WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

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WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Lonestar » 2008-06-05 06:51am

Anyone look at some of the previews yet? 5th Edition Preview

Besides the "Age of Mankind coming to an end"(apperently to make way for the damn tau), the woo-woos over on the Relic messageboard say that there is a timeline that states that the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus" and that the Astronomicon is "faltering...unable to reach Ultramar".

Is GW advancing the plot? Hope so!
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-06-05 06:58am

Fuck the Tau. Goddamn it, I loathe them. I mean, screw their techno-wanking.

Hopefully, we'll see the IoM go out with a galaxy-shattering bang!
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Post by Lazarus » 2008-06-05 08:02am

Wow, I honestly didn't expect any real progress in the timeline, I figured major changes would result in GW writing themselves into a corner. I guess it's time to roll out all the conspiracy theories again, if the Golden Throne fails the Emperor dies and... kicks the shit out of Chaos? Reincarnates? Eats ice cream? So many possibilities...
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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Teleros » 2008-06-05 09:22am

Lonestar wrote:Is GW advancing the plot? Hope so!
Only two possibilities I can realistically see them adopting:

1) Part of a long-term plan to reset the 40k universe. Which will of course still leave everyone at each other's throats, just with new models, races and whatnot.
2) New flavour text on how the whole universe it teetering on the brink of utter destruction. Carry on as usual.

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Post by The Grim Squeaker » 2008-06-05 09:49am

the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus"
:WTF:. Wow, they're really going balls to the walls with the whole "hereditary technologists caste that don't learn or advance anything".
Unless they mean can't be maintained, as opposed to people getting worse at maintaining the 1/2d most important piece of technology/infrastructure in the Imperium. (The other being the Astronomicon. Which is deteriorating even worse. Isn't Ultramar relatively very close to Terra?)
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-05 10:03am

DEATH wrote:[ (The other being the Astronomicon. Which is deteriorating even worse. Isn't Ultramar relatively very close to Terra?)
No, its at the edge of the Ultima Segmentum. The Eastern fringe of the Galaxy was already out of range and Ultramar is near the Eastern fringe. It is, however, an important part of the Imperium and a clear mark of the Astronomicon's declining strength.
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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 10:55am

Lonestar wrote:Anyone look at some of the previews yet? 5th Edition Preview

Besides the "Age of Mankind coming to an end"(apperently to make way for the damn tau), the woo-woos over on the Relic messageboard say that there is a timeline that states that the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus" and that the Astronomicon is "faltering...unable to reach Ultramar".

Is GW advancing the plot? Hope so!
No. It's still 999.M41. Abaddon's Black Crusade, Ghazkull's Waagh, etc, are still front page headlines.

They're just reconning more GRIMDARK in.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 10:59am

DEATH wrote: :WTF:. Wow, they're really going balls to the walls with the whole "hereditary technologists caste that don't learn or advance anything".
Not really. It's worth noting that it was never understood. The only guys who knew what it did were the Emperor's technologists. It was always superduper artifact tech.

Also, they're not hereditary. The mechanicus will initiate anyone with chutzpah to seek them out and intelligence to pass their tests.
Unless they mean can't be maintained, as opposed to people getting worse at maintaining the 1/2d most important piece of technology/infrastructure in the Imperium. (The other being the Astronomicon. Which is deteriorating even worse.
Which is probably meant to be from the strength of the Emperor finally waning.
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Post by PainRack » 2008-06-05 11:05am

DEATH wrote:
the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus"
:WTF:. Wow, they're really going balls to the walls with the whole "hereditary technologists caste that don't learn or advance anything".
Unless they mean can't be maintained, as opposed to people getting worse at maintaining the 1/2d most important piece of technology/infrastructure in the Imperium. (The other being the Astronomicon. Which is deteriorating even worse. Isn't Ultramar relatively very close to Terra?)
Why not? The Golden Throne has been in existence for a millenia. Any machine kept running that long would face more and more problems in maintenance. Its not as if they could shut down the throne and run preventive maintenance.

And any weakening of the Emperor powers would also thus affect the Astronomicon powers.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 11:21am

It's worth noting that we do have a glimpse of the early 42nd millennium, in the form of the framing story and notes from the Caiphas Cain books, composed some years after 005.M42, possibly several decades. From this we know a few things.

The Imperium is still going.
The Emperor hasn't risen yet.
The Inquisition is still going, the Ordo-Xenos at least.
The necrons are a much bigger threat in the 42nd millennium than in the 41st.

If anything, the fact that she's got leisure time to edit and publish memoirs indicates there might be major Imperial victories in the early 42nd millennium.
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Post by Teleros » 2008-06-05 11:51am

More than likely. One of the conclusions of the 13th Black Crusade was that the Imperial Navy had almost total space supremacy, which makes it much easier to mop up what's left of Abbadon's forces on Cadia etc, which in turn means it's easier to focus on (say) Hive Fleet Leviathan.

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 12:00pm

Indeed. They're not explicitly stating that, alas. Because they can't have the good guys win, at least, not in those world campaigns. Honestly, given the EoT was an eldar stomping, I would have had Eldrad bloody well succeed and capture a blackstone (BFG eldar players... enjoy.) or even both of them. And Medusa IV. When you consider the IoM's total shipping tonnage, and the smallish scale of that hive world, I'd say it'd have not been unreasonable, given how successful the IoM players were, to say 'every single loyal imperial citizen was evacuated. Then the planet was virus bombed' and have the writeup be all about the giant Eisenhorn-equse triumph with billions of new immigrants held a few systems away (oh, and make a model of that lady Inquisitor). Instead... nope. just a generic cluster-fuck.
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Post by Guardsman Bass » 2008-06-05 12:18pm

Shouldn't the Tau be hitting size issues with their empire pretty soon? They still only have slow FTL, since they can't use the Warp for travel.
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Post by Slacker » 2008-06-05 12:29pm

Not neccesarily-the way it seems they're laid out, it's like a nodal system with a major sept world in the middle and then little outlying colonies supporting that world. So travel time from, say, T'au itself might get longer, but those colonies are still supported by the nearby Sept worlds.

If it wasn't for the Etheral caste, they'd have major decentralization issues popping up, but I suppose mind control makes communism work.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-05 01:33pm

Instead... nope. just a generic cluster-fuck.
Well, to be fair, Medusa V had everyone and their mother showing up to wreck shit. I got the impression from the despatches that between Chaos, the Orks, the Tyranids, and the Necrons, (let alone the constant Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau raiding) the Imperium had their hands full just trying to hold onto their territory, and maintain materials production and ore output.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 01:34pm

Their drives are something like 1/5 the 'average' speed of IoM ones. Their current empire would mean that they're maybe a few weeks from T'au to the Third Sphere.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-06-05 01:38pm

Peptuck wrote:just trying to hold onto their territory, and maintain materials production and ore output.
Yeah. The Imperial players stomped all opposition (barring the Eldar) I'd have rewarded them with the writeup assuming actually intelligent and moral strategies. Mind you, supposedly they did evacuate as many people as possible (which, as I said, should really be all of them, it's not Necromunda), but the followup really didn't make a big enough deal of it.
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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-06-05 03:26pm

Lonestar wrote:Besides the "Age of Mankind coming to an end"(apperently to make way for the damn tau), the woo-woos over on the Relic messageboard say that there is a timeline that states that the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus" and that the Astronomicon is "faltering...unable to reach Ultramar".

Is GW advancing the plot? Hope so!
Even assuming (rather genrously in my mind) that the Astronomican suffered a massive 10,000 light year radius drop in rnage.. (around 35-40,000 LY radius usually) - you're only looking at a 1.5-2% drop in actual territory "lost", and that doesn't factor in astrtopathic or "computer contrrolled" FTL or warp gates.. (slower, ,yes, but still practiacble for some degree.) And all those worlds lost are basically going to be lower value, less developed worlds (its basically the Imperium's fricking frontier, after all.)

Current estimates set the Imperium's size in the tens if not hundreds of millions, even billions, of habitable (After some fashion) planets. In numerical terms its a huge loss, but relative to their overall size its STILL a minor blow, especially since alot of their most powerful/advanced/sophsticated/developed systems are still centered towards the center of the Imperium. The edges may be fraying, but the core is still bloody strong.

And I doubt this "makes way for the tau". The Tau are so still bloody tiny that they're millenia away from even being close to threatening the Imperium, and that assumes that they get deus-ex-machinad some way around their FTL speed limits and FTL communications issues. (whcih they might.)

All this really means (for the tau) is that its going to be a hell of alot harder for the Imperium to effectively concentrate and attack the Tau. Which basically means the Tau have been saved (yet again) from any potential devastation at the hands of humanity (I'd guess someone at GW just realized how likely it is the Imperium would crush the Tau and they had to scramble a way to Deus Ex machina their asses.) The whole "Tau expanding while facing the dregs of resistance the Imperium has to offer" scthick will continue onwards. And, even when they do fight, it also negates one of the Imperium's key advantages (FTL speeds and quite possibly fucks up their ability to communicate even more.)

Also, like NecronLord said, its just more stupidly pointless GRIMDARK crap. Apparently someone at GW got tired of the "positive" image of Ultramar and decided it needed to be fucked up some (would be my guess) and the best way to do that is cut it off from the Imperium.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-06-05 03:31pm

Slacker wrote:Not neccesarily-the way it seems they're laid out, it's like a nodal system with a major sept world in the middle and then little outlying colonies supporting that world. So travel time from, say, T'au itself might get longer, but those colonies are still supported by the nearby Sept worlds.

If it wasn't for the Etheral caste, they'd have major decentralization issues popping up, but I suppose mind control makes communism work.
That only works because the Tau occupy a region of space that has a higher density of haibtal planets for its volume. Those worlds are all tighly clustered together in an area not much larger (possibly even smaller) than your average Imperial Sector. That has a HUGE benefit to them in communications (lacking any astropath equivalent) and FTL travel. Add to that (going by the Rogue Trader novels by Andy Hoare) there's some really funky warp shit going on in the Damocles Gulf region (possibly in the entire Tau-occupied area.) which further "protects" them.

They can only exapand so far, however, ,before their size actually starts causing problems for cohesion. Historically, most non Imperial Powers (the ORks, Squats, etc.) could manage no more than "thousands" of worlds - those are the largest I Can think of too. The Tau probably wouldn't do too much better (possibly less, unless they match the Imperium for FTL speed.)

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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-06-05 03:36pm

What if the astronomicon is fading because the Emperor is withdrawing his influence and gathering it to try and wake himself the fuck up.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-06-05 03:40pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:What if the astronomicon is fading because the Emperor is withdrawing his influence and gathering it to try and wake himself the fuck up.
I doubt it. since (last I recall at least) the Emperor is only directing the Astornomicon and not powering it himself directly (thats what thouse thousands of psyker sacrifices are doing), him withdrawing his influence would probably mean that at least some of those psykers would be.. unguided. I can't imagine that having good consequencecs without GEoM's influence.

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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-05 04:27pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Even assuming (rather genrously in my mind) that the Astronomican suffered a massive 10,000 light year radius drop in rnage.. (around 35-40,000 LY radius usually) - you're only looking at a 1.5-2% drop in actual territory "lost", and that doesn't factor in astrtopathic or "computer contrrolled" FTL or warp gates.. (slower, ,yes, but still practiacble for some degree.) And all those worlds lost are basically going to be lower value, less developed worlds (its basically the Imperium's fricking frontier, after all.)
You don't need the Astronomican or astropaths or Navigators to travel the warp. Most Chartist vessels carry neither. It just means travel outside the range of the Astronomican is going to be a lot slower. This is going to suck if you need a quick response force of Astartes to save your ass and it will make seceding from the Imperium easier.
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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-06-05 05:05pm

Imperial Overlord wrote: You don't need the Astronomican or astropaths or Navigators to travel the warp. Most Chartist vessels carry neither. It just means travel outside the range of the Astronomican is going to be a lot slower. This is going to suck if you need a quick response force of Astartes to save your ass and it will make seceding from the Imperium easier.
Yeah, I know that. The problem is, its not only slow as fuck but also predictable as fuck. You lose alot of the ability to range about freely doing it that way. (which is going to be a huge disadvantage/danger if the enemy decides to ambush along those routes, as I imagine does happen during wartime.)

That's quite probably why its said that without the AStronomican the Imperium would fragment.

They might be able to get by on the edges of the astronomicaon with preplanned routes and the astropath network, but I still expect most of those planets to be lost, or rebel, or whatever. Even if they still can reach them, its going to fuck commerce and transport all to hell, which can be disaster for forge and hive worlds.

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Post by Maxentius » 2008-06-05 05:12pm

NecronLord wrote: Honestly, given the EoT was an eldar stomping, I would have had Eldrad bloody well succeed and capture a blackstone (BFG eldar players... enjoy.)
Yeah, that was some lovely shit. We tore off the face of every motherfucker that came against us, supposedly raided Commoragh while we were at it, and end up with nothing more than a dead Farseer/Hero character. Whoop de do!

Anyway, my bet is that this 'advancement' of the plot goes nowhere. It is, as most people have said, more useless GRIMDARK shit. I remember back in like '00 or '99 or somewhere around there, there was a massive summer campaign called Hunt For The Fallen, and everyone was waiting and ready for GW to finally start revealing actual information about Cypher and what the Fallen Angels are up to and all the stuff that would actually change the setting in an interesting way.

What happened?

Not a fucking thing.
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Re: WH40K 5th Edition fluff(spoilers)

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-05 06:57pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: Even if they still can reach them, its going to fuck commerce and transport all to hell, which can be disaster for forge and hive worlds.
Most commerce doesn't use the Astronomican so it won't be directly negatively impacted. The damage to the Imperium's ability to respond quickly to attacks and political instability in the fringe could fuck it, but I think that's generally survivable. The Eastern Fringe has always been outside the range of the Astronomican and the Imperium has still maintained a presence there. It will, however, definitely make things harder in the those regions.
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