[40k] scouts and black carapace

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Feil
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[40k] scouts and black carapace

Post by Feil » 2008-07-27 07:04pm

At what age do scout Marines generally receive the Black Carapace? And when does it become functional?

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Post by Cykeisme » 2008-07-28 11:39am

You've probably read a lot more than most of us.. but Space Marines usually become full Battle Brothers in their early twenties, don't they?

I'm sure you're familiar with the source at <uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2>, which states that the Black Carapace matures within "a few months" of initial implantation. Of course, this doesn't tell us when exactly it's implanted, but at least we have a timeframe from implantation to readiness.

The only other useful thing I can think of (still assumption) is that the carapace probably won't be implanted until the Space Marine's sketetal structure and musculature has grown to full size.
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Post by Azazal » 2008-07-28 11:59am

Depends on the chapter and the initiate. Some get their carapace as early as 15 or 16, other as late as 20 to 21. GW used to have the IA article on marine creation online, but with their new and "improved" web site, they took it down. I can look it up when I get home from work
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Post by Cykeisme » 2008-07-28 12:12pm

IIRC, the Astartes transformation is essentially an enhancement and modification of the natural puberty process, which is the reason why hopefuls need to be taken at a young age.
If this is the case, won't the process end at the natural end of puberty?

Admittedly, the age at which puberty biologically ends may vary wildly in the 41st millenium, considering we have strains of humans actually experiencing significant selective pressure for several tens of millenia in hostile environments, like the ones on deathworlds that many Chapters are fond of recruiting from.
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Re: [40k] scouts and black carapace

Post by Annatar Giftbringer » 2008-07-28 12:50pm

Feil wrote:At what age do scout Marines generally receive the Black Carapace? And when does it become functional?
Straigthly from memory, but I believe that the black carapace is only received when the scout earns the right to become a full-worthy battle-brother, so some may never get it and others very soon. Someone not wearing Astartes power armour have no real need of the black carapace, so I don't believe they insert it into anyone until they are ready to be promoted to initiates.
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Post by Dartzap » 2008-07-28 01:08pm

Azazal wrote:Depends on the chapter and the initiate. Some get their carapace as early as 15 or 16, other as late as 20 to 21. GW used to have the IA article on marine creation online, but with their new and "improved" web site, they took it down. I can look it up when I get home from work
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Post by Azazal » 2008-07-28 01:23pm

Dartzap wrote:
Azazal wrote:Depends on the chapter and the initiate. Some get their carapace as early as 15 or 16, other as late as 20 to 21. GW used to have the IA article on marine creation online, but with their new and "improved" web site, they took it down. I can look it up when I get home from work
Still there, far as I can see :)
YEAH!! long live GW-UK, the US site is for shit.

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-07-29 07:07pm

IIRC, the carapace is implanted before an acolyte becomes a Scout, but takes a while to bed in properly.

Someone might wanna archive those UK-only articles, by the way; I think the intent is to eventually have all the different national sites be mostly the same, in the style of the US site.
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Post by Cykeisme » 2008-07-31 08:34pm

andrewgpaul wrote:IIRC, the carapace is implanted before an acolyte becomes a Scout, but takes a while to bed in properly.

Someone might wanna archive those UK-only articles, by the way; I think the intent is to eventually have all the different national sites be mostly the same, in the style of the US site.
As stated in the second post on this thread, this page <http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2> indicates that the Black Carapace takes a "few months" to be ready for use after implantation.


@Annatar: I'm pretty sure all the implants are put in on a schedule, that has to be completed roughly before initiate reaches puberty, and it includes the Black Carapace; afaik they all receive the Black Carapace, independent of when (or whether) they have become full Battle Brothers.
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Post by Annatar Giftbringer » 2008-08-02 10:52am

Cykeisme wrote:

@Annatar: I'm pretty sure all the implants are put in on a schedule, that has to be completed roughly before initiate reaches puberty, and it includes the Black Carapace; afaik they all receive the Black Carapace, independent of when (or whether) they have become full Battle Brothers.
Yeah, I just re-read the article on the UK website, and it does indeed seem that every marine-to-be gets the carapace, and it's the last of the nineteen phases of upgrades that they receive.

It also sounds like it shouldn't be introduced until after the scout/neophyte has stopped growing - or perhaps the black carapace grows with the body of the scout.


Here's the relevant quote on BC:
GW UK Website wrote:Phase 19 – Black Carapace. This is the last and the most distinctive implant. It looks like a film of black plastic when it's growing in the tanks. This is removed from its culture-solution and cut into sheets which are implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso. Within a few hours the tissue expands, hardens on the outside, and sends invasive neural bundles deep inside the Marine. After several months the carapace will have fully matured and the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and transfusion points cut into the hardened carapace. These artificial 'plug-in' points mesh with features integral to the powered armour, such as the monitoring, medicinal and maintenance units. Without the benefit of a black carapace, a Space Marine's armour is relatively useless.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-02 11:35am

It could also depend on the Chapter, since the implantation procedures for Scouts until they become Space Marines seem to vary from Chapter to Chapter.

It may also be that even within a chapter there is some variation. For example in the William King Space Wolf novels, IIRC, Ragnar did not actually serve as a "Scout" (in the way we know Scouts to be, at least) but never served "in the field" until he was implanted. (I also remember a Space Wolf Short story where the Space wolf Scouts had actual power armor.)

Likeiwse, vaguely going back to the "ahem" Blood Angels novels, I don't recall the protagonist there actually having any period as being a scout.

Then again, I do know that some scouts are described as wearing "semi-powered" Carapace (the so called "Scout armour" I believe - looking on the GW sitehere mentions them wearing Carapace, so again it may depend on the Chapter and resources) in some novels like "Crimson Tears". We may view this as a kind of "light" Power armor (which does exist as well as per Dark Heresy) which may mean that in order to use it they need a black carapace. (IF they use regular carapace, and it is unpowered, ,then they may not.)

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Post by Hawkwings » 2008-08-02 02:27pm

The scout power armor would probably be similar to the power armor used by mundane humans and the sisters of battle.
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Post by Aaron » 2008-08-02 04:13pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
It may also be that even within a chapter there is some variation. For example in the William King Space Wolf novels, IIRC, Ragnar did not actually serve as a "Scout" (in the way we know Scouts to be, at least) but never served "in the field" until he was implanted. (I also remember a Space Wolf Short story where the Space wolf Scouts had actual power armor.)
Space Wolf also seems to compress the timeline for implants as well, it's vague but I got the impression that from selection to Blood Claw was at best 2-3 years.
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Post by Annatar Giftbringer » 2008-08-02 06:12pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
It may also be that even within a chapter there is some variation. For example in the William King Space Wolf novels, IIRC, Ragnar did not actually serve as a "Scout" (in the way we know Scouts to be, at least) but never served "in the field" until he was implanted. (I also remember a Space Wolf Short story where the Space wolf Scouts had actual power armor.)
Well, Space Wolves, unlike codex chapters, don't let their pups starts as scouts. Instead the young ones are organized into packs, and the members of each pack stays the same throughout its life, so casualties are not replaced by new marines.

There are two ways for a warrior to leave the pack, he may be chosen to join the Wolf Guard, or he may become a scout (death is not an option :)). The Wolf Guard is the Space Wolf version of 1st company, with the exception that each Wolf Lord (Company master) has his own personal Guard, with up to 20 Wolf Guards per Great Company.

The Space Wolf Scouts are those amongst the SW that don't quite fit with the pack mentality of the rest of the chapter, so they are organized into scout units that basically does everything normal SM scouts do, but the difference is that SW scouts are some of the best warriors in the chapter, and some of them may choose from regular Space Marine weapon options in lieau of normal scout equipment.

The newly formed pack starts out as Blood Claws, specializing in assault and close combat roles. When looking at their stats compared to regular SM, they are accually worse than regular scouts (the first combat rank of codex chapters), but wear full power armour and carry chainswords and bolt pistols, as well as having the option of equipping themselves with jump packs or bikes. So, unlike regular marines, and especially Blood Angels, the assault troops of a SW company are accually the worst fighters, something they partially make up for with their berserk rage that gives them +2 attacks when charging instead of the regular +1.

As the pack matures and gains experience, they will eventually change into grey hunters, basically Space Wolf tactical squads, with the minor change that they have not organic heavy weapon support and their standard armament is sword & gun, however the pistol may be exchanged for a bolter, and they all have the 'true grit' ability, allowing them to use the bolter as an additional close combat weapon, so they are still very nasty in close combat.

Finally, the pack changes role one more time, this time to something called Long Fangs. These are the heavy support troopers, and since each squad has worked and lived together for a very long time, they are VERY good at working together. Of course, by the time the pack reaches long fang status, casualties and members becoming scouts or wolf guard will have taken its toll, and a long fang unit is (almost) always smaller than a grey hunter pack, which in turn is smaller than a blood claw pack.

Phew, that was a very long-winded way of saying that it's not at all weird that a Wolf lord hasn't served as scout, since the scout-period of regular chapters isn't part of Space Wolf training, and a Lord was most likely part of the Great Company's Wolf Guard prior to his rise to Lordship (IIRC when a Wolf Lord dies, the successor is chosen by and from the company's wolf guards). Wolf Guards serve two roles within the company by the way, they may either fight as a squad, or be spread out as veteran sergeants for the packs that make up the company.
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