Chaos corruption/infestation/whatever limits

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Chaos corruption/infestation/whatever limits

Post by Uraniun235 » 2008-06-11 02:16am

Seems like every time there's a vs. thread involving 40K, any time the action gets near the 40K galaxy someone comes around to say "welp, Chaos will subvert them, gg lol".

Is there any non-40K force which would be able to successfully resist, if not ignore, the effects of warp subversion or whatever the hell it is?
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Post by Xon » 2008-06-11 02:29am

Warp Tainting is the result of exposure to the Warp where the user's emotions are permitted to run wild and warp real-space. Chaos Tainting is basicly the same thing but with Chaos demons envolved.

Failing direct imersion into the Warp, a strong Warp<->realspace connection is needed such as a Warp tainted artfact or intelligent being.

It just so happens everyone but the Necron's in WH40k basicly implement FTL travel as traveling though the Warp.

Don't enter the fucking Warp is easily the easiest way to avoid Chaos corruption.
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Post by weemadando » 2008-06-11 02:45am

Chaos subversion is either completely fucking over-powered or under-powered depending on your interpretation of the new Horus Heresy books (which I call AS BULLSHIT).

The old version was that Horus was tempted, succumbed and eventually became the daemon infested, tainted warlord who nearly brought down the Empire.

The new version is that Horus was a totally great guy who got tricked into having a demon bound to him and then turned all evil.

So with the new version, you can either see that as Chaos being weak as it was actually a physical possession that was required to taint someone, or you can see it as being much stronger in that they were able to INSTANTLY overtake the 2nd most powerful person in the Imperium (the first being the Emperor).

Personally, I try and ignore the new books and just follow the old story, but that's no longer canon now. I only wish that we could kill the past 8 years or so of GW canon for 40k, because it's been one shitfest after another.

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-11 03:33am

Err... Ando... The Horus story has always included 'he got possessed after an initiation ritual into a warrior lodge.'

As for chaos; it's worth noting that it's not so hard to deal with; there are sundry working societies that are either part of, and untouched by the Imperium.

The Galactic Empire, in particular, has an advantage, in that it has an Inquisition fully equipped and ready to deal with this kind of thing. While chasing down jedi is somewhat different, morally, the skills, organisation, and equipment are all ready to be used.

Certainly from the times I've asked the question of various studio staff at games day, you must be a psyker to learn sorcery - the lack of psyker genes in a lot of settings would limit this stuff.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2008-06-11 03:42am

I've always argued that SW Stormtroopers would be resistant (albeit not immune) to most taints. They're indoctrinated, highly-disciplined, and loyal - very much like WH40K Space Marines, who are resistant albeit not immune.

While I agree that "chaos corruption lol" is bandied about a little too readily, it is a factor. The whole theme behind it is human nature, and the dark depths the human psyche is capable of exploring and succumbing to. So any time humans are involved in a 40k scenario, it naturally comes up.

Not to wax metaphorical overly much, but it's sort of an allegory for everyday foolishness of human beings - smoking, alcoholism, nepotism, hubris, whatever. Chaos preys upon and amplifies these things to their extremes, so wherever they're found in conjuction with the Warp, the inevitable conclusion must be drawn that some weak-willed individuals will fall into its trap.
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Post by weemadando » 2008-06-11 04:23am

NecronLord wrote:Err... Ando... The Horus story has always included 'he got possessed after an initiation ritual into a warrior lodge.'
Really? Since when? All the early fluff that I can recall from the days of Rogue Trader, 1st and 2nd ed 40k related to Horus being ALREADY corrupted before willingly turning himself into a daemon host.

Horus turned bad. Got Daemon. Got worse.

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Post by Zablorg » 2008-06-11 04:25am

NecronLord wrote:Err... Ando... The Horus story has always included 'he got possessed after an initiation ritual into a warrior lodge.'
I heard he was tainted, rather than possessed. big difference rite?

Anyways, I'd have to go with the stormtroopers. Slight weakening in the warp/realspace veil can cause corruption to manifest, and as far as stormies go, there really isn't much for chaos to go on.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 04:57am

I think one would need to distinguish between physical corruption and warp corruption/possession.

The first appears more akin to a poison or a disease, albeit a supernatural one; one has to be infected by a tainted source or carrier in order for it to work (as per the unlucky soldier in (I think) First and Only who was hit by shrapnel from a corrupted weapon and was turned into the Chaos version of the old Arnie terminator). This appears relatively easy to defend against, as it requires physical contact, but difficult to treat once it manifests, and it can be a factor anywhere, dependent only on what weapons the enemy uses.

Warp infestation, on the other hand, appears to need a connection to the Warp. This could be either through a Psyker, a Chaos cult summoning daemons or somesuch, or merely the physical presence of humans inside the Warp in transit (the last may also require partial Geller field failure; I am not all that up to date on the fluff). Thus, an invading force would be more or less immune to it, unless they have supernatural talents themselves that might be taken to be linked to the Warp or used 40k-esque FTL (in most cases, there would be no reason why they should).

Disclaimer: I am boycotting Games Workshop since they released 7th edition Warhammer, so my information may be dated.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-11 05:22am

Tactica Imperialis indicates that any military force that operates in or near areas heavily affected by Chaos runs a risk of contamination. I'm not sure precisely under what conditions it might happen, but there is an Imperial Guard regiment in that book that steadily falls deeper and deeper into heresy as they fight; after only a few engagements they reach a point where they have to be sterilized from orbit by the Ordo Malleus.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 05:47am

Peptuck wrote:Tactica Imperialis indicates that any military force that operates in or near areas heavily affected by Chaos runs a risk of contamination. I'm not sure precisely under what conditions it might happen, but there is an Imperial Guard regiment in that book that steadily falls deeper and deeper into heresy as they fight; after only a few engagements they reach a point where they have to be sterilized from orbit by the Ordo Malleus.
That still appears explainable as a physical phenomenon. They may be breathing in Chaos-tainted particles or gases, or a few soldiers contracted the disease and then spread it to the rest. What were the more exact circumstances? Did the planet have an atmosphere? Did the soldiers have NBC protection? Were they fighting Chaos foes who might infect them?
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Post by Xon » 2008-06-11 05:58am

I view the physical corruption is a side effect of a realspace <-> Warp connection impressing a Warp connection onto stuff without significant exposure to the Warp.

But either way, Chaos corruption is extremely unlikely in any type of space battle. Actual close quarters combat carries the risk of corruption, but that is from all the Warp tainted material being chucked around.
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Post by Siege » 2008-06-11 08:44am

Darth Hoth wrote:That still appears explainable as a physical phenomenon. They may be breathing in Chaos-tainted particles or gases, or a few soldiers contracted the disease and then spread it to the rest. What were the more exact circumstances? Did the planet have an atmosphere? Did the soldiers have NBC protection? Were they fighting Chaos foes who might infect them?
A similar thing is described in Traitor General, where Gaunt wonders how long it'll take for the Chaos-occuppied planet to 'get to' him and his men:
Traitor General, p.74 wrote:And how long, Gaunt wondered, before it owned him and his men too? He'd read his Ravenor, his Czevak, his Blandishments of Hand. He'd read a double-dozen treatises from the Inquisitorial ordos as recommended by the Commissariat. Chaos always tainted. Fact. It infected. It stained. Even into the most sturdy and centred, it seeped osmotically and corrupted. That was an ever-present danger on the battlefield. But here... here on what was by any measure a Chaos world... how long would it take?
Later on it says that the imperial tactician Biota had estimated it'd take a month for Gaunt and company to become irreversibly corrupted. This obviously doesn't happen (although it does almost), so the above should probably be taken with a few grains of salt (a lot of it could simply be exaggerated due to Imperial paranoia), but the basic premise behind the corrupting effect seems fairly clear: like the incident with the soldier from First and Only that was already mentioned, Chaos seems to need some physical vector in order to infect those who don't willingly turn to it. Even in case of an entire planet it apparently takes a significant amount of time before it achieves any result at all, and even then it's not certain it'll work on everyone.

So yeah, the often-heard versus-argument "everyone gets eaten by Chaos" sounds like exaggeration, unless perhaps the invaders like to camp out on Chaos planets or keep Chaos idols close.
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Post by Maxentius » 2008-06-11 09:19am

weemadando wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Err... Ando... The Horus story has always included 'he got possessed after an initiation ritual into a warrior lodge.'
Really? Since when? All the early fluff that I can recall from the days of Rogue Trader, 1st and 2nd ed 40k related to Horus being ALREADY corrupted before willingly turning himself into a daemon host.

Horus turned bad. Got Daemon. Got worse.
I can't find any of my old second edition books (namely the Codex Imperialis), but I am 99% certain that it's mentioned in there as happening in the way Weemadando described. To exposit a bit, the story goes something like this, from my memory:

Initiation into local warrior cults and the like was rather commonplace for Marines during the Great Crusade, both as a way to ingratiate themselves to locals, and to potentially establish new recruiting grounds. Horus just happened to pick the one that the Chaos Gods had subverted. The passage also implied that the Choas Gods had deliberately cult-ified that particular lodge with the specific aim of seducing Horus.
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Post by Vendetta » 2008-06-11 10:05am

Darth Hoth wrote: Warp infestation, on the other hand, appears to need a connection to the Warp. This could be either through a Psyker, a Chaos cult summoning daemons or somesuch, or merely the physical presence of humans inside the Warp in transit (the last may also require partial Geller field failure; I am not all that up to date on the fluff). Thus, an invading force would be more or less immune to it, unless they have supernatural talents themselves that might be taken to be linked to the Warp or used 40k-esque FTL (in most cases, there would be no reason why they should)..
In the case of 40k, pretty much everyone is linked to the warp. People who aren't are the exception. Chaos always has a way in to them, but it can only take hold if the individual willingly turns to it through fear, ambition, lust, or whatever.

Whether people from other universes would be susceptible would really depend on whether there's an equivalent force to the warp. The Force seems to form a similar connection, so people from Star Wars would be more likely to be susceptible, but that doesn't mean they would inevitably be corrupted except by proximate contact with the forces of Chaos itself (Which is mainly down to the horror of contact with daemons and other warp critters provoking the kind of temptation that Chaos can sieze on to corrupt someone).

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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-06-11 10:49am

Look. In Gaunt's Ghosts, a trooper got a papercut from a Chaos idol. Ten minutes later, he exploded into an obscene pus-spewing deformagrotesquetitude that wanted to eat his former comrade's souls.

True story.

On that note, it would be awesome to see the Rebellion succumb to Chaos. Slaaneshi Slave Princess Leia! :twisted:
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Post by Rye » 2008-06-11 10:51am

Related to this issue and SW/40k stuff, I was going to post this in a different thread, but here's decent enough:

Why wouldn't Palps voluntarily turn to Chaos? It represents teachings he'd like (from what I know of his personal philosophy, which I admit isn't enormous); do what you want, satisfy your desires, crush your enemies, get a shitload of power if you're ruthless enough. I don't see why he wouldn't embrace the warp and become some appropriately fiendish entity, at which point, things would become extremely unpleasant for all concerned.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-11 11:06am

Maxentius wrote:Initiation into local warrior cults and the like was rather commonplace for Marines during the Great Crusade, both as a way to ingratiate themselves to locals, and to potentially establish new recruiting grounds. Horus just happened to pick the one that the Chaos Gods had subverted. The passage also implied that the Choas Gods had deliberately cult-ified that particular lodge with the specific aim of seducing Horus.
Quite. Also has the hilarious bit of Horus threatening to report his aide to "the Inquisition" but yes. Horus went to Davin, got initiated, and as far as we know, came out a raving psychopath who was (certainly by the time of the big fight with the Emperor) possessed by the Dark Gods. In this respect, the new fluff is much more subtle, in that we are told Horus is only decieved...
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Post by Maxentius » 2008-06-11 11:09am

Zuul wrote:Related to this issue and SW/40k stuff, I was going to post this in a different thread, but here's decent enough:

Why wouldn't Palps voluntarily turn to Chaos? It represents teachings he'd like (from what I know of his personal philosophy, which I admit isn't enormous); do what you want, satisfy your desires, crush your enemies, get a shitload of power if you're ruthless enough. I don't see why he wouldn't embrace the warp and become some appropriately fiendish entity, at which point, things would become extremely unpleasant for all concerned.
Palpatine has always seemed to possess a drive to be the most powerful being in his universe, subservient to none. If he becomes a devotee of Chaos, he'll eventually end up as a thrall to whomever's path he follows (Tzeentch, I suspect), and I cannot see him stomaching such a situation. And Palpatine is not powerful enough to challenge Tzeentch himself. Perhaps he could be lured in ala Horus, but I highly doubt he would willingly embrace a power source if he's aware it will result in his subservience to a deity.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 12:48pm

Vendetta wrote:In the case of 40k, pretty much everyone is linked to the warp. People who aren't are the exception. Chaos always has a way in to them, but it can only take hold if the individual willingly turns to it through fear, ambition, lust, or whatever.

Whether people from other universes would be susceptible would really depend on whether there's an equivalent force to the warp. The Force seems to form a similar connection, so people from Star Wars would be more likely to be susceptible, but that doesn't mean they would inevitably be corrupted except by proximate contact with the forces of Chaos itself (Which is mainly down to the horror of contact with daemons and other warp critters provoking the kind of temptation that Chaos can sieze on to corrupt someone).
Surely it cannot simply be a question of "thinking evil thoughts", so to speak. Is it enough to summon Chaos to merely utter a blasphemy, or feel rage or desire? If so, then the Imperium would be dead long ago. I know from previous examples that apparently one would not be required to knowingly submit to the Ruinous Powers, but could be corrupted without realising it, but it cannot be a no-limits game. Chaos and possession does not appear to spring up spontaneously or all over the place; in most cases of infestation not directly physically contracted that I am aware of, it would need a conduit of greater Warp affinity than an ordinary human soul (e.g., a Psyker). Warp travel would be a special case where this is somewhat different, but then there is actual physical proximity to the Powers.

My understanding of it was that an ordinary human is in no danger (great, at least) unless directly exposed to the forces of Chaos in some way, either by physical infection or the temptation of actual daemonic entities or their proxies.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 12:59pm

Zuul wrote:Related to this issue and SW/40k stuff, I was going to post this in a different thread, but here's decent enough:

Why wouldn't Palps voluntarily turn to Chaos? It represents teachings he'd like (from what I know of his personal philosophy, which I admit isn't enormous); do what you want, satisfy your desires, crush your enemies, get a shitload of power if you're ruthless enough. I don't see why he wouldn't embrace the warp and become some appropriately fiendish entity, at which point, things would become extremely unpleasant for all concerned.
Palpatine's philosophy appears to have centered on the concept of Order and conformity; Publius performs a thorough examination of it on his page, but summarised, his dream and eventual goal was an orderly galaxy where everyone would conform to his will, from which he would extend his "benevolent" influence across the Universe. Ambition and anger were to him tools to be tempered and controlled, not given free reign over the intellect; that was merely a stage in an individual's corruption, or means to an end. He considered his ultimative achievement to be that he had mastered his own emotions, and the Dark Side. As such, the essentially disruptive and destructive forces of Chaos would be anathema to his vision; its fundamentally irrational and emotional workings runs directly contrary to his ideas of reasoning and self-control, and it would certainly destroy the divine order that he wished to build.

There is also the matter of his own very immodest ambitions. In the end, at least according to in-universe writer Arhul Hextrophon, he envisioned a future where all life would be part of a single, hive-like organism with him as its ruler and the ultimate master of all creation. This would obviously conflict with the idea of becoming a minor, subservient power to the Chaos Gods or other Warp-entities.
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Post by Vendetta » 2008-06-11 01:16pm

Darth Hoth wrote:Surely it cannot simply be a question of "thinking evil thoughts", so to speak. Is it enough to summon Chaos to merely utter a blasphemy, or feel rage or desire?
The Imperia priesthood would have you believe so, but I think it would require strong or excessive emotions to actually invite corruption. You have to make enough of an impression on the immaterium to be noticed against the background noise, as it were, and it would probably have to be sustained over some time.

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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 01:38pm

Vendetta wrote:The Imperia priesthood would have you believe so, but I think it would require strong or excessive emotions to actually invite corruption. You have to make enough of an impression on the immaterium to be noticed against the background noise, as it were, and it would probably have to be sustained over some time.
So it works somewhat akin to the Dark Side of Star Wars, then? One serious act of aggression, passion et cetera would not be instantaneous and permanent corruption, but rather lower your resistance to future subversion?

In addition, I recall something about faith protecting from corruption in itself. Is this unique to the Imperial Cult, or would any religious belief do?
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-11 01:40pm

Darth Hoth wrote:
Peptuck wrote:Tactica Imperialis indicates that any military force that operates in or near areas heavily affected by Chaos runs a risk of contamination. I'm not sure precisely under what conditions it might happen, but there is an Imperial Guard regiment in that book that steadily falls deeper and deeper into heresy as they fight; after only a few engagements they reach a point where they have to be sterilized from orbit by the Ordo Malleus.
That still appears explainable as a physical phenomenon. They may be breathing in Chaos-tainted particles or gases, or a few soldiers contracted the disease and then spread it to the rest. What were the more exact circumstances? Did the planet have an atmosphere? Did the soldiers have NBC protection? Were they fighting Chaos foes who might infect them?
The book is annoyingly ambigious on this, actually. The planet in question does have an atmosphere apparently and been suffering from warp-based heresy for some time; the mutant population was rising up under the command of a Chaos warlord who was preparing to invade.

The Guard unit (whose name I cannot for the life of me remember, but came from a low-light world where everyone fought in tunnels) starts showing signs of Chaos infection almost the minute they move into areas affected by Chaos itself. On the other hand, there's a unit of Guardsmen from a different, feral world who are employed as trackers and scouts for the main force, but appear to remain uninfected by the Warp.

The Guardsmen in question though definitely were not shown wearing NBC gear. The exact nature of the enemy they fought is not specified, though they apparently included the standard range of Chaos mooks, including mutants, cultists, and Chaos Marines.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-11 01:44pm

Darth Hoth wrote: In addition, I recall something about faith protecting from corruption in itself. Is this unique to the Imperial Cult, or would any religious belief do?
Not entirely certain on this, but we know that the Tau (at least in Dawn of War) are unusually resistant to coruption. Whether this is because of their belief in the greater Good or simply their inability to be affected by psychic intrustions is up in the air.

Kroot that eat people who've fallen to Chaos, though, need to be purged, which lines up with the idea that making contact with Chaos is bad mojo.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 02:02pm

Peptuck wrote:The book is annoyingly ambigious on this, actually. The planet in question does have an atmosphere apparently and been suffering from warp-based heresy for some time; the mutant population was rising up under the command of a Chaos warlord who was preparing to invade.

The Guard unit (whose name I cannot for the life of me remember, but came from a low-light world where everyone fought in tunnels) starts showing signs of Chaos infection almost the minute they move into areas affected by Chaos itself. On the other hand, there's a unit of Guardsmen from a different, feral world who are employed as trackers and scouts for the main force, but appear to remain uninfected by the Warp.

The Guardsmen in question though definitely were not shown wearing NBC gear. The exact nature of the enemy they fought is not specified, though they apparently included the standard range of Chaos mooks, including mutants, cultists, and Chaos Marines.
I see. So there is nothing obvious to rule out a physical mechanism of corruption, then.

The difference between the two units is interesting. Was one of them relatively closer to some "focus" of Chaos energy, such as an idol or temple? Did one have more contact with the enemy than the other? Were there significant differences in training or genetics? Any information can help us narrow down the range of factors that might affect Chaos corruption.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

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