Why (nBSG) Starbuck's fucking annoying.

[Vympel]

1. Got Zak Adama killed by giving him a passing grade in Basic Flight, even though he had failed.

2. Lied about it to Commander Adama, and maintained that lie for the years she served under him on Galactica.

3. Strikes superior officers (Colonel Tigh, Lee Adama).

4. Refuses to train the nuggets because she has issues about her responsibility for Zak's death. Grow the fuck up, it's not all about you.

5. "You don't have a sniper, and I'm the best shot, in or out of the cockpit."

6. Goes to shoot Tom Zarek even after it's clear that Apollo has defused the situation.

7. Sleeps with Gaius Baltar and has the bad manners to call out Apollo's name not once, but twice, during.

8. She's a poet.

9. She also could've gone pro with Pyramid- knee injury killed that. But she's still good enough that she can give a professional player like Anders a run for his money

10. Comes up with the utterly moronic plan for Galactica to abandon the civilian fleet to return to Caprica to pick up the handful of survivors she encountered- all because of Anders. Throws military common sense and caution to the winds by proposing:

10.1 That it will take ~240 jumps for Galactica to return to Caprica. As Commander Adama noted, this was optimisitic nonsense, taking no account for navigational error that would increase with every jump.

10.2 Leaving a mere handful of Vipers and one Raptor, alone, to guard the civilian fleet. The silly idiot even says "and a Raptor!" when Roslin shakes her head in disbelief at the number being proposed.

10.3 That the fleet's only defence and thousands of people be risked in such a foolish operation in the first place.

11. Has the brilliant idea of going into the Hostage Situation at Cloud 9, where she is promptly recognized (due to Ellen Tigh's reaction), and, you know, because she's The Best Shot, pulls out two pistols akimbo and starts blasting away- missing pretty much everyone, getting two Marines killed- oh- and striking Apollo in the chest by accident.

12. Gets all emo and angsty about Anders to the point that she's perpetually hungover and dismissive of nugget pilots coming to her for advice. This results directly in the death of one nugget who she in the first part gives dismissive, undetailed advice to, and in the second part fobs off on another pilot because she was too hungover.

13. Even with all this, she has the nerve to lambast Kat, continuously, for becoming addicted to stims.

14. Sleeps with Apollo while with Anders- declares she loves him after he professes the same for her.

15. The morning after, abandons Apollo, wakes Anders, and marries him.

16. Cheats on Anders in the course of their marriage (or so Anders claims in "Eye of Jupiter").

17. Gets all emo and angsty about how terrible it was to be locked up with Leoben (boo fucking hoo, you didn't have it anywhere near as bad as others) on New Caprica for four months to the point that she sows dissension amongst the crew, casting aspersions that anyone who wasn't on New Caprica can't be trusted and dismissing the efforts of the Galactica crew to rescue them as small fry. Bonus points for blowing off a sweet little kid in the same episode who just wanted a hug from her savior/ surrogate mother- apologies later don't count.

17.1 Still all emo and angsty and blows Anders off because "she's in a different place right now".

17.2 Still all emo and angsty, she blows off Gaeta's truthful explanation of everything he did for the Resistance and doesn't even think to mention it to the Circle until she taunts Gaeta mere seconds before he's about to be tossed out an airlock. Only Tyrol's level head saves Gaeta's life.

17.3 Sleeps with Anders in what is clearly a purely casual thing- the marriage is clearly dysfunctional. But has the gall to:

17.4 Taunt Apollo that he's man enough to "try and frak another man's wife" but "not fight one" in "Unfinished Business"- you know, because Starbuck's not responsible for her choice to sleep with Apollo all those months ago, right?

17.5 Starts sleeping with Apollo again after this. When asked by Apollo to divorce Anders, refuses because ... "marriage is a sacrament." You can't make this shit up. The marriage doesn't fucking work, she cheats on him willy nilly- she classifies this as merely "bending the rules".

Seriously, can anyone like this sociopathic headcase? She's easily the most detestable character in the entire show.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

You know, Baltar's responsible for the genocide of the Human race, and I'd say the two are pretty much even, but at least Baltar seems to occasionally feel guilt over his actions, and he has it much worse than Starbuck.

But yes, Starbuck's a sociopathic whore. I'd trust a Viper to Marla Singer from Fight Club over her. Tyler Durden, too.

[fgalkin]

Hey, I got an idea. Put Starbuck, Baltar, and Tigh in a Raptor, send them on a mission somewhere, and blow them out of space. That is, if they don't all kill each other first.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gil Hamilton]

Hey, I got an idea. Put Starbuck, Baltar, and Tigh in a Raptor, send them on a mission somewhere, and blow them out of space. That is, if they don't all kill each other first.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I'd think Tigh would end up killing them both. There is no way Tigh wouldn't lead pipe the shit out of Baltar and rant about his eye if he got the chance and Kara would let him. Then it would be a matter of time before those two blew up.

[Plekhanov]

Hey, I got an idea. Put Starbuck, Baltar, and Tigh in a Raptor, send them on a mission somewhere, and blow them out of space. That is, if they don't all kill each other first.

Starbuck & Tigh would certainly be in the process of killing Baltar I suspect that they'd try to draw the death out quite a bit though.

[Galiv]

I'm very disappointed in what RDM has chosen to do with Starbuck. She really has no redeemable character traits left and your list certainly hammers that point home. Even her supposed greatest strength, her uberwarrior skills, just as often as not seem to deliver unpleasant results.

I find it hard to see how that character can realistically be redeemed in any real way. And what makes her situation worse is how well other seriously flawed characters such as Tigh and Baltar have been written.

[Vympel]

Baltar, unlike Starbuck, is a likeable character, even given his (unwitting) responsibility for the genocide of the human race.

The same goes for Tigh- who didn't cheer when he stopped Bulldog from killing Adama in "Hero" and snapped Bulldog out of it?

Starbuck's just a headcase with no redeemable characteristics. This season is where its really gotten out of hand. She's got no real nobility left-all the other characters do. The closest we ever came was her cutting her hair and snapping out of her morale-sapping malaise- which had to be brought on by Adama calling her an outright malcontent- and even then, she's still as destructive as ever to those close to her.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think that an eventual and gradual redemption for Starbuck is possible, and it's rather likely that this is the bottom of the pit for her in terms of character and it might go up and improve.

I was also really turned off by her "bending the rules" crap, but realised that we're probably supposed to be repulsed with her now.

[Stofsk]

It's very interesting that Baltar is arguably worse in terms of damage he has caused - the genocide of the Colonies, lying to Boomer about her test results, stabbing Roslin in the back and running for President, New Caprica - yet people still forgive him because he's 'likeable'.

Starbuck, on average, doesn't damage anyone but herself. There are a few cases where her choices have harmed another - Zak Adama, the Nugget in "Scar", Apollo and Anders - but the scope and scale of her choices don't affect humanity on a broader sense. The difference between her and Baltar, it seems, comes down to subjectivity. However, I have stopped liking her. Unless she rapidly improves and realises how much of a jerk she's been, I don't think I can really respect what they've done to her character. Most of what is on Vympel's list isn't at all terrible; it's just stuff like the rampant hostility and hypocrisy has come up this season that has made her character a tremendous jerk.

[Stark]

I think Baltar is both funny and tragic: he's one of the best characters in the series dramatically. I can even ignore that he clearly died in the mini and enjoy any scene with him in it.

Starbuck has been one of my biggest turnoffs with the series since day one. She's such an 'orrible cunt but the writers love her so she's magically the best at almost everything ever.

[Vympel]

It's very interesting that Baltar is arguably worse in terms of damage he has caused - the genocide of the Colonies, lying to Boomer about her test results, stabbing Roslin in the back and running for President, New Caprica - yet people still forgive him because he's 'likeable'.

Not forgive him- but understand and sympathize with him, in most case cases, anyway.

[Stark]

I think the number of nBSG fans who are clearly 'Baltar cultists' for the sole reason that he fucks women is pretty hilariously sad. But he's quite a successful character, with depth and crazy motivations and stuff. And he's got locks.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I think the worst part is that while both Baltar and Tigh were written extremely well as terrificly flawed people who screw up alot, they haven't realised just what a repulsive bitch they've written Starbuck into being.

[fgalkin]

I think the number of nBSG fans who are clearly 'Baltar cultists' for the sole reason that he fucks women is pretty hilariously sad. But he's quite a successful character, with depth and crazy motivations and stuff. And he's got locks.

I like him as a character. I don't like him as a person. If I ever met him, I'd punch him in the face for being such an egotistical fuck. Or something.

Starbuck, I simply can't stand. Think Morden vs Byron from B5.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stark]

I like him as a character. I don't like him as a person. If I ever met him, I'd punch him in the face for being such an egotistical fuck. Or something.

Yeah, he's a successful character because he can generate that kind of reaction - and it's intentional. Like others have said, Starbuck is an orrible unlikeable man-bitch, and I dont' think the writers know.

[Stofsk]

Those are all very good points guys. I actually would agree that Starbuck is a sociopathic whore - not because I don't like her, but because that's how she has acted - while Baltar is tragic and funny. Actually, Baltar reminds me of Greek tragedy. It's like he's the punching bag of the whole story, but he's the key to the resolution of it. I get the feeling that Baltar will be instrumental in some way to the end of the story.

[Vympel]

Baltar ... is he an Instrument Of God ... or just a tool?



I quite like the intro for Baltar on Battlestar Wiki ...

"with the affected humility of the truly arrogant", IIRC.

[Covenant]

I don't think we're supposed to like Starbuck, are we? Have we seen any evidence for it? She just seems sad and out of control, and any return to self control she had before the New Caprica incident she lost during it and is again just a terrible, damaged-goods person, but at least doesn't seem to be drunk as often. Just angry, and dumb. I think her hubris is a great part of her character, in the original Greek Tragedy sense of the word.

Anyway, if I'm wrong and the writers want us to actually like her, then she's poorly written. If she's supposed to be the antihero for the anti-BSG that they seem to be making, then I think it's interesting and different. I don't always want to like the central character, even if I can understand them.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Even if she is meant to be disliked, Starbuck is written poorly. Why?

When Baltar was terrible, the other characters knew he was and reacted realistically. When Starbuck's terrible... There's angst with Apollo. Whup.

[neoolong]

I think part of it is that Starbuck doesn't really get called on her shit anymore. Anders let's her fuck around and Lee is pussy-whipped.

At least with Baltar, even if he is fucking two hot women, he's still getting tortured and was on his way to being given back to the humans to be spaced.

Even Tigh, for all his crap, has had his eye gouged out, and killed his own wife.

They may be deeply flawed characters, but at least some of them get their comeuppance in some way, making it possible to feel some sympathy for them.

[Crom]

We had a round of "We hate Starbuck" discussion going around my house. It was then that we realized, during a comparison to Baltar, that the real tragedy of Baltar is that he should be the hero!

Baltar is an unparalleled genius! He's practically on par with Starbuck's rampant Mary Sue abilities, if it's scientific he probably knows it. He's practically a super-hero. If anyone should be at the forefront of humanity leading them to Earth it should have been Baltar.

But despite all that he has going for him he barely manages to be anything more than an insane shadow of a human being. And I find that to be really interesting.

[Stofsk]

That's true. Roslin AKA President Airlock, is a goddamn religious nutbar and who has all the predictable moral qualities of one. She's also a baby snatcher, and her reasons for doing that don't even appear rational or humane.

Baltar, on the other hand, has done more work in the practical sense of the word than Roslin in finding earth. Baltar's failing is that he's pathologically self-obsessed. That is enough to prevent him from being the hero. Take away that failing, and Baltar could be elevated to the fleet's saviour. Hell, he's already got the whole Jesus Christ Superstar look going.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Hell, he's already got the whole Jesus Christ Superstar look going.

Of course, he'd be the first one to start singing "Too Much Heaven On Their Minds".

Actually, Jesus Christ Superstar based on NBSG would be awesome in the extreme. Mary McDonnell has won a Tony, hasn't she?

Actually, anything NBSG and musical would automatically get 5/5 from me.

[size=0]what a worthless content-free post[/size]

[Vympel]

That's true. Roslin AKA President Airlock, is a goddamn religious nutbar and who has all the predictable moral qualities of one. She's also a baby snatcher, and her reasons for doing that don't even appear rational or humane.

Her reaons for doing it were rational if not "humane". Like she said, the Cylons went to a lot of trouble for this baby to be conceived. Making them think it no longer existed by taking her out of Athena's hands and making everyone believe she was dead (there still being Cylons in the fleet) was adviseable at that point in time- Athena had not proven she could be trusted.

[Covenant]

We had a round of "We hate Starbuck" discussion going around my house. It was then that we realized, during a comparison to Baltar, that the real tragedy of Baltar is that he should be the hero!

Baltar is an unparalleled genius! He's practically on par with Starbuck's rampant Mary Sue abilities, if it's scientific he probably knows it. He's practically a super-hero. If anyone should be at the forefront of humanity leading them to Earth it should have been Baltar.

But despite all that he has going for him he barely manages to be anything more than an insane shadow of a human being. And I find that to be really interesting.

It is interesting! I know Baltar does get a lot of weepy scenes, but sometimes he shows amazing depth of character... and then you realize "Oh damn, this is fucking BALTAR." He's hilarious, and terrifying, and amazing. I had this discussion with my family before, where I said that if being a good man got Baltar love an adoration, he would be the best of men. He would nail himself to the cross if that is what people would love him for, forever, and moreso if he got to bang hot chicks and eat well after they pulled him down. Baltar is self serving to the extreme of not even thinking about what he wants. He just does things, on instinct and impulse, that nobody else can, but only when his life is in danger. He's kinda like Evil Wimpier Rodney McKay. Gaeta's comment about his capacity for self-preservation was great.

Starbuck is just hateful. But I enjoy her, because I know she's hateful. It's like, if in Poe's fake Anti-Star Wars movie, they made Luke a kid who purposefully fucked things up for people just because he was a deviant little shit. I think that's an interesting character role to give someone, since at some points Starbuck is what you need, and in every other point you just want to strangle her with razorwire. It's easier to make a character that striking by making them hated than loved, but nBSG's decision to make everyone pretty despicable in one way or another (few people aside) certainly is remarkable in it's rarity. It's not really praise, I'm just glad it's something different. I consider the 'launch title' of Hard Sci-Fi shows. Not good, but looking for what works. Let's all hope for less Shakeycam in the dialogue scenes though.