a few wh40k questions

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a few wh40k questions

Post by dragon » 2008-08-12 02:46am

After several of the omnibuses and others a few more questions pop to mind.
1. What is the most powerfull ship for the imperials.

2. Several times power swords and power guantlet are mentioned as being very powerfull but a majority of the space marines use chain swords. Is there a reason why power swords are uncommon? Are they difficult to make?

3. In the ultramarine omnibus one of the dark eldar had literaly took a person apart are then reassemabled them is this just a eldar ability or can the imperium able to do something similar?

4. At the end of the ultramarine omni the two marines board the demonic ship to get away and then the book ends. Do they esacpe and make it home?
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Post by DrStrangelove » 2008-08-12 05:36am

1. other than ancient relics that i have only limited knowledge of, either a retribution or apocalypse class battle ship. retributions having a very heavy battery of guns and torpedoes the size of a small skyscraper, apocalypses mounting a heavy battery of lances and a nova cannon.
2. they are not especially rare chainswords just cheaper and almost as good
3.nope i think the best the IoM can do is cybernetics
4. apparently they do in the next book, which just came out not too long ago.



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Post by Dominus » 2008-08-12 06:57am

1. As has been mentioned, Apocalypse battleships certainly excel at killing other capital ships and at orbital bombardment - given the estimated yields of lance battery strikes, this is not surprising - with their extraordinarily powerful lances, but their average gun decks means that they are somewhat less than ideal against a fast and flighty foe who benefits from holofields, like the Eldar. The Retribution is more of a classic gunboat armed with powerful batteries, decent-strength and long-ranged lances, and strong torpedoes coupled with an armored prow. The recently released Ark Mechanicus-class battleship also seems to be a gunship in the mold of the Retribution, albeit with a heavier lance armament and a Nova Cannon instead of prow torpedoes and outfitted with more advanced technology than what is normally available to Imperial Navy ships.

The Emperor-class battleship is more of a dedicated carrier meant to hang back and launch wave after wave of attack craft. It is, however, very well equipped with gun batteries, able to fire a salvo nearly equal in power to that of the Retribution to each side with a very long range, or an overwhelming broadside combining prow, dorsal, and port/starboard weapon batteries should it need to.

And of course, Space Marine battlebarges also mount powerful gun decks (which lack the range of the other Imperial battleships, however), torpedoes, and short-ranged but ridiculously powerful bombardment cannons that can ravage enemy ships. They are also extremely heavily armored and well shielded, and carry Thunderhawk attack craft.

4. Yes, Uriel and Pasanius do escape, and return to Ultramar on the last page of the fourth book, The Killing Ground, after their journey takes a detour of sorts.
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Re: a few wh40k questions

Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-08-12 06:15pm

dragon wrote: 2. Several times power swords and power guantlet are mentioned as being very powerfull but a majority of the space marines use chain swords. Is there a reason why power swords are uncommon? Are they difficult to make?

3. In the ultramarine omnibus one of the dark eldar had literaly took a person apart are then reassemabled them is this just a eldar ability or can the imperium able to do something similar?
2. This is the Imperium of Man. Anything more technologically advanced than a basic lasgun is uncommon. Many power weapons and the like are handed down from veteran to veteran. A good example of this is Idrael giving Uriel his powersword in the short story which begins the Ultramarines omnibus. Uriel later forges his own powersword when Idrael's is broken. This indicates that they can still be made, but they are not mass produced, rather they are works of art, each lovingly crafted by the master artisans and forge masters of the chapter. Also, they are a sign of rank. Space Marines tend to accumulate more and more goodies as their carrier continues, power weapons and fists being some of those objects.

3. The dissembling of persons and reassembling is a result more in the extreme amount of practice and specialization of the Dark Eldar. Torture and the inflicting of pain are some of their base traits, meaning much effort and research in those area, accompanied by technological sophistication. Other cultures have somewhat similar abilities, just not as advanced. If you remember, in the third book of the Ultramarines omnibus, the Savage Morticians of the Iron Warrior faction lead by Honsou is able to make horrible conglomerations of body parts and bestow life to them. Also, they show an ability to keep victims alive long past the point of natural death, an example being the Iron Warrior cut up clowly and forced to watch himself fed to a grinder. Also, the Nightlords in the short story Chains of Command which starts the Ultramarines omnibus display multilated Space Marines as trophies. The injuries done to the Ultramarines are such that they would kill even a Marine and yet they live. The Imperium, on the other hand, really hasn't shown ay abilities similar to the Dark Eldars and Savage Morticians. They do have some technologies focused on medical revival, healing, and life sustainment, but not many, and not nearly as potent as the applied torture techniques of the Dark Eldar and Savage Morticians.

I hope that answers some of your questions. I tried to use examples from the Ultramarine books so that you can go look at what i refer too.
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Re: a few wh40k questions

Post by Stormbringer » 2008-08-12 09:09pm

dragon wrote:2. Several times power swords and power guantlet are mentioned as being very powerfull but a majority of the space marines use chain swords. Is there a reason why power swords are uncommon? Are they difficult to make?
Power weapons in general are pretty easily made for something so high tech. Of course not all them are equal. But the basic technology to create, build, and maintain them is common enough. Looking at the books, quite a few people have and carry them; even more could if they so chose.

One reason they're not more common is that, relative to a chainsword, they are definitely more complex even for a simple design a like a sword, let alone a lighting claw. The Imperium puts a premium on reliable, low maintenance technology. They only really issue them en-masse to specialists like Terminators or Veteran Assualt Troops or office bodyguards.

Secondly, they are pretty much as common as they need to be. Read the books and you'll see what a marine weight chainsword will to even flak armored human beings and it's pretty damn devestating. You don't need a power sword to utterly mess up a guy when you're a Space Marine. For the rest, your average Guardsman isn't going to need a sword of any sort so carrying a relatively expensive, complex weapon isn't going to help.
Lord Relvenous wrote:2. This is the Imperium of Man. Anything more technologically advanced than a basic lasgun is uncommon.
That's a pretty stupid statement and is really contradicted by the second part of your statement. Sure much of the technology is created and maintained more by rote than with total understanding. But a lot of high technology from power weapons to warp drives are relatively mass produced and are pretty common.
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Post by Jaevric » 2008-08-12 09:19pm

I will point out that while taking someone apart and putting them back together biologically is impossible for the Imperium, the IoM can do amazing things with cybernetics when it wants to. Though your average Guard grunt isn't going to be completely rebuilt, someone more valuable like a ship's captain or an Inquisitor is a different matter.

For that matter, Eisenhorn has a replacement hand cloned and attached, so at least some cloning of bodyparts is possible. It's just that cybernetics are a lot more common, possibly faster and cheaper.

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Post by Pulp Hero » 2008-08-12 10:22pm

I know that non-STC high technology is forbidden (unless its really useful), I wonder though what the beliefs around bio-tech cloning are. Obviously the IoM doesn't have a problem with it (its how Space Marines are made afterall), but I just wonder about the wonky beliefs that must go with it.
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Re: a few wh40k questions

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-12 10:47pm

dragon wrote:
3. In the ultramarine omnibus one of the dark eldar had literaly took a person apart are then reassemabled them is this just a eldar ability or can the imperium able to do something similar?
Similar acts can be done Imperium. A criminal in the Ravenor series literally smuggled himself out as body parts in different couriers and then hunted down the couriers to reassemble himself (his brain, of course, was implanted in a new body and that's how he was able to act). It is however extremely rare and expensive, requiring technology and skills that are not common in the Imperium.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-13 01:04am

1.) The most powerful "common" battleship is probably the largest, the Emperor Class (given relative to frigates/destroyers in BFG I estimate they're maybe 9-10 km long at least, and with their rectangular nature they will have even greater volume, even with their huge-ass carrier capacity.)

There are probably larger ships (Inquisitional battleships, AdMech battleships, the "rare/freakish" vessels that are 16-20+ km long mentioned in a few sources, and so on and so forth) and they are arguably as powerful/more poweful, but ther'e's going to be way more Emperor class than any of those.

2.) There are three reasons I can think of:

- Chainswords are "lower tech" and this means that they are going to be relatively easier to maintain and repair "in the field" than power weapons. THey may also (aguably) require less energy to operate (depending on model - some power weapons have a significant thermal effect.) or are powered in a more easily recharged manner.

- Chainswords are more "brute force" - that is they rely as much on raw power as they do on their chainsaw effect to brutalize. In some ways they almost seem to rely as m uch on a bludgeoning effect as they do on any cutting/tearing/ripping effect. Power swords (Again depending on mode) with thier "power field" can rely less on such eeffects (indeed, brute force may not help any or limit damage - you can make a very "clean" cut with a power weapon, much as you could with a lightsaber.)

- Chainswords have a huuge psychological benefit to them. They're large, menacing looking, noisy and when they hit something they make a great mess as well as inflicting horrific wounds. Much like bolters, really. In their role as Shock/assault/terror troops, such features can be of great benefit to the Astartes (especially against enemies who might be cowed easily, like rebels and cultists.)

Mind you, because a Chainsword is "lower" tech than a power weapon does not neccesarily mean its going to be "less effective." Given that your standard Marine's close combat weapon is a mono-edged knife, I imagine Chainswords have some very sharp bits too (especially when you also consider that Astartes models, IIRC, tend to use adamantium in the construction.) With their chainsaw effect, mono-edeged blades, and an Astartes strength, you can do quite a bit of damage with any chain weapon.

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Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-08-13 02:11am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Mind you, because a Chainsword is "lower" tech than a power weapon does not neccesarily mean its going to be "less effective." Given that your standard Marine's close combat weapon is a mono-edged knife, I imagine Chainswords have some very sharp bits too (especially when you also consider that Astartes models, IIRC, tend to use adamantium in the construction.) With their chainsaw effect, mono-edeged blades, and an Astartes strength, you can do quite a bit of damage with any chain weapon.
The individual teeth of a chain blade, at least for Space Marines, have the same 'monomolecular edges' that their combat knives do. They aren't necessarily adamantium, not that it matters - their combat knives are made out of layered carbon* and can reasonably be stuck all the way through concrete.

*This is from the Movie Space Marine article, so it's a fairly dubious a piece of information.
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Post by dragon » 2008-08-13 02:28am

New question.

4. Just finished the first book in the Eisenhorn omni and was wondering about the aliens and their tetrascapes, is there any more info on who and what they are?

5. Also the demon Eisenhorn runs into literally catches rounds from a storm bolter in mid air that was fired by the alien hunter marine, then the demon verbally dismisses the marine as a waste of his time. Who is this demon and is the ability to cathes bolter shells common?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-13 03:41am

dragon wrote:New question.

4. Just finished the first book in the Eisenhorn omni and was wondering about the aliens and their tetrascapes, is there any more info on who and what they are?
Not in any other source I've encountered. Keep in mind there are a shitload of minor alien species that don't get army lists and fig lines and some of them are nasty pieces of work (the Slaugh for example).
5. Also the demon Eisenhorn runs into literally catches rounds from a storm bolter in mid air that was fired by the alien hunter marine, then the demon verbally dismisses the marine as a waste of his time. Who is this demon and is the ability to cathes bolter shells common?
His name is Cherubeal and he is a daemon prince, which is a broad class of entities that possess individual identities and have power levels ranging from significantly superior to lesser daemons to greater daemon level. Telekinetically catching bolter shells and other projectiles is a cool trick that some human (and alien) psykers can do. Cherubeal is a nasty piece of work and that's not even close to his most impressive feat.
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Post by dragon » 2008-08-13 03:59am

Are there any books where Demons are the main characters?
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-08-13 04:46am

dragon wrote:Are there any books where Demons are the main characters?
I think Daemonworld, but don't quote me on that.
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Post by Kuja » 2008-08-13 02:48pm

I don't think there are any books where you could classify the daemon as a main character. At best they serve strong supporting roles, such as Ss'll Sh'kar in the aforementioned Daemonworld or Cherubael in the Eisenhorn series.
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Re: a few wh40k questions

Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-08-13 03:01pm

[quote="Stormbringer]
Lord Relvenous wrote:2. This is the Imperium of Man. Anything more technologically advanced than a basic lasgun is uncommon.
That's a pretty stupid statement and is really contradicted by the second part of your statement. Sure much of the technology is created and maintained more by rote than with total understanding. But a lot of high technology from power weapons to warp drives are relatively mass produced and are pretty common.[/quote]

Hmm, i can't agree with you on that. Warp drives are stated as a military use item only, merchant traders rely almost exclusively on relativistic flight. Normal citizens will never travel trhough the warp, and in fact, its implied the military will only make a warp flight if its really needed. (This whoel paragraph was taken from the fluff section of the Dark Heresy rulebook). Also, the higher up tech that you speak is hardly ever made, most of the time and effort associated with it is keeping it together and working. Plasma guns, something every chapter has and uses, are still regarded as ancient and holy artifacts. Just because something is used consistently int he 40k universe does not mean it is easy to obtain new supplies for said object, thus making it uncommon. The lasgun for infantry is about the most technologically advanced weapon that is mass produced. Even bolter rounds are extremely rare and hard to get for someone not an Inquisitor, planetary govenor, or Astartes.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-13 03:26pm

All I can say is you apparently didn't read Dark HEresy well enough (if at all- you may just be goign by what you hear others say), because all you said is patently false.

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Re: a few wh40k questions

Post by Kuja » 2008-08-13 03:31pm

Lord Relvenous wrote:Hmm, i can't agree with you on that. Warp drives are stated as a military use item only, merchant traders rely almost exclusively on relativistic flight. Normal citizens will never travel trhough the warp, and in fact, its implied the military will only make a warp flight if its really needed. (This whoel paragraph was taken from the fluff section of the Dark Heresy rulebook).
Bull. This is contradicted almost constantly in the novels and this paragraph is full of it.

Rogue traders in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies all use warp drives.

So do the rogue traders in the Rogue Star series.

An entire flotilla of traders makes repeated warp jumps in Legacy.

The Last Chancers hop around all over the place.

As do the Valhallan 597th.

Pilgrims book passage to a shrine world in Dark Adeptus.


40k is replete with examples of people in every spectrum making warp jumps, which means this DH bit either needs to get flung out the window or it's an in-universe piece downplaying the reliance of the Imperium on the Warp.
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Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-08-13 03:48pm

Congrats. As basis for your arguments, you presented
1. Rogue traders
Yeah, some of the richest and most powerful civilians in existence. If they can get Warp Drives, obviously everyone can. :roll:

2. Military units. I never said they didn't have them. I said they didn't like to use them.

3. Pilgrims. Again, people who can afford the enormous price of offworld passage.

I'm at work right now or i would pull the quotes straight out of the Dark Heresy book, but all my points are supported by it. Granted i sadi "normal citizens will never make a travel through the warp", but Rogue Traders and Pilgrims are not normal citizens.
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Post by Lord Relvenous » 2008-08-13 03:51pm

Ghetto edit: in about 5 hours, i'll be able to get the exact quotes i'm talking about. I can give a little bit of off the top of my head stuff though.

1. Merchant ships not using warp drives: This is exactly where void-born come from. Whole lives are spents on merchant ships as they travel from one system to the next using STL speeds. Whole generations are born and die during these trips.

2. Military using the warp. Again, this is mentioned that the warp is an extremely dangerous place and that a captain that considers using it has a very good reason for doing so. The military has it, they just don't like it.
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Post by Block » 2008-08-13 04:54pm

Lord Relvenous wrote:Ghetto edit: in about 5 hours, i'll be able to get the exact quotes i'm talking about. I can give a little bit of off the top of my head stuff though.

1. Merchant ships not using warp drives: This is exactly where void-born come from. Whole lives are spents on merchant ships as they travel from one system to the next using STL speeds. Whole generations are born and die during these trips.

2. Military using the warp. Again, this is mentioned that the warp is an extremely dangerous place and that a captain that considers using it has a very good reason for doing so. The military has it, they just don't like it.
Even travelling in the Warp takes time. It's not instantaneous. So to ply the trade routes one could still be Void-born, never see a planet and still travel the warp.

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Post by Academia Nut » 2008-08-13 05:03pm

I think you're mixing up Navigator aided Warp travel, which is what the military and Rogue Traders and such use because it is a couple of orders of magnitude faster than the other option: hopping through the Warp without a Navigator. That method requires lots of small jumps along pre-set routes which makes it slow and dangerous as pirates can ambush you at the stop off points.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-13 05:04pm

Lord Relvenous wrote:Congrats. As basis for your arguments, you presented
3. Pilgrims. Again, people who can afford the enormous price of offworld passage.
This alone is worth mockery. I suggest you read "Dark Adeptus" for an exaple of Pilgrim ships in action and just how "wealthy" they are, :lol:

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-13 05:19pm

Since you referenced Dark HEresy, Its obvious youo've missed a great many points in the book and misinterpreted how Chartist vessels work:

1.) "slower than light" travel is handled separately, apart from the Chartist captains.

2.) Chartist vessels are specified to take "years" or "decades" along their courses. In case you didn't remember, Imperial worlds can be separated by tens or HUNDREDS of light years, some even thousands. Trade across such distances is flat out impossible.

3) the Misericorde. It navigates between several different planets, and its course takes a year. Again, impossible with STL travel.


And further, its obviosu you didn't read the following material for Dark Hery, such as the Inquisitor's Handbook:

Page 157
Operating without Navigators or Astropaths (luxuries normally affordable only to the military or planetary governments), they rely on carefully maintained star charts to make journeys from point to point. Some of these maps cover paths of relative safety for warp travle and must be followed precisely. This often means extremely cautious routes, such that a linear path of tens of light years might entail dozens of jumps totallying hundreds of light years of travel.

As if that weren't enough, ,you've evidently not been ever reading any of my analysis works, because I've mentioned repeatedly that the old Rogue Trader stuff (as well as Battlefleet Gothic) make mention of non-astropathic/Navigator travel, and they can do it by computers (albeit over no further than 4-5 light years, meaning its incredibly slow.)

so, yeah, you CAN Navigate without an astropath or navigator.

As a parting shot, we SAW a Planetary Governor using some form of FTL navigation in the first Rogue Trader novel (he jumped between system to system to fight Lucian and with the Tau.)

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-13 05:56pm

Yes you can cross the warp without a Navigator. How do you think Orks and Tau get anywhere?

We really need to add a section on warp travel without Navigator assistance to the 40K sticky. This keeps on coming up over and over again.
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