Saruman VS Bowser

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2007-02-07 12:47pm

I had dusted off my copy of Super Mario RPG the other day, and one of the most intriguing things I noticed while playing the game was the level of detail we were shown about certain political realities in Mario's world. The Mushroom Kingdom has a Chancellor, for one thing, and it's castle is guarded by unarmed "Guard" characters, despite whatever the ease with which the Koopa Troops could march into the Mushroom Kingdom would suggest. What I personally found more interesting that anything else, though, was Bowser organizing his Koopa Troops into ranks in an effort to retake his keep in the "north". This is the first, and to the best of my memory, only instance in which we see Bowser's army being treated like, well, an army.

However poorly Bowser distributes his soldiery when trying to hold a territory from the Mario Bros., he nonetheless does appear to hold to some semblance of military form when invading. Naturally, that got me thinking about quantifying the Koopa Troops as an army and how well they might perform against a middleweight like say, Saruman's Isengard.

Bear in mind the following:

Bowser's soldiers must operate along "commonsense" real-world lines, and must be slain by believable force like that seen in Super Mario RPG, instead of being "bopped" as with other Mario titles.
Goombas, Koopas and other soldiers in the KT cannot kill uruks by gliding into them and touching them. They too must overcome their opponents with adequate force. Goombas can presumably bite and gnaw, but will likely amount to little more than inept attack dogs slightly above literal meat shields.
The Koopa Troops can field cannons that fire both Bullet Bills and Bob-ombs. Bob-ombs can also run on foot.
Lakitus can hover over the field and drop red or green Spinys (forget how that works exactly) at the same rate as seen in the original Mario Bros. game. I assume that however they get the Spinys to throw is an extension of the pipe-based "warping" magic/tech that is ubiquitous througout the Mushroom Kingdom, and as such Lakitus are privvy to however many Spinys are on hand at the "senders" end.
The Koopa Troop has a modest brigade made of Bowser's undead minions, like Boos and Dry Bones, nowhere near as many as the ghost army that fought for Aragorn. They will have to be applied cunningly.
Bosses and minibosses from throughout the Mario canon are present. I can't think of any to name off the top of my head, though.
In place of archers, the Koopa Troop has Hammer Bros, Fire Bros, bullet-firing Snifits and Magikoops. If anyone can think of anything to add to this list, please do so.
Bowser himself is on hand, replete with his full inventory of sorcery. It should be noted that Bowser is referred to as a sorceror by profession in the manual for the original Super Mario Bros. game and that he has shown a variety of powers throughout the franchise's history, whereas Saruman's power is dwindling as he relies more on industry.
The battle takes place in an indiscriminate field with no clear geographic advantage for either side. Bowser, as stated before, is on hand to command the Koopa Troops, and Saruman is present as well to lead his Uruks.

I think that's everything.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-02-07 12:58pm

Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2007-02-07 12:59pm

Without any way to quanitfy the individual combat strength or numbers of Bowser's army, this is a hiding unto nothing.

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2007-02-07 01:00pm

Mario never faced Koopa's troops when they were arranged into a single massive armed force, and no uruk can jump or run with the kind of extreme athletic ability that Mario has.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2007-02-07 01:09pm

General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training.

And the Death star got blown up by a farm boy without any military training

.

and no uruk can jump or run with the kind of extreme athletic ability that Mario has.

Or Absorb magical power, squash beings into pulp with his sheer weight or jump through bricks the size of his body without a scratch (Or shoot fireballs).

V wrote:Without any way to quanitfy the individual combat strength or numbers of Bowser's army, this is a hiding unto nothing.

Pretty much, no numbers alone makes this all but pointless, never mind the lack of anything not based on game mechanics. (There is no Mario tv show. There was no movie or animated series. And I'm sticking to it

)

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2007-02-07 01:44pm

Hey!

The animated series' while goofy, weren't nearly as bad as that travesty of a movie.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2007-02-07 03:11pm

General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.

Mario is NOT just a "normal dude". For shame!

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2007-02-07 04:05pm

Does Bowser get those crazy, wooden tanks that were in Super Mario's Bros. 3? That, I think, would put him over the top.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2007-02-07 05:24pm

And the airships would make it just unfair. Paratroopers would also make it rather difficult. What else is there....Chomp Chomps? I'd imagine even the Urak's would have to think hard about attacking the giant ball and chain with gnashing teeth.

If we consider all the game mechanics of them walking into Mario as abstractions of a sort, then the Goomba's and Koopa's have demonstrated that they're able to take down a character with pretty much super-human durability and power in a straight up fight, though they tend to fall pretty quickly when he, forgive the pun, gets the jump on them.

While they obviously don't have superior training, nor would they be what I'd consider a disciplined force, they do have vastly superior technology, and dramatically more actual magic-users, though their power level relative to Saruman's is debatable.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-02-07 06:01pm

Trogdor wrote:Does Bowser get those crazy, wooden tanks that were in Super Mario's Bros. 3? That, I think, would put him over the top.

And the cannon-armed airships, don't forget.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2007-02-07 09:18pm

Bosses/minibosses:

Koopalings (Larry, Morton Jr, Wendy, Iggy, Ludwig, Lemmy and Roy)
Big Bertha and Boss Bass (aquatic only)
Boom Boom
Hookbill
Mecha Bowser
Mouser (he appears on the show with Bowser, despite only being in SMB2)
Fryguy (same as Mouser)
Tryclyde (same as Mouser)
Birdo and Robirdo
Angry Sun

Additional ranged troops include the Sledge Brothers, the Boomerang Brothers, and the Flying Hammer Brothers. There's also a Chomp Brother who uses a Chain Chomp as his weapon. There are the Boom Guys, Shy Guys with head-mounted cannon. Some Shy Guys also wield slingshots, which would be the least effective of the missile weapons, but still useful for additional skirmishing ability. Rocky Wrench defends the Doom Ships and tanks by throwing wrenches at enemies, although that might depend on if the vehicles are considered part of Bowser's army.

Paratroopas give an interesting quirk to the Koopas, since it provides aerial troops, although their slow flight speed could leave them vulnerable to crossbows.

The magic of Magikoopas would be largely an unknown - we know they can cast fire from their wands and teleport, as well as turn objects into Koopas, but it's unclear if the objects were originally Koopas left as an ambush or not.

There would also be the Ninji from Super Mario World. Thwomps/Thwimps/Whomps would be difficult to beat as well, particularly the Whomps. A walking stone block that falls on things would be hard for the uruk-hai's slag swords to destroy.

If there were Albatosses in any game but SMB2, I'd be enthusiastic about their ability to drop Bob-ombs from altitude, but they've (AFAIK) never worked for Bowser.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2007-02-07 09:55pm

Albatoss appeared, working for Bowser, in the old cartoons (Super Mario Bros. Super Show). Probably can't call that canon, though if we're going to include Mouser and the other mini-bosses from the same game....

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2007-02-07 11:28pm

DEATH wrote:Pretty much, no numbers alone makes this all but pointless, never mind the lack of anything not based on game mechanics. (There is no Mario tv show. There was no movie or animated series. And I'm sticking to it :P )

Come on. The animated series were awesome!

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2007-02-08 12:17am

Drooling Iguana wrote:
DEATH wrote:Pretty much, no numbers alone makes this all but pointless, never mind the lack of anything not based on game mechanics. (There is no Mario tv show. There was no movie or animated series. And I'm sticking to it )
Come on. The animated series were awesome!

Sorry, I was confused with another one. I remember the real series know, and yeah I liked it as a kid

.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-02-08 12:47am

General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.

Mario can smash apart blocks of brick more than four times his volume with a single punch. He can jump over seven times his own height. He can pick up a creature that would mass almost a ton and throw it between ten and twenty metres.

Mario has picked up entire castles and kicked them beyond the horizon.

Case in point, I think the Koopa Army did quite well, all things considering.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-02-08 02:35am

General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.

Not in Super Mario RPG. Remember, he said enemies DON'T get killed by getting jumped on.

In Super Mario RPG, Mario's Super Jump does a set amount of damage, and he never faces more than three koopa's at a time. Further, his jump can send him several dozen feet or more into the air; likely a powerful impact to anyone.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-02-08 02:40am

Ford Prefect wrote:
General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.
Mario can smash apart blocks of brick more than four times his volume with a single punch. He can jump over seven times his own height. He can pick up a creature that would mass almost a ton and throw it between ten and twenty metres.

Mario has picked up entire castles and kicked them beyond the horizon.

Case in point, I think the Koopa Army did quite well, all things considering.

Greatest. Post. Ever.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-02-08 03:17am

Praxis wrote: Greatest. Post. Ever.

I didn't even mention his flying across the surface of suns and dodging solar flares simply because it didn't seen necessary.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-02-08 07:22am

Ford Prefect wrote:
Praxis wrote: Greatest. Post. Ever.
I didn't even mention his flying across the surface of suns and dodging solar flares simply because it didn't seen necessary.

He also destroyed fortifications by jumping up and down on them.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-02-08 09:42am

Praxis wrote:
General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.
Not in Super Mario RPG. Remember, he said enemies DON'T get killed by getting jumped on.

In Super Mario RPG, Mario's Super Jump does a set amount of damage, and he never faces more than three koopa's at a time. Further, his jump can send him several dozen feet or more into the air; likely a powerful impact to anyone.

Who said anything about jumping on them? I suggest rereading my post again.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2007-02-08 10:57am

General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.

Are you fucking kidding? Mario can shatter blocks of bricks half as large as he is with his bare hands, shoot multiple fireballs/second at least 100 feet, FLY, tame and ride carnivorous dinosaurs, and hold his breath for 300 seconds while strenuously swimming, and that's just his abilities from one game! Can Gandalf fly? Does Gimli have a dinosaur? I rest my case.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2007-02-08 10:59am

Aaaaand Ford beat me to the punch. Curse you Prefect! This is for the sin thread isn't it?

Well, I'm man enough to know when I've been outmaneuvered.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2007-02-08 11:02am

Way to fail at bandwidth theft, Sriad.

General Zod wrote:
Praxis wrote:
General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.
Not in Super Mario RPG. Remember, he said enemies DON'T get killed by getting jumped on.

In Super Mario RPG, Mario's Super Jump does a set amount of damage, and he never faces more than three koopa's at a time. Further, his jump can send him several dozen feet or more into the air; likely a powerful impact to anyone.
Who said anything about jumping on them? I suggest rereading my post again.

Then what, exactly, are you saying? You said they get wiped out by an "overweight plumber with no military experience or training." They point out that, no matter what he may look like, he is far more capable than your typical pudgy plumber from New York.

So what's the problem?

Loner · Post by **Loner** » 2007-02-08 02:27pm

Darth Raptor wrote:
General Zod wrote:Koopa's troops are capable of being wiped out by an overweight plumber with no military experience or training. He gets floored by Saruman's uruk's.
Mario is NOT just a "normal dude". For shame!

Damn straight!

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-02-08 04:49pm

General Zod wrote:Who said anything about jumping on them? I suggest rereading my post again.

And you've completely ignored that Mario is considerably more superhuman than you give him credit for. We are talking about a man so strong he can tear down castles with his bare (gloved) hands. We're talking a man so tough he falls thousands of feet and can survive with minor damage.

We are not talking an overweight plumber with no combat abilities. We're talking the modern equivalent of Heracles.