starfighters, as their weapons are considered insignificant in such operations as planetary bombardment), it is time to examine the volume and types of firepower that is brought to bear.


Bombard Squadron 1: 2 Torpedo spheres (20 turbolaser batteries, 1,000 proton torpedo tubes), 20 Corellian corvettes (120 double turbolaser cannons), 10 light cruisers (100 heavy turbolasers, 200 laser cannons)

Bombard Squadron 2: 2 Torpedo spheres (20 turbolaser batteries, 1,000 proton torpedo tubes), 20 Corellian corvettes (120 double turbolaser cannons), 10 light cruisers (100 heavy turbolasers, 200 laser cannons)

Bombard Squadron 3: 2 Torpedo spheres (20 turbolaser batteries, 1,000 proton torpedo tubes), 20 Corellian corvettes (120 double turbolaser cannons), 10 light cruisers (100 heavy turbolasers, 200 laser cannons)

Attack Line: 3 Heavy cruisers (30 laser cannons, 60 quad laser cannons, 60 turbolaser batteries), 20 Corellian corvettes (120 double turbolaser cannons), 2 light cruisers (20 heavy turbolasers, 40 laser cannons)

Attack Line: 3 Heavy cruisers (30 laser cannons, 60 quad laser cannons, 60 turbolaser batteries), 20 Corellian corvettes (120 double turbolaser cannons), 2 light cruisers (20 heavy turbolasers, 40 laser cannons)


This creates a grand total of 180 turbolaser batteries, 3,000 proton torpedo tubes, 600 double turbolasers, 120 laser cannons & 120 quad laser cannons.

The subject of the attack will be an Earth-like planet, bearing 5.1(10^8) km^2 of surface area.

One of the biggest problems with Imperial/New Republic/Corporate Sector Authority directed energy weaponry is the low rate of fire. Turbolasers require recharge/cool periods of approximately 2 seconds. So, let’s only examine the first second of fire. Any further damages will be based upon what transpires in the first second. Assume no 2 weapon hardpoints are aimed at the same target, so as to more speedily destroy maximum land area. 2+ Weapons concentrating on a single point on the land would do more damage to that land, but would leave another piece of land untouched, in the mean time.

The 180 turbolaser batteries consist of 5 individual turbolasers, adding up to 900 turbolasers. Each of the 900 is capable of destroying 1.434094274 thousand kilometers, or, 2.056626387 million km^2. The proton torpedoes are capable of taking out 3.399173583 million km^2. 3,000 Of them scattering across the landscape would attack and destroy some 6.16987916 billion km^2. 600 Double turbolasers would destroy 1.905460718 thousand km^2, each, for a total of 3.630780548 million km^2. 120 Capital starship scale laser cannons would incinerate and vaporize 789.9690699 million km^2. The 120 capital scale quad laser cannons would destroy an additional 1.25338365 billion km^2. In total, within the first second, a grand total of 8.218919287 billion km^2. An Earth-like planet would have it’s entire surface devastated within the first second of concentrated fire. Clearly, the operation does not take a very long time, and larger elements (larger than a system bombard) are completely unnecessary.


"A star destroyer is considered a line in itself. A naval staff study concluded that a star destroyer was the equivalent of at least the squadrons of the time, and would be properly categorized as such. The Admiralty agreed with the analysis, but disagreed with the conclusion. The Admiralty felt that as there were more lines than squadrons, designating the star destroyer as a line unit would get them more star destroyers. The Admiralty’s thinking prevailed."

-Line, Star Destroyer, Star Wars: the Role Playing Game Imperial Sourcebook, pg.: 102. Written by Greg Gorden. Published by West End Games, October 1989.


A standard star destroyer (as depicted in the Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels) is armed with 60 turbolasers. Each is capable of destroying 1.434094274 thousand kilometers in a heat flash, or, 2.056626387 million km^2. 60 Of them would destroy 123.3975832 million km^2/123.3975832(10^6) km^2. Firing full volleys every 2 seconds, the planet would be devastated in about 8.265964159 seconds.

Again, this is all contingent upon the fire control officers linking areas of destruction together with maximum efficiency and coordinating fleet fire with equal efficiency. Also, all ships would have to be firing; if the pursuit and skirmish lines were engaged with spaceborne defense forces, this would extend time to destruction, as both attack squadrons would be occupied, removing a large amount of firepower.

This was posted because, unlike the Star Wars absurdists, I do not make ignorant and ascinine statements like "Star Wars technologies are weak and ineffective". I don't believe they're greater than Star Trek's, but they're still good. If possible, could someone re-check my math?

Virus-X(ver 3.3)



I checked if i could have clipped something out of those posts but unfortunately, they are necessary to be in their whole form to notice all the fuckups Virus made.



"The ones they built at the height of nuclear weapons could knock the earth out of its orbit" - Physics expert Envy in reference to the hydrogen bombs built during the cold war.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 11:03am
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Damn smilies, forgot to disable them. Could a mod possibly disable the emoticons in my last post?

Behold the power of cheese!



"The ones they built at the height of nuclear weapons could knock the earth out of its orbit" - Physics expert Envy in reference to the hydrogen bombs built during the cold war.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 11:24am
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Dumbass-X wrote:
Turbolaser: Approximately 418e18 J/100 gigatons of TNT for a thermal radius of 1.434094274 thousand km, and a blast radius of 347.2642703 km.


Yet another dumbass who quotes his answers to TEN! significant figures despite the fact that his input has only three... I never imagined one could measure the blast radius of a 100-gigaton blast down to +/- 100 microns. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2003-11-17 11:53am
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Virus-X wrote:
I've used my sources in the armed forces (besides myself) for military data (all 3 branches; yes, the US only has THREE branches)...
Methinks that there are five branches of service in the U.S Armed Forces. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard. Yep, five it is. It would appear that he is not very knowledgable on the U.S. Armed Forces, the same goes for his "sources".



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