A Song of Ice and Fire

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-03-30 01:21am

I recently finished reading "Storm of Swords" by George R.R. Martin and was wondering how many of us are also fans of this excellent new saga.
Book four, "A Feast for Crows" is due out shortly, and Im actually going to buy this one in Hardback, something I never do , but I really can't wait for the paper back on this one.
IMHO the Song of Ice and Fire is eclipsed only by the works of Tolkien and Brooks for sheer adventure , scope and gripping characters. Its got a cast almost as vast as Jordan's WoT series , but it never feels nearly as ponderous as the latest WoT books have. He really makes Jordan look like a piker by comparison. Dont get me wrong , I love WoT and am eagerly awaiting the paperback of "Crossroads of Twilight" but after TEN books it just seems to drag at times.

Waht do you all think?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-03-30 02:18am

hardcore fantasy. better then wot. feels like real life. half the main characters buy it.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-03-30 02:28am

Well, aside from LoTR , it's the best fantasy I've read.

But as for Feast of Crow....don't hold your hopes up. It MIGHT still take a while yet...

But on the plus-side. Dance Of Draong (the original 4th book, now it's the 5th) should be out pretty soon too, since GRR Martin has done quite a lot of it before starting on FoC.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-03-30 03:45am

You get the release date from Amazon.com? Don't trust that one... check his site instead.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-01 03:02am

It's good, but there's some serious problems with it.

Too many characters are a little one-dimensional, many of them (almost all female characters, and particularly Sansa Stark, urrgh!) are unrealistic and I didn't particularly like Martin's casual misogynism and some of the gratuitous sex scenes that were outright disgusting and didn't even serve the plot in any way (cases in point the way Dany is raped (yes, raped, because the scenario portrayed is completely unrealistic) on her wedding night, that was just a sick pedophilia scene, and the one when Roose Bolton's troops take Harrenhal and some of the women are tied up outside to be generally raped. There are others asd well). Sure, some of that kind of shit obviously happens, but if and when it doesn't serve to further the plot, it's completely superfluous and unnecessary and doesn't need to be shown.

The main political plot is also a direct ripoff from English history, practically unaltered, as a friend of mine who has researched a lot of that for her professional writing said. Not that this detail bothered me, because I didn't know about it, and it still doesn't, but the stuff I ranted about above does. That said, I still think they're good books, but Martin does not deserve unthinking worship.

Edi

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-01 04:14am

Edi wrote:It's good, but there's some serious problems with it.

Too many characters are a little one-dimensional, many of them (almost all female characters, and particularly Sansa Stark, urrgh!) are unrealistic and I didn't particularly like Martin's casual misogynism and some of the gratuitous sex scenes that were outright disgusting and didn't even serve the plot in any way (cases in point the way Dany is raped (yes, raped, because the scenario portrayed is completely unrealistic) on her wedding night, that was just a sick pedophilia scene, and the one when Roose Bolton's troops take Harrenhal and some of the women are tied up outside to be generally raped. There are others asd well). Sure, some of that kind of shit obviously happens, but if and when it doesn't serve to further the plot, it's completely superfluous and unnecessary and doesn't need to be shown.

The main political plot is also a direct ripoff from English history, practically unaltered, as a friend of mine who has researched a lot of that for her professional writing said. Not that this detail bothered me, because I didn't know about it, and it still doesn't, but the stuff I ranted about above does. That said, I still think they're good books, but Martin does not deserve unthinking worship.

Edi

Hmmm........I didnt see any of this when I read the books. For me all the characters wer very three dimensional , including Sansa Stark. Sansa is 12, and in VERY short order shes forced into a situation she has no experience or training for. Ned and Catlyn Stark are the polar opposites of Bartherons and Lannisters, and once it all goes to hell in Kings Landing, what is a girl supposed to do?

Yes Dany was raped, but what your reading about was common place for young princesses who would be married off as soon as physically/emotionaly possible, and if Danrys as a younggirl bothers you just add some mental pubes, its only a pedo scene if you make it one in your head. Sex is just as much a political weapons as the sword , most of us forget that our leaders are humans with urges as well , and thoes appetites can cause more trouble than most could ever imagine. Look at where it leaves Robert Bartheron, all three Lannister children, and even John Snow(Who i still think is Rheagar Tagaryen's son.....). Some times you cut , and other times you fuck your way to the throne.

The rapes at Harrenhal , did indeed serve a purpose, to show that despite the change in ownership , Bolton is no less dangerous than Gregor Clegane, possibily moreso for Arya Stark. The Boltons were only allied to Robb Stark through hostage and custom, and the fact that the Starks sworn houses out numbered them, there was no real love for the Starks for Roose Bolton.

I still think that they are amazing works of fiction.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-01 04:20am

And , yes its the Wars of the Roses retold, but the best stories are still the classics. The way its done is subtle , but the addition of Danrys, her dragons, the Nights Watch and Wildings and the Others, all combine to create an original setting and adventure, that has more to offer than the staid English history of the War's of the Roses.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-01 05:23am

Sokar wrote:Hmmm........I didnt see any of this when I read the books. For me all the characters wer very three dimensional , including Sansa Stark. Sansa is 12, and in VERY short order shes forced into a situation she has no experience or training for. Ned and Catlyn Stark are the polar opposites of Bartherons and Lannisters, and once it all goes to hell in Kings Landing, what is a girl supposed to do?

I'm not saying Sansa had a whole lot of options on what she could do, but there is absolutely no excuse for her utterly idiotic naive behavior even after she had been repeatedly betrayed and lied to. This is completely unforgiveable on the author's part. Children may be stupid sometimes, but not that stupid.
Some of the other characters are too one or two-dimensional simply because of lack of exposure so far. I like the Hound, Jon Snow, Tyrion and Arya Stark best so far, followed by Dany and Ser Barristan. Jaime Lannister is also finally showing some actual character development.
The main complaint about the female characters is that they are simply male personalities in female bodies, i.e. they think and act like we (men) think women think and act, when the truth would be different. This from a female friend of mine who writes for a living, so she knows what she is talking about. She went on at quite some length about Martin's books too, and I mostly agreed with her, there weren't any flaws in her arguments.

Sokar wrote:Yes Dany was raped, but what your reading about was common place for young princesses who would be married off as soon as physically/emotionaly possible, and if Danrys as a younggirl bothers you just add some mental pubes, its only a pedo scene if you make it one in your head.

The fact that it was commonplace once upon a time in our world and that it also happens to a character in the book does not mean that we must have graphic descriptions of the actual act in the text. What happens is not the issue, it fits perfectly into the book and is expected, but the gory details are utterly extraneous.

Sokar wrote:Sex is just as much a political weapons as the sword , most of us forget that our leaders are humans with urges as well , and thoes appetites can cause more trouble than most could ever imagine. Look at where it leaves Robert Bartheron, all three Lannister children, and even John Snow(Who i still think is Rheagar Tagaryen's son.....). Some times you cut , and other times you fuck your way to the throne.

Jon Snow is not Rhaegar Targaryen's son, it is explicitly stated that he looks the image of Ned Stark, and it was Ned's sister who Rhaegar raped anyway, not Jon's mother. That said, yes, I'm not disputing the point about sex as a tool in politics. It happens, and if I were to write a book, there would be an element of that in it. Doesn't mean I have to revel in things that are consistently frowned upon nowadays. There's a tasteful way of doing things and a tasteless way of doing things, and Martin has an unfortunate tendency to indulge in the latter a bit too often.

Sokar wrote:The rapes at Harrenhal , did indeed serve a purpose, to show that despite the change in ownership , Bolton is no less dangerous than Gregor Clegane, possibily moreso for Arya Stark. The Boltons were only allied to Robb Stark through hostage and custom, and the fact that the Starks sworn houses out numbered them, there was no real love for the Starks for Roose Bolton.

The charming personality of Roose Bolton and just how dangerous he was was quite adequately and even more chillingly expressed in several other instances, as well as what the political scenario was, and the rape scene (even though mentioned just in passing) was completely extraneous and simply disgusting.

Sokar wrote:I still think that they are amazing works of fiction.

Yes, it's still some of the best fantasy there is, and the plot is amazing, in both depth and complexity while still being not too complex to follow. But his gratuitous, graphic (and ultimately misogynistic, many of them) sex scenes detract from the enjoyability. If you want similar stuff in the way of scenes, read Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, there's some fucking sick stuff in there, and Martin is doing the same thing. The difference is that Martin's books have an actual excellent plot, a lot more (and a lot more believable) characters and Martin has a lot less of the graphic, gory details, but that those gory details are there (even when they do not serve the plot, if they do, then it's okay) indicates something of a similarity between their attitudes. Goodkind is a sick, twisted fuck, my assessment of Martin on that score is still pending (though the preliminary results don't look good) and he does write good books (bar that one aspects I've been bitching here about).

No complaints about the plot on my part, I think it kicks ass too and I'm not familiar with the details of the War of the Roses in any case. Just pointing out that it is taken directly from history and modified.

Edi

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-04-01 07:01am

Oh, good. Excellant news.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-01 12:46pm

I have some tg books if anyone wants to buy them. autographed, mint.

as for song of ice and fire, hell, I figure all the sexual nastiness is appropriate for the world its in - the dark ages.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-01 05:34pm

Jon Snow is not Rhaegar Targaryen's son, it is explicitly stated that he looks the image of Ned Stark, and it was Ned's sister who Rhaegar raped anyway, not Jon's mother.

I call bullshit. At every turn , from Catlyn Stark on down , they all comment on how Jon Snow, looks NOTHING like Eddard Stark. He's taller and more slender than the Stark boys, and he even has pale eyes, admittedly not the lavender of the Valaryian blood of the pure Targaryns, but neiether are they the deep brown of the Starks of Winterfell. Add in the fact that Ned would not even tell Catlyn who the mother was, says something for the origins of Jon Snow. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Bartheron, but was caputered and raped by Rheagar before they could be married. IMHO she concieved, and was taken south to the Mountains of Dorne where she bore Jon, last of the Targaryen blood. Lyannas dying wish was for Ned to protect Jon, mainly from Robert , who had killed every Targaryen child he could lay hands on in an attempt to ensure no future challenges to the throne. In order to do that he claimed Jon as his bastard offspring and returned with him to Winterfell.

thats just my opinion though, we'll see how it all turns out as the next books arrive.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-04-01 06:18pm

Of course, Jon abdicated whatever claim to the throne he may have had when he joined the Night's Watch.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-01 07:08pm

Don't be so certain, the oaths of the Nights Watch does foreswear any claim to a persons prior lands or titles, as seen by Maester Aemon, Uncle to the last Dragon King, Arys II. However I dont think the Nights Watch as we know it will be the same organization by the end of the next book, not with Jon Snow as Lord Commander and the presence of Stannis Bartheron in the North. Add in the threat of the Others and things are going to be very dicey. Hell by the end of "Storm of Swords" , things are SO fucked up in the Seven Kingdoms I really have no idea what the hell is going to happen.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-02 01:20am

Sokar wrote:I call bullshit. At every turn , from Catlyn Stark on down , they all comment on how Jon Snow, looks NOTHING like Eddard Stark. He's taller and more slender than the Stark boys, and he even has pale eyes, admittedly not the lavender of the Valaryian blood of the pure Targaryns, but neiether are they the deep brown of the Starks of Winterfell. Add in the fact that Ned would not even tell Catlyn who the mother was, says something for the origins of Jon Snow.

What of Ashara Dayne? Besides, I remember a part where Caitlyn Stark was specifically angry that Jon Snow, who was not her son, looked more like Eddard Stark than did Rob, Bran or Rikkon. The thing is, Rob, Bran and Rikkon all looked more like their Tully relatives and Caitlyn than Eddard, while Jon snow, apart from the eyes, looked like Eddard. You also forget that Ashara Dayne of Starfall was one of the blonde, gray-eyed types. It was all spelled out quite clearly, including how Eddard Stark specifically ordered his servants to shut up about Jon's origins when they started talking rumors about Ashara being his mother and Caitlyn confronted Eddard about it. All the bullshit here is yours, deal with it.

Sokar wrote:Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Bartheron, but was caputered and raped by Rheagar before they could be married. IMHO she concieved, and was taken south to the Mountains of Dorne where she bore Jon, last of the Targaryen blood. Lyannas dying wish was for Ned to protect Jon, mainly from Robert , who had killed every Targaryen child he could lay hands on in an attempt to ensure no future challenges to the throne. In order to do that he claimed Jon as his bastard offspring and returned with him to Winterfell.

thats just my opinion though, we'll see how it all turns out as the next books arrive.

In my not so humble opinion, that's just a flight of fancy. I don't remember what Lyanna's dying wish was, but she sure as hell did not bear a child for Rhaegar. Eddard found her dying of the abuse Rhaegar had inflicted on her. There is also the inconvenient fact of Daenerys Targaryen (and her now dead brother, Viserys) that argues rather strongly against Jon being the "last" of the Targaryen line (particularly how he hasn't a drop of their blood in the first place).

Edi

PrinceofLowLight · Post by **PrinceofLowLight** » 2003-04-03 07:56pm

www.westeros.org has some very good stuff when it comes to these arguments in the Citadel section. A lot of this stuff doesn't occur to you the first time you read it, as the books are just really fucking complicated. Awesome, but complicated.

As for the sex and violence, that's just accounting for taste. None of it is really gratuitous and all of it contributed to the book. Would **INSANELY MASSIVE SPOILERS**Shae's betrayal, and killing by, Tyrion have been as intense and shockking without their scenes? The various rapes Arya witnesses when wandering the Riverlands help establish the enivironment very well. Were they necessary? Of course not, but what is? Do they add something? Definitely. Is it necessary to mention a character's eye color? No, but it doesn't hurt anything.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-04-04 02:13am

PrinceofLowLight wrote:www.westeros.org has some very good stuff when it comes to these arguments in the Citadel section. A lot of this stuff doesn't occur to you the first time you read it, as the books are just really fucking complicated. Awesome, but complicated.

Umm, not especially. Yes, there are several subplots going on all at once. Yes, there's political backstabbing and infighting and shifting alliances. Yes, there are new twists that can be quite unexpected at times. But very complicated? No. Somewhat, but nothing an organised mind can't deal with without any notable difficulties. I can keep the events straight and keep track of them with relative ease. I won't maybe remember each and every exact minor detail in a story of some (to date) 3000 pages, but the big lines yes, and the important details yes.

PrinceofLowLight wrote:As for the sex and violence, that's just accounting for taste. None of it is really gratuitous and all of it contributed to the book. Would **INSANELY MASSIVE SPOILERS**Shae's betrayal, and killing by, Tyrion have been as intense and shockking without their scenes? The various rapes Arya witnesses when wandering the Riverlands help establish the enivironment very well. Were they necessary? Of course not, but what is? Do they add something? Definitely. Is it necessary to mention a character's eye color? No, but it doesn't hurt anything.

The scenes with Shae and Tyrion were hardly gratuitous, because I don't remember a single one of those that weren't accompanied by a lot of musing on Tyrion's part about a whole lot of things. In them, with Tyrion being the POV character, they were often used to lead to reflections on his past and thus served in opening up and building the character for the reader. Most of the stuff that Arya sees is superfluous with regard to actual plot and/or character development. I don't mind having the events there, but it can be handled just as well as stating that the rapes happen. There is no need to actually dwell on the details like Martin does too much. The difference between a scene that serves the plot in some meaningful way and a scene added just for kicks with no particular purpose beside that is very significant. Then again, given how a big chunk of the target audience is teenage males, it's not much of a concern to him. He'll get his books sold anyway.

Edi