Enforce gun bans by house to house searches?

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Glocksman
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Enforce gun bans by house to house searches?

Post by Glocksman »

Seriously
AST week's tragedy at Virginia Tech in which a mentally disturbed person gunned down 32 of America's finest - intelligent young people with futures ahead of them - once again puts the phenomenon of an armed society into focus for Americans.

The likely underestimate of how many guns are wandering around America runs at 240 million in a population of about 300 million. What was clear last week is that at least two of those guns were in the wrong hands.

When people talk about doing something about guns in America, it often comes down to this: "How could America disarm even if it wanted to? There are so many guns out there."

Because I have little or no power to influence the "if" part of the issue, I will stick with the "how." And before anyone starts to hyperventilate and think I'm a crazed liberal zealot wanting to take his gun from his cold, dead hands, let me share my experience of guns.

As a child I played cowboys and Indians with cap guns. I had a Daisy Red Ryder B-B gun. My father had in his bedside table drawer an old pistol which I examined surreptitiously from time to time. When assigned to the American embassy in Beirut during the war in Lebanon, I sometimes carried a .357 Magnum, which I could fire accurately. I also learned to handle and fire a variety of weapons while I was there, including Uzis and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

I don't have any problem with hunting, although blowing away animals with high-powered weapons seems a pointless, no-contest affair to me. I suppose I would enjoy the fellowship of the experience with other friends who are hunters.

Now, how would one disarm the American population? First of all, federal or state laws would need to make it a crime punishable by a $1,000 fine and one year in prison per weapon to possess a firearm. The population would then be given three months to turn in their guns, without penalty.

Hunters would be able to deposit their hunting weapons in a centrally located arsenal, heavily guarded, from which they would be able to withdraw them each hunting season upon presentation of a valid hunting license. The weapons would be required to be redeposited at the end of the season on pain of arrest. When hunters submit a request for their weapons, federal, state, and local checks would be made to establish that they had not been convicted of a violent crime since the last time they withdrew their weapons. In the process, arsenal staff would take at least a quick look at each hunter to try to affirm that he was not obviously unhinged.

It would have to be the case that the term "hunting weapon" did not include anti-tank ordnance, assault weapons, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, or other weapons of war.

All antique or interesting non-hunting weapons would be required to be delivered to a local or regional museum, also to be under strict 24-hour-a-day guard. There they would be on display, if the owner desired, as part of an interesting exhibit of antique American weapons, as family heirlooms from proud wars past or as part of collections.

Gun dealers could continue their work, selling hunting and antique firearms. They would be required to maintain very tight inventories. Any gun sold would be delivered immediately by the dealer to the nearest arsenal or the museum, not to the buyer.

The disarmament process would begin after the initial three-month amnesty. Special squads of police would be formed and trained to carry out the work. Then, on a random basis to permit no advance warning, city blocks and stretches of suburban and rural areas would be cordoned off and searches carried out in every business, dwelling, and empty building. All firearms would be seized. The owners of weapons found in the searches would be prosecuted: $1,000 and one year in prison for each firearm.

Clearly, since such sweeps could not take place all across the country at the same time. But fairly quickly there would begin to be gun-swept, gun-free areas where there should be no firearms. If there were, those carrying them would be subject to quick confiscation and prosecution. On the streets it would be a question of stop-and-search of anyone, even grandma with her walker, with the same penalties for "carrying."

The "gun lobby" would no doubt try to head off in the courts the new laws and the actions to implement them. They might succeed in doing so, although the new approach would undoubtedly prompt new, vigorous debate on the subject. In any case, some jurisdictions would undoubtedly take the opportunity of the chronic slowness of the courts to begin implementing the new approach.

America's long land and sea borders present another kind of problem. It is easy to imagine mega-gun dealerships installing themselves in Mexico, and perhaps in more remote parts of the Canadian border area, to funnel guns into the United States. That would constitute a problem for American immigration authorities and the U.S. Coast Guard, but not an insurmountable one over time.

There could conceivably also be a rash of score-settling during hunting season as people drew out their weapons, ostensibly to shoot squirrels and deer, and began eliminating various of their perceived two-footed enemies. Given the general nature of hunting weapons and the fact that such killings are frequently time-sensitive, that seems a lesser sort of issue.

That is my idea of how it could be done. The desire to do so on the part of the American people is another question altogether, but one clearly raised again by the Blacksburg tragedy.

Dan Simpson, a retired diplomat, is a member of the editorial boards of The Blade and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Never mind the fact that the bill of rights prohibits exactly those kinds of searches, eh?

Hopefully, he isn't serious about house to house searches and random searches in public, and just threw this out as food for thought to provoke debate.
If he really thinks we should trample over the constitution in ways that'd make Dick Cheney blush, he's both a few fries short of a happy meal and must have worked in Ribbentrop's Foreign Ministry instead of the US State Department during his diplomatic career.
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Post by Glocksman »

Just to make it clear, my outrage isn't about guns and gun bans, it's about wholesale violations of the search and seizure provisions in the bill of rights.
Substitute 'illegal drugs' for 'guns', and I'd feel the exact same way.
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Post by General Zod »

Fat chance of that ever happening. I'm not exactly pro-gun, but that type of plan is simply not practical to implement in the slightest.
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Post by Falkenhayn »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't the constitution state, specifically, that the public must be fairly compensated for property confiscated by the government. Does the ruling on Eminent Domain affect anything besides Real Estate?
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Post by General Zod »

Falkenhayn wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't the constitution state, specifically, that the public must be fairly compensated for property confiscated by the government. Does the ruling on Eminent Domain affect anything besides Real Estate?
I'm not sure if it would apply in this case, since it involves confiscating something that had been outlawed for destruction, as opposed to confiscating something that was being put towards state use.
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Post by Jadeite »

Thanks for posting this. It'll be great to use versus the anti-gun nuts over on SA. Sometimes a cause's worst enemy can be itself.
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Post by Glocksman »

General Zod wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't the constitution state, specifically, that the public must be fairly compensated for property confiscated by the government. Does the ruling on Eminent Domain affect anything besides Real Estate?
I'm not sure if it would apply in this case, since it involves confiscating something that had been outlawed for destruction, as opposed to confiscating something that was being put towards state use.
True, as the Fifth says that payment shall be made if the property was put to public use.

Second Amendment and the gun rights debate aside, the real violations would be of the 4th amedment:
Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution wrote: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Either this guy isn't serious about this and just wants to spark debate, or he's a complete around the bend nutjob.
I'm hoping that a former US diplomat and newspaper editorial board member doesn't seriously advocate such searches for anything.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Azazal »

Wow, just ahh, yeah. I agree with Glocksman assessment there, to make the world safe we need to throw out the basis of constitutional law and go ape shit crazy. All Simpson forgot was "think of the children"
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

I really love the US system...the idea of police having stop and search powers gets people screaming...nevermind the gun issue...
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Post by Glocksman »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I really love the US system...the idea of police having stop and search powers gets people screaming...nevermind the gun issue...
When the use of random searches violates over 200 years of US law and is specifically prohibited in our constitution, you're damn right it gets people screaming.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

I know, it makes me giggle how much people there screech about a 200 year old document with so much stupid shit in it. After all, it originally had black people worth 3/5ths of a white person IIRC, it's hardly infalliable and frankly from a practical point of view it's really stupid.
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Post by Glocksman »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I know, it makes me giggle how much people there screech about a 200 year old document with so much stupid shit in it. After all, it originally had black people worth 3/5ths of a white person IIRC, it's hardly infalliable and frankly from a practical point of view it's really stupid.
So you feel that the prohibition on warrantless searches is 'stupid shit', and that we shouldn't get upset if they do occur?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

In a word. Yes.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I know, it makes me giggle how much people there screech about a 200 year old document with so much stupid shit in it. After all, it originally had black people worth 3/5ths of a white person IIRC, it's hardly infalliable and frankly from a practical point of view it's really stupid.
When you have an administration as corrupt, incompetent, and vilolence prone as our current one, the idea of the police coming to search my home for no reason makes me shit my pants.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I know, it makes me giggle how much people there screech about a 200 year old document with so much stupid shit in it. After all, it originally had black people worth 3/5ths of a white person IIRC, it's hardly infalliable and frankly from a practical point of view it's really stupid.
Fixing the stupid shit to be more in line with the people's wishes is what amendments are for. Right now, I see no groundswell of anti-gun sentiment among the people.
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Post by Jadeite »

Keevan_Colton wrote:In a word. Yes.
How very authoritarian of you.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Frank Hipper wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:I know, it makes me giggle how much people there screech about a 200 year old document with so much stupid shit in it. After all, it originally had black people worth 3/5ths of a white person IIRC, it's hardly infalliable and frankly from a practical point of view it's really stupid.
When you have an administration as corrupt, incompetent, and vilolence prone as our current one, the idea of the police coming to search my home for no reason makes me shit my pants.
I'd put that down to having a corrupt bunch of nutters in charge. That's a whole other problem in america with the tendancy to elect people on the basis of beer drinking rather than some kind of sense to it...

Here I dont fear the police, but they dont have a history of blowing away 92 year old women and covering it up...maybe it's a cultural thing?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Jadeite wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:In a word. Yes.
How very authoritarian of you.
Perhaps I just harbour illusions of a competent aparatus of the state that you can have some measure of faith in...

If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

What, exactly, stops these cops from arbitrarily enforcing or not enforcing any number of laws selectively to cause an overall imbalance in distribution of arrests and prosecutions across society? Could be political ends, could be fulfillment of unofficial 'contracts' with the prison industry, could be Ye Olde Time Bigotry, could be all three, I think.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

As everyone has adressed the privacy issue;

Have these people ever tried to cordon off a block and search it? My battalion did it in Fallujah on a fairly regularly basis, and it was never worth the effort involved.
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Post by RedImperator »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:In a word. Yes.
How very authoritarian of you.
Perhaps I just harbour illusions of a competent aparatus of the state that you can have some measure of faith in...

If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
Why don't you name a government--any government, anywhere--where the citizens' rights need no legal protection because the government can be trusted to never abuse its powers. I'd love to hear about it, and the wonderful people who inhabit this land who apparently are immune from corruption, abusing their powers, or just plain fucking up.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:In a word. Yes.
How very authoritarian of you.
Perhaps I just harbour illusions of a competent aparatus of the state that you can have some measure of faith in...

If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

RedImperator wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Jadeite wrote: How very authoritarian of you.
Perhaps I just harbour illusions of a competent aparatus of the state that you can have some measure of faith in...

If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
Why don't you name a government--any government, anywhere--where the citizens' rights need no legal protection because the government can be trusted to never abuse its powers. I'd love to hear about it, and the wonderful people who inhabit this land who apparently are immune from corruption, abusing their powers, or just plain fucking up.
Did I say that there was such a thing?

No.

I pointed out how retarded the american reaction to the notion of stop and search powers are. Not to mention the nonsense about warrants in the US legal system, "fruits of a poisonous tree" and all that other bullshit that goes with it.

There is no perfect system, but as with so many things america seems determined to go with the most fucked up possible approach and damn the fucking consequences and damn anyone that disagrees.
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Post by Azazal »

Keevan_Colton wrote:If you cannot trust the government that you have elected then perhaps you should take a long hard look at the electorate that chose them?
Yeap, cause we get to choose the cops that enforce the law all the time, and corrupt or incompetent people never ever make it onto the police force. You never hear about police breaking in on a 92 year old women, shooting her, and planting false evidence. Or of a cop pulling people over and forcing them to perform sex acts for him to wack off to. Nope, never happens. An I'm sure the police in London have never decided some one was a threat and shot him on the platform of a tube station, even though all the person did was "look like a terrorist"
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I'd put that down to having a corrupt bunch of nutters in charge. That's a whole other problem in america with the tendancy to elect people on the basis of beer drinking rather than some kind of sense to it...
Okay, random searches of cars and pedestrians (who are on public property) are one thing, but you honestly don't have a problem with total strangers coming into your home without warning and rummaging through your stuff? Perhaps you also don't have a problem with wiretapping everyone's phones and internet connections either: after all, if you have nothing tho hide you have nothing to fear, right?
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