Are martial arts effective self-defence for women?

[Lagmonster]

One of my peers is a woman who takes karate. She was recently talking about a big martial arts event aimed towards women, wherein they teach the idea that karate or whatever is a sure-fire tool to ward off muggers, home invaders and rapists.

Now, I'm not going to stand up like an idiot and say that martial arts are utterly useless against a determined male attacker, but I DO question the judgment of telling women that if they learn karate that they need worry less about the risks they take.

You see, this one woman I know proudly said she no longer fears jogging alone at night on the paths through the woods near her house. I immediately declared this to be asinine, but she was adamant that she was perfectly protected, and started going on about the responsibility of controlling the phenomenal power supposedly inherent in karate, lest she kill random rapists by accident, I suppose.

So considering that I don't know anything about the actual effectiveness of martial arts in the real world, what would someone who knows what they're talking about say to a young woman who said something similar about her ability to fight off surprise male attackers? Is the difference between men and women simply not equalized by martial arts, or is a trained female martial artist really more than a match for muggers and rapists?

[Darth Wong]

I hope she's also learning a grappling-based martial art, such as jiu-jitsu, wrestling, or judo. Any martial art which doesn't teach you how to get out of a hold or fight on the ground is only teaching you half of what you need to know, and karate is striking martial art, not a grappling one.

Besides, what if the guy has a knife or a gun? What if there are more than one guy? Self-defense tools are great, but she seems to be forgetting the first rule of self-defense, which any responsible sensei would teach her: if at all possible, avoid the fight.

[General Zod]

There's also the skill and weight of the attacker to consider. If they're up against someone who gets into fights all the time and outweighs them by 100lbs, well, they're pretty much fucked. Martial arts are handy when you're up against someone who's roughly the same build and ability as you are, but against someone a lot bigger or more experienced, not so much.

She'd honestly be best off carrying a taser or mace in addition to the martial arts. Cthulhu forbid she wind up going up against multiple attackers. I don't care how much karate she knows, 5 against one is not good odds when they're out to cause serious harm.

[Mr Bean]

Jiu-jitsu is almost the only martial art where I've seen dedicated courses being taught on how to deal with an attacker armed with a knife or gun.

However there are limits, if someone does have a 120+ pounds of muscle, even a jiu-jitsu master is going to have a impossiblely hard time of it. A 120 pound woman VS a 320 pound line-backer is going to result in bad things if she fucks up even ONCE.

Karate for self defense? Please, like tai kwon do, Karate has the same issue where a brawler can accept a hit or two, close, knock you down then use that famous bar-room move called "Sit on your chest and punch you in the face until you stop trying"

[Edi]

Anyone who claims karate is sufficient for self-defense is a moron and fuckwit of the first order precisely for the reasons Mike said. Often when a woman needs the kind of self-defense martial arts can provide, it's a grappling situation involving a rapist or possibly more than one.

If you had to pick something, I'd recommend ju-jutsu. The reason is that it combines the grappling moves of judo with blows, kicks, joint locks and crippling maneuvers and doesn't particularly pull things short in what it teaches like in judo. I've practiced both judo and jujutsu myself way back when and of the two, jujutsu is vastly superior as a practical self defense method. Judo is jujutsu with the kicks, punches and a lot of other nasty stuff removed. I've still got the basic stuff in muscle memory. Things like how to get out of various holds or chokeholds. They also teach you how to deal with an assailant armed with a knife if you can't run away. One of the black belt instructors the club had was this goddamn hot woman who was maybe five feet tall and weighed around 90 to 100 pounds soaking wet, but she was a specialist on breaking holds and stuff like that and she would wipe the floor with most guys. But even so, she said that it doesn't do any good if you get pinned with that kind of mass disparity, because you can't actually use any stuff then. As long as she could avoid getting pinned down, I wouldn't lay any odds an assailant getting out of it alive, but if not, then it would be a different situation.

Then there's the other self-defense stuff that can be used even without training to get a momentary advantage so you can get away, but you have to be ruthless enough to do it without hesitation and take it to the end or you're better off not even trying it. I mean literally gouging out eyes, hitting on the throat to crush the larynx and possibly damage other things, biting pieces off people and other similarly unpleasant stuff.

[Mr Bean]

To elaborate on a point
My cousin(female) told me the following when she was 15 and started learning ju-jutsu. "Remember, kneecaps are your friend, even large men will not fight when you crack his knee like a chicken bone"

[Singular Intellect]

Furthermore the size and strength difference between human males and females is not something to be taken lightly.

There's only so much effectiveness that training and discipline can overcome before the size and strength disparity takes over.

[Edi]

To elaborate on a point
My cousin(female) told me the following when she was 15 and started learning ju-jutsu. "Remember, kneecaps are your friend, even large men will not fight when you crack his knee like a chicken bone"

As I said, other nasty stuff. Forgot that one from the list...

[Mr Bean]

To elaborate on a point
My cousin(female) told me the following when she was 15 and started learning ju-jutsu. "Remember, kneecaps are your friend, even large men will not fight when you crack his knee like a chicken bone"

As I said, other nasty stuff. Forgot that one from the list...

Throat, eye Kneecap, shoulder Socket, fingers, instep, man-bits, it's a short list but any one of them stops an attacker cold, with throat being a kill move.

[Spin Echo]

Your coworker reminds me a bit of Dr Laura, who talks about how empowered she feels beause of her black-belt. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard the most difficult opponents for martial arts trained people are often people without martial arts training, because they are unpredictable.

Some friends of mine that did ju-jutsu in college made the same point about it being really the only martial art useful against attackers. And a lot of what they taught was how to avoid the fights in the first place. I think jogging alone at night in a dodgy area goes against that advice.

And frankly, martial arts won't do you any good if you're getting a surprise blow to the back of the head. My last year in Boston there was a spate of women getting knocked unconscious and raped. They never knew what hit them.

[Kanastrous]

Anyone serious about self defense - especially women serious about self defense - should master the use of a handgun (including weapon-retention and proper discretion regarding when to use it), and carry routinely.

Martial arts, electronic devices and irritant agents can all be very effective under the right circumstances, but there's no substitute for a couple of slugs in the chest.

And - I'll admit it - I actually much prefer that lethal force be used against would-be rapists or robbers. One less asshole for the justice system to deal with, is one less asshole for the justice system to deal with.

[General Zod]

Anyone serious about self defense - especially women serious about self defense - should master the use of a handgun (including weapon-retention and proper discretion regarding when to use it), and carry routinely.

Out of the question for a lot of people due to several reasons. Guns can be expensive, and not everyone will be living in a city (or country, for that matter) that legally allows civilians to carry them. For that matter, how would you go about carrying a gun in a jogging suit? Also, unless they're prepared and consistently willing to use lethal force having a gun can be worse than having non-lethal deterrents.

[Feil]

She's being an idiot.

1: The objective of self defense is to get home alive. Period. Winning a fight is what happens when you have failed miserably at every single step that you should have taken to avoid that fight. This includes staying the hell away from danger zones, or, if you /absolutely must/ go through a danger zone on a regular basis, arming yourself or traveling in a group or both.

2: An attacker has every advantage. He chooses the terrain; he has time to prepare, psychologically and physically for the fight. He has the element of surprise. He may have numbers. He may have a weapon. He almost certainly weighs 50 to 100 pounds more than you, and is 6 to 12 inches taller than you.

3: He who weighs more wins. A firearm is a force equalizer; unarmed combat skills are desperation skills for when an environment that should have been safe turned out not to be, or when you just plain fucked up - and even then, when the weight difference is high enough, one hit can be enough to end the fight.

4: Every fight that does not end in the knockout of the attacker or the physical incapacitation of the defender in the first fifteen seconds ends on the ground. On the ground, he who weighs more and has longer reach is at even more of an advantage than he is on his feet. Furthermore, all the striking skills in the world mean nothing when you're rolling.

Talk to her, and if that doesn't work, talk to her sensei. She needs to stop taking stupid risks.

[Singular Intellect]

For that matter, how would you go about carrying a gun in a jogging suit?

*coughs*

[Admiral Valdemar]

Learn Krav Maga. It was made for such things in the first place. No fancy moves for looking cool, just practical, efficient ways of defeating armed or un-armed opponents who may be far stronger than you.

Though any self-defence instructor will tell you to run if you can.

[Zixinus]

So considering that I don't know anything about the actual effectiveness of martial arts in the real world, what would someone who knows what they're talking about say to a young woman who said something similar about her ability to fight off surprise male attackers? Is the difference between men and women simply not equalized by martial arts, or is a trained female martial artist really more than a match for muggers and rapists?

I've practised martinal arts a bit and here is a little secret: once you get around all the tradition infused to it, you realise its a fighting STYLE not some magical power you can gain just by learning. Learning how to throw a punch or how to block an attack or two won't make you that more better fighter then before.

What martial arts do is to give knowledge how to fight and perhaps give some conditioning and confidence. Nothing more by itself, although some may find more to it then others.

It won't be effective againts a surprise attack. If the rapists gets hold of his victim by surprise or by another advantage that she can't get out of, she is fucked. For example, if she is gripped from behind, martinal arts won't help.

Combat is many things: balance, technique, strength, position, advantages and disadvantages, tricks but most importantly its awareness and moral. Having a good eye and reading your opponent is much more valuable skill then being able to strike bricks in half. And an opportunist can be recoiled if he sees that his target will not be as easy as he thought and may even retreat.

But if we are talking about self-defence, above all, the key is to teach common sense and not just combat. In fact, self-defence should be more about not getting into trouble the first place.

You see, this one woman I know proudly said she no longer fears jogging alone at night on the paths through the woods near her house. I immediately declared this to be asinine, but she was adamant that she was perfectly protected, and started going on about the responsibility of controlling the phenomenal power supposedly inherent in karate, lest she kill random rapists by accident, I suppose.

Then this woman is stupid, plain and simple. Read above why. Knowing karate does not equal invulnerability. Going jogging late at night by some remote woods will be just as dangerous as before.

EDIT: If I were her, I'd do the two of these things or both (aside not making regular jogs in a remote area at late night):
1. Carry a loud dog-alarm around your neck that you can pull the cord if attacked. It is one move and it can recoil the attacker, not to mention alert everyone in earshot.
2. Get someone else to be with her. It doesn't have to be a friend, it is enough it he or she also jogs. Jogging together is obviously safer then jogging alone. Plus, you'll get competition.

And - I'll admit it - I actually much prefer that lethal force be used against would-be rapists or robbers. One less asshole for the justice system to deal with, is one less asshole for the justice system to deal with.

Let me quote a local saying: "You'll get as much for him/her as you would get for a proper person."

[Darth Wong]

Another problem with martial arts is that a lot of people think the technique is all that matters, as if physical attributes have nothing to do with it.

Imagine a heavyweight boxer who learned all of the techniques, but decided not to spend time doing all of the grueling exercises: no rope jumping, punching bag, speed bag work, pushups, weights, running, medicine ball, etc. How do you think he would do in a boxing match? Answer: he would get his face smashed in so badly that his mother would have trouble recognizing him.

So why do martial artists think it's any different with them?

[Kanastrous]

Let me quote a local saying: "You'll get as much for him/her as you would get for a proper person."

Not if it's justifiable homicide, which is to say, self-defense, which is after all what we're talking about.

[Zixinus]

Not if it's justifiable homicide, which is to say, self-defense, which is after all what we're talking about.

While I agree that a gun's utility value as a self-defence weapon, it should be used as a deterrent rather then killing with it outright. Otherwise, the case won't be as clear.

Another problem with martial arts is that a lot of people think the technique is all that matters, as if physical attributes have nothing to do with it.

Imagine a heavyweight boxer who learned all of the techniques, but decided not to spend time doing all of the grueling exercises: no rope jumping, punching bag, speed bag work, pushups, weights, running, medicine ball, etc. How do you think he would do in a boxing match? Answer: he would get his face smashed in so badly that his mother would have trouble recognizing him.

So why do martial artists think it's any different with them?

They don't actually: all martinal arts classes I was in always had physical conditioning in one way or another.

That said, a good technique can make allot of difference if utilised corectly.

I am also reminded of a story: a famous boxer and martial artists begin a full-contact match, for a bet. This is there to decide whether western or eastern martinal arts are better. Both are in good shape and have experience.

The result? Neither were able to land a successful hit.

[Kanastrous]

Anyone serious about self defense - especially women serious about self defense - should master the use of a handgun (including weapon-retention and proper discretion regarding when to use it), and carry routinely.

Out of the question for a lot of people due to several reasons.

It's true that it's not for everyone.

Guns can be expensive,

You can legitimately acquire an effective handgun suitable for self-defense for under US$300. Considering the intended purpose, that impresses me as cheap, even if one might have to save up for it.

and not everyone will be living in a city (or country, for that matter) that legally allows civilians to carry them.

I will confess that I view self-defense, plus the most suitable tools you can obtain for the purpose, to be a basic right that comes with being alive. If legislators disagree with me, that's okay. They're easily ignored.

For that matter, how would you go about carrying a gun in a jogging suit?

I'd go with something like an American Arms Co. Black Widow, fitted with the .22 Hornet cylinder. At very close range, .22 Hornet is adequate for the purpose, with good shot placement.

A revolver so small can be tucked into a waistband, or even worn around the neck on a lanyard (more difficult to get to, though).

And yes, that's the voice of experience.

Also, unless they're prepared and consistently willing to use lethal force having a gun can be worse than having non-lethal deterrents.

Yes, sure, of course. Which is why I stipulated mastering the use of the weapon, plus how to retain it and properly carry.

Anyone who hasn't conditioned themselves to use their personal weapon accurately and reflexively, probably oughtn't be carrying - for reasons of public safety, as much or more than their own.

[Kanastrous]

Not if it's justifiable homicide, which is to say, self-defense, which is after all what we're talking about.

While I agree that a gun's utility value as a self-defence weapon, it should be used as a deterrent rather then killing with it outright. Otherwise, the case won't be as clear.

I'm less interested in the "case" afterwards, than the safety of the woman, during.

Under conditions where someone is suddenly and violently attacked, I'd hate to see them take the time to make a deterrence-vs-shooting decision, and wind up hurt or worse. Better to put down the assailant and be alive to defend the decision in court.

[General Zod]

You can legitimately acquire an effective handgun suitable for self-defense for under US$300. Considering the intended purpose, that impresses me as cheap, even if one might have to save up for it.

For people having to support families or living in expensive cities who are just barely making enough to be considered middle class, $300 is too expensive.

I will confess that I view self-defense, plus the most suitable tools you can obtain for the purpose, to be a basic right that comes with being alive. If legislators disagree with me, that's okay. They're easily ignored.

Good luck ignoring the cop who decides to arrest you for illegal carrying.

Yes, sure, of course. Which is why I stipulated mastering the use of the weapon, plus how to retain it and properly carry.

Anyone who hasn't conditioned themselves to use their personal weapon accurately and reflexively, probably oughtn't be carrying - for reasons of public safety, as much or more than their own.

Who the fuck has that sort of time if they have a full-time job and a family to worry about in addition to whatever other hobbies they enjoy? (ie - jogging). In other words, your suggestion is worthless for practical self-defense.

[aerius]

So considering that I don't know anything about the actual effectiveness of martial arts in the real world, what would someone who knows what they're talking about say to a young woman who said something similar about her ability to fight off surprise male attackers? Is the difference between men and women simply not equalized by martial arts, or is a trained female martial artist really more than a match for muggers and rapists?

I wouldn't bother talking to her, rather, I'd do what one of my instructors did and demonstrate it. He got fed up with some know it all toughguys and said "sometime within the next hour I'm going to attack you, be ready for it and defend yourselves". If it were for real, all 3 of those punks would've been dead by the time the hour was up. I used the same tactic to drive the point in on one of my co-workers. She got the point pretty fast.

In an ambush situation, Karate skills are next to useless, there is no time to setup a stance from which meaningful strikes can be thrown, and if you have time to set your stance for a kick or punch, you're better off running. You can't punch or kick when you're being wrapped up and tackled to the ground, which is what any mugger with half a brain will do.

The most important tool in self defence is situational awareness and avoiding bad situations, followed by Nike-fu and the gift of gab, in other words, running for it or talking and bullshitting your way out of it when things go wrong. If all that fails, and it's pretty rare that it does, then you're left with attacking with everything you've got until the perp(s) is down & out or you can run for it and get the hell out of there. And that, I can tell you, is very ugly, and not something you want to go through.

[Edi]

For example, if she is gripped from behind, martinal arts won't help.

What kind of martial arts have you practiced? Among the things they taught us in jujutsu was how to get out of various holds, whether the hold was from the front or behind and in various ways. Including chokeholds. Granted that it requires practice and also luck, but it can be done.

Doesn't change what was said that getting into a fight means you already managed to fuck up, possibly more than once.

[Kanastrous]

Good luck ignoring the cop who decides to arrest you for illegal carrying.

Around here, at any rate, you don't necessarily get arrested for unlawful carry. Your weapon *will* be confiscated, and you *will* have to appear before a judge, and you *can* actually get your weapon returned, if you can satisfy the judge that you had reason to carry, even if you lack the proper permit. I have seen it done, at first hand.

Anyway, if you come to be involved in a shooting - even a fully justified one - details regarding the legitimacy of your carry will be just about the very last of your worries.

At least, around here. I know that other places, and particularly other countries have really truly hysterical reactions to the mere presence of a firearm, regardless of the facts of any individual case.

Yes, sure, of course. Which is why I stipulated mastering the use of the weapon, plus how to retain it and properly carry.

Who the fuck has that sort of time if they have a full-time job and a family to worry about in addition to whatever other hobbies they enjoy? (ie - jogging).

*raises hand*

In other words, your suggestion is worthless for practical self-defense.

Your post suggests to me that you lack the first-hand experience and practice, to make that judgment.